DM Advice, losing paladinhood

[Jael]

I'm writing a game in which all the character wakes up with amnesia. I want the paladin to have lost his paladinhood by the mean of trickery by a evil adversary. Something that forced him to do something evil but for a greater good.The major plot of the quest will be finding what the pally did and who's the evil bastard that made him go it...

Where I need help is a good moral dilemma that the paladin must've made (out of trickery)... any ideas?

the one I got for now, is rather simple, The pally killed an innocent child that bear a non curable magical disease, that would have spread to all the population...

[Gavinfoxx]

Why would they fall if they did that sort of thing?

Have you talked to the player? Does he want to play a Warrior in all but name?

[Amnestic]

So you're going to write a plot that forces a Paladin to lose their powers?

My advice: Don't. It'll annoy your Paladin player who feels they're being targeted. The amnesia bit would be especially bad.

Besides that you could argue that she's not "willingly" committing an evil act if she's tricked into doing it, and thus wouldn't fall. And any Paladin should be grabbing a Phylactery of Faithfulness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness) ASAP in order to prevent situations such as these regardless.


the one I got for now, is rather simple, The pally killed an innocent child that bear a non curable magical disease, that would have spread to all the population...

Would your player's Paladin have actually done that, or are you telling them that's what their character would do?

[Gavinfoxx]

I second the idea of completely abandoning this plan entirely...

[Averis Vol]

How about Innocent folk were put under an illusionary guise of some evil creatures that have run rampant through the land, along with Nystuls magical aura to make them appear evil to his Paladar.

Or maybe he went on a quest for his clergy that ultimately led to a gate opening that summoned an Abyssal entity strong enough to rampage through the countryside, and at the sight of it he dropped to his knees in hopelessness and accepted defeat.

Mayhaps the person who made him fall was a dread witch, and owing to their nature, s(he) made him lose faith in his god as she utterly destroyed his fear immunity.

The thing with making a paladin fall is that it's cruel, and if your player hasn't consented to having fallen, I would warn you not to try this path, as paladins don't need another hit to their effectiveness. That being said, a paladin won't just fall for having to make a hard choice, he has to willing fail in his duties or commit a heinously evil act.

[Raineh Daze]

I second the idea of dropping this if you haven't got the player's permission, because otherwise you're turning them into what's basically an NPC class with no special abilities or anything, all for something they didn't even get a choice over. :smallannoyed:

[Telonius]

If the campaign is supposed to start with the characters waking up with amnesia, it could work. But if you're planning for them to play for a while, then all of a sudden, bam, sorry, lost all your powers and you don't know why? That would be the worst sort of railroading.

[eggynack]

If the player is alright with being utterly useless in combat for the sake of your nifty plot hooks, you can go right ahead. You shouldn't proceed at all unless he wants to do it though, and you should probably collaborate on a back story that will bring about the effect you desire. If your player doesn't want to play a paladin that has fallen for some nifty plot reason, then don't make him play a paladin that has fallen. That's just a bit of a jerk move.

[Jon_Dahl]

I would do it like this:
"Ok, you start with a suboptimal character, but to make it up to you, I'll give you extra gold to buy better gear. Later on, you can make your character optimal again, but you can keep the gear. Ok?"

If you take something, give something too.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't go any farther along this line of thought until you have the player's permission. And not just "yeah, OK, if that's what I've got to do," but "yes, that sounds like a fun plot hook." If you get anything less than full, enthusiastic approval, don't do it.

Also, are you similarly nerfing other characters? Because if not, it's going to feel extra-crappy for the poor paladin.

[Amnestic]

If the campaign is supposed to start with the characters waking up with amnesia, it could work. But if you're planning for them to play for a while, then all of a sudden, bam, sorry, lost all your powers and you don't know why? That would be the worst sort of railroading.

I'd still be kind of annoyed. It'd be like me rolling a Druid and then at the start of the campaign I'm told "You taught Druidic to someone just before the campaign started, so you lose everything until you atone."

To which my response would be "Then why let me roll a druid in the first place, if you were so set on my not playing one?"

[ThreeDSix]

I'd recommend replacing the paladin abilities with different ones of similar power, then he won't be underpowered and you can give him an extra plot hook of how he got those powers... perhaps he has a demonic patron fuelling him in the hopes that his fall will be permanent?

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, which paladin fix are you using? Pathfinder? Crusader? This fix? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730)

Which specific homebrew version of the Code are you using? Have you talked to your player about coming up with a custom code? The default Paladin code is terrible.

You should read that link... ESPECIALLY regarding the killing a child bit, ie, Serenity's quote.

[Jael]

If the campaign is supposed to start with the characters waking up with amnesia, it could work. But if you're planning for them to play for a while, then all of a sudden, bam, sorry, lost all your powers and you don't know why? That would be the worst sort of railroading.

Yes its start that way, and I won't abandon my idea. Besides my players are way more interested in a good story than the power of their characters. The lost of paladinhood won't be permanent as their first quest will result in his atonement. Also I will offset his lost of power with something else I will figure later, like some bonus fighter feats or d12s HD, but really it doesn't mather.

[Hyena]

No. No, no, no. Bad idea, man. No. Bad. Bad plot hook. Don't do it. Only Those DMs do it. Don't be That DM.

[Jael]

I'd still be kind of annoyed. It'd be like me rolling a Druid and then at the start of the campaign I'm told "You taught Druidic to someone just before the campaign started, so you lose everything until you atone."

To which my response would be "Then why let me roll a druid in the first place, if you were so set on my not playing one?"

Yes I understand, but that's the whole storyline. They used to be 11-12th level character, they did something really evil, but for the greater good. They'll learn about a far village with a fountain that can erase memory. Since they cannot stand living with they're evil action, they set to go to the village, they force the gate (without killing anybody, maybe using pacifist spell like sleep) and drink from the fountain. They wake up, (at level 4,cause i dont want the to start at level 1) and dont remember anything... but the Pally, has no power. Why? and then, the quest will start...
They will have some hints througt the game, like flashbacks, and that they have way more powerful equiment than they should have. Maybe some people will recognize them, either for the good deeds they done or for the atrocity that made them disapear

[Man on Fire]

I'm writing a game in which all the character wakes up with amnesia. I want the paladin to have lost his paladinhood by the mean of trickery by a evil adversary. Something that forced him to do something evil but for a greater good.The major plot of the quest will be finding what the pally did and who's the evil bastard that made him go it...

Where I need help is a good moral dilemma that the paladin must've made (out of trickery)... any ideas?

the one I got for now, is rather simple, The pally killed an innocent child that bear a non curable magical disease, that would have spread to all the population...

Dude, a honest advice about forcing Paladins to fall


DON'T!

People play the class to have fun, you know? Falling is punishment for being a moron and playing it like a psychopath, making paladin fall without hi player having anything to say about it is one of the worst things GM can do to the player, player has no reason to not just go and get killed and make new character in that situation.

[Averis Vol]

Sounds to me like his player doesn't mind, so instead of the random hate speech without knowing his side, there should probably be more constructive posts here.

@OP; has your player come up with a backstory yet? knowing more about his character would go a long way to knowing his temperament and what evil act he could be pushed to doing.

[Jael]

No they don't have a backstory, they'll have to find it themselves trhout out the play.

What I really need, and why I posted this thread, it's a common paladin moral dilemma, imposed by a evil enemy. Something the joker may do to batman or something like this. I would like an original idea...more than my idea of a plague bearing innocent

[Averis Vol]

If you just want a moral dilemma, I can give you a few, just know that that normally isn't enough to make a paladin fall.

With that out there, how about........

1) Superior officer in his clergy commands him and several of the other warriors of their sect to hold the gates against a mob of people trying to break into the mayors manor. It has been known for years that the mayor is a corrupt bastard, but it has never been anything worth getting up in arms about. Recently though, He has imposed a major tax upon the common folk that was essentially the straw that broke the camels back. Though he understands the mayor is a bad man, the low wealth that the peasants tithe to the church isn't enough to keep it up and running, so the rest comes from the questionably dirty dealings of the mayor. The paladin is a noble figure in the city, and seen as a paragon of strength and virtue, but now faced with doing his duty or protecting his life from the mass of poorly armed peasants, he had to make the choice whether to cut them down as they bore arms to try and overthrow the mayor, or let them tear him to pieces in their frustrated rage. Seeing that his life still had purpose he drew his blade and slayed any who dared to oppose him, ending the day with the blood of dozens of innocents upon his blade.

is something like that what you are looking for?

[Dissonance]

Since you are starting everyone with amnesia you can actually do something really interesting with the fall.

For example:
The Paladin goes crazy, wheather from poison, truama, or anything else that could derange a person and goes on a murdering spree within the city. If that isn't enough to make him fall (like him being deranged and having only limited control over his actions) He "woke up" some time later surrounded by the bodies of innocents. In his horror he renounced his paladin hood with something along the lines of "I'm not worthy" or something. Later he learned of a fountian that could make memories dissapear. As this event still haunted him he set out for it with the rest of the party. Upon drinking it The paladin forgets the event and his renunciation is void, allowing him to regain his paladin status if he ever seeks it.

[Abaddona]

Maybe something along the lines: someone important (parent, best friend, lover etc.) to said paladin gets kidnapped. Paladin tries to rescue said person and discovers some sort of organisation/cult corrupting officials in the city (and dominating those who try to oppose them). When paladin finally faces leaders of this evil organisations he discovers that his important person kinda joined theirs kidnappers, kinda likes his/her new position and aspires to become one of the leaders. Now paladin is in shock - if he wants to fight - then he must face magicaly dominated citizens/guards (generally innocent people) - if he leaves then corrupt officials might send after him ignorant of whole situation guards (possibly trying to dispose them). So said paladin fallen because he slayed innocent people (fallen into rage after betrayal) or simply lost his faith due to betrayal and losing reputation (organisation presented him to citizens as a criminal, send wanted posters, framed him for serious crime, maybe put a curse on him which makes hi alignment evil for detection purposes etc.).

[PersonMan]

If you just want a moral dilemma, I can give you a few, just know that that normally isn't enough to make a paladin fall.

With that out there, how about........

1) Superior officer in his clergy [...]

Problem: nonlethal damage exists.

[mabriss lethe]

Is the player dead set on playing a paladin? Because you do have some wiggle room here, if you want it.

As a GM, I'd honestly recommend my player build a Crusader instead. I mean, really, really recommend it. You can have all of the same flavor and backstory as the fallen paladin. The people he meets will regard him with the same revulsion, regardless. He's a celebrated paragon of virtue who publicly committed an unthinkable atrocity.

As a Crusader, he'll retain all of his abilities. Those abilities will also scale much better into higher level combat. Now, as he unravels his personal mystery and comes to terms with it he begins atonement for his wrongdoing.

If the player wishes, at this point his character can rejoin his faith as a full member of the clergy, picking up a few levels of Cleric. After the cleric levels, open up the option for him to PrC into Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) or a refluffed variant of Ruby Knight Vindicator. (You may need to replace a few of the RKVs sneaky abilities to make it more paladin-like.)

The other reason I'm suggesting it: It will be much easier on you to build the atrocity. You don't have to look for loopholes in the paladin's code to trip him up. The party's evil deed now won't need to have any special criteria to live up to. It also puts your "paladin" player in the same starting place as the rest of the players.

[Rockphed]

Dude, a honest advice about forcing Paladins to fall


DON'T!

People play the class to have fun, you know? Falling is punishment for being a moron and playing it like a psychopath, making paladin fall without hi player having anything to say about it is one of the worst things GM can do to the player, player has no reason to not just go and get killed and make new character in that situation.

Alternatively, do not make a single character lose their powers. Either make everyone roll up characters with the same number of paladin levels(or some minimum) and they all know about it before hand, and are seeking redemption, or don't try this sort of nonsense.

If you want, you could have them all start with the hitpoints, base-attack bonus, and skills of whatever level characters you want them to roll up, but only the special abilities and spells of a first level character. Give them their abilities back at a fairly fast, even, pace. That does, however, punish spell-casters more than fighter-types.

[Elric VIII]

No they don't have a backstory, they'll have to find it themselves trhout out the play.

What I really need, and why I posted this thread, it's a common paladin moral dilemma, imposed by a evil enemy. Something the joker may do to batman or something like this. I would like an original idea...more than my idea of a plague bearing innocent

Evil Sorcerer bluffs the paladin into thinking that the "insert holy person" that he has dominated is actually evil and the Paladin kills him. Or some variant of that.

Although I do stress making sure that your player is aware of this loss of power when he starts off. If you want a suggestion on something to give him, may I recommend adding Crusader initiating (but not other class features) to his Paladin? So he keeps the martial prowess but not the mystical stuff as a result of his falling.

[Threadnaught]

If you just want a moral dilemma, I can give you a few, just know that that normally isn't enough to make a paladin fall.

With that out there, how about........

*snip*

is something like that what you are looking for?

How about the opposite?

The Paladin could've instead of doing what's Lawful and Evil, done what would be Chaotic and Good, by allowing the peasants to pass without fighting.
Though I read somewhere about how Good>Lawful when it comes to how Paladins should act, so to make the Paladin fall for doing what's Good if it isn't Lawful would be a mistake iirc.

When it comes to Amnesia plots, you could have a history where the character in question was a complete *snip*, turned goody two shoes. Or they could just turn out to be exactly the sort of person they were before the proverbial bump on the head... Wait, why is it proverbial? It's alsways caused by a bump n the head, people who write Amnesia plots are so unimaginative.
My DM has given my Druid Amnesia from an attack to his head, he's said something about some characters who'll tell me my history. I'm just gonna go all Lawful Stupid on him until he makes me Lawful Neutral so I can dip Monk at 2nd level, along with everything else I plan to do, this should make my AC skyrocket.

[Averis Vol]

Problem: nonlethal damage exists.


How about the opposite?

The Paladin could've instead of doing what's Lawful and Evil, done what would be Chaotic and Good, by allowing the peasants to pass without fighting.
Though I read somewhere about how Good>Lawful when it comes to how Paladins should act, so to make the Paladin fall for doing what's Good if it isn't Lawful would be a mistake iirc.

When it comes to Amnesia plots, you could have a history where the character in question was a complete bastard, turned goody two shoes. Or they could just turn out to be exactly the sort of person they were before the proverbial bump on the head... Wait, why is it proverbial? It's alsways caused by a bump n the head, people who write Amnesia plots are so unimaginative.
My DM has given my Druid Amnesia from an attack to his head, he's said something about some characters who'll tell me my history. I'm just gonna go all Lawful Stupid on him until he makes me Lawful Neutral so I can dip Monk at 2nd level, along with everything else I plan to do, this should make my AC skyrocket.

Both probable, but to personman; maybe the use of lethal force was the icing on the cake that made him fall. I don't know honestly, I just threw up a scenario.

[Slipperychicken]

Agreeing that it's a terrible idea.

If your player absolutely loves this idea and can't wait to do this, then go for it. If not, then burn the plans, mix the ashes with holy water, and cast Purify Food and Drink on the mixture.

[zlefin]

hmm; maybe something about cowardice or fleeing justice? Maybe it's not the act itself that caused the fall; but the giving up and wiping his memory rather than face it and atone for it.

[Ytaker]

How about slaying some powerful magical being that linked their life force to that of a village?

A powerful necromancer who had slain thousands, raising hordes of undead to fill the land. The heroes slew his armies and, with the aid of his home village, found his secret lair, defeated his traps, and found him. They overpowered him. As the paladin raised his blade.

"Wait" Cried out the necromancer. "I cast a modified lich spell. My home village- they are linked to me. Slay me and they die. And I know you foolish good people cannot tolerate slaying innocents."

The paladin shook his head. "Wrong." And cut the necromancer in twain, ending his slaughters.

You could have them discover the results of their adventures. People would know them, some hail them, some boo them. They would see hordes of skeletons destroyed by whatever distinctive weapons they had. They might even see the village of corpses that they made. He might have to atone by saving the one survivor of the village from some trap the necromancer had made.

[Pickford]

I'm writing a game in which all the character wakes up with amnesia. I want the paladin to have lost his paladinhood by the mean of trickery by a evil adversary. Something that forced him to do something evil but for a greater good.The major plot of the quest will be finding what the pally did and who's the evil bastard that made him go it...

Where I need help is a good moral dilemma that the paladin must've made (out of trickery)... any ideas?

the one I got for now, is rather simple, The pally killed an innocent child that bear a non curable magical disease, that would have spread to all the population...

That kind of fall can't be atoned for so you should probably consider something else.

[TuggyNE]

That kind of fall can't be atoned for so you should probably consider something else.

What? There is no such thing. There's a scale of misdeeds from minor actions that won't cause a Paladin to fall (irrelevant here), actions that will cause a Paladin to fall unintentionally, and deliberates actions that trigger a fall. Even the latter can be atoned for, though it costs the caster of atonement XP and requires intercession with the deity. (Usually also a quest to be sure of sincerity.)


A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

[chainer1216]

no, its DMs like you that make paladins impossible to play, they have enough going against them that they don't need DMs forcing them to fall just because they can, its a **** move done by DMs who dont know how to make up a good story on they're own.

[Arbane]

no, its DMs like you that make paladins impossible to play, they have enough going against them that they don't need DMs forcing them to fall just because they can, its a **** move done by DMs who dont know how to make up a good story on they're own.

You know, I always hear about paladins falling (to which my usual reply is 'just because they CAN, doesn't mean they MUST'), but I can't remember the last time I heard of a Cleric getting excommunicated by their god.

[Slipperychicken]

You know, I always hear about paladins falling (to which my usual reply is 'just because they CAN, doesn't mean they MUST'), but I can't remember the last time I heard of a Cleric getting excommunicated by their god.

Presumably, Clerics are supposed to have their own codes of conduct and be extremely pious, but no-one cared enough to write any down, and few DMs want to write codes of conduct for whole pantheons of gods. Theoretically, a Cleric could have even more rigid code than a Paladin.


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

But everybody said "meh" and just sort of allowed Good Clerics to do whatever they wanted as long as it didn't involve genocide, desecrating holy stuff, or going soft on demons. Which is strange because they're supposed to have a much closer relationship with gods than Paladins (Clerics can chat with gods and call down literal Miracles, while Paladins get a 1st level spell at will, a strict employment contract, and a free horse).

[TuggyNE]

(Clerics can chat with gods and call down literal Miracles, while Paladins get a 1st level spell at will, a strict employment contract, and a free horse).

You're leaving out the full BAB and the pokeball summoning.

[CRtwenty]

I've always required Clerics in my games to tithe a certain amount of their rewards and time to advance their deities goals. General Good aligned Clerics usually set up centers to help the poor, spend some gold setting up wards in the local graveyard to make it harder for necromancers to raise the dead there, etc. But it's much less straightforward then the Paladin code.

I've never had an interest in making Paladins fall. All it does is gimp the Paladin more and make him a drain on the rest of the party. If they do fall, it's generally because the PC wanted it to happen. I usually give them plenty of warning when they stray into gray alignment territory.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm... if you are going with a Paladin, a Fall, and Amnesia?

Another interesting route to think of is that your character is Lawful Good. They know they had paladin gear and divine powers, but don't anymore.

What they don't know is that they were a Chaotic Evil paladin variant. Put on a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and the powers they are seeking to regain are actually 180 away from their current alignment.

Which can lead to an eventual plot where the character discovers who he really was. And is allowed to make a choice about who he wanted to be. Allow his Atonement to work either way. He can fully renounce his old self and become a standard PHB Paladin, or that he could embrace his old ways, decide the ways of Awful Stupid alignment isn't for him, and end up as a Paladin of Slaughter once more.

[CRtwenty]

Which can lead to an eventual plot where the character discovers who he really was. And is allowed to make a choice about who he wanted to be. Allow his Atonement to work either way. He can fully renounce his old self and become a standard PHB Paladin, or that he could embrace his old ways, decide the ways of Awful Stupid alignment isn't for him, and end up as a Paladin of Slaughter once more.

That sounds interesting. But it doesn't change the fact that the Paladin starts out as an underpowered character in this game solely because he decided to play a class with a fall mechanic.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe. But I figured the player was cool with it. When I DM I typically tell my players what's going to be the starting frame of the game so they can give me any concerns before I get too far into it. Always better options than trying to set up some moral fallacy that is supposed to be a No-Win scenario.

[Azernak0]

IF the Paladin can gets their power back quickly, say before level 2 or 3, than sure but it is still lame that "Hey, you are not quite what you thought you are."
The difference between a level 1 Paladin and a level 1 Warrior is basically nil so they won't be hurt by not having their one Smite Evil or not being able to Detect Evil.

If you intend to use it as foreshadowing, kind of a "something is totally wrong here", it might work from a story telling aspect. But again, let them be a Paladin again in quick order.

[Deophaun]

Moral dilemmas are tough in that you don't really know the value system of the character or the player. And while people may play RPGs for the story, they play them to be a part of the story, not to have one read to them. So knowing what the player or character would do is important. So, avoid the moral dilemma, and let's go a different route...

Yes, standard disclaimer of make sure the player is ok with this.

Your party of level 11 PCs was not, in fact, tricked into doing something evil. Instead, they were tricked into believing they were responsible for an atrocity. Think big, think horrible. A deadly and painful plague, the zombification of all the children in a kingdom, etc. The party didn't do it, but they are made to believe they are responsible (for instance; they broke an "artifact" that had a silly superstition around it planted by the BBEG for this purpose), and they experienced the aftermath.

As a result of that, they want to forget what happened. Your paladin doesn't fall from this, officially. However, he is a broken man, and doesn't feel the divine connection that still exists, so he believes he has been abandoned for his "transgression." At this point, it's functionally the same as a player who just doesn't use smite evil, turning, or other paladin powers, and voluntarily fails Will saves.

A low level demon or devil who was a witness to this, such as an imp, sees the vulnerable state of the paladin's faith, and so sees an opportunity for promotion. It approaches the paladin as an agent of evil, and offers a deal: For a single drop of the paladin's blood, he will help him forget. The paladin, at first, rejects the offer, even tries to slay the creature (but a flying invisible creature is tough for an unprepared mundane to handle). But the imp is persistent, and does its best to exacerbate the paladin's suffering. Eventually, through attrition of his last remaining stores of pride and will, the paladin accepts. For willfully entering a pact with a fiend, the paladin officially falls. The imp leads the paladin and his compatriots to the fountain, and then disappears to claim his reward.

[eggynack]

Is the party at level 11 so that the paladin can immediately go blackguard, thus becoming more powerful than the paladin would have been otherwise? That actually sounds pretty awesome.

[Krobar]

If that was MY paladin he would immediately "see the light", and within find darkness. He would swear an oath to Asmodeus and become a Blackguard as soon as possible.

He would also kill any PCs that tried to interfere.

[eggynack]

If that was MY paladin he would immediately "see the light", and within find darkness. He would swear an oath to Asmodeus and become a Blackguard as soon as possible.

He would also kill any PCs that tried to interfere.
Quite so. It's not like he remembers anything about his life that would cause him to be good, and his past levels are apparently a lost cause. Blackguards are way cooler anyway. They get there spells twice as fast as a paladin does, and I think their spells might actually be better. Summon monster is good, even if the specific monsters are evil.

[Clistenes]

no, its DMs like you that make paladins impossible to play, they have enough going against them that they don't need DMs forcing them to fall just because they can, its a **** move done by DMs who dont know how to make up a good story on they're own.


You know, I always hear about paladins falling (to which my usual reply is 'just because they CAN, doesn't mean they MUST'), but I can't remember the last time I heard of a Cleric getting excommunicated by their god.

A wizard could lose his spellbook during a dungeon crawl and become a commoner until he buys a new spellbook and some scrolls, but nobody does that.

I think some DM believe that all paladins should fall, that paladins are all about falling and atoning. I never play a paladin when the DM is one of those guys, it's plain boring.


If that was MY paladin he would immediately "see the light", and within find darkness. He would swear an oath to Asmodeus and become a Blackguard as soon as possible.

He would also kill any PCs that tried to interfere.

Or he could retrain as a Wild Defender/Cleric, and play the character as if he were still a paladin.

[Pickford]

What? There is no such thing. There's a scale of misdeeds from minor actions that won't cause a Paladin to fall (irrelevant here), actions that will cause a Paladin to fall unintentionally, and deliberates actions that trigger a fall. Even the latter can be atoned for, though it costs the caster of atonement XP and requires intercession with the deity. (Usually also a quest to be sure of sincerity.)

If the Paladin does not have genuine regret for their actions (i.e. they would not do them again in the same circumstances) they cannot be atoned.

So yeah, there is such a thing.

[Krobar]

...

Or he could retrain as a Wild Defender/Cleric, and play the character as if he were still a paladin.

Why would I want to do that, when I have the perfect opportunity to play an absolutely EVIL SOB put right into my hands?

[Clistenes]

Why would I want to do that, when I have the perfect opportunity to play an absolutely EVIL SOB put right into my hands?

Because he wanted to play a Holy Warrior? He chose to play a paladin, after all.

Another option would be to take a level of Crusader. He would have an 6th level as initiator even before retraining his fallen paladin levels.

Or, if the DM doesn't allow retraining, just commit suicide when he learns what he did, and roll a new character.

[Krobar]

Because he wanted to play a Holy Warrior? He chose to play a paladin, after all.

Another option would be to take a level of Crusader. He would have an 6th level as initiator even before retraining his fallen paladin levels.

Or, if the DM doesn't allow retraining, just commit suicide when he learns what he did, and roll a new character.

Well, I mentioned what *I* would do if it was MY Paladin and the DM railroaded him like the DM who started this thread plans to do. HIS player is free to do whatever HE wants.

I may hijack the plot with my railroaded character by doing something totally unexpected (and probably not planned for), but I won't have my fallen Paladin commit suicide out of remorse just so I can roll up a new character. That's weak.

[eggynack]

I may hijack the plot with my railroaded character by doing something totally unexpected (and probably not planned for), but I won't have my fallen Paladin commit suicide out of remorse just so I can roll up a new character. That's weak.
Suicide to re-roll is usually pretty lame, but it could be funny if the character has a plot hook attached to him. Blackguards are super sweet though.

[Clistenes]

Well, I mentioned what *I* would do if it was MY Paladin and the DM railroaded him like the DM who started this thread plans to do. HIS player is free to do whatever HE wants.

I may hijack the plot with my railroaded character by doing something totally unexpected (and probably not planned for), but I won't have my fallen Paladin commit suicide out of remorse just so I can roll up a new character. That's weak.

Well, if you aren't allowed to play your own character (and that's what has happened, the DM, not the players, has made the characters decide to do something, effectively making them NPCs), then you could argue that's no longer your character, but I'm probably just being tantrum-y.

I mean, maybe I think my character would have gone to the authorities (civil or religious), confessed his crime and ask for punishment, instead of drinking from that amnesia well. Or let the other characters do whatever horrible thing they did while he dies fighting whatever it was they were trying to stop. Or directly go to his religious superior and ask for atonement, without going through the amnesia well first.

[Draconi Redfir]

I think I’ll take a different route then a majority of the people who posted in this thread and try to actually help you with the thing you asked about rather then ignoring it and trying to convince you not to do it.


what i could see as happening, is that the evil mastermind either is, or has some kind of illusionist at his disposal, this illusionist was able to make a small village of innocent people appear to be something horribly evil, a necromantic army warcamp, a bastion of weak demons gathering together to construct a portal to the lower worlds to summon forth an army to use this place as a foothold while they begin to take out the land. The evil mastermind, under the guise of an authority figure, told the Paladin and possibly the rest of his group about this place, and they rushed into the unknowingly disguised village weapons drawn and minds confused. They proceeded to slaughter every man women and child, any attacks from the illusionary enemies feeling like true blows either due to the strength of the illusion, or due to the mastermind flinging magical spells at them from a distance as he watches the butchery.

As the last civilian falls, the illusion breaks, and the Paladin’s powers are revoked as he realizes what he has done. or perhaps they fell when he slew his first civilian, and the power of the illusion made it appear as if he still had them during the rest of the battle, the weak civilians falling easy even without any smite evil attacks he may have used.

from there it's just a matter of moving the group to their starting position and figuring out how to give them amnesia.

[TuggyNE]

If the Paladin does not have genuine regret for their actions (i.e. they would not do them again in the same circumstances) they cannot be atoned.

So yeah, there is such a thing.

There is an attitude that can't be atoned for (because it's an attitude that specifically does not seek atonement), but there is no act that can't be atoned for. Does that make sense?

[Sutremaine]

Your player may be okay with it now, but what happens if they decide part-way through the story that playing a Fighter with no bonus feats isn't any fun?

[big teej]

Yes I understand, but that's the whole storyline. They used to be 11-12th level character, they did something really evil, but for the greater good. They'll learn about a far village with a fountain that can erase memory. Since they cannot stand living with they're evil action, they set to go to the village, they force the gate (without killing anybody, maybe using pacifist spell like sleep) and drink from the fountain. They wake up, (at level 4,cause i dont want the to start at level 1) and dont remember anything... but the Pally, has no power. Why? and then, the quest will start...
They will have some hints througt the game, like flashbacks, and that they have way more powerful equiment than they should have. Maybe some people will recognize them, either for the good deeds they done or for the atrocity that made them disapear

wait a minute (and forgive me if someone beat me too it, I felt the need to post as soon as this dawned on me)

if they have amnesia... would he even remember being a paladin?

You can't miss what you never knew you had... if the paladin fell and doesn't remember anything, as far as the character is concerned he was never a fething paladin to begin with.

just have him play a fighter with a lot of suspiciously religious gear.


EDIT:
now that I've actually read through the thread all the way...


You know, I always hear about paladins falling (to which my usual reply is 'just because they CAN, doesn't mean they MUST'), but I can't remember the last time I heard of a Cleric getting excommunicated by their god.

*raises hand* personally, I'm equally vigiliant about clerics as I am paladins....

and then it occurred to me that in all my time as a dungeon master and/or a player.

*I* play all the clerics. except our one cleric of the Elemental Earth... who, as a diety, doesn't really have a whole lot of rules.


speaking more generally when it comes to codes that are not mechanically defined (like the Knight)

I operate under the premise of "you have to do something out there enough for me to actually notice while running a game"

[ArcturusV]

Good point. I had presumed there was specific gear that might mark him out. I mean if you're a fighter who just happens to be using a Holy Avenger Longsword, someone is probably going to go, "you know... you were probably a Paladin. Otherwise why else would you be using that otherwise craptastic weapon?"

Though probably also less mechanical things and more setting things. If Paladins belong to some Order, you probably have some sort of heraldic device on your armor/shield which someone with appropriate knowledge can point out is a Paladin thing.

Amnesia Guy runs into a villager with a rank in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) or Knowledge (Religion) who goes, "Oh, you're from the Order of the Sacred Orchid. What brings a Paladin to my Library?"

[GreenETC]

I have a better idea of how to go about this. If you have managed to get your Paladin's approval, how about you tackle this problem from the reverse. The Paladin was EVIL to begin with, but after witnessing whatever the other PCs were forced to take part in, perhaps even having a hand in it himself, he goes out of his way to bring them to the Fountain of Plot Relevance Forgetfulness so that they can forget the awful deeds they have committed. In doing so, he goes so far from his alignment that his God strikes him down, removing all of his powers, and even causing him to lose his memories.

This way, you can slowly introduce the Paladin's backstory and the evil he has committed, as well as the act of redemption he made, and you then get a tasty moral dilemma in the form of the Paladin having to decide if he wishes to stay on his path of evil, or if the choices and friends he has made are enough for him to feel personally redeemed. If you want, make a special Anti-Blackguard that progresses as a Paladin at the speed of Blackguard, or even open up Gray Guard to him.

[Duke of Urrel]

If you're concerned about player consent, what about letting the player meet a non-player ex-paladin with all the amnesia and moral turmoil? Paladins help paladins in need, right? So you can make an "amnesiac ex-paladin" your plot hook without having to take total command over any player's recent past.

[big teej]

If you're concerned about player consent, what about letting the player meet a non-player ex-paladin with all the amnesia and moral turmoil? Paladins help paladins in need, right? So you can make an "amnesiac ex-paladin" your plot hook without having to take total command over any player's recent past.

this has my vote. I think... after that whole "y'know... don't" thing.

[Draconi Redfir]

that would completely remove any point or personal attachment to the quest, it wouldn't be HIS quest, it would be the quest of some random NPC that doesn't even have anything to do with the guy.

Just... if you aren't going to give the OP the advice or help he's actually looking for, why are you posting at all?

Also, from what I’ve gathered from his posts, he can't just "not do it" because the Entire Point of the Game is to figure out what exactly they did that was so evil, and how to fix it. you may as well say Roy Greenhilt should leave the gates and Xykon to a Wizard who is "more capable".


So the paladin doesn't have his divine powers, so what? he still has all his martial and non-magical abilities, AND his divine gear, Use the opportunity! Learn from it! Grow stronger as a person and a paladin, by better understanding how to do your job without the perks it grants you! don't encourage the guy to throw away his entire plot because Paladin’s are "sub par", instead Help him with it! He's looking for a trick that could have been used on the paladin to get him to commit an evil act and cause him to fall!

Give him that! Instead of a billion reasons why NOT to do it, give him what he is actually looking for!

[big teej]

that would completely remove any point or personal attachment to the quest, it wouldn't be HIS quest, it would be the quest of some random NPC that doesn't even have anything to do with the guy.

Just... if you aren't going to give the OP the advice or help he's actually looking for, why are you posting at all?

Also, from what I’ve gathered from his posts, he can't just "not do it" because the Entire Point of the Game is to figure out what exactly they did that was so evil, and how to fix it. you may as well say Roy Greenhilt should leave the gates and Xykon to a Wizard who is "more capable".


So the paladin doesn't have his divine powers, so what? he still has all his martial and non-magical abilities, AND his divine gear, Use the opportunity! Learn from it! Grow stronger as a person and a paladin, by better understanding how to do your job without the perks it grants you! don't encourage the guy to throw away his entire plot because Paladin’s are "sub par", instead Help him with it! He's looking for a trick that could have been used on the paladin to get him to commit an evil act and cause him to fall!

Give him that! Instead of a billion reasons why NOT to do it, give him what he is actually looking for!


interesting.... ye've caught me out.

I'm normally in the same position as the OP "teej, don't do that, it's a terrible idea"

I would then ignore them, and it'd work beautifully.

*epic guilt*

*ahem*

so while I am forced to agree with your premise, people should be trying to help the OP beyond informing him it's likely a fething bad idea.

I must grant the opposition that, for most groups, this is a really bad fething idea.

so, for the OP

you know your players and what they enjoy better than we, the playgrounders, ever will.

and if you know they will love this idea, then don't let anybody tell you different.

however as one Dungeon Master to another, I warn you that this will usually be a terrible idea.

[Quietus]

@the OP - I just want you to consider, for a moment, how you would feel if you sat down at a table with a character in front of you. Something you'd potentially put an hour or two of work into, to make it work mechanically. You're looking forward to smiting some orcs, and soon getting your fancy shiny horse.

And then the DM tells you, the first time you try to do something, "It doesn't work."

Personally? I'd be absolutely enraged by that. Whether I know what's going on or not, I'd either be pissed off that I was being DM fiated into having no powers and not knowing why, or that I was given no say in what happened to my character, the ONE point in this entire game world that I actually had control over. Now that's been taken away.

If you went to the player beforehand and said, "Hey man, I have this idea for a plot, but it involves your paladin not having his powers for the first session or two", that's one thing. Assuming they're okay with that, of course. If you spring it on them the first session... they would be totally justified in walking away from the table. This game is supposed to be fun; if I come to the table with a Paladin, I'm expecting to have fun playing a Paladin. Not a mopey ex-Paladin with all the prowess of a Warrior.

[Draconi Redfir]

Preeety sure the guy knows that he's going to be fallen from the start. i beleive the OP brought up that he's okay with it at least once or twice.

[Coidzor]

Just... if you aren't going to give the OP the advice or help he's actually looking for, why are you posting at all?


Because sometimes you've got to be Gygax and ask someone "Are you sure?" before they do something inadvisable.

[Draconi Redfir]

Because sometimes you've got to be Gygax and ask someone "Are you sure?" before they do something inadvisable.

Asking "are you sure" when fifty other people have already asked the exact same question is rather pointless. and annoying.

[Coidzor]

Asking "are you sure" when fifty other people have already asked the exact same question is rather pointless. and annoying.

Usually that can go to show just how bad of an idea it is or how communication in the OP broke down and one should probably go ahead and edit it.

But, in any case, you did ask. Even if it was rhetorical. :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

I've been on the receiving end of a similar plot before. It is not fun to not be able to contribute to what is happening at the table. You're going to go through with it, I can tell. Just remember that you'll owe it to the player to send him our way and take whatever we send back without a fuss.

[TuggyNE]

I've been on the receiving end of a similar plot before. It is not fun to not be able to contribute to what is happening at the table. You're going to go through with it, I can tell. Just remember that you'll owe it to the player to send him our way and take whatever we send back without a fuss.

The OP hasn't posted in more than a page, so they might have changed their mind.

[Averis Vol]

Or he got tired of people telling him he was bad for not playing their way. Seriously, all of maybe four people have gave him the advice he asked for, and instead followed typical protocol here and told him he was wrong.

And if he's playing a paladin then it obviously isn't a particularly high powered game. So if you couldn't suck up a level or so without all those amazing paladin class features you might need to recheck your priorities or instead play a game thats nearly completely focused on mechanics and combat like 4E.

/rant

[Jael]

Hmm... if you are going with a Paladin, a Fall, and Amnesia?

Another interesting route to think of is that your character is Lawful Good. They know they had paladin gear and divine powers, but don't anymore.

What they don't know is that they were a Chaotic Evil paladin variant. Put on a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and the powers they are seeking to regain are actually 180 away from their current alignment.

Which can lead to an eventual plot where the character discovers who he really was. And is allowed to make a choice about who he wanted to be. Allow his Atonement to work either way. He can fully renounce his old self and become a standard PHB Paladin, or that he could embrace his old ways, decide the ways of Awful Stupid alignment isn't for him, and end up as a Paladin of Slaughter once more.

I did something very similar to that once : The PC were powerful villain, so powerful that they cannot be killed. They were instead put to sleep, and a ritual was made to change their alignement. They woked up, thinking they were good, but as they progress, they learned about their past deeds... the team was divided as some wanted to be evil again and others didnt. It was a really huge success.
As I told you guys, my players are in for the roleplay, not hack n' slash. Stats and powers doesn't mather as long as there's a good story

[Jael]

@the OP - I just want you to consider, for a moment, how you would feel if you sat down at a table with a character in front of you. Something you'd potentially put an hour or two of work into, to make it work mechanically. You're looking forward to smiting some orcs, and soon getting your fancy shiny horse.

And then the DM tells you, the first time you try to do something, "It doesn't work.".

That's exactly what I want to happen. But don't worry, he will regain his power very soon. And I'll give him something to offset his temporaty loss. Like playing an aasimar with no LA, or d12 HD, anything. Anyway, he won't care, he'll be fond of tryiong to find what happened and the challenge of recovering his powers

[Jael]

Well, thanks to all that tried to help me, especially Draconi, who understand my requests.

Just a small point: I've never made a Paladin purposely fall in any of my games, but now it's exceptional and for the purpose of the story.

Also, don't fear, the cleric will also fall.

Thanks again for all the help, I'll keep some ideas.

To the others : sorry but I don't care how lame you think my game will be, I know my players will enjoy it.

[Raineh Daze]

To the others : sorry but I don't care how lame you think my game will be, I know my players will enjoy it.

Next time you try asking for help here, try not to make it about how to best get rid of a character's abilities. It's like going to a place full of people eating pizza, then asking them how to prepare a casserole. :smallamused:

[Ceaon]

I find the best way to get people to perform actions they would otherwise not perform is to attack them personally and mercilessly in a way that they can't defend against easily except with violence.
For instance, the bad guy (an enchanter?) tricked the paladin into killing his own wife/child/sibling. This is not the act that made him fall (although the players may think so for a while). After several taunts or more threats, the paladin fell for brutally torturing and killing the bad guy after he regained his senses.
Wishing to forget his crimes and the loss of his loved one, the paladin chose to do something that made him lose his memory.

Edit: paladin is a sucky class anyway, fallen or not. Optimizing one is mainly a case of WBL-mancy and a few good feats, less so class features. A mounted build can still work with a non-special mount, charging is dependent on feats that a paladin can mostly select by level 11, etc.
If the player never HAD any paladin powers in the first place, it may not feel like a downgrade, it may feel like a challenge.