[3.5] Any way to recoup 2 casting levels on a Sorcerer/Paladin?

[Crasical]

Right, so. Sorcerer 1/Paladin 4, going into Geomancer. Seemed like a pretty good deal, since going all the way to 4 on a paladin sets me up pretty sturdily with weapon and armor proficiency, some nice Cha-based goodies, Battle Blessing with the possibility of Divine Metamagic on my sorcerer goodies, Sure. But the way I've got it set up, at 6th level I'm using Geomantic energy to boost the INCREDIBLY POWER of my FIVE FIRST LEVEL SPELLs.

Plus, if I can advance my Sorcerer casting just a bit, Level 10 and 11 suddenly have the planets coming into alignment, with the character picking up Rake and Constrict via Drifts, Polymorph coming online for size increases and improved Strength, and Fearsome Grapple getting it's bump from +4 to +8, set up on the relatively solid Geomancer Chassis of medium bab and D6 HD.

So, anyway to improve my slightly deficient casting with this entry, or am I hosed?

[Azernak0]

Divine Metamagic only works with Divine spells, so no DM on Arcane Spells. Paladin also only get 2nd level spells at level 8, so you wouldn't qualify for Geomancer. Jeez, you wouldn't even qualify until you could cast Second level Arcane Spell (or do you have Precocious Apprentice?)

[Crasical]

The cheesy flavor is all at first level: Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician qualifies me for Geomancer, and the Geomancer levels all advance Sorcerer.

Spell versatility allows me to mix-and-match 'Spell parameters' from any of my classes to whatever suits me best at the time of casting, so yes, Divine Metamagic and Battle Blessing on my sorcerer casting.

[Azernak0]

The only way I know for sure of increasing Sorcerer levels is the dirty, dirty Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You would need to be a Dragonwrought Kobold and it would severely limit feat choices but it is gives +3 Sorcerer caster levels.

[Jeff the Green]

The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) will get you an additional level, but you have to be a kobold.

[Crasical]

The only way I know for sure of increasing Sorcerer levels is the dirty, dirty Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You would need to be a Dragonwrought Kobold and it would severely limit feat choices but it is gives +3 Sorcerer caster levels.


The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) will get you an additional level, but you have to be a kobold.

Unfortunately Southern Magician requires a human to use it, so Dragon magic is out.

EDIT: Also that link with the Greater Draconic Rite has me raising an eyebrow at the section with the natural attacks, especially the bit about attacking with a greatsword or greataxe being superior. A kobold Rogue with multiattack and a small dagger would be doing ~20 damage with the sneak attacks factored in, good enough to burrow a neat hole directly through a bugbear's chest.

[Vaz]

Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Paladin? Requires mounted combat though, so needs flaws, or Sor 2/CC/Prestige Pally entry. Alternatively, Archivist entry, but that loses you DMM; however Incantatrix can fill your DMM whole and apply to Sorc spells, regardless of Geomamcer.

[A_S]

EDIT: Also that link with the Greater Draconic Rite has me raising an eyebrow at the section with the natural attacks, especially the bit about attacking with a greatsword or greataxe being superior. A kobold Rogue with multiattack and a small dagger would be doing ~20 damage with the sneak attacks factored in, good enough to burrow a neat hole directly through a bugbear's chest.

Are you suggesting that WotC game designers sometimes have faulty intuitions about the 3.5 metagame and game balance? Surely not!

[Piggy Knowles]

Not sure if you care, as the FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) is notoriously inconsistent, but it specifically ruled against Southern Magician working, and gave a "strong opinion" that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work either:



Can a wizard with the Southern Magician feat qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell?

The Southern Magician feat does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast. Thus, you won’t qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell. The Southern Magician feat only gives the bonuses specifically listed in the feat’s description.



In the Sage's opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

(p43-44, if you're interested.)

The Alternate Source Spell feat should explicitly work, although it's a Dragon Magazine feat.

Anyhow, to your original question, it looks like your best bet would probably be to rebuild your casting later via Sublime Chord or similar. It won't help you for the low to mid levels, but it will turn around in the end. Harmonious Knight ACF on paladin levels can get you the necessary bardic music to qualify.

[A_S]

Harmonious Knight ACF on paladin levels can get you the necessary bardic music to qualify.

By my reading, Harmonious Knight definitely doesn't qualify you for Sublime Chord. SC requires "Bardic music ability." Harmonious Knight grants three class features, called "Inspire courage," "Inspire competence," and "Inspire greatness." It doesn't get an ability called "Bardic music." The features it gets that imitate bardic music don't even call out or stack with the actual bardic music versions. They also don't work the same way as the bardic music versions (they don't require ranks in perform). They're totally different class features.

[Piggy Knowles]

By my reading, Harmonious Knight definitely doesn't qualify you for Sublime Chord. SC requires "Bardic music ability." Harmonious Knight grants three class features, called "Inspire courage," "Inspire competence," and "Inspire greatness." It doesn't get an ability called "Bardic music." The features it gets that imitate bardic music don't even call out or stack with the actual bardic music versions. They also don't work the same way as the bardic music versions (they don't require ranks in perform). They're totally different class features.

Fair enough, then it'd need a dip into bard or warrior skald or similar. I was just hoping to save some levels.

Anyhow, if cheesiness is not a factor (and if we're taking Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician for one-level entry into Geomancer, I'm assuming it's not), then Versatile Caster + Heighten Spell or Mother Cyst or the like can sub in for Precocious Apprentice, and also serve to help qualify early for Sublime Chord on the casting side of things.

[RogueDM]

All other disparities aside, to address the initial question of raising the "Casting Level" by at least two. I may have misinterpreted the question, but would either (or both) of the Practiced feats from Complete Arcane and Complete Divine help here? They respectively raise your Arcane and Divine caster levels by four (or to HD).

[GreenETC]

Also, remember that Battle Blessing only lets you cast Paladin spells as Swift Actions, not all Divine spells. Not that you're in danger of having issues with being overpowered, but that fact still exists.

[Crasical]

Also, remember that Battle Blessing only lets you cast Paladin spells as Swift Actions, not all Divine spells. Not that you're in danger of having issues with being overpowered, but that fact still exists.

I'm pretty sure I can use Spell Versatility to tag my spells as 'Paladin' to benefit from the feat. 'Spell Parameters' is pretty vague, but 'as if I had cast from THIS class, with THIS class' caster level, using THIS class' stat to set the save DC' is my first reading of how the ability works.


All other disparities aside, to address the initial question of raising the "Casting Level" by at least two. I may have misinterpreted the question, but would either (or both) of the Practiced feats from Complete Arcane and Complete Divine help here? They respectively raise your Arcane and Divine caster levels by four (or to HD).

I wasn't sure if I should clarify that or not. I was looking for actual spells known/slots, not just caster level boosts. Something like what Loredrake or the Draconic Right.


Not sure if you care, as the FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) is notoriously inconsistent, but it specifically ruled against Southern Magician working, and gave a "strong opinion" that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work either.

I'd be more inclined to listen if his explanation made much sense to me. The distinction between 'able to cast divine spells' and 'casting an arcane spell that becomes divine at the instant of casting' is a ridiculously tiny one.

Also the note about Precocious Apprentice not working because it has a 'chance' of casting a spell instead means that no Sha'ir can ever take a PRC with a casting requirement, since they require diplomacy checks to retrieve their spells, thus only a 'chance' to cast them. :smalltongue:


Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Paladin? Requires mounted combat though, so needs flaws, or Sor 2/CC/Prestige Pally entry. Alternatively, Archivist entry, but that loses you DMM; however Incantatrix can fill your DMM whole and apply to Sorc spells, regardless of Geomamcer.

Prestige paladin advances an existing arcane classes casting, so I'm a little iffy on if it still fulfills the 'Ability to cast paladin spells' requirement of Battle Blessing.



Anyhow, if cheesiness is not a factor (and if we're taking Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician for one-level entry into Geomancer, I'm assuming it's not), then Versatile Caster + Heighten Spell or Mother Cyst or the like can sub in for Precocious Apprentice, and also serve to help qualify early for Sublime Chord on the casting side of things.

Can a Paladin have a Cyst? It's not specifically called out as 'evil', but it is from a necromancy book, and a lot of the spells it grants do have the [evil] tag.


By my reading, Harmonious Knight definitely doesn't qualify you for Sublime Chord. SC requires "Bardic music ability." Harmonious Knight grants three class features, called "Inspire courage," "Inspire competence," and "Inspire greatness." It doesn't get an ability called "Bardic music." The features it gets that imitate bardic music don't even call out or stack with the actual bardic music versions. They also don't work the same way as the bardic music versions (they don't require ranks in perform). They're totally different class features.


Wait, they don't require any Perform? So you can just stand there and look sullen and suddenly everyone is TOTALLY INSPIRED to do things?

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd be more inclined to listen if his explanation made much sense to me. The distinction between 'able to cast divine spells' and 'casting an arcane spell that becomes divine at the instant of casting' is a ridiculously tiny one.

Also the note about Precocious Apprentice not working because it has a 'chance' of casting a spell instead means that no Sha'ir can ever take a PRC with a casting requirement, since they require diplomacy checks to retrieve their spells, thus only a 'chance' to cast them. :smalltongue:

Yeah, like I said, it's the FAQ, which means it's how Skip felt like answering any given question at the time he was asked, and there are a few places where he directly contradicts the rules as written. I've played in more than one group that uses it when they're not sure if something works, though, so it's something to keep in mind.


Can a Paladin have a Cyst? It's not specifically called out as 'evil', but it is from a necromancy book, and a lot of the spells it grants do have the [evil] tag.

Far as I can tell, yes - casting some of the spells might be an evil act (although if you're a Hellbred, even that will fly), but simply having the cyst and therefore the capability to cast them isn't evil. The feat itself doesn't require an evil alignment or change your current alignment in any way. It's only when you start using your cyst to enslave others that it becomes evil. Anyhow, there are other similar feats that will also do the trick. A strict reading of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine Compendium, for example, could work - though the feats require you to cast arcane spells without preparation, they don't specify what spell list the spells they grant are added to.


Wait, they don't require any Perform? So you can just stand there and look sullen and suddenly everyone is TOTALLY INSPIRED to do things?

I just re-read the web enhancement. A_S is right they don't require ranks in perform, but they DO require you to sing. So you sing, but sing badly, I guess...

From Smite to Song lets you "duplicate the effects of the... bardic music ability", and even gives you an effective bard level, so that theoretically might also fly - although wouldn't by strict RAW because you duplicate its effects rather than actually gaining the ability. Depends on your DM.

[nyjastul69]

...
I just re-read the web enhancement. A_S is right they don't require ranks in perform, but they DO require you to sing. So you sing, but sing badly, I guess...



Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness require ranks in perform, 4 and 5 ranks respectively. Inspire Courage doesn't.

[A_S]

Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness require ranks in perform, 4 and 5 ranks respectively. Inspire Courage doesn't.

(I only actually read the first one. Don't tell anybody.)

[TypoNinja]

Yeah, like I said, it's the FAQ, which means it's how Skip felt like answering any given question at the time he was asked, and there are a few places where he directly contradicts the rules as written. I've played in more than one group that uses it when they're not sure if something works, though, so it's something to keep in mind.


FAQ is full of crap often enough that its not worth even reading in my opinion. Its use is supposed to be that its an authority on the game, but it gets things badly, hilariously, wrong often enough that its authority is thoroughly undermined.

With little to no actual credibility, anywhere it agrees with me is just more confirmation bias, and anywhere it disagrees with me can be suspect based on its known flakiness. Net usefulness of nodda.

[Endarire]

The best I know of is Beholder Mage to get fast arcane casting, but that requires its own shenanigans.

[Crasical]

Yeah, it looks like most of the shenanigans here would rightly invoke flying books if I stacked it on the cheese I already have, or require a full rebuild with Sublime Chord.

Maybe I can cut the levels of Paladin I have and use the incredibly weak argument that "can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes" allows me to designate my spells as 'Paladin' casting despite not having enough actual levels in the class to cast spells, like triggering a wand.

[thethird]

If LA-buyoff is on the table you could be a white dragonspawn for an extra sorcerer level at the price of LA 1 or 3000 XP, you also get some other neat things.

[Crasical]

If LA-buyoff is on the table you could be a white dragonspawn for an extra sorcerer level at the price of LA 1 or 3000 XP, you also get some other neat things.

Is Dragonspawn a race or a template? Because I have to be human to qualify for Southern Magician.

[TuggyNE]

Is Dragonspawn a race or a template? Because I have to be human to qualify for Southern Magician.

White Dragonspawn is Kobold-only, if memory serves. So that would be a no.

[thethird]

It is a template, and it is accessible to humans (it is in dragonlance campaign setting).

[Alleran]

I hesitate to mention it, since it's technically Pathfinder and not 3.5, but in Paizo's Inner Sea Magic supplement, they include various arcane colleges and suchlike. In one of them, the White Grotto, there is the option to spend Faction Points/Prestige Points on gaining a +1 boost to spellcasting level. Not just caster level, so you could look into that.

However, it is, as I said, Pathfinder, so it or mechanics like it may not be much (if any) use, since this is 3.5e - I felt it was worth mentioning, though, since you might be able to use it with backwards compatibility. I don't think the Faction mechanic Pathfinder has is all that unfriendly to 3.5e games, anyway.