Breaking a Munchkin DM

[Threadnaught]

I created a character for a session where my munchkin player (that ******* Druid) was DM. Since then I have created a second character to help out my first character, both of them controlled by myself. He also introduced an Artificer DMPC during the first session.



Kobold

Druid

Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 15
Int: 16
Wis: 17
Cha: 15

Feats
Dragonwrought (Force)

I plan on taking Dragon Wings at 3rd.
Vow of Poverty as soon as possible for a whole bunch of boosts to all stats.
Improved Dragon Wings at 12th for full Flight, permanently.
A 1 level dip in Monk at 2nd for Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple and Wisdom to AC without breaking my Vow. Also no fiddling about with Wilding Clasp.

Should I take Hover and try to improve my Flight?
Dip into Sorcerer to try to use those Force Dragon Spells?
Or just go Natural Spell and go all outwith Dire Tortoise and Polar Bear?

Suggestions on how to advance VoP at Epic levels besides just the bigger numbers are also welcome, I'll also allow my players to use one of them when I'm DMing, if they make it to Epic.

Yes, his name is a reference to Pun Pun, yes you may say you "like the cut of my Jib."


Gray Elf

Elven Generalist Domain Wizard

Str: 11
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 19
Wis: 13
Cha: 14

Flaws
Frail
Slow

Feats
Collegiate Wizard
Alacritous Cogitation
Versatile Spellcaster

His name means "Legendary Storm in Dark Void" which is appropriate, because I chose Storm Domain for the Cleric/Druid Spells.

From my calculations, this guy starts with a spellbook (100 pages) filled with all level 0 Spells (81 pages) as all other Wizards, but because of the Feat and substitution levels, he gets 7+Intelligence Modifier (4) level 1 Spells (70 pages) at 1st level. I've been through the spells and selected mostly buffs to protect, ignore penalties and a couple of combat enders. Mount is gonna be a very useful Spell.
Each Wizard level should grant 5 new Spells instead of two, meaning I won't have to rely on my DM being slightly more generous than me about how often I can learn Spells.

Ii want some good suggestions on Feats beyond 1st level.

[eggynack]

I plan on taking Dragon Wings at 3rd.
Vow of Poverty as soon as possible for a whole bunch of boosts to all stats.
Improved Dragon Wings at 12th for full Flight, permanently.
A 1 level dip in Monk at 2nd for Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple and Wisdom to AC without breaking my Vow. Also no fiddling about with Wilding Clasp.

Should I take Hover and try to improve my Flight?
Dip into Sorcerer to try to use those Force Dragon Spells?
Or just go Natural Spell and go all outwith Dire Tortoise and Polar Bear?

Suggestions on how to advance VoP at Epic levels besides just the bigger numbers are also welcome, I'll also allow my players to use one of them when I'm DMing, if they make it to Epic.

Your druid optimization feels a bit off, especially if you're trying to build the most powerful druid you can. Monk is mostly just a downgrade to taking a level in druid, and you shouldn't be wasting any resources on flight, because you get flight from wildshape. You can be a desmodu hunting bat for most of the day starting at level 6. Those things have 60 ft flight speed (good), 20 AC, and you can give them 120 ft blindsight through enhanced wildshape. Basically, you just want to make your character a series of 20 dips, except all of those dips are in druid, because the best thing for a druid is more druid. Just go druid 20 and stop worrying about everything else.

The second thing, is that you should avoid vow of poverty. It's OK on a druid, but it's generally a downgrade. I don't know why you can't use wilding clasps, but even without them, wealth by level is better. There are a ton of items you're going to want on a druid, like a ring, mantle, and armor of the beast. For bonus points, use the item ability stacking rules to make those items do extra things, so that you can use different item abilities while wildshaped. There are probably other good druid items too. My general druid build is usually summoning based. Something like spell focus (conjuration), augment summoning, natural spell, rashemi elemental summoning, ashbound summoning, and then some other things. You could also go the greenbound summoning route instead, and maybe toss natural bond onto the list somewhere.

[Invader]

Just curious, why would you ever burn 2-3 feats to get sub part flight on a druid even if you did have extra feats to burn? :smallconfused:

[FleshrakerAbuse]

For your low-level druid feats, you should go for metamagic feats like extend or craft contingent spell, or summoning feats, so that later you can get things like fast wild shape and swift wild shape. Your flight powers can be duplicated via various druid spells or wildshaping. I'd suggest (if you want kobold) to go:
Extend Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Natural Spell
Fast Wild Shape
Dragon Wild Shape

That should give you your dragon-aspiring kobold flavor.

[eggynack]

I'd generally advise against fast or swift wildshape. Instead, he can use mantle of the beast, from complete champion, to get swift action wildshape, along with a +1 to attack and damage in wildshape, for 18,000 GP. That item is pretty sweet for someone who seeks to wildshape a lot. Ring of the beast is also good for summoning purposes, though armor of the beast is generally pretty mediocre in my opinion.

[Invader]

For your low-level druid feats, you should go for metamagic feats like extend or craft contingent spell, or summoning feats, so that later you can get things like fast wild shape and swift wild shape. Your flight powers can be duplicated via various druid spells or wildshaping. I'd suggest (if you want kobold) to go:
Extend Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Natural Spell
Fast Wild Shape
Dragon Wild Shape

That should give you your dragon-aspiring kobold flavor.

You have to be 11th level to take craft contingent spell so youre not taking it before 12th and I agree with eggynack that there are a lot of better choices over fast and quick wildshape.

[Neo Tin Robo]

I remember there being an Epic Vow of Poverty someone posted on the wizards boards back in the day. It made up for the comparative weakness of the normal vow by being downright silly at epic levels. Hitting level 40 actually gave you a Divine Rank of 0. At that point you just need to convince/coerce people into worshipping you and - congrats! - you're officially a god. :smallcool:

Since this is a munchkin-y game it may just fit in perfectly.

[Azernak0]

If something requires level 40 to become a God, I doubt it can qualify as Munchkinism.

[CRtwenty]

If something requires level 40 to become a God, I doubt it can qualify as Munchkinism.

Yeah, especially since in Basic characters automatically became Gods after reaching level 30. :p

[Neo Tin Robo]

If something requires level 40 to become a God, I doubt it can qualify as Munchkinism.

That depends, what level was Karsus? :smallbiggrin:

At any rate, I'd think a guaranteed method of godhood would be a munchkin's dream. You're free to stack on whatever else you want, except magic items of course. But hey, you've got worshippers to use those for you.

I found the full description archived by the way. Behold!

Epic Vow of Poverty (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866286/Vow_of_Poverty_Question?post_num=3#338217846)

[Invader]

That depends, what level was Karsus? :smallbiggrin:

At any rate, I'd think a guaranteed method of godhood would be a munchkin's dream. You're free to stack on whatever else you want, except magic items of course. But hey, you've got worshippers to use those for you.

I found the full description archived by the way. Behold!

Epic Vow of Poverty (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866286/Vow_of_Poverty_Question?post_num=3#338217846)

That's still completely awful compared to having magic items. In fact the epic version is worse when you consider what your WBL can buy you from levels 20-40.

[Neo Tin Robo]

But look at what you could potentially get here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).

[Invader]

But look at what you could potentially get here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).

Divine rank 0 gets no salient divine abilities.

And regardless of divine rank 0 it doesn't compare to WBL magic items.

[eggynack]

But look at what you could potentially get here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).
But items. You can get just about every single item in the game by level 40, especially given the fact that breaking that infinite wealth by level requires zero effort. Divine rank zero, which is what you're getting at level 40, suffers from the same problems that vow of poverty suffers from in normal games. All you're getting from this ability is
"* His hit points are increased to the maximum possible for his Hit Dice.
* His base land speed increases to 60 feet (50 feet if he is Small)
* His deflection bonus to AC is increased by his Charisma bonus.
* He is rendered immune to polymorph, petrification and any other effect that alters his form (though he may forgo this immunity at his option).
* He is no longer subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage or mind-affecting effects.
* He gains spell resistance 32, or his existing spell resistance increases by 5."

That just seems really really mediocre at 40. You could probably replicate every single one of those abilities with items, and simultaneously do far better. These abilities just really really aren't worth the ability to buy every single item in every single source book in the game. I'm not even sure if they're worth the ability to buy every single item in the SRD and MIC. You're just doing so much more than this at epic levels, that this is barely a blip on the radar. Seriously, vow of poverty is terrible. It's terrible all the time, and especially at epic levels. It's at best mediocre on the OP's character, because he's a druid and doesn't need items to be great, but even then it's not good.

[Neo Tin Robo]

Once you're at rank 0, what's to stop you from gaining worshippers? Get enough of them and your rank would increase.

[eggynack]

Once you're at rank 0, what's to stop you from gaining worshippers? Get enough of them and your rank would increase.
Once you have no rank at all, what's to stop you from gaining worshippers? There are some pretty good ways to pick up divine ranks without being a level 40 character without items. Also, as was noted, if you're level 40 it doesn't count as cheese. That's just being level 40. Most characters are not level 40, and those that are have left your level of optimization behind a long time ago. It's just not good.

[Neo Tin Robo]

Such as?

Anyway, the topic creator specifically asked about an epic progression for vow of poverty, so I passed one along. Not sure why that angers you so, but whatever.

[Invader]

Once you're at rank 0, what's to stop you from gaining worshippers? Get of them and your rank would increase.

You can go dragon ascendant, get divine rank 0 10 levels early and still have 10 class levels and 10 levels of actual wealth.

There's really no good argument, VoP is awful compared to wealth especially in epic levels. Like eggynack said, you can reproduce all the benefits VoP gives 5 times over with magical items with room left over. They're quite simply better.

[Invader]

And like I said, no salient divine abilities as a quasi diety.

[eggynack]

Such as?

Anyway, the topic creator specifically asked about an epic progression for vow of poverty, so I passed one along. Not sure why that angers you so, but whatever.
I don't think I've been acting angry so much as just telling you that you're wrong. You seem to be convinced that divine rank 0 at level 40 is silly somehow, and I'm telling you that it is not that. It's not overpowered, and it's not even on par. You didn't just pass along an epic vow of poverty progression; you made untrue claims about it, which you subsequently argued for. I don't see why I shouldn't argue back against that.

[Threadnaught]

Your druid optimization feels a bit off, especially if you're trying to build the most powerful druid you can. Monk is mostly just a downgrade to taking a level in druid, and you shouldn't be wasting any resources on flight, because you get flight from wildshape.

I can break this DM's game without building the most powerful character ever, he's not so bad when he's DMing. He goes into full on would be munchkin almost every time he opens his mouth as a player though.


You can be a desmodu hunting bat for most of the day starting at level 6. Those things have 60 ft flight speed (good), 20 AC, and you can give them 120 ft blindsight through enhanced wildshape.

Hmm, I guess it could be useful for the game I DM, to show him the full power of a Druid. Instead of just Spellcasting, Animal Companion and the occasional Wild Shape. Two little questions about the Desmodu Hunting Bat.
How big is it?
How many HD does it have?


Just go druid 20 and stop worrying about everything else.

Okay then, no VoP or Monk dip, just Monk's Belt and however many Wilding Clasps I need.


The second thing, is that you should avoid vow of poverty. It's OK on a druid, but it's generally a downgrade.

I just find myself drawn to it for it's simplicity and immunity to Disjunction and Sundering.


I don't know why you can't use wilding clasps, but even without them, wealth by level is better.

They're not banned, t*D is allowing stuff I'd allow and is allowing me to use them. I just find them very confusing. I need one for every item right?


Extend Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Natural Spell
Fast Wild Shape
Dragon Wild Shape

That should give you your dragon-aspiring kobold flavor.

Instead of Fast Wild Shape. What do you guys think to Assume Supernatural Ability?


As for the Wizard... Tippy's right below me isn't he?

[Invader]

IMO assume super natural ability is way better than fast wild shape. You should look into aberration wildshape as well.

[eggynack]

Hmm, I guess it could be useful for the game I DM, to show him the full power of a Druid. Instead of just Spellcasting, Animal Companion and the occasional Wild Shape. Two little questions about the Desmodu Hunting Bat.
How big is it?
How many HD does it have?

It's medium sized and has 4 hd, so you can wildshape into it immediately and go most places. They also get tripping riding dog style, and as I noted, enhance wildshape at 4th level spells can combine with it to get you 120 ft blind sight for hours/level. It's pretty great.



Okay then, no VoP or Monk dip, just Monk's Belt and however many Wilding Clasps I need.
I just find myself drawn to it for it's simplicity and immunity to Disjunction and Sundering.
They're not banned, t*D is allowing stuff I'd allow and is allowing me to use them. I just find them very confusing. I need one for every item right?

Yeah, you just stick it on all of your items without any trouble. It's essentially a 4000 gp per item tax, but you can minimize that loss by putting a lot of abilities on a single item. For example, the belt of battle and the monk's belt are both great items on a druid, so that makes a good combined item. It's a good idea to stick basic stat boosting abilities onto other things, because as per the MIC, you can do that for no additional cost.



Instead of Fast Wild Shape. What do you guys think to Assume Supernatural Ability?

You should probably skip fast wildshape whether or not you use assume supernatural ability. As I noted, the mantle of the beast from complete champion gets you swift action wildshape for 18,000 GP, and you don't even need wilding clasps. I generally avoid getting anything through feats that I can get reasonably through GP. I've heard that assume supernatural ability is extremely cheesy, though I don't know the specifics behind that.

[Neo Tin Robo]

Like eggynack said, you can reproduce all the benefits VoP gives 5 times over with magical items with room left over.

Not even close to true if you look at the epic version. It was actually developed with WBL in mind. Granted you may wish to make different choices with your money, but the OP asked about an epic vow.


You didn't just pass along an epic vow of poverty progression; you made untrue claims about it, which you subsequently argued for.

I made no untrue claims. I said it gives you rank 0, which could theoretically lead to higher ranks and additional powers.

[eggynack]

Not even close to true if you look at the epic version. It was actually developed with WBL in mind. Granted you may wish to make different choices with your money, but the OP asked about an epic vow.

I made no untrue claims. I said it gives you rank 0, which could theoretically lead to higher ranks and additional powers.
A non-existent divine rank could theoretically lead to higher ranks and additional powers. Invaderk already posted a faster way to get the ability, so your point is kinda null anyway. Moreover, I don't care whether it was developed with wealth by level in mind, because it fails. Tell me, what out of that list of things can't I replicate with items at that level? I really don't understand what you're seeing in this feat that's anywhere near good, or anywhere near a 40th level character's functionally infinite wealth by level. Seriously, you have 13,600,000 gp at that level, and breaking that wealth by level is so trivial as to not be worth mentioning.

[Invader]

I started a separate thread to discuss the merits of VoP vs. WBL to keep from derailing this one.

[Neo Tin Robo]

A non-existent divine rank could theoretically lead to higher ranks and additional powers. Invaderk already posted a faster way to get the ability, so your point is kinda null anyway. Moreover, I don't care whether it was developed with wealth by level in mind, because it fails. Tell me, what out of that list of things can't I replicate with items at that level? I really don't understand what you're seeing in this feat that's anywhere near good, or anywhere near a 40th level character's functionally infinite wealth by level. Seriously, you have 13,600,000 gp at that level, and breaking that wealth by level is so trivial as to not be worth mentioning.

So there's a faster way. So what? I made no claims of "fastest" or "best." I simply pointed out a way.

And since you're determined to argue, go ahead and show me how 13.6 million pays for all the feat's benefits "five times over with room to spare."

[Threadnaught]

This thread has seriously been horribly derailed. Does anyone besides me care about the Wizard?


I've decided to ignore as much Metamagic as I can get through the Artificer crafting Metamagic Rods, I'll keep a few of those handy so I can mix and match.

Best case scenario, I'll have a single Rod of Extend at 3rd level. At 4th he'll have his Homunculus to craft for him and at 5th level I'll hopefully be able to manipulate t*D into giving himself loads of treasure in the form of Magic Items, so he can become a factory churning out all the crap I desire.


Wizard guys. Ideas, anyone? Tippy?