[Gestalt] Spell caster from the dead

[Gwazi Magnum]

There's a 5-10% chance this character will ever actually see play as a pre-warning since the only Gestalt group I'm in has a DM whose going on a very heavy 'non-magic' (for the players) thing.

This is mostly for fun to do with some free time to make with and if in the real off chance the magic restriction is gone I have a new character to put forward.

(If you want to get angry at the non-magic thing, please do it in one my other threads where it was mentioned).

Anyway's, the idea here is that it's a spell caster who focuses in both Arcane and Divine Magic. I also want it to be spontaneous because that's just how I roll. I enjoy the added flexibility of casting my spells by not having to prepare them in advance.

Yes I relise this mechanically knocks me down a tier, but it's a gameplay preference. But also since it does knock me down a tier means I'm more likely to be a character others enjoy playing with rather than one so powerful it steals all the spotlight from them.

So for this, I was thinking my Arcane class should be Sorcerer or Generic Spell Caster (Intelligence) from Unearthed Arcana.

While for Divine I either go Generic Spell Caster (Divine) or Cloistered Cleric with the Spontaneous variant. Main Domains I'm thinking of the would be Magic, Travel or Trickery (Knowledge automatic, but otherwise would also be a considered one).

Then for the whole 'From the dead' part, it's an idea I got from another d&d group I'm in where I plan to start off my guy with the character having already died in the past (Magic Spell/Ritual gone wrong or something) but was ressurected by the ressurection spell so he'd start off 1 level lower (But cause of it I gain more exp so I'd catch up).

So with this I could of been a Venerable Grey Elf and get +5 INT, +3 WIS & +3 CHA with no penalties and then be a random race who will more than likely add onto my physical scores so I'm not a frail spell caster.

Does this all seem like a sound idea or am I shooting myself in the foot somehow? Also, what classes would you suggest for the Arcane and Divine sides of the spell casting?

[Edit] Additional Notes:

My rolled scores for level 1 are : 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 12
Other cool concepts I'm thinking are (Not, these are NOT optimized concepts and I will be the first to admit that. But I am wondering if there is a way to make it work).

1. Spell caster in heavy armor
Abuse of the Still Spell metamagic feat. If there's a way to apply this without raising the spell level it would be most appreciated.

2. Fights with a weapon
Obviously sub-par next to a fire ball. But what if my person was skilled with a blade and sword? I was thinking maybe with the Knowledge Devotion feat? I mean the Knowledge Skills will probably be class skills any ways.

Note, the point of these two is part of the whole ressurection thing. Say my guy came back as an Orc, Bugbear, Dwarf etc. No one's expecting him to be a spell caster. So he may give the illusion he's not by wearing heavy armor and wielding a sword, looking like a typical mercenary, fighter etc. But when **** get's down the spells go flying.

[Jack_Simth]

Does this all seem like a sound idea or am I shooting myself in the foot somehow? Also, what classes would you suggest for the Arcane and Divine sides of the spell casting?
Nice enough, although you've got a case of MAD, there, and you've gt an action economy issue. You'd get a feasible amount of Charisma synergy playing a Sorcerer//Favoured Soul (Wis is still slightly needed as it sets save DC's on the Favored Soul side; the easy way around that is to fill he Favoured Soul bit with stuff that doesn't need saves to be effective - buffs, dispells, utility, that kind of thing - and use your Sorcerer side for the save or X stuff)

How optimized do you want? ... sadly, that's a question it's really hard to give a solid answer to. Hmm.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Nice enough, although you've got a case of MAD, there, and you've gt an action economy issue. You'd get a feasible amount of Charisma synergy playing a Sorcerer//Favoured Soul (Wis is still slightly needed as it sets save DC's on the Favored Soul side; the easy way around that is to fill he Favoured Soul bit with stuff that doesn't need saves to be effective - buffs, dispells, utility, that kind of thing - and use your Sorcerer side for the save or X stuff)

How optimized do you want? ... sadly, that's a question it's really hard to give a solid answer to. Hmm.

More Optimized the better generally.

But I don't want it so optimized that it either

a) Becomes massive number crunching and is no longer fun.
Similiar reasoning for wanting spontaneous casting, it's weaker but less to track and more fun to use.

b) It doesn't cause the character to overshadow other characters.

I should of also noted, I rolled high for this character so the ability scores at level 1 are: 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 12.

[Vaz]

A requiem bardic sage could be a good arcane caster, you get good divinations, and the ability to affect the undead. You could optimize the support abilities via DFI, say, and then take Archivist as your 'optimized', cherry picking spelllist for druid and cleric spells to become a 'Azilla' (perhaps dipping binder for a more social front and going anima mage Divine adaptation to make you more social and also persist a couple of spells a day without DMM nightstick stacking abuse).

So Archivist 9/Binder 1/anima mage 10//bard 20

Needs Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, Dragnfire Inspiration, words of creation, improved binding, extend, persist, and one free feat if human.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A requiem bardic sage could be a good arcane caster, you get good divinations, and the ability to affect the undead. You could optimize the support abilities via DFI, say, and then take Archivist as your 'optimized', cherry picking spelllist for druid and cleric spells to become a 'Azilla' (perhaps dipping binder for a more social front and going anima mage Divine adaptation to make you more social and also persist a couple of spells a day without DMM nightstick stacking abuse).

So Archivist 9/Binder 1/anima mage 10//bard 20

Needs Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, Dragnfire Inspiration, words of creation, improved binding, extend, persist, and one free feat if human.

This seems very music based though rather than spell based.

[Jack_Simth]

More Optimized the better generally.

But I don't want it so optimized that it either

a) Becomes massive number crunching and is no longer fun.
Similiar reasoning for wanting spontaneous casting, it's weaker but less to track and more fun to use.

b) It doesn't cause the character to overshadow other characters.

I should of also noted, I rolled high for this character so the ability scores at level 1 are: 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 12.
Hmmm... which makes things tricky; we'd need to know the other players' characters to be sure of B.

If I give you the generic gestalt advice, it basically says you're making a mistake on two or three big aspects, though. Still, for what it's worth:

1) Be aware of power curves. Most casters are comparatively weak at lower levels, and quickly become powerful at higher levels. Most melee characters are comparatively strong at lower levels, and lose ground at higher levels. Skill-based characters tend to be somewhere between at all levels. If you're starting at low levels, you'll want a mix of two different power curves.

2) Be aware of the action economy. You may have twice as many options in Gestalt, but you still only have so many things you can do. You generally want to think in terms of an 'active' side and a 'passive' side. Yes, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper - all those spells! - but you're still limited to your standard, swift, and move actions. For the most part, you'd be better served replacing one of those with something that has a lot of passive (requires no action) benefits - rogue for sneak attack, monk for all good saves, paladin for Grace and hit points, et cetera.

3) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Monk//Paladin may look great on paper... but you need Strength for to-hit, Wis and Dex for AC, Charisma for the various paladin abilities, Con for hit points, and at least a little Int for skill points. Meanwhile, that Wilder//Paladin just needs Charisma and Con (he hits with powers).

4) Watch out for class features that cause each other problems. A Wizard//Fighter isn't the best of choices - as the heavy armor that the fighter loves severely hampers Wizard spells. The Archivist//Fighter, on the other hand, is a divine caster without that problem. Likewise, a Psion//Fighter also avoids that problem.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hmmm... which makes things tricky; we'd need to know the other players' characters to be sure of B.

If I give you the generic gestalt advice, it basically says you're making a mistake on two or three big aspects, though. Still, for what it's worth:

1) Be aware of power curves. Most casters are comparatively weak at lower levels, and quickly become powerful at higher levels. Most melee characters are comparatively strong at lower levels, and lose ground at higher levels. Skill-based characters tend to be somewhere between at all levels. If you're starting at low levels, you'll want a mix of two different power curves.

2) Be aware of the action economy. You may have twice as many options in Gestalt, but you still only have so many things you can do. You generally want to think in terms of an 'active' side and a 'passive' side. Yes, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper - all those spells! - but you're still limited to your standard, swift, and move actions. For the most part, you'd be better served replacing one of those with something that has a lot of passive (requires no action) benefits - rogue for sneak attack, monk for all good saves, paladin for Grace and hit points, et cetera.

3) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Monk//Paladin may look great on paper... but you need Strength for to-hit, Wis and Dex for AC, Charisma for the various paladin abilities, Con for hit points, and at least a little Int for skill points. Meanwhile, that Wilder//Paladin just needs Charisma and Con (he hits with powers).

4) Watch out for class features that cause each other problems. A Wizard//Fighter isn't the best of choices - as the heavy armor that the fighter loves severely hampers Wizard spells. The Archivist//Fighter, on the other hand, is a divine caster without that problem. Likewise, a Psion//Fighter also avoids that problem.

Currently others are all Martial like classes which is mostly combinations involving Rogue or Ranger.
However, this is due to the DM's whole 'Players have no magic rule' which is why I stated above there's only a 5-10% chance this character will see play. If that chance does happen since the DM dropped the non-magic stuff the players will most likely have completely different character concepts, builds or ideas.

1) This is one of the reasons I'm looking for help to keep the guy powerful but not game breaking.

2) True, but being spontaneous I have limited spells per day too so I'm not like a Wizard/Cleric but a Sorcerer/Cleric with spells known like a Sorcerer. Real goal being to be spontaneous but be relevant in both arcane/damaging spells and things like healing/buffing. Plus any additional useful ones like fly, invisibility etc.

3) With this build I'm expecting I'll only need Intelligence and Wisdom, Charisma too 'if' I go the sorcerer route.
Con and Dex is nice, but I figured with the high rolls I got I can just leave Strength at the 12, make both my Con and Dex be 15 and leave the 16, 16 and 17 for the mental scores.

4) What about Still Spell though? That makes armor no longer an issue.

[Jack_Simth]

4) What about Still Spell though? That makes armor no longer an issue.It also means you can't use most of your top tier of spells, however.