Belkar thinks he's Chaotic Good?

[Zmeoaice]

In the latest comic we see Belkar/Scruffy's happy ending. Apparently they did die (although it's unknown how) and is with Shojo and Scruffy. However, Belkar is evil, and knows he's evil. So why is he there?

It's possible that in his mind he's done enough "good" acts that he would be permitted into the CG afterlife, even if he is rotten inside. Belkar is dumb, so he might believe that he's eligible.

Or Belkar never died in his dream, and Shojo has been resurrected somehow. But his wake up line implies he thinks he's dead.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Or Belkar never died in his dream, and Shojo has been resurrected somehow.

I think that is way more probable than "Belkar thinks he is Chaotic Good". He is a dim bulb, but not that dim.

[CRtwenty]

he was under an illusion that explicitly smoothed over things like alignments and the laws of the multiverse. having him hanging out with Shojo either living or dead is well within its bounds, regardless of what he thinks of his alignment.

Also it's possible that in his dream Shojo's big brain created a swanky bachelor pad in Limbo for them.

[PebbleInTheSky]

Is it possible Belkar is just visiting temporarily? It seems like it should be possible if an evil adventuring party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)was able to invade Roy's afterlife.

[EmperorSarda]

The Illusion has nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with goals.

For example, Haley has been seeking out her Father, Elan has been concerned with his family, Roy has been concerned about beating Xykon and proving himself to his father. With a mix of other things.

But Belkar? What motivation have we ever seen beyond looking out for Scruffy? He has no enemy that has shown up, he has no driving goal, he is just there to kill. It doesn't matter who he kills, not does he have anyone specific that he wants to kill.

Hence why his vision has to do with Mr. Scruffy. Because this is the only thing that really drives him.

Shojo is there because Mr. Scruffy misses him, and Mr. Scruffy wants to be with Belkar. Hence why Belkar is included because any killing Belkar ever does is a small rampage.

So it has nothing to do with alignment and more to do with end goals. Belkar cared nothing for the goals of his teammates, and thus was not included in their vision. That is the only reason why. Aside from the fact that his teammates don't care about Mr. Scruffy either.

[Living Oxymoron]

Or Belkar never died in his dream, and Shojo has been resurrected somehow. But his wake up line implies he thinks he's dead.


I think that is way more probable than "Belkar thinks he is Chaotic Good". He is a dim bulb, but not that dim.

I don't think that Shojo would be ressurected in Belkar's dream. That would be incoherent, since Belkar was the only one to justify the unsuccessful attempts of ressurecting Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html).

My opinion is that Haley tried to explain the effects of the spell, but she doesn't really know what the spell actually does. So she ignored the fact that everyone there, Belkar and Scruffy included, were sharing the same dream, in which Belkar died, and lived his afterlife with Scruffy and Shojo. And we should not forget the cat's feelings too, that I think to be the main reason to Shojo be in the dream. Thus, the last panel:
:belkar: Yup. Definitely just my dream.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Not incoherent. Shojo didn't want to be resurrected by the Lawful Good Azurite High Priest. Maybe in Belkar's mind he'd accept a rez from someone else.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, it is clearly Mr Scruffy's perfect world. He's got his old servant master to scratch his belly and his new one to make him tuna.

[EmperorSarda]

Not incoherent. Shojo didn't want to be resurrected by the Lawful Good Azurite High Priest. Maybe in Belkar's mind he'd accept a rez from someone else.

Or maybe, like how Durkon showed up as a non-vampire in the other illusion, Mr. Scruffy's desire to see his old owner is strong enough to bring him back with some flimsy justification to Belkar?

[ZarDaranth]

Yeah, it is clearly Mr Scruffy's perfect world. He's got his old servant master to scratch his belly and his new one to make him tuna.

The kitty does have swirly eyes after all. I think it's a combination of Belkar and Mr. Scruffy's dream, since Belkar is starting to realize that "Wacky Old Guy" had something good going there,and he is fairly one-dimensional (hurting things being the only thing he's good at).

[The Giant]

It's not the afterlife. It's Shojo's quarters, as previously seen in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs.

Belkar's dream was entirely separate from that of the rest of the Order, and he never died in his. Instead, he saw whatever improbable string of events would be required to justify Shojo's resurrection so that Mr. Scruffy could get tummy rubs, because that's what Mr. Scruffy wanted.

[WindStruck]

Also to try to answer the OP. Whether or not it's similar to an afterlife or not, don't most evil people fail to see how they are evil and always think they are in the right?

Well, except in Belkar's case, I think he knows he's evil and enjoys it. At least, that's how it was before his curse....

[An Enemy Spy]

Good and Evil are pretty clear cut in OOTS. If Belkar thought he was good, he wouldn't carry around a lead sheet to hide from paladins. Basically, the dream comes down to these three factors. Belkar loves cooking, Mr. Scruffy loves getting tummy rubs and eating tuna, and they both like Shojo.

[137beth]

Good and Evil are pretty clear cut in OOTS. If Belkar thought he was good, he wouldn't carry around a lead sheet to hide from paladins. Basically, the dream comes down to these three factors. Belkar loves cooking, Mr. Scruffy loves getting tummy rubs and eating tuna, and they both like Shojo.

Huh, and I though he wasn't carrying his lead sheet anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). Since, ya know, character development:smallsigh:

[EmperorSarda]

It's not the afterlife. It's Shojo's quarters, as previously seen in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs.

Belkar's dream was entirely separate from that of the rest of the Order, and he never died in his. Instead, he saw whatever improbable string of events would be required to justify Shojo's resurrection so that Mr. Scruffy could get tummy rubs, because that's what Mr. Scruffy wanted.

Thank you Giant for answering this. Thank you.

[dps]

Probably worth noting that the one thing besides hurting people that Belkar is good at is cooking.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I would assume that Belkar is only evil out of deep seated rage and hatred for the world. In a perfect dream world he therefore has no reason to be evil.

[Kish]

Belkar really has changed. Roy got everyone wanting to be a fighter, Haley got a massive pile of money...but Belkar didn't get anything for Belkar himself, just for Mr. Scruffy.

[Silverionmox]

Chaotic Good? No. Having a good time with your pals is thoroughly Neutral desire.

[Burner28]

Huh, and I though he wasn't carrying his lead sheet anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). Since, ya know, character development:smallsigh:

Yes, because becoming less Evil means that you are automatically Neutral, right? In order for Belkar to even qualify for redemption, he has to accept that all his previous Evil deeds were wrong, otherwise he is just in the same situation as Tarquin. I thought people would realise by now that just because one has a few loved ones, it doesn't mean that one cannot be Evil?

[Thrax]

It's not the afterlife. It's Shojo's quarters, as previously seen in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs.

Belkar's dream was entirely separate from that of the rest of the Order, and he never died in his. Instead, he saw whatever improbable string of events would be required to justify Shojo's resurrection so that Mr. Scruffy could get tummy rubs, because that's what Mr. Scruffy wanted.

Belkar's dream and the contrived reasons illusion made up for Shojo being back would be a cool bonus strip in the print book. Just saying. :D

[Katuko]

Huh, and I though he wasn't carrying his lead sheet anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html). Since, ya know, character development:smallsigh:

He does not say anything that implies he left the sheet behind on purpose. In fact, he even asks the gladiator in front of him if he'd be so kind to yell "Smite Evil" when he attacks, presumably because Belkar would get some sadistic joy out of beating up a paladin (or at least a Miko stand-in). The whole arena prison thing also has Belkar explicitly take on the role of the local bully that everyone hates.

His character development is definitely there, but he's still rather antagonistic against people he does not care to impress. The Order gets him acting somewhat nice, while people who cross him such as Lou, Malack and random arena NPC #14 get a fight and belittling comments.

[Ghost Nappa]

I thought people would realise by now that just because one has a few loved ones, it doesn't mean that one cannot be Evil?

There's this little source of confusion: Belkar is a PC. From the perspective of a reader, it may be far easier to excuse Belkar given both his apparent and actual growth. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality)

[Michaeler]

I tend to see Belkar as being addicted to evil. From time to time he seems like he is going to kick the habit out of concern for his nearest and dearest, but then something triggers a relapse and he falls right off the wagon and for a while stops trying to be anything but his darkest impulses. Most recently this occurred when he forced a kobold to eat cat feces as revenge.

It's possible that, with nobody provoking him (real or imagined) in the illusion of a perfect world, he was able to keep his darker nature in check and could have become any alignment at all. In reality ... not so much.

[sam79]

Belkar really has changed. Roy got everyone wanting to be a fighter, Haley got a massive pile of money...but Belkar didn't get anything for Belkar himself, just for Mr. Scruffy.

From the one glimpse of his fantasy we've seen, that's true. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the Belkster has his personal posse of kitchen bitches in the next room to [Insert culinary-based sexual innuendo here].

[NerdyKris]

Belkar really has changed. Roy got everyone wanting to be a fighter, Haley got a massive pile of money...but Belkar didn't get anything for Belkar himself, just for Mr. Scruffy.

He's been shown to love cooking many times. It's not unreasonable to believe that the improbable series of events also meant he decided to get a respectable job as a private chef instead of continuing to be a marauding lunatic.

[deworde]

For me, the clue is in the title. Mr Scruffy has dreams. He wants food and his tummy rubbed and to be surrounded by the servants he loves. But Belkar? Belkar is just impulses. His last dream (as in something he wanted enough to plan for) was losing Miko her paladin powers.
This is why Roy can control him, because Belkar doesn't care enough to oppose his control on general principles, only on whim. And that's why Mr Scruffy's dreams dominated their shared fantasy.

[sam79]

[H]e decided to get a respectable job as a private chef instead of continuing to be a marauding lunatic.

But why not "as well as", in place of "instead of"? In BelkarWorld, they're probably compatible.

[King of Nowhere]

But Belkar? Belkar is just impulses. His last dream (as in something he wanted enough to plan for) was losing Miko her paladin powers.
This is why Roy can control him, because Belkar doesn't care enough to oppose his control on general principles, only on whim. And that's why Mr Scruffy's dreams dominated their shared fantasy.

A few strips ago belkar mentioned almost puking to death "because you weren't there to keep me from doing something stupid".
So, I think Belkar is smart enough to realize that if he just follows his impulses bad things will happen to him, and is content to let roy be the voice of his missing foresight.

[Oko and Qailee]

I don't think his alignment is relevant.

Elan explained that the illusion gives everyone their hearts desire. Well Belkar apparent desires nothing more than to take care of Mr. Scruffy, and hes fine with doing it with Shojo.

Even is he's CE, the illusion is going to give him what he wants, not what he deserves, so in his fantasy world he ends up going to CG heaven.

Keep in mind Belkar is clearly moving closer and closer to CG from CE. He just wants to maintain his CE appearance for some reason.

[Oko and Qailee]

But why not "as well as", in place of "instead of"? In BelkarWorld, they're probably compatible.

Because he doesn't care as much about ruthlessly killing anymore.

Mr. Scruffy and the Mark of Justice gave him a new outlook on life. The current Belkar is not the same Belkar that stabbed the oracle.

[Domino Quartz]

Even is he's CE, the illusion is going to give him what he wants, not what he deserves, so in his fantasy world he ends up going to CG heaven.


Sorry, you're sort of wrong there:

It's not the afterlife. It's Shojo's quarters, as previously seen in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs.

Belkar's dream was entirely separate from that of the rest of the Order, and he never died in his. Instead, he saw whatever improbable string of events would be required to justify Shojo's resurrection so that Mr. Scruffy could get tummy rubs, because that's what Mr. Scruffy wanted.


I don't think his alignment is relevant.

Elan explained that the illusion gives everyone their hearts desire. Well Belkar apparent desires nothing more than to take care of Mr. Scruffy, and hes fine with doing it with Shojo.


We only see a few moments from Belkar's fantasy. He might have been doing other stuff in it that we don't get to see.



Keep in mind Belkar is clearly moving closer and closer to CG from CE. He just wants to maintain his CE appearance for some reason.

This is highly debated. In my own opinion, Belkar has definitely made progress, but he hasn't really made any significant progress towards being non-evil - and isn't likely to before his death.

[sam79]

Because he doesn't care as much about ruthlessly killing anymore.

Mr. Scruffy and the Mark of Justice gave him a new outlook on life. The current Belkar is not the same Belkar that stabbed the oracle.

Ok, but he's still vicious, nasty and into killing/hurting people; force feeding someone their own intestines, and someone else the excrement of his cat, and so on. He's still very CE in my book.

ETA: ninja'd

[Michaeler]

When somebody gets a rise out of Belkar he commits chaotic evil acts.

He needs to work on it being harder to get a rise out of him if he wants to ever stop being chaotic evil. It is possible that he was more peaceful in the illusion just because it was a perfect world and there was nobody to get a rise from him. Sadly, it wasn't real.

[deworde]

A few strips ago belkar mentioned almost puking to death "because you weren't there to keep me from doing something stupid".
So, I think Belkar is smart enough to realize that if he just follows his impulses bad things will happen to him, and is content to let roy be the voice of his missing foresight.

Yes, exactly. It didn't make him wise up and realise he had to start trying to achieve something, it made him wise up and realise that even if he didn't want to achieve anything, he was going to get forcibly prevented from impeding others achievements via the medium of ferrous material penetrating his body.

Like I say, it's not that he wants whores and stabbing, it's that he doesn't want anything, but if bored, whores and stabbing will fill the void.

[Sylthia]

Since his "development" Belker hasn't really done that much evil. Maybe he's sliding into CN territory without realizing it.

[skim172]

But Belkar? What motivation have we ever seen beyond looking out for Scruffy? He has no enemy that has shown up, he has no driving goal, he is just there to kill. It doesn't matter who he kills, not does he have anyone specific that he wants to kill.

Actually, I think #281 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) shows pretty clearly that Belkar doesn't kill for the sake of killing itself. It's not so much he likes to kill as that he enjoys violence as a way to escape boredom. He's not evil because he's actively pursuing an evil cause or upholding an evil ideal - he's evil in that he doesn't care about anything except himself. He's not immoral, he's absolutely amoral - he kills and brutalizes because it gives him pleasure. He's evil because he'd disembowel a random stranger for a candy bar - a complete sociopathic disregard for others.

What's changed is two things: 1) he cares for another living being now and 2) he's developed an instrumentalist perspective, courtesy of Shojo, that he can use other people, instead of completely disregarding them. And to use them, he needs to get them on his side. That might be leaning towards Neutral, rather than Good - he doesn't help his teammates for the sake of doing what's right, but because convincing them of his helpfulness will make his life more comfortable.

In Freudian terms, Belkar is developing a stronger Ego, which mediates between the Id's instinctual drive for pleasure and reality - "It seeks to please the id’s drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bring grief" (Wikipedia). That "long-term" thinking is quite important. Belkar doesn't think long-term.


My suggestion is that Belkar's Id-driven personality is derived from a deep-rooted sense of lack of self-worth. Belkar has a sense that he doesn't matter as much, that no one else cares about him, that the universe and the cosmos have screwed him over from the very beginning. From that arises his selfishness ("why should I care about them if they don't care about me"), his amorality ("if morality exists, then why did I get screwed over") and his enjoyment of violence ("every violent act is hitting back at the world that screwed me").

Belkar prefers short-term thinking to long-term, because long-term inevitably brings on self-loathing. The self-loathing is not rooted in remorse for his actions, but self-pity - for that pathetic little creature who's all alone and abandoned by a universe that's stacked against him, oh that poor thing. If that self-pitying depiction caused you to grimace, Belkar does the same. He takes comfort in that self-pitying image, but it also generates an intense self-dislike for that pathetic creature. Belkar is ruled by resentment and hatred for all things, including himself.

What Shojo and Scruffy represent are two disruptions to this worldview. Shojo managed to subvert the system spectacularly, to make it work for him - an accomplishment that draws admiration from Belkar, who's spent his life resenting the system and desires to accomplish the same. But until Shojo's ghost/illusion/delusion shows up, Belkar has no idea how to follow that goal.

Scruffy is also a poor mewling little thing that the cosmos are stacked against (in Belkar's eyes). And yet, Scruffy is also stronger than he looks, able to fight back. Belkar sees himself in Scruffy - two small things that the universe screwed over, but we're stronger than you think we are and it's the two of us against the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html). And we'll make ourselves into gods of your stupid little cosmos in the end.


Shojo and Scruffy are, therefore, pretty major paradigm shifts in Belkar's way of thinking. Belkar now believes that it is possible to secure a positive long-term future for himself (faking and cheating his way) instead of just short-term pleasure. And he now believes it is possible that another living being can positively care about him and vice versa. Neither one guarantees that Belkar will ultimately change, but a shift in worldview means he can start seeing new possibilities.

For example, he seems to have started genuinely caring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0868.html) (whether he realizes it or not) about the approval of his teammates. It may be more instrumental than moral, but it now matters to him whether or not Roy sees him as "a valuable part of the team." THAT is a pretty significant change, because it means Belkar now values others' opinions about him AND believes that there is a realistic chance that those opinions might be positive. He has some regard for the minds of others and believes they might have some regard for him.

[SoC175]

Actually, I think #281 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) shows pretty clearly that Belkar doesn't kill for the sake of killing itself. because that wouldn't be evil enough for him.

He's not evil because he's actively pursuing an evil cause or upholding an evil idealYou mean like not killing her because that would be too easy to reverse, but rather wanting her to lose her paladin status (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html)

[veti]

You mean like not killing her because that would be too easy to reverse, but rather wanting her to lose her paladin status (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html)

But he's not interested in making Miko 'Fall' because that would be some great cosmic blow for the powers of EEEeevil. He's interested in making her Fall because he hates her - personally and specifically, not because she's a paladin, but because she's a xdfw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html). He has no interest in tempting or corrupting any other paladins.

I think his fantasy isn't to be Shojo's personal chef, exactly. More that he sees Shojo as a father-figure, and wants to spend time with him.

I don't know if you've read the Kickstarter background story about Belkar? Very mild spoiler:
It suggests that he sets out to be a hero and win public applause and acclaim, but it all goes horribly wrong because he's an unthinking psychopath. Not that he's trying to do evil - he's just not willing to go to the trouble to avoid doing it.

[Malanthyus]

If I was going to guess, I'd say that Belkar's "happy ending" was a scenario in which Shojo talked him into bringing him back from the dead, and retaking his former power with Belkar on staff officially as a cook, but actually employed as an extreme "problem solver". This would allow Belkar to get all the benefits of society while still engaging in all his desires for violence, personal gratification, and his barely developing need for a connection.

[Oko and Qailee]

Sorry, you're sort of wrong there:

.

Haha, my bad. I didn't even see the name of the person who said that.

Ok, that makes sense then. I can see Belkar thinking Shajo would come back when ressurected by CG character or something.

[Kremlin KOA]

The Illusion has nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with goals.

For example, Haley has been seeking out her Father, Elan has been concerned with his family, Roy has been concerned about beating Xykon and proving himself to his father. With a mix of other things.

But Belkar? What motivation have we ever seen beyond looking out for Scruffy? He has no enemy that has shown up, he has no driving goal, he is just there to kill. It doesn't matter who he kills, not does he have anyone specific that he wants to kill.

Hence why his vision has to do with Mr. Scruffy. Because this is the only thing that really drives him.

Shojo is there because Mr. Scruffy misses him, and Mr. Scruffy wants to be with Belkar. Hence why Belkar is included because any killing Belkar ever does is a small rampage.

So it has nothing to do with alignment and more to do with end goals. Belkar cared nothing for the goals of his teammates, and thus was not included in their vision. That is the only reason why. Aside from the fact that his teammates don't care about Mr. Scruffy either.

Or his goal is to redeem himself enough that he gets to the CG afterlife and has a happy ending kicking back with Shojo and Scruffinator?

Okay apparently WoG says it was living world. Which suggests his ideal is kicking back and chillaxing with Shojo and cooking for his friends.

It shows not that he is redeemed, but that he desires redemption.

[An Enemy Spy]

When has Belkar ever shown the slightest sign of wanting to be redeemed? His character development is not about about being good instead of evil. It's about moderating his impulses to be more acceptable to other people so they don't decide to get rid of him. I find it hard to believe that a man who turns his enemies into hats/chip bowls/living litter boxes has any desire to be Good.

[Coldwind]

I believe Belkar is now CN. At least his motivations.

If he was CE, he would have dreaming about whores stabbing whores as Roy stated.

I do not think his alignment will shift towards CG after this point.

[Kish]

I can see Belkar thinking Shajo would come back when ressurected by CG character or something.
Better Shajo than Shinjo.

[Kremlin KOA]

When has Belkar ever shown the slightest sign of wanting to be redeemed? His character development is not about about being good instead of evil. It's about moderating his impulses to be more acceptable to other people so they don't decide to get rid of him. I find it hard to believe that a man who turns his enemies into hats/chip bowls/living litter boxes has any desire to be Good.

Well my first big example would be here:
{Scrubbed image}

This is where Belkar performs an act of selfless good and then tries to hide it from Roy (Possibly because it was CG rather than LG (Very chaotic)

Also here:
{Scrubbed image}

This part shows Belkar talking to his cat, and chiding his cat for influencing his alignment toward good.

[EmperorSarda]

Okay apparently WoG says it was living world. Which suggests his ideal is kicking back and chillaxing with Shojo and cooking for his friends.


But there has been no indication that Belkar has ever sought to resurrect Shojo. Shojo is only in the illusion because of Mr. Scruffy, because the illusion draws upon all recipients, including house cats. It's like how Haley and Roy were at the wedding of Elan's parents even though that doesn't motivate either of them. Belkar only wants to be with Mr. Scruffy, and Mr. Scruffy wants to be with Shojo and Belkar. Hence why Shojo is there. There is nothing at all indicating any sort of redemption.


I believe Belkar is now CN. At least his motivations.


His motivations? His only motivation is being with Mr. Scruffy, and Mr. Scruffy is what pulls Shojo into the mix. Remember what the Deva said to Roy, that he was trying to be Lawful Good? Belkar isn't trying to be anything other than what he is, why should caring for Mr. Scruffy change his alignment? He's still a horrid little Halfling.



This part shows Belkar talking to his cat, and chiding his cat for influencing his alignment toward good.
Except 1 act of good does not change one's alignment. Not when everything else we've seen show him to be an evil little bugger.

[137beth]

His motivations? His only motivation is being with Mr. Scruffy, and Mr. Scruffy is what pulls Shojo into the mix. Remember what the Deva said to Roy, that he was trying to be Lawful Good? Belkar isn't trying to be anything other than what he is, why should caring for Mr. Scruffy change his alignment? He's still a horrid little Halfling.
If his only motivation is being with Mr. Scruffy, then his motivations are either CN or TN.

[EmperorSarda]

If his only motivation is being with Mr. Scruffy, then his motivations are either CN or TN.

Except alignment isn't based on motivation. It is based on how you do things. Such as killing anything that gets in his way, or even looks like might get in his way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)

What I meant about his motivations is that unlike Haley, and Roy who have some plans for after the Gate (Thieve's guild, good relations with Eugene, etc), Belkar has nothing motivating him, he isn't fighting for anything, he isn't trying to accomplish anything. He's just there for the kills. Which is why from what we saw in the illusion he was with Shojo, because beyond being with Scruffy, there is nothing in particular that Belkar is motivated to do. No one in particular that he wants to kill, no overall goals.

[Eerie]

Belkar thinks he's Chaotic God.

[pearl jam]

Oops. I thought I'd responded to the last post, but there was a whole following page. Nothing to see here.

[Eroktopopolis]

I'm not sure if anybody brought this up, but it is possible Belkar did join the others dream sequence. He dies and spends the afterlife cooking for Shojo and Scruffy.

[EmperorSarda]

I'm not sure if anybody brought this up, but it is possible Belkar did join the others dream sequence. He dies and spends the afterlife cooking for Shojo and Scruffy.

Except Belkar's illusion was entirely separate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15306490&postcount=11) from Elan, Roy's and Haley's.

[Kremlin KOA]

Except 1 act of good does not change one's alignment. Not when everything else we've seen show him to be an evil little bugger.

But it is a start.
Journey of a thousand miles and all that.
Hell, what acts of evil has Belkar done since the arena?
Well he did go along with V torturing the Kobold. Notably because he felt empathy for Mr Scruffy and felt the need to avenge the cat's injuries. Let me see if there are others.
*searches the archive*
Well By #860 I have found no more evil acts. But There is proof he has not reached CG (or any G) by that stage. Holy word still works on him. So, by that point he has not made it past CN. (Whether he has escaped CE is not proven by that strip)
#862 has Belkar using the deafness as an excuse to finish off Nale without Elan getting a final battle. Definitely Chaotic, but I am not sure if killing a villain in battle is evil.


Also what good acts since then.
#814 Knocking into the Kobold seneschal and causing the guy to 'lose' the paperwork on Haley's dad. This made him look like an idiot to Tarquin, thus gaining him nothing and costing a chance to get a spot in the palace. All to help save 2 old guys he barely knew. The same old guys he talked into saving the bounty hunters.
#879 He keeps moving toward Roy to warn him, even though just finding a hole to crawl into would likely be safer.
#881 Risked his life to make Roy angry enough to keep going. Remember this is the same Roy who was about to kill him 5 minutes previously.

So that is 1 new evil act (one shared by V and Haley) against 3 new good acts; 2 of which were serious risks of self sacrifice.

I would say there is solid ground to suggest a slide to CN by now.

[Burner28]

It's hardly worth a slide to CN. In order to truly show that Belkar has changed, he would need to repent for his past actions.

[EmperorSarda]

But it is a start.

Maybe. But the why is the most important thing. He didn't save Enor and Ganji because he cared for them or thought what they were going through was unfair. He just took Roy's words literally about it looking like someone fighting his own puppy, and decided to rescue them.



Hell, what acts of evil has Belkar done since the arena?

I'm not sure an alignment change can happen so quickly in less than a week. Especially when we see no change in outlook.


Also what good acts since then.
#814 Knocking into the Kobold seneschal and causing the guy to 'lose' the paperwork on Haley's dad. This made him look like an idiot to Tarquin, thus gaining him nothing and costing a chance to get a spot in the palace. All to help save 2 old guys he barely knew. The same old guys he talked into saving the bounty hunters.
Not sure how much Belkar did this to help the Starshines rather than annoy Tarquin.

#879 He keeps moving toward Roy to warn him, even though just finding a hole to crawl into would likely be safer.
What other option does he have, where is safer? He's been trying to be more of a team member. Telling the others is the only thing he could do.


#881 Risked his life to make Roy angry enough to keep going. Remember this is the same Roy who was about to kill him 5 minutes previously.
This is probably the best example of a good act, because he gets Roy to keep going. But I don't think it is alignment change worthy. After all, Roy's record is spotty, but he is still lawful good.


I would say there is solid ground to suggest a slide to CN by now.
I think that is unlikely. We still have more to see. I think if Belkar were to ever change his alignment, it would be due to Durkon sacrificing himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html) for him. Because it isn't something Belkar would ever have been capable of imagining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html).

[Kremlin KOA]

It's hardly worth a slide to CN. In order to truly show that Belkar has changed, he would need to repent for his past actions.

#881 last panel.
EDIT:
Also that is not necessarily true. Thing with "show, don't tell" in storytelling, is you show the actions.
Belkar has shown willingness to risk being killed to help Roy in a non violent way.
Differences between him and Miko are twofold. First, she was lawful, he is chaotic. LG and CG have very different requirements to get in, after all. The second difference is he is aware that his evil ways are/were evil. He has also shown awareness that the cat is altering his behaviour and alignment. Miko was certain that the path leading to her fall was righteous and true. That is a big difference.

[Kremlin KOA]

Maybe. But the why is the most important thing. He didn't save Enor and Ganji because he cared for them or thought what they were going through was unfair. He just took Roy's words literally about it looking like someone fighting his own puppy, and decided to rescue them.
He also did not do it for Roy's approval. These were peopel that had screwed Belkar over and he helped them for no other reason than he believed it was what Mr Scruffy wuld want him to do.



I'm not sure an alignment change can happen so quickly in less than a week. Especially when we see no change in outlook.
Miko's took just a few seconds. Remember she doesn't even get into the LG heaven in the end.



Not sure how much Belkar did this to help the Starshines rather than annoy Tarquin.
Or because he knew it was what Roy wanted? All 3 are plausible motives.


What other option does he have, where is safer? He's been trying to be more of a team member. Telling the others is the only thing he could do.
Safer: Hide. Sneak out when the LG are attacking the OOTS. Possibly even offer to change sides for some restoration spells. Those are the options available to CE people. He tried fitting in, at first, to get an advantage. Now fitting in is likely to kill him.


This is probably the best example of a good act, because he gets Roy to keep going. But I don't think it is alignment change worthy. After all, Roy's record is spotty, but he is still lawful good.
Roy may be LG, but LG people kill as excessive punishment for mistaken ideas in OOTSworld... especially if the murderee is defenseless and owns a cat named Mr Scruffy



I think that is unlikely. We still have more to see. I think if Belkar were to ever change his alignment, it would be due to Durkon sacrificing himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html) for him. Because it isn't something Belkar would ever have been capable of imagining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html).

I reiterate my point about journey, but agree that seeing the Durkon thing was a very large step on the path. I think he might just maybe be up to CN from the cumulative effect of those points. But maybe he needs one or two more acts.

[EmperorSarda]

Miko's took just a few seconds. Remember she doesn't even get into the LG heaven in the end.
Umm... Where does it state she doesn't get into Lawful Good heaven?


Or because he knew it was what Roy wanted? All 3 are plausible motives. Helping Roy doesn't equate a good act either, when it is all a ploy to get Roy and the others off his back.


Safer: Hide. Sneak out when the LG are attacking the OOTS. Possibly even offer to change sides for some restoration spells. Those are the options available to CE people. He tried fitting in, at first, to get an advantage. Now fitting in is likely to kill him. All chaotic evil people are people willing to jump ship, especially to those he does not like, such as Nale?


Roy may be LG, but LG people kill as excessive punishment for mistaken ideas in OOTSworld... especially if the murderee is defenseless and owns a cat named Mr Scruffy. No they don't. Miko falling for killing Shojo specifically shows that the act was not good at all. And Roy didn't strike. Which makes all the difference.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Miko's alignment probably didn't change. There is no evidence of that, anyway. She Fell because she wilfully committed a evil act.

Soon said she doesn't get to be a paladin again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) He says nothing about alignment, directly or indirectly.

[Oko and Qailee]

Umm... Where does it state she doesn't get into Lawful Good heaven?.

I think what he's referring to. Is that Soon mentioned that Windstriker would have to "visit Miko" implying different plane. But upon rereading it, I would say she's probably still LG, just not a Paladin.

In the case of Belkar, I wouldn't say he is CG or even CN. But I would argue that he is moving away from CE.

"But he feeds intestines"... of a slaver. Yes the motivation behind anything he does now, behind all his good acts, is a cat. However, think about this, the primary motivation of a lot of good aligned characters is their god. Yes, some people are good for goodness sake, but others have the motivation of their god to encourage them to do good deeds.

IMO alignment is something determined by both the result and the motivation. If Belkar is willing to save the world for that cat (and as a result millions of people), would you really say he didn't do something good? Keep in mind, Roy originally wanted to beat Zykon (for the first 100+ strips) solely because of the Blood Oath, despite this he is still LG (obviously you're going to point out other reasons, but my point is motivation for an action is only part of the equation).

I think Belkar has lately been behaving more CN than CE. He wants to help the party, protect the cat, hes freed ganji and enor.

In contrast, he fed intestines to a slaver and hurt a kobold, both evil characters (even G characters hurt evil ones, just not as brutally).

That being said, he is still CE IMO, he has a lifetime of debt to repay before he deserves and sort of happy ending.

[EmperorSarda]

"But he feeds intestines"... of a slaver. Yes the motivation behind anything he does now, behind all his good acts, is a cat.

How is feeding anyone the intestines of another a good act? Yeah, he did it because the soldier was making fun of him about Scruffy, but it isn't a good act.


IMO alignment is something determined by both the result and the motivation. If Belkar is willing to save the world for that cat (and as a result millions of people), would you really say he didn't do something good?
The end result, saving the world from destruction is a good thing. But everything in between doesn't show he is good.


In contrast, he fed intestines to a slaver and hurt a kobold, both evil characters (even G characters hurt evil ones, just not as brutally).
Harming an evil creature is not a good act.

[Kremlin KOA]

Miko's alignment probably didn't change. There is no evidence of that, anyway. She Fell because she wilfully committed a evil act.

Soon said she doesn't get to be a paladin again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) He says nothing about alignment, directly or indirectly.

As Oko guessed, I was referring to the Windstriker visiting comment. Given that we know all LGs go to the same heaven, Windstriker would not need to visit an LG friend in the afterlife... they could share a dwelling.


Oko, an interesting question to consider. How long would you think Belkar has to stop behaving in an evil manner for 'Detect Evil' to no longer pick him up?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Um, Horace visited Roy's mom further down the mountain.

That is quite a limb to be going out on for one possible interpretation of one word. Claiming that's evidence she's not Lawful Good is... not a strong case.

[Kremlin KOA]

Um, Horace visited Roy? That is quite a limb to be going out on for one possible interpretation of one word.
Not that much of a stretch. I somehow doubt that Soon would not have suggested living with the horse if it were possible. Consider that it will be some time before that horse can be assigned to another paladin. (either the time limits on rez, or true rez) because if Miko does come back from the dead and redeems, then she gets Windstriker back. Thus entities of Law and Good would not assign the horse to another until then.


Harming an evil creature is not a good act.

Nor is it necessarily an evil act.

[Kish]

As Oko guessed, I was referring to the Windstriker visiting comment. Given that we know all LGs go to the same heaven, Windstriker would not need to visit an LG friend in the afterlife... they could share a dwelling.
Windstriker is not dead. When Windstriker goes to any afterlife, it's visiting.

[137beth]

The end result, saving the world from destruction is a good thing. But everything in between doesn't show he is good.
So he's pursuing good ends (saving the world) with chaotic methods (killing people) because of neutral motives. That just screams "chaotic neutral." Sounds like you are confusing "chaotic" with "evil."

[rodneyAnonymous]

He's not pursuing that end. Belkar doesn't care about the gates. That his actions might have a side effect of saving the world does not reflect on his alignment at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

So he's pursuing good ends (saving the world) with chaotic methods (killing people) because of neutral motives. That just screams "chaotic neutral." Sounds like you are confusing "chaotic" with "evil."

I think you are the one who is confused. If your only solution to things is killing, that's not Chaotic, that's Evil.

[137beth]

I think you are the one who is confused. If your only solution to things is killing, that's not Chaotic, that's Evil.

So it is good motives with evil methods. Now the question is: are methods or motives the determining factor in alignment? Answer: There isn't one. Someone on the hombrew forum suggested separating methods and motives and giving everyone two different alignments. But by RAW, there is no definitive answer. EmperorSarda seems convinced that the methods used are what "really counts." In my games, motives are what is counted. Neither option is inherently "wrong". Belkar's motives, help Mr. Scruffy, are very clearly not evil. His methods, for the most part, have been on the evil side. Whether he would be considered evil in your game depends entirely on which factor you consider more important. You might notice that Roy's only solution to his goal "kill Xykon" is...killing. Are you going to stand there and tell me that that is evil?

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't think Belkar has any Good motives.

[137beth]

I don't think Belkar has any Good motives.

I thought his primary motivation was to protect the cat (neutral, possibly leaning good, but not by much),
which requires his secondary goal: save the world (with a cat in it), which is good. I'd say that would make his motive component of his alignment chaotic neutral.

What do you think his motives are?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Saving the world is definitely not his goal. It might be an incidental result of his actions, but goals and pursuits require intentionality. As far as I know Belkar has never expressed any intent to save the world.


What do you think his motives are?

I guess something to do with gaining XP and loot?

[EmperorSarda]

What do you think his motives are?

Based on what we can see from the illusion, the only thing that seems to matter is being with Mr. Scruffy. If he had any sort of motivation about saving the world beyond a passing fancy, beyond being on the team because it is the only job he could find, any sort of motivation about the gates then he would have been lumped in with the others' illusion, since that was featured in their illusion.

Belkar has no driving goals, he has nothing that motivates him. He just wanders and kills what looks like might get in his way. If there was something stronger than just being with Scruffy, the glimpse into his illusion would have shown it.

[137beth]

Based on what we can see from the illusion, the only thing that seems to matter is being with Mr. Scruffy. If he had any sort of motivation about saving the world beyond a passing fancy, beyond being on the team because it is the only job he could find, any sort of motivation about the gates then he would have been lumped in with the others' illusion, since that was featured in their illusion.
So any inkling whatsoever means he gets lumped in with the others' illusion? What possible evidence from the comic lead you to deduce this? Given that we have almost no information about how the illusion trap works, I'm rather surprised that you seem so confident in your understanding of how it works. I agree that Belkar's primary motivation is Mr. Scruffy. But how the heck are you making the jump from "Belkar wasn't included with everyone else' illusion" to "Belkar cannot possibly have any inkling whatsoever in any way of any sort of desire at all to protect the gates.":smallconfused: Does "wanting to protect the gates" somehow trump every other possible desire? Or are you just making up the mechanics of the illusion as you go along?


Belkar has no driving goals, he has nothing that motivates him. He just wanders and kills what looks like might get in his way. If there was something stronger than just being with Scruffy, the glimpse into his illusion would have shown it.
So you say that first his driving goal is to be with his cat, then he has no driving goals whatsoever, then it is the cat again. Putting aside the direct contradiction...

the glimpse into his illusion would have shown it.
You saw two panels, so you assume that it must contain everything there could possibly be about a character's motivation:smallconfused::smallconfused:!
So by your standards, the first two panels of strip 888 imply that Roy's only motivations are not being late and getting asked for autographs, since if he had any inkling of any other motivations whatsoever, then those two panels must have shown it. Oh wait, but panels 5 and 6 of strip 886 tell you that Roy has no motivations whatsoever except his desire to be hit by a meteor swarm and see Belkar die, since otherwise it would be shown in those two panels.
So let me ask you: Do you really think that seeing two panels automatically guarantees that you know everything about a character?

EDIT: Oops, I meant to put this at the end:
Let's assume that you are right, and that Belkar's only motivation is to protect and care for Mr. Scruffy. That is not evil. It could be argued that it is good (protecting other sentient beings is good), but I think it is more properly neutral. So what in there makes you think Belkar has evil motives?

[EmperorSarda]

So any inkling whatsoever means he gets lumped in with the others' illusion? What possible evidence from the comic lead you to deduce this? Given that we have almost no information about how the illusion trap works, I'm rather surprised that you seem so confident in your understanding of how it works.
Umm, because what The Giant said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15306490#post15306490) goes hand in hand with what Haley and others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) said, that's why. It is based upon motivations and dreams. It's easy to extrapolate from there.


I agree that Belkar's primary motivation is Mr. Scruffy. But how the heck are you making the jump from "Belkar wasn't included with everyone else' illusion" to "Belkar cannot possibly have any inkling whatsoever in any way of any sort of desire at all to protect the gates.":smallconfused:
Because if protecting the gates was a major motivation for Belkar, then his goals would have coincided more with the Haley, Elan's and Roy's. If his desire to protect the gates stemmed more from just being a good teammate, then such would have been shown.


You saw two panels, so you assume that it must contain everything there could possibly be about a character's motivation:smallconfused::smallconfused:!
I'm also going off Belkar's backstory PDF, as he just was wandering. I'm going off the entirety of the comic, especially where it is hinted at that Belkar is there for internal conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) and some comedy.

Let's look at it another way. Throughout the comic various motivations have been discovered.
With Roy it has been the blood oath, about family, with a dash of fighter insecurity.
Haley, hers has been the thieves guild and rescuing her father, plus being with Elan.
With Elan, his goals have been family oriented, with how Nale has shown up repeatedly, his childlike nature, with wanting his parents back together.
V, as s/he asked the oracle, it was about ultimate power. And now redemption.
Durkon, he has hated the human lands and longs to return home.
Belkar, just like killing things. Along with cooking. And caring for Mr. Scruffy.
Beyond those two, he's had no recurring villain such as Haley with Crystal and Elan and Nale. He's had nothing driving him beyond trying to get the party off his back by being "Employee of the month".

There has been nothing in the comic ever that has shown any sort of goal that Belkar wants to achieve. It isn't just the latest strips. It is everything the comic has ever shown about Belkar. Scruffy is the only real influence on Belkar, the only change in his behavior. Jokingly, you could say that Belkar is Scruffy's animal companion.


EDIT: Oops, I meant to put this at the end:
Let's assume that you are right, and that Belkar's only motivation is to protect and care for Mr. Scruffy. That is not evil. It could be argued that it is good (protecting other sentient beings is good), but I think it is more properly neutral. So what in there makes you think Belkar has evil motives?

It's not the illusion that makes me think Belkar is evil. Because the Illusion doesn't lump people together based on alignment. It lumps them together based on goals and motivations.

I base Belkar being evil because everything in the comic reinforces it. Any sympathy we are feeling for Belkar, the illusion, kicking Roy to go on, is so Belkar's death becomes tragic.

[Kremlin KOA]

I base Belkar being evil because everything in the comic reinforces it. Any sympathy we are feeling for Belkar, the illusion, kicking Roy to go on, is so Belkar's death becomes tragic.

That word right there. That is the key to all this. Belkar's death would be no tragedy if there was no path of redemption for him to be walking when it happens.
It would have been comedy to see Belkar die while caring about nobody (like when Miko was about to kill him).
Now, as Belkar is starting to get his **** together, help people, and become a better person. Now it would be a tragedy.
But it would be not tragic at all if Belkar was not growing and redeeming.

[EmperorSarda]

That word right there. That is the key to all this. Belkar's death would be no tragedy if there was no path of redemption for him to be walking when it happens.
It would have been comedy to see Belkar die while caring about nobody (like when Miko was about to kill him).
Now, as Belkar is starting to get his **** together, help people, and become a better person. Now it would be a tragedy.
But it would be not tragic at all if Belkar was not growing and redeeming.

I disagree about the redeeming part, because apart from the one self inflicting comment about the only good thing he does is hurt people, Belkar hasn't been remorseful. I believe his growth is so he is more than the cheap laughs guy, the one dimensional guy. It's so there is a little more depth, but also so we care for him. Maybe there is a sliver of a chance that Belkar becomes less evil, but that seems like a very remote possibility. I think the true purpose of this is so that we as a readership feel sorrow, that Belkar's death means something more than just some pre-determined event.

That is what I think is going on, that The Giant is making it so Belkar's death actually means something to us.

[Michaeler]

I could well believe that Belkar's death will end with him discovering that he's going to the Chaotic Neutral afterlife and protesting that no way is he Neutral! Probably something at the end actually provides the final push out of CE.

[Kremlin KOA]

I disagree about the redeeming part, because apart from the one self inflicting comment about the only good thing he does is hurt people, Belkar hasn't been remorseful. I believe his growth is so he is more than the cheap laughs guy, the one dimensional guy. It's so there is a little more depth, but also so we care for him. Maybe there is a sliver of a chance that Belkar becomes less evil, but that seems like a very remote possibility. I think the true purpose of this is so that we as a readership feel sorrow, that Belkar's death means something more than just some pre-determined event.

That is what I think is going on, that The Giant is making it so Belkar's death actually means something to us.

But why should we feel for someone who is only faking growth? If you are right, then that means Belkar is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing, and we should cheer his demise.
Additionally, why do you think the remorse thing is a necessary component? Is "That is who I was, I am not going to be that person any more." less worthy of redemption than "I was such a horrible person!"?

[EmperorSarda]

But why should we feel for someone who is only faking growth?
I didn't say that he is faking growth. I think he is experiencing some actual character growth. I just don't think his growth is toward a new alignment.


Additionally, why do you think the remorse thing is a necessary component?I'm not sure it's necessary, just more of what I think The Giant is doing. We've known Belkar is going to die for a while now, we know it can be any comic now. And up until the arena, Durkon's Death, and now the Illusion, it seemed a foregone conclusion. But with these new insights, this little growth, there are those who are beginning to care, who tear up now. I think The Giant is trying to make it so Belkar's death isn't some cheap joke of a foregone conclusion, but a death that will be tragic to the readers.


Is "That is who I was, I am not going to be that person any more." less worthy of redemption than "I was such a horrible person!"?
Umm... mostly yes. Self-recrimination is different than an actual desire to change, to atone. We've seen Belkar do self recrimination. But I don't think there is a strong case of actually wanting to be different.

[F.Harr]

In the latest comic we see Belkar/Scruffy's happy ending. Apparently they did die (although it's unknown how) and is with Shojo and Scruffy. However, Belkar is evil, and knows he's evil. So why is he there?

It's possible that in his mind he's done enough "good" acts that he would be permitted into the CG afterlife, even if he is rotten inside. Belkar is dumb, so he might believe that he's eligible.

Or Belkar never died in his dream, and Shojo has been resurrected somehow. But his wake up line implies he thinks he's dead.

Because he and Mr. Scruffy like the wacky old dude.

[Burner28]

#881 last panel.

Nope. You seemed to be ignoring the fact he even admitted his evilness and frnakly if the last panel truly was trying to be indicative of him changing he would have had an unhappy expression.


EDIT:

Also that is not necessarily true. Thing with "show, don't tell" in storytelling, is you show the actions.
Belkar has shown willingness to risk being killed to help Roy in a non violent way.
Differences between him and Miko are twofold. First, she was lawful, he is chaotic. LG and CG have very different requirements to get in, after all. The second difference is he is aware that his evil ways are/were evil. He has also shown awareness that the cat is altering his behaviour and alignment. Miko was certain that the path leading to her fall was righteous and true. That is a big difference.
Agreed. Belkar hasn't shown that he has truly "changed" into Neutral, considering the treatment he gave of the prisoners, which, in comic ti8me, was not really that far away. And frankly, considering all the Evil that he has done, he would actually hacve to try to attempt to change, and that includes admitting that all his past wrongs were that, wrongs. As he hasn't shown that, he is still CE. And frankly, to think CG characters have lax standards is to imply CG is less G than LG which is wrong. If Roy was going to be sent to the True Neutral bin for abandoning Elan, what chance does Belkar have of being accepted into Neutrality?

[ericgrau]

I believe the joke was that Scruffy influenced the illusion more than Belkar did, so that's why Shojo was there. Scruffy doesn't even know about alignments. Who knows, like Elan given time Belkar might have figured out an inconsistency and broken the illusion. One thing for sure is that even knowing that he's CE, he wouldn't fantasize about eternal torture or w/e happens to CE people.

It's also pretty clear that any character change Belkar had immediately from the mark of justice is an act. In that he openly discussed this scam with the imaginary(?) Shojo. At best you could try to argue that more may have happened after that.

I would guess that Scruffy's greater influence over the illusion comes from Belkar's concern for Scruffy.

[brionl]

Windstriker is not dead. When Windstriker goes to any afterlife, it's visiting.

Ever since 3.5, Paladin's mounts are extraplanar magical beasts that are native to a "celestial realm". They are only summoned to the mortal realm for 2 hours per level.

[Porthos]

In regards to Miko's destination in the afterlife, the important comment for me always was:

"Even now, we are fading to the Celestial Realms. We will usher you to your destination as well."

The fact that Soon says 'your destination as well' could be read as an implict statement that Miko isn't headed there. Otherwise he would could have phrased his statement differently.

Iron clad proof? Hardly. But decent theories have been built on weaker ground. The WIndstrider thing about 'visiting' instead of being with her can be seen as supoporting evidence (if weak).

[rodneyAnonymous]

The fact that Soon says 'your destination as well' could be read as an implict statement that Miko isn't headed there.

It can also be read that Miko is headed somewhere else on the same plane.

I know you said it's not ironclad, but I don't think it's even close. What Soon said does not at all imply (any more strongly than contradictory interpretations) her destination is on a different plane.

[Tragak]

Could I put forth a wild theory that The Giant specifically avoided naming Miko's destination (Celestia, Arcadia, Mechanus, Archeron, Baator, Gehanna...) so that the audience would be able to come to their own conclusions?

Sure, he's not indebted to the audience to the point where he has to avoid making ANY hard decisions about how his world works - lest somebody gets mad that he and they disagree - but could this be one of the less important parts?

It seemed to me that the important part was Miko committing sufficient Evil to fall from Divine blessing, and that whether she turned out to be Evil, Neutral, or somehow technically Good overall was just a fascinating side question.

[Porthos]

It can also be read that Miko is headed somewhere else on the same plane.

Then he could have said "We will take you there as well". With 'there' being the Celestial Realms proper. Perhaps adding, "Before we move on to our own abode on the Mountain" to make it clear she ain't hanging out in Paladinville.

As Tragak said, it's ambiguious. Probably on purpose.

I read it as saying that Miko ain't headed to Celestia. The fact that I think she finally leaped over the LG/LN fence she was straddling for so long probably helps. :smallwink:

[pearl jam]

Then he could have said "We will take you there as well". With 'there' being the Celestial Realms proper. Perhaps adding, "Before we move on to our own abode on the Mountain" to make it clear she ain't hanging out in Paladinville.

As Tragak said, it's ambiguious. Probably on purpose.

I read it as saying that Miko ain't headed to Celestia. The fact that I think she finally leaped over the LG/LN fence she was straddling for so long probably helps. :smallwink:

I can see it as ambiguous if pointed out, but this was certainly the way I read those words the first time, as well.

[Kish]

Ever since 3.5, Paladin's mounts are extraplanar magical beasts that are native to a "celestial realm". They are only summoned to the mortal realm for 2 hours per level.
The assumption that Windstriker would live with Miko if she had died a paladin at the ripe old age of 26 presumes that paladin's mounts serve one paladin each and then retire forever, which seems quite weird to me.

By my reading, Windstriker is probably another paladin's mount now. He will visit Miko--wherever she is--as much as his duties permit, and he is able to visit her at least sometimes, which means it probably isn't the Nine Hells.

[Copperdragon]

A Paladin's Mount could be more a concept than an actually summoned physical being (even from another plane). In that way, every Paladin forms his or her own mount from "belief". The mount is not there and get summoned, but "takes form".

In that way, every mount is unique and as it's based more on belief that physque, it could "retire" as well when the Paladin dies. At least up until the point the Paladin moves on in his or her afterlife. Maybe the mount (if formed from belief or if it's an actual outsider makes no difference here) comes along for the first two, three stages on the mountain, but then starts to stay behind (and either dissolves in some way or is free to get summoned again).

[Ghost Nappa]

But why should we feel for someone who is only faking growth? If you are right, then that means Belkar is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing, and we should cheer his demise.
Additionally, why do you think the remorse thing is a necessary component? Is "That is who I was, I am not going to be that person any more." less worthy of redemption than "I was such a horrible person!"?


Agreed. Belkar hasn't shown that he has truly "changed" into Neutral, considering the treatment he gave of the prisoners, which, in comic ti8me, was not really that far away. And frankly, considering all the Evil that he has done, he would actually hacve to try to attempt to change, and that includes admitting that all his past wrongs were that, wrongs. As he hasn't shown that, he is still CE. And frankly, to think CG characters have lax standards is to imply CG is less G than LG which is wrong. If Roy was going to be sent to the True Neutral bin for abandoning Elan, what chance does Belkar have of being accepted into Neutrality?


I didn't say that he is faking growth. I think he is experiencing some actual character growth. I just don't think his growth is toward a new alignment.

I'm not sure it's necessary, just more of what I think The Giant is doing. We've known Belkar is going to die for a while now, we know it can be any comic now. And up until the arena, Durkon's Death, and now the Illusion, it seemed a foregone conclusion. But with these new insights, this little growth, there are those who are beginning to care, who tear up now. I think The Giant is trying to make it so Belkar's death isn't some cheap joke of a foregone conclusion, but a death that will be tragic to the readers.


Umm... mostly yes. Self-recrimination is different than an actual desire to change, to atone. We've seen Belkar do self recrimination. But I don't think there is a strong case of actually wanting to be different.


Belkar does not by any stretch of the imagination have any desire currently to change alignment. What HAS changed are his motivations. If you remember from just ten comics ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html): Belkar seems to be either annoyed or displeased in the last two panels. It's possible that the "Kill them all" mentality is no longer satisfactory for his motivation, or that he feels some sort of guilt about in the wake of Durkon's vampirification (Did I spell that right?).

It could also be due to the fact that he hasn't eaten recently, is pretty low on blood after being all but sucked dry by two vampires and becoming self-aware of the party dynamics involved with him.

Actually, it's probably a combination of everything. He could be on the first steps alignment change, but he's by no means gone anywhere. His reasons behind brutality have changed from "convenient to kill" to "This punk is trying to hurt Scruffy" but he's just as brutal as he has been in the past. If ANYTHING, this is a change towards Neutral Evil and Lawful Evil more than Chaotic Neutral; and it is a small one. Why? Because they broke the one "rule" Belkar has: "Don't harm/threaten Scruffy or me."

[Syncro]

No he thinks he's doing pretty damn good pretending to be. Belkar has admitted several times he's an evil little bastard proudly. While he still enjoys being evil, he's sorta sick of people accounting his claims as instantly incredilous and wants to have some credibility so he's in esscence like Shojo told him to, "toning down" his original image.

[Syncro]

It's not the afterlife. It's Shojo's quarters, as previously seen in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs.

Belkar's dream was entirely separate from that of the rest of the Order, and he never died in his. Instead, he saw whatever improbable string of events would be required to justify Shojo's resurrection so that Mr. Scruffy could get tummy rubs, because that's what Mr. Scruffy wanted.

I think it's also a double meaning because like Elan's wishes his dreams are probably never going to happen, I mean belkar redeeming himself is BS considering that he is sadist in nature(and that will never change because otherwise that woundn't be Belkar), even some sadists have loved ones. I predict belkar is still going to be chaotic evil but he's going to hide it enough to properly form realtionships in society

[Zweisteine]

I suspect that Belkar may now be chaotic neutral. I suspect that alignment doesn't weigh past and current actions equally. It weighs your current mindset the most heavily, and leaves your past further behind (but entering the afterlife does weigh all equally, so Belkar still only qualifies to enter the OOTS world's Hell).

I suspect the cause of the change, or at least the final trigger, was witnesses Durkon's noble sacrifice. Seeing a friend give his life without hesitation to save him probably was a major shock to his morality center.

And don't forget that life-changing moments are a thing in fantasy stories.

[EmperorSarda]

I suspect the cause of the change, or at least the final trigger, was witnesses Durkon's noble sacrifice. Seeing a friend give his life without hesitation to save him probably was a major shock to his morality center.

And don't forget that life-changing moments are a thing in fantasy stories.

Which usually take time and reflection. Belkar hasn't had either.

[Zweisteine]

Except that it could have been the final push. Mr. Scruffy taught Belkar to love, and he truly felt Durkon's loss.

The change has been going on for some time. I suspect that he might have changed just now. He might be on the very edge of it, but he was in the same illusion as Mr. Scruffy, who must be neutral.

Unless, of course, Girard set up a combined Lotus Eater Spell for neutral and evil characters...

[rodneyAnonymous]

We don't know that the separation is based on alignment. (And if Haley's speculation is correct, then that is unlikely: people of the same alignment often have different goals.)

[Conradine]

I think Belkar was simply hallucinating.

And he's still CE as ever. Just a bit smarter and with a soft side for his cat.

[Lotana]

" Death is a disease! It's like any other... there's a cure. A cure! And I will find it. "
- Tom Creo, The Fountain

Considering what you did to this thread from 2013, that signature suits you very well.

Alas some things should remain dead. Like Tsukiko tragically learnt the hard way: Undead are not special and liable to eat you.

[Dellis]

Considering what you did to this thread from 2013, that signature suits you very well.

Alas some things should remain dead. Like Tsukiko tragically learnt the hard way: Undead are not special and liable to eat you.

Shouldn't the spoilered quote be... uhm, under spoilers? It's not a thread specifically to discuss that, and not all people have read all the comic.

[Ron Miel]

Not really. We discuss the comic here, with the assumption that participants have read up to the current strip. If we have to consider there might be newbies then that completely restricts anything we can discuss.

It's really up to the reader to take care. If they choose to read a discussion of a comic/ movie/ book they haven't seen, and get spoilered, then really it's their own fault.

[Peelee]

I mean, not to sound mean about it, but this is the "Order of the Stick" subforum, which is explicitly defined as "A forum for discussion of Rich Burlew's stick figure fantasy webcomic."

If anyone hasn't read up to date on it, reading random topics in here will very likely lead to general unhappiness very quickly.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, at that point, you're expecting a ridiculous amount of catering. It's a discussion forum for the comic. At a certain point the responsibility for avoiding spoilers is on the individual reader, not everybody else. Given that discussions are almost exclusively focused on recent strips, I don't understand how the forum would even function if we had to avoid everything except the names of the core six members outside of spoilers. Where are you drawing the line? What strip? Is Tarquin's face a spoiler? Is Nale? You see how it gets a little out of hand unless you assume the reader has taken the responsibility of making sure they're up to date. Everything would be in spoilers. The strip you're referring to was four years ago.

Even aside from spoilers, how would they participate in the discussion? Imagine discussing Miko without knowing where her story ends up. Or wondering how Haley will cure her speech problem. Or not knowing key details about Durkon's past. Or not knowing what this "gate" everyone keeps talking about is. :mitd:

[The Giant]

One, please do not post to threads from three years ago. Check the date of the last post in a thread before adding to it.

Two, we do not require that anyone hide or mark spoilers for events from posted comics, up through and including the most recent one. It's a forum for discussing the comic that is freely available on the same website; everyone should assume that all readers are up to speed. We do suggest that people mark spoilers for material not posted online, such as the prequel books On the Origin of PCs and Start of Darkness or the Kickstarter bonus stories.

Thread locked for necromancy.