3.5 To Hell and back

[Captainspork]

So I am currently running a game which, long story short, is likely headed into the planes of hell, specifically minauros and the city of Jangling Hiter. The condensed story: the PCs are rescuing a beloved NPC party member from an eternity of torture in Jangling Hiter.
Having never actually run a game in any of these planes, or in any evil-aligned plane for that matter, I was hoping to hear some experiences from PCs/DMs who have. How dark/evil were the games you were in there? Examples? That sort of thing.

I have some thoughts in mind, but I've always enjoyed the input I've gotten from fellow GitPers in the past. Also a quick question, it is my understanding that although cities in the nine hells are houses of evil (obviously?), planar travelers who enter these cities are not necessarily attacked on site. If someone could confirm/deny this that'd be great. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Deaxsa]

i would like to second all of these questions (i have a group that may enter hell sooner or later), and add another: how do you establish the setting of hell? or just, where can i find a description of the hells? how omnipresent is the blood war? what would it mean for the setting if the blood war was removed?

[Eslin]

Fiendish codex II has all the information you need

Blood war wise, removing it makes no sense. I mean you can, but then the primary activity and reason for existence of the nine hells is removed.

The blood war tends to be a back and forth, regularly spilling into Avernus (the first of the nine hells). Devils as a whole have two primary concerns - obtaining souls to rend down for divine power and fighting the blood war. The blood war is why they exist, but they're more interested in the power thing.

You're going to be attacked immediately and mercilessly if you go down there (barring a few locations, like dis) unless you obtain a letter of passage from a suitably high ranking devil or forge one.

[Xefas]

The best advice I can give? Be prepared for your players to refer to the city as "Jingling Hitler".

It will be funny. But I hope you weren't expecting them to be in awe of the place.

[Captainspork]

or just, where can i find a description of the hells?

I don't want to link anything in case it violates forum rules, but google "9 hells description d&d" and there are some good links I've found there. Hope that helps!


You're going to be attacked immediately and mercilessly if you go down there (barring a few locations, like dis) unless you obtain a letter of passage from a suitably high ranking devil or forge one.

Dis was the only city I read that really described the dynamic between planeswalkers and the resident devils. It sounds like being "welcome" is unique to the city of Dis from what you are saying.

[CRtwenty]

Blood war wise, removing it makes no sense. I mean you can, but then the primary activity and reason for existence of the nine hells is removed.

The Nine Hells exist as a metaphysical representation of Law and Evil. The Blood War has nothing to do with it except for the fact that the Lawful nature of its inhabitants causes them to come into conflict with the Chaos of the Abyss.


Devils as a whole have two primary concerns - obtaining souls to rend down for divine power and fighting the blood war. The blood war is why they exist, but they're more interested in the power thing.

Divine Power? They use them to create more Devils, or as currency. There's no divine power in souls. And the Blood War hasn't always been a thing. There has been peace between the Hells and the Abyss in the past. It's rare but it has occurred.


You're going to be attacked immediately and mercilessly if you go down there (barring a few locations, like dis) unless you obtain a letter of passage from a suitably high ranking devil or forge one.

Depends where you go. A lot of Devils can be warm and inviting if they think it will serve their needs. In many places going to Hell can be like entering the worlds pushiest used car lot. Especially to powerful adventurers who have enough power to make them very useful pawns to the Devils.

[GoatBoy]

Hell is the destination of deceased lawful evil souls, or people who sold their souls in exchange for some favour and didn't reclaim them before death.

Devils are notorious for their lawful nature. Since none of the PC's are dead, I presume, the devils don't have any excuse to simply kill them. Of course, the party is just as likely to be arrested for breaking any of Dis' countless bylaws, or being conscripted into the Blood War, or any other perceived offence, but the devils aren't just going to tear them apart as soon as they see them.

In fact, if any devil DID decide to pick a fight, it would be obligated to halt its attack until it could provide legal justification for its violent acts.

Devils aren't bloodthirsty animals, you're thinking of demons. Devils are more like unscrupulous bureaucrats, warmongering soldiers, or unprincipled politicians.

If a devil DID want the party's souls, odds are they'd need some third party to arbitrate and justify it.

[BWR]

The place is exactly as nasty as you want it to be. If you want it to be light-hearted and fun, fine. If you want to be mean and nasty and give the PCs nightmares, fine. As a rule, I would make the Lower Planes a bit worse than the playeres expect. They are supposed to be unpleasant.

Most importantly, the Lower Planes (the Outer Planes in general) are about flavor, not just difficult terrain with monsters. Get into the mindset of a lawful, evil group of creatures and think about how this should mess with pitiful interlopers in their domains.

If your players are expecting a few flames and the odd "die, puny mortal!" baatezu to come along to be slaughtered, they should be disappointed by a random passing guy nearly killing everyone, then flying off because he's late for a very important date. You don't have to detail the scenes of baby-rape that might occur in a game like Kult, the the place should not be fun.

1. the PCs should feel put upon and tested to their limit.
2. the vast majority of baatezu (and kytons, since it's Jangling Hiter) should not know the PCs are there or are interlopers. Either that or they don't care. It's somebody else's job to take care of them.
3. the more waves the PCs make (more deaths and fireballs thrown about), the bigger fish will come to see what the racket is.

There was at least one thread about something similar a while back. You might want to dig through the forums and find it.

[Cirrylius]

Devils are notorious for their lawful nature. Since none of the PC's are dead, I presume, the devils don't have any excuse to simply kill them. Of course, the party is just as likely to be arrested for breaking any of Dis' countless bylaws, or being conscripted into the Blood War, or any other perceived offence, but the devils aren't just going to tear them apart as soon as they see them.
In fact, if any devil DID decide to pick a fight, it would be obligated to halt its attack until it could provide legal justification for its violent acts.
Devils aren't bloodthirsty animals, you're thinking of demons. Devils are more like unscrupulous bureaucrats, warmongering soldiers, or unprincipled politicians.
If a devil DID want the party's souls, odds are they'd need some third party to arbitrate and justify it.
Devils aren't THAT lawful. They're often willing to stick a dagger in your back, as long as they can get away with it. They will hesitate beforehand, because respect for the law is very deeply ingrained in them, and because punishment is swift and brutal; they'd much prefer to have a pretext to stick it in your front, or better yet, sucker one of their enemies into risking themselves by sticking it in your front for them. Still, Devils WILL disobey the rules if the potential for gain outweighs the consequences by a wide enough margin. In Hell, it's the fastest (albeit by far the most dangerous) means of advancement.

Fortunately, the higher-up the fiend, the more they tend to advance themselves by gaming the system rather than breaking the rules, since by that point they stand to gain more by protecting the status quo, and more to lose by flaunting the rules. Also, Devils in company will tend to obey the letter of the law more than solitary Devils, both due to social pressure and the increased difficulty of keeping secrets in a group.

[Tragak]

Devils aren't THAT lawful. Actually, Devils are a physical embodiment of Lawfulness; that just means that group cohesion and self-discipline are all-important to them to get what they want (and since they are physical embodiments of Evil, what they want is to steal from, torture, and murder people from other groups).


They're often willing to stick a dagger in your back, as long as they can get away with it. They will hesitate beforehand, because respect for the law is very deeply ingrained in them, and because punishment is swift and brutal; they'd much prefer to have a pretext to stick it in your front, or better yet, sucker one of their enemies into risking themselves by sticking it in your front for them. Still, Devils WILL disobey the rules if the potential for gain outweighs the consequences by a wide enough margin. In Hell, it's the fastest (albeit by far the most dangerous) means of advancement.

Fortunately, the higher-up the fiend, the more they tend to advance themselves by gaming the system rather than breaking the rules, since by that point they stand to gain more by protecting the status quo, and more to lose by flaunting the rules. Also, Devils in company will tend to obey the letter of the law more than solitary Devils, both due to social pressure and the increased difficulty of keeping secrets in a group. This. Definitely this.

[Cirrylius]

Actually, Devils are a physical embodiment of Lawfulness; that just means that group cohesion and self-discipline are all-important to them to get what they want (and since they are physical embodiments of Evil, what they want is to steal from, torture, and murder people from other groups).
Sorry, my point was that they'll sometimes break the rules when it's expedient/profitable despite being (Lawful).

[Talya]

Note that it doesn't help them to kill you if you're not lawful evil or don't owe them your soul. Then you're gone and your souls are safe in whatever afterlife you have coming... no no no, that's not what they want. There's very little satisfaction in killing or torturing your mortal form. That's a very short diversion and not profitable in the slightest.

No, Devils are going to scheme. They're going to be on your side. They're going to work with you. They're going to try to corrupt you. They're going to offer you help, for an ever increasing price. If they can use you to accomplish some goal, they'll sacrifice you in a second. If they can get your souls, they'll murder you themselves. But senseless, pointless violence isn't a devil.

Torture is fun and everything, but it's better to do it to your soul, after you're dead. That's where the real money is.

[CRtwenty]

Sorry, my point was that they'll sometimes break the rules when it's expedient/profitable despite being (Lawful).

Not quite. They'll follow the rules. They are just fully aware of all the fine print that they "forgot" to tell you about before hand that voided whatever deal you had with them previously and allows them to screw you over.

[Cirrylius]

Not quite. They'll follow the rules. They are just fully aware of all the fine print that they "forgot" to tell you about before hand that voided whatever deal you had with them previously and allows them to screw you over.

No, there are plenty of instances where Devils have killed their superiors and made it look like an accident. It's nowhere near as common as with Yugoloths or Demons, but a Devil will break the rules on occasion, if it profits them enough. They can lie, steal, cheat, murder... but they'll always think twice about it, because not only does that mean that other fiends are considering the same thing, which endangers Baator's organization as a whole, but the whole weight of Hell will come down on them if they get caught. The fiends who make up the rest of the pyramid know that to let that stuff slide would open them up to attack from both their superiors and their inferiors.

Then again, most of the Devils' fluff came from 2e; Possibly it was putting more focus on their Evil than their Law, but the precedents are there. Maybe they shouldn't be.

[GoatBoy]

I think Your Mileage May Vary when it comes to this topic. You can either think of devils as "using the law to obtain their evil desires," or "evil to the extent that the law allows."

Pick whichever one suits your goals better, and roll with it. Don't run contradictory to what you want, just because some game designer "decided" it should be that way twenty or so years ago.

[CRtwenty]

No, there are plenty of instances where Devils have killed their superiors and made it look like an accident. It's nowhere near as common as with Yugoloths or Demons, but a Devil will break the rules on occasion, if it profits them enough. They can lie, steal, cheat, murder... but they'll always think twice about it, because not only does that mean that other fiends are considering the same thing, which endangers Baator's organization as a whole, but the whole weight of Hell will come down on them if they get caught. The fiends who make up the rest of the pyramid know that to let that stuff slide would open them up to attack from both their superiors and their inferiors.

Then again, most of the Devils' fluff came from 2e; Possibly it was putting more focus on their Evil than their Law, but the precedents are there. Maybe they shouldn't be.

Well yeah, Hell is all about using Law to further your own ends. If it wasn't it'd be called Mechanus and it's inhabitants could be accurately represented on the battlemap with Dice. "Look out for number 1" is pretty much their Rule 0. As for fragging your officer it's accepted because it weeds out incompetence in the leadership. A good officer would have seen the plot coming and foiled it.

Remember that the Devils follow Law, but also reward ambition. Asmodeus wound up demoting one of the Archdevils that supported him during the Reckoning in Hell simply because he wasn't ambitious enough to try and plot against him.

In any case I feel we're both arguing the same point here, just using different terminology.

[Tragak]

In any case I feel we're both arguing the same point here, just using different terminology. Yeah, me too.

My favorite distinction comes from Easy (http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html#otheralignments)Damus (http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html#otheralignments):
Conflicts between lawful evil and neutral evil characters will deal with the question of loyalty.
The neutral evil character's loyalty is to himself and those who aid him currently. He will not go out of his way to help another, unless he needs that individual's help in the future.

The lawful evil character recognizes the need for comrades and will help those that he considers allies, even at some personal risk and cost. Whoever a lawful evil character calls an ally can expect loyalty and aid, unless he fails to support the aims of the group or organization. Woe to the person who betrays the group! The lawful evil character will not be forgiving and will seek to cause injury or kill the offender, whatever is appropriate for their crime.

The neutral evil character will also make an example of those who cross him, there is no question. The difference between the neutral evil character and lawful evil character is that the neutral evil character will betray an ally for gain when the ally has done him no wrong, whereas the lawful evil character will only betray a former ally who has proven himself unworthy or if that ally betrays the group.

Most Evil organizations have a mix of Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic Evils. CEs would rarely, if ever, advance beyond foot-soldier mook, so most power plays on this scale would be from the Neutral and the Lawful Evils. Neutral Evils care primarily about themselves and view the LE establishment merely as a tool among many to be used against others, and would use it in any way that they can against their enemies, from within or without the establishment.

Lawful Evils on the other hand care as much about the LE establishment itself as they do about their place within it, so any power plays they make to depose enemies within the system would be based on a genuine belief that their enemy is weakening the system in general.

Hades and Gehanna have a lot of Yugoloths in charge in addition to the Devils, so internal power plays not based on a genuine fear of betrayal would still happen, just not in Baator.

Mechanus, on the other hand, would have no such power plays because Lawful Neutrals either genuinely don't want anything or believe that what they want is entirely unimportant to the survival of the system.

[Cirrylius]

Mechanus, on the other hand, would have no such power plays because Lawful Neutrals either genuinely don't want anything or believe that what they want is entirely unimportant to the survival of the system.
There are power struggles in Lawful Neutral organizations, they just tend to be over disagreements in methodology, or dissent on who deserves a position more, rather than ego/ambition.



Lawful Evils on the other hand care as much about the LE establishment itself as they do about their place within it, so any power plays they make to depose enemies within the system would be based on a genuine belief that their enemy is weakening the system in general.



This is not entirely correct. What you describe is a Lawful Evil race choosing to support a Lawful Evil organization in a Lawful Neutral fashion. Here's how I see it; exemplified Lawful Good organizations exist so that the law can serve and protect the people who follow it. Exemplified Lawful Neutral organizations exist so that the people who follow it can serve and protect the Law. Exemplified Lawful Evil organizations exist so that the law can serve me. A Lawful Evil regards the system itself, and their place in it, as important, yes, and attempts to strengthen it against outside attacks. What differs, though, is every Devil secretly knows that the laws don't apply to HIM; HE'S much more important than the others. HE'S just biding his time, yeeeah, he'll play the game, and when he's on top then THINGS ARE GONNA CHANGE.

Every description of Hell I've ever read emphasizes the fact that the whole power dynamic of the Devil hierarchy is shaped by the raving ambition of its members. I've read descriptions of individual Baatezu putting their interests ahead of their fellows' time and again; if what you're suggesting were true, the only conflict between Devils of the same rank would be when individuals disagreed on who was most fit to be promoted. As is, that happens every time; every single fiend who wants to be promoted believes that he's the one who deserves to be promoted, not just because he's got the right qualities, but because he's willing do do anything to get there, with a generous helping of "f**k you, it's mine". What makes it tricky is that while it's a sign of worth to be able to plot your way up the ladder by besting your superiors and allies, it's against the rules to weaken the organization against outsiders. Most of the out-and-out betrayals, the claws-in-the-dark murders, the flagrant lies, and so on, happen at or near the bottom of the system, though, as a willingness to break the rules rather than game the rules indicates (or is perceived by superiors as) an unacceptable level of individuality, or alternately an unacceptable regard for self over the system (i.e. his superiors). When the system begins to offer benefits instead of just demanding blind, total obedience, ah, then things get interesting. Now it's worth protecting.

[Zubrowka74]

To the OP : if you want to see an interpretation of Hell you might want to look at "Hordes of the Underdark", the second expansion for the original Neverwinter Nights game. You get only to the 8th layer (Cania) though. Besides, Planescape : Torment has a section set in Baator and involving the Blood War.

Also, this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baator) gives a short description of each layer.

[Telonius]

If the PCs are actually still alive at that point, they might well be given the VIP treatment by an enterprising devil looking to have some big-time souls on his account.

"Oh, sure, the less-powerful masses have it kind of tough here, but let me show you the splendor of Mammon's halls! If you're strong enough - and let me tell you, you gentlemen look plenty strong - this could be your eternity. Isn't that much better than worshiping some goody-two-shoes for the next billion years?"

[Tragak]

... Then what's Neutral Evil in contrast?

[GoatBoy]

Then what's Neutral Evil in contrast?

Complete and utter self-serving. Like the Yugoloths. When a caster summons a Yugoloth in combat, there is a 25% chance that the Yugoloth will instead attack the summoner, and then approach whomever was threatening the caster, in expectation of some sort of reward.

[angry_bear]

Devils could easily see a group of adventurers in their territory as against the law, and kill them on sight, or they could imprison them, and spend the next couple of years breaking them until they're perfectly happy to go back to their native plane and serve as an agent to the Nine Hells.

What I would have the party do beforehand is find an effective means of disguising themselves. Maybe even contact a powerful enough Outsider to mask them as they go on their mission. What level is the party right now?

[Cirrylius]

Then what's Neutral Evil in contrast?
Strangely, Yugoloths are much more concerned with spreading the edifice of Evil In General throughout the multiverse, while Hell serves only Hell, implying that Neutral Evil is less selfish than Lawful Evil:smallbiggrin:

IMO, Devils act less lawfully than might be expected because there's a conflict between Law (doing what's best for society) and Evil (doing what's best for you). You can execute the law in an evil fashion, and you can perform evil via legalities, but if you try to serve both the law and yourself equally, something's got to give somewhere.

If it weren't for the fluff, then yes, I'd agree that my above examination of the Infernal power structure is in error; As both Lawful and Evil creatures, Devils should be equally concerned with each.

:smallannoyed:...aaaand I've just realized I've spent like two hours arguing Alignment on a thread about how adventurers would fare in Hell. Sorry 'bout that:smallredface:

[Tragak]

:smallannoyed:...aaaand I've just realized I've spent like two hours arguing Alignment on a thread about how adventurers would fare in Hell. Sorry 'bout that:smallredface: No, it's OK.

Rule 0: The rulebooks are highly tentative suggestions*, the DM/players are ultimately in control of changing whatever it takes to make the game more awesome for them, and we've spent the day providing in-depth analyses of different perspectives - which is crucial to consistent NPCs/setting within each perspective - that would work better for different games. Thank you.

*Especially since the crux of our - and many other peoples' - disagreement was on the definitions of Law vs. Chaos, which the rule books made deliberately vague and meaningless trying to use as many of the contradictory real life philosophies as possible - utilitarianism, deontology... - lest anybody get mad (not grasping the idea of D&D being Fiction), and ended up not actually saying anything. Which could actually be considered a bonus for the same reason I gave in the previous paragraph.

[CRtwenty]

IMO, Devils act less lawfully than might be expected because there's a conflict between Law (doing what's best for society) and Evil (doing what's best for you). You can execute the law in an evil fashion, and you can perform evil via legalities, but if you try to serve both the law and yourself equally, something's got to give somewhere.

True. Which is why Asmodeus hasn't managed to conquer the multiverse yet. Despite all of their power and organization the Baatezu's worse enemy will always be themselves. Which is the main weakness of Evil in general in the D&D setting.

Which sets up some interesting dynamics. Say for instance they decide to try and get access to the Jangling Hiter. Obviously they can't just stroll in without proper documentation and permission (which is next to impossible to get) but hey look, they encounter a Cornugon who is more then happy to help them sneak in. After all letting intruders sneak into the city would be a huge loss of face to the current Devil in charge of the Guards. And the friendly Cornugon just happens to be next in line for his position.

Of course as soon as they get inside the Cornugon attacks them with some weaker Devil's that follow him so he can both embarrass the Guard Captain and gain accolades for killing the intruders himself. That's how Devils work after all.

[Captainspork]

Strangely, Yugoloths are much more concerned with spreading the edifice of Evil In General throughout the multiverse, while Hell serves only Hell, implying that Neutral Evil is less selfish than Lawful Evil:smallbiggrin:

IMO, Devils act less lawfully than might be expected because there's a conflict between Law (doing what's best for society) and Evil (doing what's best for you). You can execute the law in an evil fashion, and you can perform evil via legalities, but if you try to serve both the law and yourself equally, something's got to give somewhere.

If it weren't for the fluff, then yes, I'd agree that my above examination of the Infernal power structure is in error; As both Lawful and Evil creatures, Devils should be equally concerned with each.

:smallannoyed:...aaaand I've just realized I've spent like two hours arguing Alignment on a thread about how adventurers would fare in Hell. Sorry 'bout that:smallredface:

Hey man its all good haha :smallbiggrin:. Since we are on the topic, for me it comes down to preparation. NE would wait until an opportune moment: perhaps when they sleep,or when no one else is around, to kill their weaker "ally" once their death becomes beneficial. LE would rely more on creating the opportune moment: set up his "ally" to break the law in some fashion which would call for an immediate death sentence.

A few people mentioned the logistics of getting in "safely". Without going into all of the details, I planned on the party getting in with the help of an NPC who was once an indirect ally (use the term loosely) of Mammon, lord of the 3rd layer. Since he appears to have few who trust him within the 9 hells from what I've read, it seems logical Mammon would look outside for potential allies. And since the devils still believe this NPC to be allied with Mammon, I think he'll have sufficient street cred to get into Jangling Hiter. :smallcool:

At least that's the plan. Feel free to weigh in if you would like :smalleek:

[CRtwenty]

Mammon is the Lord of Greed, and is likely to take anything being taken from his City very very personally. Especially if it's a former minion of his that's involved. While most of his wrath will be directed at the NPC helper the PCs are almost certainly to be put on his hitlist, and get harried by his minions for doing this.

More importantly there needs to be a good reason why the NPC would be willing to anger an Arch Devil. You could have him be working for one of the other Arch Devils (Dispater and Mephistopheles are pretty mad with him in 3rd ed canon). After helping them rescue the NPC in question he could betray them by turning them into his Master or something.

One of the main things you want to do in Hell is to get the PCs paranoid. Due to the way the Plane is set up they need to enlist others in helping them, but everybody will always try to stab them in the back. They'll need to "think like a Devil" as it were and try to figure out exactly what their new allies are really after, and find a way to thwart it without them figuring out the ruse.