[3.5] Improved Trip

[dndnewbie]

I have been playing The Temple of Elemental Evil cRPG, which uses 3.5 CORE rules, and I decided to create a new party with two barbarians.

While looking for an optimized CORE build for the barbarian class, I stumbled upon a post written by Eldariel back in 2009 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6165732&postcount=3). There, he advices the original poster to get Improved Trip.

In this game, I can use the Improved Trip feat to trip an oponnent with any melee weapon, but after spending some time reading the d20srd site, I understood that by using that feat with any sort of melee weapon, I was exploiting the rules. That is because there are some specific weapons with trip attributes, like the halberd, the flail, the famous spiked-chain, etc.

So, as I understand it, if I wanted to create a barbarian with Improved Trip, I would have to use a weapon like a halberd instead of a greataxe in order to benefit from the feat. But it seems that not everyone agrees with this point of view: some suggest that you can trip an enemy using your foot, or use a free action to take one of your hands off the two handed weapon, trip your oponnent, then use another free action to wield the weapon and attack him.

So, how exactly do you interpret this rule? Should a barbarian with a greataxe be able to trip an oponnent without any cost?

EDIT: Please read my second post. This first post was a big mess.

[Rubik]

You can use Improved Trip with any melee weapon, but there are some weapons that allow you to trip anyway (and a few that grant bonuses to do so). However, they don't allow you to make a free follow-up attack after, so the feat is still excellent to have.

[Seharvepernfan]

You can use Improved Trip with any melee weapon, but there are some weapons that allow you to trip anyway (and a few that grant bonuses to do so). However, they don't allow you to make a free follow-up attack after, so the feat is still excellent to have.

This is incorrect, unless this ToEE thing has different rules.

In 3.5, you can trip while unarmed, or you can trip with a weapon that allows trip attacks, not just any weapon.

You might be thinking of disarm, in which case you can disarm with any weapon, though some weapons grant a bonus.

[Flickerdart]

This is incorrect, unless this ToEE thing has different rules.

In 3.5, you can trip while unarmed, or you can trip with a weapon that allows trip attacks, not just any weapon.

You might be thinking of disarm, in which case you can disarm with any weapon, though some weapons grant a bonus.
Not quite right either. While tripping is normally an unarmed attack, you're still free to make it while wielding a weapon. The advantage conferred by tripping with a trip weapon is that you don't need Improved Unarmed Strike to avoid AoO (plus a bunch of them have reach so that's nice).

[TuggyNE]

Not quite right either. While tripping is normally an unarmed attack, you're still free to make it while wielding a weapon. The advantage conferred by tripping with a trip weapon is that you don't need Improved Unarmed Strike to avoid AoO (plus a bunch of them have reach so that's nice).

This is correct, although also note that, for obvious reasons, if you're wielding a reach weapon that isn't designed to trip, you can't make an unarmed touch attack against a foe your weapon threatens, so you can't trip.

Also, Improved Trip does not allow you to use a non-tripping weapon to trip.

[dndnewbie]

Due to my lack of knowledge about the basic rules, now I understand that my first post was a big mess. The main issue with my post was that I forgot that I can make a trip attack without Improved Trip.

So, let's forget about the Improved Trip feat for a moment. Here are some quotes from d20srd.org:

Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

Tripping with a Weapon
Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Scythe
A scythe can be used to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the scythe to avoid being tripped.

As I understood it, if my barbarian isn't wielding a weapon, he can try to trip an oponnent, but he will provoke an attack of opportunity while doing so. If he is wielding a Scythe, he can trip an oponnent without provoking an AoO.

But my barbarian wields a greataxe instead of a scythe. So, in the middle of the combat, he uses a free action to take his main hand off his weapon, and uses a standard action to trip his oponnent. This trip attack will provoke an AoO. Assuming that he dodged the AoO and that the trip attack succeeded, his oponnent is now prone, but he can't use a standard action to attack.

Now, my second barbarian is wielding a greatsword and has Improved Trip. In the middle of the combat, he uses a free action to take his main hand off his weapon, and uses a standard action to trip his oponnent.

Improved Trip

Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
So, my barbarian doesn't trigger the AoO. If he succeeds in his trip attempt, the enemy will now be prone, and he will be able to use a melee attack in the same round.

Is this correct?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Yes, that's correct.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You don't need a free hand to do an "unarmed trip" anyway. Sweep with your leg, for example. For another example, there's the Vingativa from Capoeira - position a leg behind the foe's leg to brace against, then twist your upper body, with shoulder/arm making contact so you knock them over the leg you placed behind them. No free hand needed.
http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/SGQE3YNBkzY/maxresdefault.jpg

Takedowns ultimately just require two opposing forces to throw someone off balance, there's a ton of ways to do them.

[dndnewbie]

Yes, that's correct.

You don't need a free hand to do an "unarmed trip" anyway. Sweep with your leg, for example.
I see. Now I understand better.

Thanks for the help.

[TuggyNE]

But my barbarian wields a greataxe instead of a scythe. So, in the middle of the combat, he uses a free action to take his main hand off his weapon, and uses a standard action to trip his oponnent. This trip attack will provoke an AoO. Assuming that he dodged the AoO and that the trip attack succeeded, his oponnent is now prone, but he can't use a standard action to attack.

Now, my second barbarian is wielding a greatsword and has Improved Trip. In the middle of the combat, he uses a free action to take his main hand off his weapon, and uses a standard action to trip his oponnent.

So, my barbarian doesn't trigger the AoO. If he succeeds in his trip attempt, the enemy will now be prone, and he will be able to use a melee attack in the same round.

Is this correct?

Those are both mostly correct; however, tripping is not a standard action, it's an attack, and you can make multiple trip attempts during a full attack, a trip attempt during an AoO, a trip attempt after a charge, and so on and so forth.

Also, because Improved Trip grants an extra attack "as if you hadn't used your attack", you might not need to attack with the same weapon you used for the trip attempt.

[RogueDM]

Yeah, if you intend on doing any tripping as a combat strategy invest in Improved Trip. I've never pursued tripping as a way of life myself, however I can see the value in it (at least while facing foes vulnerable to it). I had a rogue/fighter build based around fainting with the related Improved feat, and in single combat he could be devastating.

Additionally, I believe "Standing from Prone" also provokes an AoO, granting your barbarian a free shot at the not-yet-standing opponent.

[Rubik]

I had a rogue/fighter build based around fainting with the related Improved feat, and in single combat he could be devastating.You passed out at your enemies?

[Azernak0]

Core Only, Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is the best melee only, non caster. Depending what you mean as "Core Only", you can add a few things.

If Core Only also includes the SRD, considering it is all open source, you can make a pretty nifty Barbarian. I like Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian. It gives Improved Trip at level 2 and Whirling Frenzy is basically a different kind of Rage. It doesn't give bonus to Con but grants you the ability to Flurry with a weapon by taking -2 on all attacks and get an extra swing and grants +2 AC bonus.

[TuggyNE]

Additionally, I believe "Standing from Prone" also provokes an AoO, granting your barbarian a free shot at the not-yet-standing opponent.

It does, but doesn't give you another chance to trip, since the foe is still prone.

[Need_A_Life]

You passed out at your enemies?
Combat Panache is a tactical feat that lets you do just that. Makes enemies flat-footed (once/encounter, though).
But yeah, he probably meant "feint."

[Flickerdart]

Core Only, Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) is the best melee only, non caster. Depending what you mean as "Core Only", you can add a few things.

If Core Only also includes the SRD, considering it is all open source, you can make a pretty nifty Barbarian. I like Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian. It gives Improved Trip at level 2 and Whirling Frenzy is basically a different kind of Rage. It doesn't give bonus to Con but grants you the ability to Flurry with a weapon by taking -2 on all attacks and get an extra swing and grants +2 AC bonus.
ToEE was PHB only I think, I'm not sure it even included prestige classes.