Single-gender outsiders?

[Jon_Dahl]

I was just thinking which outsiders can only be of a certain gender and which can be both male or female? Which have no gender and thus are unable to breed half-celestials/fiends?

Erinyes only have females.
Succubi might have incubi counterparts with identical stats?
Bearded devils must be male. Right?
Lemures have no gender. It's not possible.
What about bralani? And many, many other outsiders?

[Azernak0]

Bearded devils must be male. Right?


You haven't met my mother-in-law. :smallbiggrin:

[Rhynn]

Mariliths are always (outwardly) female.

IIRC, the AD&D 2E Planescape supplement on fiends did say that demons/tanar'ri can change their gender and/or are all and no genders at once, but that this doesn't actually affect their looks much (except, one presumes, in the case of succubi/incubi, but they're using separate shape-changing abilities).

[Alleran]

You haven't met my mother-in-law. :smallbiggrin:
Mothers-in-law are universally devils.

Unless they're not, in which case they're just waiting for you to make a mistake, after which they will pounce on you with no mercy.

[Steward]

I was just thinking which outsiders can only be of a certain gender and which can be both male or female? Which have no gender and thus are unable to breed half-celestials/fiends?

Erinyes only have females.
Succubi might have incubi counterparts with identical stats?
Bearded devils must be male. Right?
Lemures have no gender. It's not possible.
What about bralani? And many, many other outsiders?

There are male erinyes in some of the other books though, and their monster manual entry refers to them as "resembling very comely women or men".

I'm not sure if the books really say that most outsiders can only be of a certain gender though. It's a reasonable inference (like with bearded devils) but even there you have to remember that these are magical creatures and their beards aren't human facial hair but simply poisonous magical weapons that grow out of their face. Who knows if some of them are biologically femal (whatever that even means for extraplanar horrors)?

[CaladanMoonblad]

Some outsider entries do not have a biological oriented creation method.

For instance, Lemures and Dretches are frontline troops for LE and CE planar forces.

Lemures, are traditionally from Ancient Roman superstition, and were malignant spirits, or twisted souls. The D&D version for instance, in the Planes section of the DMG alludes to the souls of mortals who rather than face their evil god's judgment instead agree to a higher devil's contract to join the armies of hell, with room for advancement (ie, be transformed from Lemure to something more powerful if they prove themselves).

The idea is, that the thoughts of the Lemure is still the soul of the original mortal (in the D&D cosmology). It seems that in D&D, soulstuff is transformable, and biology (such as gender) has little to do with anything. Even take the Reincarnate spell; your character dies, oh noes, the druid used Reincarnate and now your new body is random! So that Torg the Barbarian is now a female Goblin in need of a Polymorph Any spell...

So with just the above Lemure example... I'd be leery about ascribing such Material biological designations to extra-planar beings in the D&D universe. I would suggest, that gender is meaningless to Outsiders, and that "through magic" any celestial or infernal could contribute to offspring with Material beings. In any event, these are plot devices for character backgrounds; just because your daddy is a bearded devil doesn't mean "he" hasn't been transformed by an Arch-Duke into something greater (or lesser).

[Chronos]

Just because human females can't grow beards, doesn't mean that the same is true for all species. In a great many settings, for instance, female dwarves can have beards. Since a bearded devil is even less closely related to humans than dwarves are, it wouldn't be surprising at all to learn that female bearded devils can also have beards.

[Uncle Pine]

I was just thinking which outsiders can only be of a certain gender and which can be both male or female? Which have no gender and thus are unable to breed half-celestials/fiends?

I'm not an expert of outsiders' gender, but I think that any creature with acces to polymorph or similar could easily breed with any creature it change itself to. For example, I think gelatinous cubes are genderless, but you can easily make a half red dragon gelatinous cube.

[some guy]

I think a lot of neutral ousiders, like modrons and inevitables, have no gender. I usually rule that most outsiders have either "gender: yes" or "gender: no".

[Eldan]

You run into weird questions of how you define sex and gender anyway. They don't normally reproduce sexually, so that's out. Their appearances are mutual, and their thoughts are alien.

[Jon_Dahl]

There are male erinyes in some of the other books though, and their monster manual entry refers to them as "resembling very comely women or men".


Ahhhh, how could I miss that...:smallfrown:

[Clistenes]

I was just thinking which outsiders can only be of a certain gender and which can be both male or female? Which have no gender and thus are unable to breed half-celestials/fiends?

Succubi might have incubi counterparts with identical stats?

Dragon Magazine 353's article about Malcanthet gives stats for incubi, which are rapists rather than seducers. They are soldiers, not schemers.

When a demon lord has to subtly seduce an heretosexual female they probably ask a succubus to take male shape for the job, so in a way the succubi count both as male and female.

[CIDE]

Valkyrie (ToB version) can only be female.

Edit: Both types of Valkyries are female only. My bad.

[CRtwenty]

I believe gender is rather fluid when it comes to outsiders. I seem to remember a little encounter in a Planescape adventure with a former Balor who failed a Demon Prince and got demoted to Marilith. The new Marilith was upset because as a Balor it had identified as male and was suddenly in a feminine body. PCs were able to exploit this during encounters with it.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've read in various places (not sure that any of them carry any RAW weight, but RAW doesn't have a huge amount to say about reproduction for many exotic monster types, frustratingly) that outsider fertility is based on their celestial/infernal/abyssal magical natures, not based on physical traits. Thus, if they want to reproduce (and have some degree of sentience/free will, so probably excluding the lowest of the low fiends) then they can probably manage it.

I believe someone already noted that most outsiders don't reproduce on their own, but only through interaction with other mortal creatures. There is probably some fluff somewhere, maybe with some crunch, that specifies the details of how outsiders are generated by the planes they live on or by the will of the deities or some such. The Fiendish Codex I and II are good places to look for this kind of stuff.

From, um, was it 2e, maybe 1e as well, there were two types of half-fiends that were specifically called out as being their own race. There might be 3e versions, too. I believe that it was:

Mortal Father+Succubus Mother= Cambion (which seemed to always be male)
Mortal Mother + Demon Father (Glabrezu?) = Alu-Fiend (which seemed to always be female)

or vice versa. It was also specified that the mortal mother in the second pairing ALWAYS died in childbirth, from what I recall (long time ago:smallconfused:).

In any case, it's an interesting question, but I am inclined to think that, like fey, outsiders only have babies when they want to, and probably aren't limited by things like...plumbing.:smallwink:

[shadow_archmagi]

Just because human females can't grow beards

Not universally true

[ericp65]

You run into weird questions of how you define sex and gender anyway. They don't normally reproduce sexually, so that's out. Their appearances are mutual, and their thoughts are alien.

That's a good point. Sex refers to biology, while gender refers to social role.

[Elderand]

I believe someone already noted that most outsiders don't reproduce on their own, but only through interaction with other mortal creatures. There is probably some fluff somewhere, maybe with some crunch, that specifies the details of how outsiders are generated by the planes they live on or by the will of the deities or some such. The Fiendish Codex I and II are good places to look for this kind of stuff.

This tend to be setting specific but for general dnd, for devils at least it goes something like this.

Evil soul get acquired, tortured for a while, turn into a lemure. If lemure does well, it gets promoted and physicly transform into a more powerful devil. Rince and repeat.

In that sense at least devil do not appear to "reproduce" they turn soul into more devils. At least for the vast majority, there are devils who are the children of other devil but how that came to be and if it mean sexual reproduction at all or if it's a funky magical process on yet another soul to make it transform in an unusual way I do not know.

[Flickerdart]

Succubi might have incubi counterparts with identical stats?
Incubi are given completely different stats in one of the Dragons.

[Slipperychicken]

Succubi might have incubi counterparts with identical stats?

It doesn't matter much. They can Change Shape into any Small or Medium Humanoid. Most DM's just aren't cruel/creative enough to use male forms.


It's one thing for a straight guy to wake up in bed next to a smoking-hot Succubus. But waking up next to a fat hairy dude who stinks of sweat? That's true evil right there.

[Elderand]

pfff, make them wake up next to a kid. THAT is true evil.

[Clistenes]

This tend to be setting specific but for general dnd, for devils at least it goes something like this.

Evil soul get acquired, tortured for a while, turn into a lemure. If lemure does well, it gets promoted and physicly transform into a more powerful devil. Rince and repeat.

In that sense at least devil do not appear to "reproduce" they turn soul into more devils. At least for the vast majority, there are devils who are the children of other devil but how that came to be and if it mean sexual reproduction at all or if it's a funky magical process on yet another soul to make it transform in an unusual way I do not know.

Even if non-succubus, non-archfiends demons and devils could breed with each other, the spawn wouldn't probably survive for long or would be treated just like a lemure or larva.

I think succubus are the exception because 1.-they are strongly associated with sex, and there is a natural link between sex and reproduction, hence whatever power shaped them included functional reproductive systems "for thematic reasons", and 2.-they are used to restrain themselves and pretend that they are non-evil mortals for long periods of time, so they are the demons more likely to resist the impulse to eat the baby just after it's born and for a period of time long enough to find somebody who raises it.

Pleasure devils have been shaped to be perfect concubines for archdevils, so reproduction is basically another function that was give to them (some archdevils want spawn, I guess).

Other archfiends able to breed, like Pale Night, are just special.

[Slipperychicken]

pfff, make them wake up next to a kid. THAT is true evil.

Extra Evil: the "kid" (disguised Succubus) tells Mr-Guard-Man and all the town's strongest protectors about the "secret exercises" the kind hero-man showed him in his tavern room. But, the kid claims, they're super secret, and the hero (according to the "kid") said the kid will disappear if he tattles on his secret. Later, the Succubus teleports away in secret, with the whole town thinking the PC just murdered an orphan for exposing him as a pedophile.


I always feel like they're underplayed, considering they're immortal beings of pure, ultimate Evil.. but THIS is the truly messed-up stuff Demons would do to people in their spare time. Not just laying Paladins and doling out a Negative Level or two, but mercilessly tearing their lives apart piece-by-piece until there's nothing left.

[karkus]

Bearded devils must be male. Right?


You haven't met my mother-in-law. :smallbiggrin:

You guys mind if I add this to my signature? :smallwink:

[Azernak0]

You guys mind if I add this to my signature? :smallwink:

Go right ahead.

[ksbsnowowl]

Extra Evil: the "kid" (disguised Succubus) tells Mr-Guard-Man and all the town's strongest protectors about the "secret exercises" the kind hero-man showed him in his tavern room. But, the kid claims, they're super secret, and the hero (according to the "kid") said the kid will disappear if he tattles on his secret. Later, the Succubus teleports away in secret, with the whole town thinking the PC just murdered an orphan for exposing him as a pedophile.


I always feel like they're underplayed, considering they're immortal beings of pure, ultimate Evil.. but THIS is the truly messed-up stuff Demons would do to people in their spare time. Not just laying Paladins and doling out a Negative Level or two, but mercilessly tearing their lives apart piece-by-piece until there's nothing left.
Absolutely stealing this the next time a PC gets drunk and friendly with a tavern wench.

[Slipperychicken]

Absolutely stealing this the next time a PC gets drunk and friendly with a tavern wench.

Owch. Sounds a bit disproportionate, no?


But if Succubi teach you one thing as a D&D adventurer, it's to always have the Paladin scan any woman you touch :smalleek:

[ksbsnowowl]

Owch. Sounds a bit disproportionate, no?


It's a demon. What better way to spread chaos than to chose a random drunkard?

[Flickerdart]

It's a demon. What better way to spread chaos than to chose a random drunkard?
Choosing a random drunkard will affect the lives of maybe five or ten people, marginally. Choosing the king's heir might sow discord throughout the entire kingdom. As a being of pure and deliberate chaos and evil, any succubus worth her Intelligence score will choose the latter.

[Clistenes]

Extra Evil: the "kid" (disguised Succubus) tells Mr-Guard-Man and all the town's strongest protectors about the "secret exercises" the kind hero-man showed him in his tavern room. But, the kid claims, they're super secret, and the hero (according to the "kid") said the kid will disappear if he tattles on his secret. Later, the Succubus teleports away in secret, with the whole town thinking the PC just murdered an orphan for exposing him as a pedophile.


I always feel like they're underplayed, considering they're immortal beings of pure, ultimate Evil.. but THIS is the truly messed-up stuff Demons would do to people in their spare time. Not just laying Paladins and doling out a Negative Level or two, but mercilessly tearing their lives apart piece-by-piece until there's nothing left.

You would think that, by now, the good and neutral churches (and the lawful evil ones, too), would have developed protocols for that kind of thing. You know, things based on spells like Dispel Magic, Dispel Evil, Discern Lie, Zone of Truth, Detect Magic, Sense Thougths, Detect Alignment, Dominate Monster (followed by ordering the creature to tell the truth), Dismissal, Banishment (if it disappears, it wasn't a real kid)...etc.

I mean, succubi and clerics/paladins/other religion-based classes have both existed for centuries and even thousand of years, the succubi have probably tried that scheme a million times and by now the high-ups of the church probably think when hearing about the issue "another succubus pretending to be a kid, I guess".

A more effective way to use its power would probably be to pretend that she's a Doppleganger courtesan and offer her customers to satisfy all their kinks, slowly and subtly encouraging them until fully corrupting them:
"There is nothing wrong if you feel attracted to your brother's wife, he will never know that you are bedding somebody who looks just like her".
"There isn't nothing wrong with it, I look like a sixteen years old, and those are legal in this kingdom".
"No, I swear this shape isn't like that of a fourteen girl, I can show you how a real fourteen naked girl looks if you want it"
"Have you ever considered doing it with a Catfolk girl? That's hot!"
"What if I take the shape of a Succubus?"
"A Succubus with your sister-in-law's face?"
"A Pixie would be really kinky, don't you think"
"What about a mermaid? or a lamia?"
"What about your cousin?"
"You know what would be really, really, really kinky? to do it with while I look like your real, blood-related sister! Come on! It's not that bad, she's seventeen and it's just a game, it's not as if I really were her."
"What about a halfling girl"
"I assure you, this is the face of a halfling girl, not of a nine years old child".

And them she could subtly pull the strings so he really gets the chance to make real some of the less offensive fantasies. That way, when she mind-controls a real kid and sends it to the priest/paladin's bed pretending to be her roleplaying a kid, and arrange for him to be discovered, the inquiry will reveal his perversions and give credibility to the idea that he's a child abuser.

[Cirrylius]

According to Planescape:

-Demons can be male, female, hermaphroditic, or neuter, depending on personal preference. It takes them time and effort to change sex, though, so they don't do it willy-nilly, and as they get older they tend to stick to the same sex/gender. I'm pretty sure all Demons can reproduce sexually, but I can't remember the details.

-Devils can be male, female, or neuter (I can't remember if they can be hermaphrodites or not). They only change sex at promotion/demotion, though, and all Devils are at one point or another shuffled through all sexes, to better understand how the world works. One sex (females, I thiiiink?) Is sterile, so Devil's can't breed with each other.

-Yugoloths are universally hermaphroditic, and their gender is a matter of personal choice. Yugoloths can breed with each other, even across caste; IIRC the children take the caste of the less powerful 'Loth. The exceptions are Nycaloths (maybe Nycaloth pairs), who always have a litter of Nycaloths, and Ultroloth pairs, who always give birth to Arcanoloths. Yugoloths tend to discourage breeding, though, as the child isn't generally as skilled, talented, or ambitious as a Petitioner-raised 'Loth, as it never had to claw its way up the ranks.

-Modrons and Slaadi are genderless.

[ksbsnowowl]

Choosing a random drunkard will affect the lives of maybe five or ten people, marginally. Choosing the king's heir might sow discord throughout the entire kingdom. As a being of pure and deliberate chaos and evil, any succubus worth her Intelligence score will choose the latter.

Why not do both? Especially when the PC is a renowned hero of 14th level. Make the hero a bad guy, and then any NPC support and good will can dry up.

All that said, I've had someone get drunk and make advances toward someone once in the game, so it's not very common.

[Arbane]

Why not do both? Especially when the PC is a renowned hero of 14th level. Make the hero a bad guy, and then any NPC support and good will can dry up.

All that said, I've had someone get drunk and make advances toward someone once in the game, so it's not very common.

Is it really a good idea to give your gang of murderhobos ANOTHER good reason never to interact with NPCs?

[Flickerdart]

Make the hero a bad guy, and then any NPC support and good will can dry up.
Why? There are as many Evil NPCs as Good ones. :smallwink:

[Sylthia]

With magic being readily available, physical sex is not much of a limitation for breeding purposes.

[Coidzor]

Extra Evil: the "kid" (disguised Succubus) tells Mr-Guard-Man and all the town's strongest protectors about the "secret exercises" the kind hero-man showed him in his tavern room. But, the kid claims, they're super secret, and the hero (according to the "kid") said the kid will disappear if he tattles on his secret. Later, the Succubus teleports away in secret, with the whole town thinking the PC just murdered an orphan for exposing him as a pedophile.


I always feel like they're underplayed, considering they're immortal beings of pure, ultimate Evil.. but THIS is the truly messed-up stuff Demons would do to people in their spare time. Not just laying Paladins and doling out a Negative Level or two, but mercilessly tearing their lives apart piece-by-piece until there's nothing left.

BEWARE WOMEN FOR THEY COME FROM HELL. (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/11/25/counter-monkey-beware-the-woman-for-they-come-from-hell/)

So apparently they're pretty overplayed in other circles.


Why? There are as many Evil NPCs as Good ones. :smallwink:

But Team Evil isn't really... a team...


You would think that, by now, the good and neutral churches (and the lawful evil ones, too), would have developed protocols for that kind of thing. You know, things based on spells like Dispel Magic, Dispel Evil, Discern Lie, Zone of Truth, Detect Magic, Sense Thougths, Detect Alignment, Dominate Monster (followed by ordering the creature to tell the truth), Dismissal, Banishment (if it disappears, it wasn't a real kid)...etc.

I mean, succubi and clerics/paladins/other religion-based classes have both existed for centuries and even thousand of years, the succubi have probably tried that scheme a million times and by now the high-ups of the church probably think when hearing about the issue "another succubus pretending to be a kid, I guess".

A more effective way to use its power would probably be to pretend that she's a Doppleganger courtesan and offer her customers to satisfy all their kinks, slowly and subtly encouraging them until fully corrupting them:
"There is nothing wrong if you feel attracted to your brother's wife, he will never know that you are bedding somebody who looks just like her".
"There isn't nothing wrong with it, I look like a sixteen years old, and those are legal in this kingdom".
"No, I swear this shape isn't like that of a fourteen girl, I can show you how a real fourteen naked girl looks if you want it"
"Have you ever considered doing it with a Catfolk girl? That's hot!"
"What if I take the shape of a Succubus?"
"A Succubus with your sister-in-law's face?"
"A Pixie would be really kinky, don't you think"
"What about a mermaid? or a lamia?"
"What about your cousin?"
"You know what would be really, really, really kinky? to do it with while I look like your real, blood-related sister! Come on! It's not that bad, she's seventeen and it's just a game, it's not as if I really were her."
"What about a halfling girl"
"I assure you, this is the face of a halfling girl, not of a nine years old child".

And them she could subtly pull the strings so he really gets the chance to make real some of the less offensive fantasies. That way, when she mind-controls a real kid and sends it to the priest/paladin's bed pretending to be her roleplaying a kid, and arrange for him to be discovered, the inquiry will reveal his perversions and give credibility to the idea that he's a child abuser.

That's creepy as hell and who has time for that in a game that's not already Book of Erotic Fantasy sexcapades in which case they'd already know about and be taking precautions against this kind of thing anyway?

[Flickerdart]

But Team Evil isn't really... a team...

Once they find out about how good you are in bed (because all succubi kiss and tell) I'm sure you'll find some that are willing to come along for the ride. :smallwink:

[Mastikator]

Choosing a random drunkard will affect the lives of maybe five or ten people, marginally. Choosing the king's heir might sow discord throughout the entire kingdom. As a being of pure and deliberate chaos and evil, any succubus worth her Intelligence score will choose the latter.

A king might be have competent staff of wizards and clerics to keep supernatural threats off his back, in addition to his many highly trained kingsguards to keep natural threats off his back.

The higher the gain the higher the risk of death for the Succubi.

Also, succubi have life draining touch, it may go after easy targets for food.

[Clistenes]

That's creepy as hell and who has time for that in a game that's not already Book of Erotic Fantasy sexcapades in which case they'd already know about and be taking precautions against this kind of thing anyway?

Well, we are speaking of literal demons of perversion of corruption, so of course they would do -and induce people to do -creepy things.

I'm just telling how a succubus could slowly corrupt her lovers, making them used to weird stuff and inserting really BAD things in between the merely weird kinks. Kind of how people become desensitized to any kind of porn and eventually accept anything as normal (think of hentai). Once that's done, make the victim take a step too far, and make sure he's discovered so you ruin his life.

They wouldn't have to show it at all, only the end result, the NPC guy in a cell explaining how he fell.

But you are right, that scheme is too obvious and the succubus would be discovered. She probably could do better offering less exotic things, like pretending to be a human madame who offers girls to rich clients, deals with drugs, helps people to cheat their spouses, maybe does a bit of (sex)slave trade, etc. If inothing in her business look supernatural clients won't think to ask for a spellcaster to check her.