OOTS #383 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[The Orange Zergling]

Few comics can make me really laugh out loud... this was one of them. I loved the swirly eyes.

[Max_Sinister]

"What they vehemently object." Uh, that's really twisted.

The OOTS is in grave danger...


Haley's also in the OOTS! Nale didn't specify "except Haley"!
And will we get something special for #400?
And we know Belkar will kill some OOTS member...

[rwald]

This only raises the question of why Belkar hasn't done this sort of thing before..I guess Charm can overcome one's better judgement (to the extent that Belkar has any).

[Flak_Razorwill]

Simply amazing. I'm sure Belkar doesn't have the defenses against something like that magic attack.

I'm glad there's no rape. Just good ol' fashioned murder!

St. Louis in D&D? Odd. I expected it in Stargate or CSI, but not here.

EDIT: Love the black turtleneck sweater/slacks combo. Very upscale urban.

[Destro_Yersul]

That was brilliant.
"Kill them and keep their magic items for yourself"
Priceless.:smallbiggrin:

[Grasilich]

Go Nale! I'm thinking that Belkar will end up going after V.

At least this should also put an end to the stupid 'rape' debate! Good stuff.

[Pegasos989]

Hehee. Brilliant! With negative wisdom and poor will save, I don't dare to think Belkar's will save modifier...

[Mr._Wilson]

Wow. I wouldn't have guessed Belkar figured it out first with the low wisdom and all. Nice twist.

[ref]

You could have used a Yogism in that final note, hehe.

Back on topic: Nale is uncovered because of smell, now he could be in trouble... And Charm Person + Mark of Justice... That wouldn't mix well...

Also, Halflings have very accurate smells, what with their great cooking, and stuff.

[Dispozition]

Heh...Great comic Giant. I love the Charm effect on Belkar's eyes.

Deffinately one of my favourites,

[Wulfric]

The eyes! The horror!

Seriously though, if Belkar can figure it out I'm sure the rest of the OOTS can. With luck, Durkon can clear things up for Belkar with a well-placed spell... whether Belkar wants to be cured of 'kill your allies' is another matter!

[Atheist_Cleric]

Ahhhh Belkar...you should have stabbed first and threatened his corpse later.....now everything is on the fritz. Still...Nale is completely without backup until tomorrow, Haley still might see through him, and provided Belkar doesnt kill the rest of the team, they are gonna find out...if the charm is broken, Belkar will telll, and if they cant break it, well SOMEBODY had to charm him. And suddenly "Elan" and Haley are missing.....

BTW I love the little touches here, like how Belkars swirly eyes are yellow, to correspond with Nale's magical aura color.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Hehehe, now they're just gonna think Belker's snapped when he tries killing everyone.

[EdgarVerona]

I'm glad it went this route. Surely Haley will fend him off after he attempts to kill her, and things will be better. Or, in the worst case, they can resurrect Haley. Got to love D&D, there's always a way to bring someone back. =)

[Heads_or_Tails]

Oooh... and now what remains to be seen is, will the party see that Belkar's eyes have gone all swirly?

[WarriorTribble]

Amazing, Belkar likes Elan, but I never thought his feeling could be strong enough to override his amoral lust for watching people suffer. I doubt he would've reacted so strongly if the others were impersonated (the whole I'll kill em, if I get to keep their stuff thing and others).

[BlueWizard]

Nale best OOTS Villain! Keep it up!

[Shatteredtower]

Well, doesn't that make for a lovely set of wrenches?

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.Fantastic.

Clearly, Belkar has invested ranks in a non-standard Sniff skill. How'd he miss the AoO? I'd be surprised if Nale had many ranks in Concentrate.

[Zeb The Troll]

And Charm Person + Mark of Justice... That wouldn't mix well...

I'm curious how this interaction will play out. Will Belkar try to kill a member of OotS only to be hindered by the MoJ? Or will he realize that he can't cause lethal damage before he tries and maybe break the charm?

Or maybe he'll first try to attack someone who'll realize he's charmed (maybe Belkar will say "Nale told me to kill you and keep your stuff") and then undo the charm. Or maybe he just won't see anyone before the charm wears off then he's free to find someone and let them in on the discovery.

[Martok]

Amazing, Belkar likes Elan, but I never thought his feeling could be strong enough to override his amoral lust for watching people suffer. I doubt he would've reacted so strongly if the others were impersonated (the whole I'll kill em, if I get to keep their stuff thing and others).
Indeed; I think Elan is the only member of the group that Belkar genuinely likes (although he lusts after Haley, so maybe not :smallwink: ). Still, I didn't anticipate him being the first one to penetrate Nale's disguise.

Great strip, Giant! The last panel was absolutely hilarious!

[EdgarVerona]

Aye, I certainly didn't see it coming. And as you said, especially not Belkar... that's pretty cool. =) I kind of got a little notch of respect for Belkar after he took initiative like that.

Just a little one though. ;)

EDIT: You know, I kind of want Belkar to be the one that finishes Nale off now (if anyone gets to).

[lord_khaine]

hehe omg i was a bit surprised when belkar said no first time :)

[dragon95046]

Loved the line "I don't want to go all 'Bond Villain" and forget to finish the job" and Belkar bragging about a game of Parcheesi is just awesome.

Also

Poor Nale, unaware that the Mark of Justice is going to keep Belkar from carrying out his plan. It's always those little things you don't know that spoil the best laid plans. Has Nale set himself up to be discovered by virtually everyone at once?

[ravage]

go nale & Belkar,kill them all!Ahahahaha!!!

[Felinoid]

Hmm. Too shocked to get any laughs out of this one; first that Nale was actually planning to kill Haley so quickly, and then that Belkar noticed a difference in scent despite them being identical twins. There were things my brain recognized as jokes, but sadly they just didn't seem funny at the time. :smallconfused: Probably get some laughs the next time I read it, though.

RE: Swirly eyes
Kudos for those who pointed out the coloration. The little touches are indeed very nice. And the party should be able to see them, just as they saw them on the dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html). Though that could just be a meta-knowledge joke, I would tend to expect the Giant to keep it consistent.

[Sir_Rosh]

Oooh... and now what remains to be seen is, will the party see that Belkar's eyes have gone all swirly?

I reckon V could "Spellcraft" it. A quick Dispel Magic will stop Belkar being charmed.

[Fale]

The next few strips will be interesting. Belkar's eyes are creepy like that.

[Baru]

Interesting development and progression of the plot.
No attack of opportunity?

[Feagurth]

Great comic Giant, as always... but could someone please kill Nale?

Here's to some more nailbiting :)

[Wulfric]

Just a thought - if Belkar has a remove curse / dispel magic cast on him, will that clear off the MoJ as well?

[Adder]

I'm glad that Nale is planning to kill Haley. Now instead of being utterly crushed by his betrayal, she can instead kick the snot out of him and surely will feel better afterwards.

[Demented]

Nale shows some forethought, trying to get rid of that "evil monologue" instinct! Where was that preparation when he was playing with sending spells? Tsk.

[rawmutton]

Bah, casting on the defensive isn't that tough. For Nale, it's a DC 16.

And Belkar's speech before attacking didn't cost him any time... speaking's a free action, right?

[battleburn]

Interesting developments.
Belkar attacks Nale just for plot purposes. He has been very carefull not to attack anyone within city boundaries, just to avoid the MoJ. But allright, plot purposes and something like affection for Elan can overrule that I suppose.
But now he is charmed things are about to become even more interesting.

The charm probably makes sure Belkar doesn't think of the MoJ, so he will try to kill someone. This will fail of course after the first bit of damage has been done. Interrogation will follow and then OotS will be just in time for the rescue of Haley.

[bosssmiley]

...

...

"Pwah-hah-hah-hah!!!"

^-- me, just now.

Better than puppeteer Shojo! Great episode. Oh, and Nale is *so* evil. :smallcool:

[CelestialStick]

Yes, I too was surprised by having Belkar be the first to identify Nale. Too bad the one time he could be really useful his low Wisdom prevented it. :smallfrown:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Just a thought - if Belkar has a remove curse / dispel magic cast on him, will that clear off the MoJ as well?

I think it depends on the level of the person who created the MoJ. A dispel could take out the charm but leave the MoJ if the level differences were great enough.

(It's been a long time since I played D&D, and I know the rules have changed a bit)

[CockroachTeaParty]

Ah, the plot thickens. Well done, Master Burlew. But what of Haley? WHAT I ASK?

[Celisasu]

Poor Belkar and his abysmal will save. Too bad Nale didn't use something that forced a fortitude save. Belkar probably has the best in the group there due to a combination of halfling save bonuses and that barbarian level merging with his ranger levels to give him a higher than normal fortitude save. Did he blow his rage for the day going after Nale? That definately looked like a rage moment at the start there.

[tis_tom]

Argh!!! Damn Belkar and his abismal Will Save!!! I reckon Belkar would have killed Nale regardless of the Mark of Justice though, I mean Elan's the only one of them he actually likes!

[onikun86]

Yes, I too was surprised by having Belkar be the first to identify Nale. Too bad the one time he could be really useful his low Wisdom prevented it. :smallfrown:

I actually thought Belkar would be the first... then Haley second, and Roy last.
I was wondering why Belkar didn't notice Nale at first... but now we see our author not being forgetful, but paying attention to detail.
Just what's gonna happen next?
Will Nale accidently blurt part of his plan?
Haley is slightly cautious of this... guessing he may be a doppelganger... will she figure it out?

And what about the M.O.J.? Does it stop Belkar from attacking people in general... or does it just stop him from consciencely attacking people??? Will it still apply if he's being charmed???
And who will be his first target? Roy? V? Durkon?
Remember Belk's prophecy... there is a chance in fate that he can/will kill Roy and/or V...
and... finally....

WILL WE EVER FIND OUT IF V IS MALE OR FEMALE!!!????

edit:

Argh!!! Damn Belkar and his abismal Will Save!!! I reckon Belkar would have killed Nale regardless of the Mark of Justice though, I mean Elan's the only one of them he actually likes!
Actually, remember V's lust/hate list, he probably secretly lusts for Haley.

[Wordmaker]

Nice bit of villainous exposition. I'm very much relieved!

There was a lot of "coincidental" information coming out there, but that's okay because it's getting the plot moving on.

So, does this mean Belkar finally put ranks in Spot? :smallwink:

[monkofawesome]

Aw, he has only a little bit of goatee to shave off. The only member of the family able to grow a triangular patch of hair.


Also...I am not too sure Charm Person works that way if the person ALREADY wants to kill. But maybe Belkar rolls a lot of Critical Misses.

[Azukar]

Just a thought - if Belkar has a remove curse / dispel magic cast on him, will that clear off the MoJ as well?

he did try that when it was first revealed, back in Azure City first time around. Can't remember the comic number for a link though. He said he went to every mage in town but nobody could remove it.

So chances are V wouldn't remove the MoJ when s/he removed the charm. If that's how the story is going to progress. But am I the only one who'd rather wait and see than discuss it all ad nauseum?

[Atheist_Cleric]

Unless Belkar is able to finish off one of the OOTS in one hit, I doubt him killing any of them could happen. Remember, as soon as he attacks one of them, the MoJ will kick in and incapacitate him. I suppose he could push V off a building or into a fire or something, but I dunno. Frankly, I think Roy is going to go nuts when he finds out. Not only was he duped by a guy he really doesnt like, but he also got tricked into leaving Elan behind for execution. And the last time Roy got really mad, his starmetal sword flared up with the deadly green energy.....

Lets just say im really hopeing Nale gets a good load of damage. I dont mind if he gets away, he's too good a villain to kill off, but sending him off at like 5 hp would be nice.

[Feng]

Well if this continue down the line of comedy as I hope is doseI think V might finaly get a reason to fire ball Belkars ass into the next time rift. Great strip.

[Eldhrin]

What a fiend that Nale is!

Will be interesting to see how the Mark of Justice and the Charm Person interact.

I predict that Belkar will attempt to kill another OOTSer, the Mark will kick in and the story will come out, then we'll see an exciting race to save Haley. Whether she'll actually die or not I have no idea, but if she does, who's going to pay to resurrect her?

[Zeb The Troll]

Poor Belkar and his abysmal will save.
...
Did he blow his rage for the day going after Nale? That definately looked like a rage moment at the start there.
Regarding Belkar's Will save, barring something really unexpected, he had +9 to save against that particular spell (+3 for ranger levels, +1 for being a halfling, and +5 for being in combat when the charm was attempted). Nale's DC for the spell is 11+ whatever his CHA modifier is, but probably no higher than DC15. That means a 6 would have succeeded. Belkar just plain rolled badly on it.

If he did blow his rage on this (and I think it's reasonable to consider that he might have since he attacked despite being acutely aware of the MoJ), that just means his will save roll was even worse since rage grants another +2.

[Nerd_Paladin]

Indeed; I think Elan is the only member of the group that Belkar genuinely likes.

Elan and Belkar's "friendship" has always been amusing to me. Elan is so affable that he can get along with almost ANYone, and I imagine that Belkar finds Elan amusing on many levels (plus, Elan's high Charisma just makes him naturally likable).

I still don't get why Belkar apparently has the Scent ability.

The punchline was predictable, but still a decent joke. How long can Nale keep Belkar charmed though? Odd also that he'd pass up the chance to off Belkar. Then again, I've had my bad guys commit a few lapses in judgement for the sake of the enjoyment of the group when I've DM'ed, so what the hell. :smallcool:

[Zeb The Troll]

I still don't get why Belkar apparently has the Scent ability.
So far as I can tell, it's just a joke. Either that or Belkar is something more than a halfling.


How long can Nale keep Belkar charmed though?
The charm lasts for 1 hour per caster level. I'm guessing that's around 4 hours for Nale but that's a total guess.


Odd also that he'd pass up the chance to off Belkar.
He says in the strip that he can't afford to have anyone find the body. I'm guessing that just means that since he's lawful he doesn't want to be late for his date to kill Haley and doesn't have time to deal with Belkar AND hide the evidence.

[Quixoto]

See people, she's not gonna get raped... only murdered! Jeez, and you guys were all worried and stuff.

[divine]

ok. I love rich and I know he's doing this on purpose.. but OMG can you drag out the different dimensions of suspense any more? how many characters need to be involved before we finally have some resolution?!
I love some depth of narrative but this is getting to be too much..
what's next? V discovers some random previous fishy aspect of "Elan's" behavior and Roy agrees that it's not him so they're all ready to kick his ass? (10 strips later) come on!
I know it's part of building the story and suspense but we can do without the random character interventions that just lead to more subplots~

/rant off

love ya rich, but hurry up you're makin me giddy :smalltongue:

[Demented]

It seems Belkar will be waiting in the men's bathroom... which means Durkon, Roy, and... and... Well, if he meets V, we'll have answered one of the great questions of our time.

Or Belkar's a roamer.

[GenericFighter]

So, Belkar likes showtunes. Interesting. Can't wait for the psycho-killer attack on the first OotSer he sees while shouting lyrics at the top of his lungs.

:belkar: "Won't you come home, Bill Bailey... so I can cut out your pancreas!"

:roy: "He's finally snapped!"

:durkon: "Aye, but he's pitch perfect!"

[Adlan]

If Haley Does gte Knifed, maybe she will be the one to get a change of appearance.

Maybe, as some have suggested, she is not exactly human, and the killing (near fatal wounding?) will bring out the other side of her.

[McDeath]

More evidence that the evil characters are better.

[DrewDaGreek]

Wow..

I had a sneaking suspicion of something.. and thinking about Rich's thoroughness.. something I thought he house-ruled may not be a house rule at all...

Alot of little clues he's been dropping... Belkar is smarter than he looks, he's just got a low wisdom...

I think Belkar has a secret, but that's a topic for a spoiler thread...

[Zongo]

My bet is Haley's the first one Belkar will try & kill

Either she'll come to Nale/ Elan's place, or Belkar will tag along Nale to his date, sneak, hide, and stab her when she least expects it

[Khantalas]

Belkar, you disappoint me. You should have helped Nale with his plan without being charmed... then kill him and his little dog, too.

Blood! Blood everywhere! Death! Carnage! CHOCOLATE!

[A Gray Phantom]

I'm totally shocked that out of all the OotSers that BELKAR caught on to Nale's disguise :smalleek:. I didn't undersand at first why Belkar was attacking "Elan," and even when I was reading his word bubble I couldn't understand. I'm really and genuinely surprised.

[Zeb The Troll]

It seems Belkar will be waiting in the men's bathroom... which means Durkon, Roy, and... and... Well, if he meets V, we'll have answered one of the great questions of our time.

Or Belkar's a roamer.
I got the distinct impression that this was "Elan's" room. Why would Belkar go looking in the Men's Room to tell Elan about a game of Parcheesi? Also, there's no sign on the door. :smallcool:

[Idless]

I just runied one of the better ones!

I am so ill that my brain is veiled and I don't have the capacity to comprehend it.

I identified all the jokes on 2nd read through but I didn't have the energy to be amused :(

Was very surprised with Belkars "No" loved that - Mr. Burlew you got talent! But I don't think anyine doubted that.

great comic tho

back to bed

...Idless

[Blink Dawg]

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf for teh Win!

[warmachine]

There is a logical flaw that Belkar would regard killing his allies as against his own best interest. Though Belkar would enjoy killing his allies and taking their stuff, the Mark of Justice would cause to fall ill then die and he knows it. Belkar would avoid a slow, painful suicide if possible.

Belkar is impulsive enough to stab a recognised enemy then regret it later but when commanded by someone else, he'd consider what's in it for him.

He could easily be persuaded to punch out his allies then keep their stuff, though.

[5tephen]

BAM!

I, for one, will gleefully admit that I did NOT see that coming.

Guess I just lost a packet in the Betting Agency game....

[Noneoyabizzness]

probably the greed will make violating the moj worh it and in his nature

[fwiffo]

Just how stinky can Elan be? I mean, it's been 4 days since Nale put on Elan's clothes, and he smelled like Elan all the way up till just now? That means 3 days of what must've been a pretty grueling (and likely sweaty) travel didn't make Nale's smell overcome Elan's smell. So, just how badly does Elan stink that over 4 days someone wearing his clothes still smells like him and not like the wearer?

Or is this AD&D rule and I should not attempt to use real world rules?

[Lord Zentei]

Amazing, Belkar likes Elan, but I never thought his feeling could be strong enough to override his amoral lust for watching people suffer. I doubt he would've reacted so strongly if the others were impersonated (the whole I'll kill em, if I get to keep their stuff thing and others).

I doubt that it is only his liking for Elan that is affecting his behaviour here. Keep in mind that he has much reason to hate Nale from before. After realizing it is him, attacking him on sight (or on smell) is a prefectly understandible reaction, even were Elan not a prisoner. Same goes for the rest of the OOTS, really.

[fwiffo]

All right! So, Belkar finally made his Scents Motive check!

*runs away from pun police*

[hewhosaysfish]

Just how stinky can Elan be? I mean, it's been 4 days since Nale put on Elan's clothes, and he smelled like Elan all the way up till just now? That means 3 days of what must've been a pretty grueling (and likely sweaty) travel didn't make Nale's smell overcome Elan's smell. So, just how badly does Elan stink that over 4 days someone wearing his clothes still smells like him and not like the wearer?

Or is this AD&D rule and I should not attempt to use real world rules?

Presumably the scents of Elan and Nale, while distinct, are similar enough for the traces on Elan's clothes to mask the subtle differences in his brother's odour.

[Esabelle Ryngin]

what about durkon? it might be him, since he gets to go home dead. :smallsmile:
Or he could be around to revive the party :smallbiggrin: It makes sense, he's a cleric.

[TreesOfDeath]

There is a logical flaw that Belkar would regard killing his allies as against his own best interest. Though Belkar would enjoy killing his allies and taking their stuff, the Mark of Justice would cause to fall ill then die and he knows it. Belkar would avoid a slow, painful suicide if possible.


Except that it might not be in his concious mind, his Wisdom is comparable to tables, and hes impulsive enough to do something like this with sufficent provaction or persuasion

[Blood]

Wow. Very...interesting comic. Suspenseful, too. Especially because of the MoJ...

[Martichoras]

At least this should also put an end to the stupid 'rape' debate! I hope very much that you are right. I am wondering whether Mr. Burlew was planning to clarify it in this comic, or whether the worry amony the fans forced his hand...

At any rate, I loved the "out of my system" bit, and the final three-panel joke :smallbiggrin:

[Grey Knight]

and then that Belkar noticed a difference in scent despite them being identical twins

Ah, but you're forgetting the unmistakeable Stench of Evil (Ex)!

[SteveMB]

provided Belkar doesnt kill the rest of the team, they are gonna find out...if the charm is broken, Belkar will telll, and if they cant break it, well SOMEBODY had to charm him.

Hmmm... Nale doesn't seem to have thought of ordering Belkar not to tell who charmed him, so it's just a matter of not being killed and asking.

[Death, your friend the Reaper]

Belkar is a rather unsettling character to have in your party.

I must attempt to make a belkar like character in my next game...

[Nighthawk4]

Very nice. I never expected to see Belkar confront Nale like that.

Just one minor thought - when Nale is talking of his plans for Haley, he says '....right when she's ready to let you have her way with her.....'

This should really be 'let you have your way with her' :smallsmile:


Still hope that :belkar: comes to his senses before :haley: has to kill him.

[Antina]

Simply amazing. I'm sure Belkar doesn't have the defenses against something like that magic attack.

I'm glad there's no rape. Just good ol' fashioned murder!

St. Louis in D&D? Odd. I expected it in Stargate or CSI, but not here.



The " ;-) " is missing at your post

[faeriehunter]

Just a thought - if Belkar has a remove curse / dispel magic cast on him, will that clear off the MoJ as well?
Dispel Magic cannot remove a MoJ. Remove Curse can remove a MoJ (provided the caster level of Remove Curse equals or exceeds the caster level of the Mark), but it cannot remove a Charm Person, since Charm Person isn't a curse.

And what about the M.O.J.? Does it stop Belkar from attacking people in general... or does it just stop him from consciencely attacking people??? Will it still apply if he's being charmed???
This particular Mark of Justice is set to activate as soon as Belkar deals lethal damage to a living creature within the bounds of any city, town or village, see here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html. It does not directly prevent Belkar from doing so, it merely activates when he does. Why Belkar does it is irrelevant. So yes, it still applies under the Charm.

Regarding Belkar's Will save, barring something really unexpected, he had +9 to save against that particular spell (+3 for ranger levels, +1 for being a halfling, and +5 for being in combat when the charm was attempted). Nale's DC for the spell is 11+ whatever his CHA modifier is, but probably no higher than DC15. That means a 6 would have succeeded. Belkar just plain rolled badly on it.
The +5 applies when the subject is being attacked by the caster or its apparent allies, not simply for being in combat. Since Belkar is the one doing the attacking, the +5 would only apply if you consider the casting of the Charm Person spell itself an attack (and that would mean that the +5 must always be applied).

[Antina]

All right! So, Belkar finally made his Scents Motive check!

*runs away from pun police*


Loved that one! Just great! :smallbiggrin:

[Kadasbrass]

I was honestly surprised about Belkar. So how long till he forgets Elan is really Nale and decides to kill him with nonlethal?

[Martichoras]

Hmm. Too shocked [snip!] that Belkar noticed a difference in scent despite them being identical twins.
That surprised me a bit too, but it is easy enough to rationalize: Nale seems to experience rather different emotional states than Elan, which would (in the real world) lead to different hormones permeating his body, and a difference in scent. My Significant Other can Scent Motive with some facility, and after some instruction from her, I have gained some ability myself. It is quite handy, at times, though it works mainly for sustained negative states.

[Aiani]

I always knew Nale was evil but he just seems to get worse and worse lately and yet somehow he still makes me laugh. It's about time someone finally figured out it is him even though Belkar didn't manage to kill him.

[Grasilich]

Question to those in the know about DnD:

Does the Mark of Justice activate when Belkar tries to kill someone or does it activate after he kills someone?

[hewhosaysfish]

That surprised me a bit too, but it is easy enough to rationalize: Nale seems to experience rather different emotional states than Elan, which would (in the real world) lead to different hormones permeating his body, and a difference in scent.

I do recall seeing a documentary about identical twins where they performed an an experiment involving hiding both twins in a field and giving a couple of dogs (I don't think they were bloodhounds, though) one twin's jumper.
And, yes, they had do difficulty telling them apart. I guess there's more than genetics at works. Could be hormones...

[Querzis]

Go Nale! If he can cast charm person it mean he got how many levels in sorcerer?

[AngryGreek]

Oh, I'm loving this. Belkar finally has the excuse he needs to be able to slaughter the party wholesale. Still wondering about the curse put on him in the Emerald City though, I suspect it might be more powerful than Nale's charm person.

[hewhosaysfish]

Question to those in the know about DnD:

Does the Mark of Justice activate when Belkar tries to kill someone or does it activate after he kills someone?

From the SRD.


You draw an indelible mark on the subject and state some behavior on the part of the subject that will activate the mark. When activated, the mark curses the subject. Typically, you designate some sort of criminal behavior that activates the mark, but you can pick any act you please.It's kind of ambiguous... but in the comic where we first learn about the specific mark on Belkar (#295) we are told that he is forbidden from dealing lethal damage to any living creature within the city limits.
If you interpret "lethal damge" not in a most literal sense as "damage that will kill" but in a DnD rules sense as "normal damage; not specifically non-lethal damage" then the mark will activate as soon as he wounds anyone, however slightly. Chopping off a couple of fingers for example, or a nose, would not be lethal but it would be "lethal damage".

EDIT
Querzis: He only actually needs one level of sorceror.

[DeathQuaker]

Awesome. Builds tons of suspense and is hilarious.

The "Meet me in St. Louis" bit just ices the cake. Especially just the idea that Belkar *knows* the score... I knew it! He's secretly a Judy Garland fan...

[Allandaros]

I would have thought that Belkar would have violently objected to the Meet Me in St Louis part. They forced us to watch that movie in high school. I still have nightmares.

Also...STUPID BELKAR! Why will you not learn to stab first, THEN pose triumphantly? :(

[Elcaz]

When I read the second to last panel I went: "Wow. So it's all talk. Belkar is actually loyal. There's still hope for him! He's not really evil, he's just misunderstood! He..."

Then I read the last panel, laughed and went back to square one.

Pretty good comic, Rich. I hope the first three panels bring peace to the "Nale is going to 'hurt' Haley!" crowd, when in fact, he just wants to kill her.

[StickMan]

I love that belkar is the one to figure it out.

[Yuki Akuma]

Question to those in the know about DnD:

Does the Mark of Justice activate when Belkar tries to kill someone or does it activate after he kills someone?

It activates after he deals lethal damage to any living creature (non-undead, non-construct) within the limits of any village, city or town. :smalltongue:

[Lord Zentei]

Go Nale! If he can cast charm person it mean he got how many levels in sorcerer?

It doesn't really reveal very much since it is a first level spell, for which he only needs one level. As has been pointed out though, the duration is one hour per caster level, so that would actually be more telling - though the Giant has bent the rules for plot reasons previously, of course.

[sun_tzu]

Few comics can make me really laugh out loud... this was one of them.
Likewise. That was absolutely hilarious.

[BardicLasher]

This was AWESOME. I figured Belkar would figure it out first.. And I always love it when Nale monologues. I'm loving this story arc.




Belkar's not an idiot. He could very well concievably kill another PC via a method OTHER than lethal damage, or via a method other than HIM dealing said lethal damage. Some examples include strangulation [deals nonlethal damage until a fort save vs. death], setting a trap [trap deals damage, not him], throwing them out a window [though V can feather fall and Roy probably has a higher grapple], or unleashing the dreaded Bag of Tricks [after stealing it from Roy.]

[Frozen_Northman]

The +5 applies when the subject is being attacked by the caster or its apparent allies, not simply for being in combat. Since Belkar is the one doing the attacking, the +5 would only apply if you consider the casting of the Charm Person spell itself an attack (and that would mean that the +5 must always be applied).

Technically, the +5 applies when the subject is threatened or attacked by the caster or its apparent allies. The question, then, is whether Belkar is threatened by Nale in that scuffle. This interpretation would leave open plenty of opportunities for not having the +5 bonus, such as casting it on a non-hostile NPC that needs to be "persuaded."

(Of course, Belkar is obviously "threatened" in this strip, as he is within a 5-foot step of Nale during a combat action, which would expose him to an attack of opportunity if he made a careless move action. This means that he is in a "threatened square." :smallcool: )

Charm Person also cannot make someone take a suicidal action, and Belkar has had the Mark of Justice curse pointed out to him previously by Elan. This leads me to suspect that Belkar is simply playing along with Nale, and successfully pulling the wool over his eyes. Belkar has shown himself to be a frighteningly good actor before.

[Gryndel]

Not sure if anyone brought this up yet, since I haven't read through all the forum posts in this thread. But in the first panel Nale says:

"You'll wine her and dine her and then, right when she's ready to let you have her way with her, you'll kill her instead."

Shouldn't the her be your?

[warmachine]

Except that it might not be in his concious mind, his Wisdom is comparable to tables, and hes impulsive enough to do something like this with sufficent provaction or persuasion
This explains why Belkar attacked Nale with lethal weapons, despite the mark of Justice, but not why he agreed to the second suggestion. After all, Belkar is not impulsive enough to agree to everything Nale suggests. Clearly, he thought about whether he'd want to hand over magical items. He'd certainly think about whether he'd want to die painfully and slowly. Prolonged pain is a real bummer.

[charik]

Hmmm... Nale doesn't seem to have thought of ordering Belkar not to tell who charmed him, so it's just a matter of not being killed and asking.

Arrg! I thought of this while reading page 2, but you beat me to it. It's the little things that can ruin an otherwise perfect plan.

[hewhosaysfish]

This explains why Belkar attacked Nale with lethal weapons, despite the mark of Justice, but not why he agreed to the second suggestion. After all, Belkar is not impulsive enough to agree to everything Nale suggests. Clearly, he thought about whether he'd want to hand over magical items. He'd certainly think about whether he'd want to die painfully and slowly. Prolonged pain is a real bummer.

Belkar didn't really have to think about the magic items; Nale speciifically mentioned then in his request. Belkar denied it out of reflex and then, when a direct appeal to greed was made instead, jumped on the chance without thinking the other implications (ie the MoJ) through. Simple, like Belkar's proto-brain.

[SiD]

Not sure if anyone brought this up yet, since I haven't read through all the forum posts in this thread. But in the first panel Nale says:

"You'll wine her and dine her and then, right when she's ready to let you have her way with her, you'll kill her instead."

Shouldn't the her be your?
Probably, though it could be explained away as a deliberate play on words on Nale's part: he doesn't want to 'have his way' with Haley in the obvious sense; that's what she will want, so it's really only her way. Nale's way, on the other hand, would be to kill her.


This explains why Belkar attacked Nale with lethal weapons, despite the mark of Justice, but not why he agreed to the second suggestion. After all, Belkar is not impulsive enough to agree to everything Nale suggests. Clearly, he thought about whether he'd want to hand over magical items. He'd certainly think about whether he'd want to die painfully and slowly. Prolonged pain is a real bummer.
Maybe handing over magical loot is just such a bone-deep no-no to Belkar that he didn't think about it at all - his refusal was practically instinctive. Maybe he has thought about it, but is biding his time before refusing to kill anyone? Maybe he has thought about it, and has already come up with a number of entertaining and hideously painful ways to kill V without breaching the MoJ? Maybe it was just a set-up for the punchline?

EDIT: Heh, simulposting fun with hewhosaysfish...

[Darkhands]

There is a logical flaw that Belkar would regard killing his allies as against his own best interest.


But that's not what he 'vehemently objected' to. This is Belkar we're talking about... He objected to giving all their magical items to Nale!! When Nale changed the command to let Belkar keep all their items, the objection went away. That's the joke! :)

[Runolfr]

Argh! Belkar was so sloppy!

Stab FIRST! Ask questions later (if at all).

[SteveMB]

Not sure if anyone brought this up yet, since I haven't read through all the forum posts in this thread. But in the first panel Nale says:

"You'll wine her and dine her and then, right when she's ready to let you have her way with her, you'll kill her instead."

Shouldn't the her be your?
This particular typo right after the reference to "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" made me think of the Kira/Intendant Kira scenes from DS9. :smallwink:

[Sereno]

There is a logical flaw that Belkar would regard killing his allies as against his own best interest. Though Belkar would enjoy killing his allies and taking their stuff, the Mark of Justice would cause to fall ill then die and he knows it. Belkar would avoid a slow, painful suicide if possible.

Does Nale even know about the MoJ? If not, it could be a flaw in his plan....

Heh ... I wonder what Belkar was going to cut.... :belkar:

:belkar: "...you spineless piece of weasel crap..." What a great insult!!

[SteveMB]

This explains why Belkar attacked Nale with lethal weapons, despite the mark of Justice, but not why he agreed to the second suggestion. After all, Belkar is not impulsive enough to agree to everything Nale suggests. Clearly, he thought about whether he'd want to hand over magical items. He'd certainly think about whether he'd want to die painfully and slowly. Prolonged pain is a real bummer.
That makes me suspect that the charm might fail when Belkar's intended victim reminds him about the Mark of Justice -- with Belkar consciously aware of the consequences, pressing the attack at least verges on the sort of "suicidal action" that Charm Person can't compel.

[Logos7]

The Mark of justice, if it is like in the SRD, isn't going to stop a violent serial stabbing fest, just make it less effective.

At best their's going to be a -3 or -4 to everything belkar does or he's going to have a 50/50 chance of not doing what he intends to do, which translates into it taking twice as long to kill everyone, but if he strikes swiftly with surprise! Stabity

Also i think that a Dispel magic is going to have a good chance of taking out the mark of justice, if it gets used. Yay for resolving two subplots with one dispel magic :smallconfused:

L

[Zeb The Troll]

The +5 applies when the subject is being attacked by the caster or its apparent allies, not simply for being in combat. Since Belkar is the one doing the attacking, the +5 would only apply if you consider the casting of the Charm Person spell itself an attack (and that would mean that the +5 must always be applied).
Well, actually, it says "threatened or attacked" by the caster or his allies. And since it's possible to cast Charm Person on someone who isn't in combat, and Belkar certainly IS in combat, I was going with "threatened by the caster" angle. They'd clearly rolled initiative already and there doesn't appear to have been a surprise round (true, Nale says "Gah!" like he's surprised, but he gets to cast a spell before Belkar can make a 5ft step and attack so, mechanically, it's not a surprise round and Nale even appears to have won initiative). Besides, "hasn't attacked yet" isn't the same as "is not threatening".

I kind of think of it this way: if your GM says "roll initiative" as soon as you see a known enemy (especially one who's a caster) round the corner, that known enemy starts casting a spell which you cannot identify (because you have 0 ranks in spellcraft and are not an arcane caster), are you not "threatened" by him? Heck, even if you CAN identify it, you've already made the conclusion that this is an enemy and would desire NOT to be charmed by him, right? I mean, it's not like Belkar would have to wonder what Nale's intentions are? He's already tried to kill him once.

[Zeb The Troll]

But that's not what he 'vehemently objected' to. This is Belkar we're talking about... He objected to giving all their magical items to Nale!! When Nale changed the command to let Belkar keep all their items, the objection went away. That's the joke! :)
I think warmachine's point was that Belkar should have refused both requests because he knows that acting on it will activate the MoJ.

[Tobrian]

Regarding Belkar's Will save, barring something really unexpected, he had +9 to save against that particular spell (+3 for ranger levels, +1 for being a halfling, and +5 for being in combat when the charm was attempted). Nale's DC for the spell is 11+ whatever his CHA modifier is, but probably no higher than DC15. That means a 6 would have succeeded. Belkar just plain rolled badly on it.

If he did blow his rage on this (and I think it's reasonable to consider that he might have since he attacked despite being acutely aware of the MoJ), that just means his will save roll was even worse since rage grants another +2.


The +5 applies when the subject is being attacked by the caster or its apparent allies, not simply for being in combat. Since Belkar is the one doing the attacking, the +5 would only apply if you consider the casting of the Charm Person spell itself an attack (and that would mean that the +5 must always be applied).

Additionally, we know that Belkar's Wisdom score is lower than 11 (and probably lower than 10), since he cannot cast ranger spells or was unable to cast a Cure spell from a scroll until V gave him a WIS boost with Owl's Wisdom. My personal estimate of his WIS would have been 06, but since V's spell grants a flat +4 under 3.5 rules, Belkar must have a WIS of at least 07, probably 08 (because using the D&D point buy system the lowest basis score you can start with in an attribute is 08, and halflings have no further racial modifier in wisdom). A score of 07 gives a -2 modifier, a score of 08 a -1.

Which leaves Belkar with a +3 Will from his ranger levels and +1 racial bonus as a halfling, but -1 from low attribute score, for a total of +3. A Rage might have added another +2, but we don't know for sure if Belkar activated one.

On the other hand, Nale is part sorcerer with specialized interest in Enchantment, as he himself stated, so it's logical to assume that he has bought the feat 'Spell Focus: Enchantment', maybe even 'Greater Spell Focus' (under 3.5, Greater Spell Focus now only gives a measely +2 to the spell DC, not +4 as it used to in 3.0 :smallannoyed: ). And that's only the most obvious route to boost his spell DC against the opponent's saving throws. Nale is clearly a multi-classing min-maxer at heart, so we can assume his CHA is at least 18. So even at a conservative estimate, the DC of his Charm spell might have been a 17.

Plus, hey, narrativium particles are not susceptible to crunchy rules. ;-) And it's much funnier this way.

[Erloas]

That was just great.

I think Nale screwed up his own plan again... what is going to draw more attention to the fact that Belkar is under some wierd influence then having him singing show tunes? I have a feeling Belkar's singing will help everyone else figure out something is wrong before Belkar gets a chance to stab anyone. Its not like you can sneak up on someone while singing, as Elan has shown before.

[Roethke]

Wonderful. The best part is that I've always imagined Belkar as this evil-Danny Devito type, and imagining him singing "Meet Me in St. Louis" is a real hoot.

[TaxiMan]

Nale got to cast his spell because Belkar didn't really attack him - Belkar knows about his MoJ. Belkar was furious and wanted to kill Nale, but was holding back until a plan could bubble forth from his murderous brain.

Now Belkar will have to work around the MoJ, assuming he really is charmed. Why not invite / lure his victim outside Azure City?

[BiggusGeekus]

For the record:

I was wrong. I thought Belkar knew about Nale.

My bad.

[Zeb The Troll]

Additionally, we know that Belkar's Wisdom score is lower than 11 (and probably lower than 10), since he cannot cast ranger spells or was unable to cast a Cure spell from a scroll until V gave him a WIS boost with Owl's Wisdom. My personal estimate of his WIS would have been 06, but since V's spell grants a flat +4 under 3.5 rules, Belkar must have a WIS of at least 07, probably 08 (because using the D&D point buy system the lowest basis score you can start with in an attribute is 08, and halflings have no further racial modifier in wisdom). A score of 07 gives a -2 modifier, a score of 08 a -1.
Actually, we know that his Wisdom score is exactly 10. With an 11 he could cast 1st level spells since 6th level and would have known it. With a 9, even with the Owl's Wisdom boost, he would not have been able to cast the CSW from a scroll because, for a ranger, that is a 4th level spell.


On the other hand, Nale is part sorcerer with specialized interest in Enchantment, as he himself stated, so it's logical to assume that he has bought the feat 'Spell Focus: Enchantment', maybe even 'Greater Spell Focus' (under 3.5, Greater Spell Focus now only gives a measely +2 to the spell DC, not +4 as it used to in 3.0 :smallannoyed: ). And that's only the most obvious route to boost his spell DC against the opponent's saving throws. Nale is clearly a multi-classing min-maxer at heart, so we can assume his CHA is at least 18. So even at a conservative estimate, the DC of his Charm spell might have been a 17.
I hadn't considered the Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus feats but I doubt seriously that Nale's CHA is above 18, and indeed may not even be that high simply because, as you stated, he's a min/maxer and by putting that one stat that high, he would have gimped his fighter and/or rogue classes. If point buy was used, Nale could have either an 18 in one stat and a 14 in two others (that's 28 points right there), or he could have a 16 in all three (for 30 points). I think he'd go with the 3 x 16's myself.

This is at character creation of course. He's likely had 3 stat points to add since then which means, if he were planning, he could have started with one 18, one 15, and one 14 and by now had them up to 18/16/16. But even if he did that, I suspect that dexterity would have been the first 18 because it helps out more at lower levels (AC and initiative) and the higher CHA doesn't come in quite as handy until later on (one or two extra spells per spell level and a 1 or 2 point bump in DC for what are likely only 1st and 2nd level spells even now). Likewise, if I'm not mistaken, Nale wears chain normally, like Elan does, and if so he's clearly not interested in maximizing the caster levels as much as he is the fighter levels.

[TheWanderingLlama]

St. Louis in D&D? Odd. I expected it in Stargate or CSI, but not here.


Which of these things is not like the other? Those two don't really seem to go together, but I get what you mean. Hmm, I watched both those shows last night.

By the way, I'm pretty sure those St. Louis lyrics are long. Should've looked 'em up, Giant. I was in Meet Me In St. Louis when I was eight or so, and I still remember everything. I'll never get it out of my head.

[Tomada]

You can't keep us on our toes like this, Giant!!!!!!!

Oh, well, actually you can... But I sure hoped this could go faster. It's killing me to know not-not-Nale can put his plan through....

[Hyrael]

It doesn't really reveal very much since it is a first level spell, for which he only needs one level. As has been pointed out though, the duration is one hour per caster level, so that would actually be more telling - though the Giant has bent the rules for plot reasons previously, of course.
:nale: might have taken Practiced Spellcaster to increase his castere level (+4 CL, but not above your HD.). It's a must-have for those of us who take a few levels of caster, then multiclass. Nale is a perfectionist class-builder (he doesnt cheeze out or try to build some sort of broken combo, but once he picks a character concept, he does whatever he can to make it as good as possible) that means that he took at least 4 levels of sorceror (2nd level spells), 4 levels of fighter (fighter 3 stupid level, :thog: not take), and 3 levels of rogue (2d6 sneak attack). Since he's around 12-14th level like the party, that leaves quite a bit of leeway in his class selection. He may even have taken 6 levels of sorceror, though that would be the limit.

[VMorticia]

I have two magic words to this latest issue, but I'd best let V explain it... in a funny skit:


:belkar: :smallamused:
:vaarsuvius: Ah, Belkar, my diminutive ally, I require your menial assistance in this minor project.
:belkar: You die now! *attacks, while singing, and with swirly eyes gleaming*
:vaarsuvius: :smallconfused: Dispel Magic.
:belkar: wtf? :smallfurious: NALE!!!!
:vaarsuvius: excuse me? :smallconfused:
:belkar: NALE! The smell, like how I knew when Roy was a babe... Elan's not Elan, he's NALE!
:roy: you knew?!? :smalleek:
:belkar: I believe there are other issues than your emasculation right now, meatshield, like oh I don't know, the OTHER homicidal maniac amongst us! That's my job and I'm NOT letting him steal it!
:roy: :smallsigh: you're right... unfortunately.

:belkar: :vaarsuvius: and :roy: (and maybe :durkon: if he's nearby at the time) burst in one :haley: and not-:elan:'s date just in time... interestingness insues.



Lets just say im really hopeing Nale gets a good load of damage. I dont mind if he gets away, he's too good a villain to kill off, but sending him off at like 5 hp would be nice.
1 hp would be better, imo.


... kill him with nonlethal?
I'm sorry, I'm a nitpicker, but that is a contradiction of terms. An oxymoron.

And is it just me, or does the concept of Belkar singing show tunes remind anyone else of Bender in Futurama singing whever anyone puts a magnet near him.

[~The Patriots~]

This is getting bad for Haley, although he can't keep his cover for much longer.

[Tomada]

ok. I love rich and I know he's doing this on purpose.. but OMG can you drag out the different dimensions of suspense any more? how many characters need to be involved before we finally have some resolution?!
I love some depth of narrative but this is getting to be too much..
what's next? V discovers some random previous fishy aspect of "Elan's" behavior and Roy agrees that it's not him so they're all ready to kick his ass? (10 strips later) come on!
I know it's part of building the story and suspense but we can do without the random character interventions that just lead to more subplots~

/rant off

love ya rich, but hurry up you're makin me giddy :smalltongue:


I agree, this kind of plot postponing is called by me: "The Freezza VS Goku syndrome".

it's where the autor reaches the top point of his story and just can't make it last less than half a year...

[StarWidget]

Who'd've thunk that the little angry one would get it, first... huh. I suppose the people who can't stand you really *do* know you best...

And - OH NOES!

[StarWidget]

And is it just me, or does the concept of Belkar singing show tunes remind anyone else of Bender in Futurama singing whever anyone puts a magnet near him.


I was thinking more "A Clockwork Orange", myself...

[SixOfSpades]

Did Nale have to touch Belkar just there in order to Charm him?

[killfxx]

I hope OOTS reveals it is really Nale and then give him the worse punishment...

Give him to Haley

[fractal]

I hope Nale has considered that daggers really don't deal very much damage when you can't sneak attack.

[Gamebird]

Meet Me in St. Louis lyrics:
Meet me in St. Louis, Louis.
Meet me at the fair.
Don't tell me the lights are shining
Any place but there.

We will dance the hoochie coochie.
I will be your tootsie wootsie
If you will meet me in St. Louis, Louis.
Meet me at the fair.

Esther & Rose:
meet me in st. louis, louis
meet me at the fair
don't tell me the lights are shining
anyplace but there
we will dance the hootchie-kootchie
i will be your tootsie-wootsie
if you will meet me in st. louis, louis
meet me at the fair!

meet me in st. louis, louis
meet me at the fair
don't tell me
the lights are shining
anyplace but there
we'll kootchie
kootchie kootchie
we'll be
a tootsie-wootsie
if you will meet me
in st. louis, louis
meet me in the fair
la la la la la
la la la la
la la la la la la,
louis
ta ta ta ta
ta ta ta ta
la la la
la la la la la
anyplace but there
la la la la
la la la
i will be
your tootsie-wootsie
if you will meet me
in st. louis, louis
meet me at
the fair!


However, those are the lyrics to a single song. Nale told him to sing the complete score (which incidentally a "score" is the music, whereas the lyrics are the words - you can't sing a score). I figure Nale meant the lyrics to the entire play.

-----------------

As for the surprise round thing:
Belkar opens door and says the Parcheesi line. He detects Nale.
Surprise round, partial action only: Belkar draws one dagger (this assumes Belkar doesn't have Quickdraw).
Round 1: Belkar wins initiative and draws his other dagger and threatens Nale. Why doesn't he attack Nale right away? Because of the MoJ. He then speaks a bit. It's possible he starts a Grapple attack, which puts Nale on the floor with Belkar on top of him.
Nale casts Charm Person. This is a verbal/somatic spell. It seems unlikely that he has Silent Spell, but certainly possible. About as possible as him having a Lesser Rod of Silent Spell - a cheap and useful magic item that he wouldn't be prevented from using if grappled. If Belkar had not grappled him, then Nale only needs to pass a Concentration check (of if he fails it, avoid Belkar's AoO, or if hit by the AoO, make the 2nd Concentration check) to get the spell off.

If the MoJ activates, it doesn't stop Belkar from doing things. It just penalizes him a bit.

-6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
-4 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll), saves, ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks), and skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks).
Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.

Activating the MoJ isn't so against Belkar's best interests that it would break the Charm Person. If Belkar is willing to kill his allies, then dealing with the MoJ is trivial.

[Tomada]

I hope Nale has considered that daggers really don't deal very much damage when you can't sneak attack.


Yep, Nale doesn't have enough rogue levels to sneak up on haley's uncanny dodge.

[Jack_Banzai]

Loved the line "I don't want to go all 'Bond Villain" and forget to finish the job" and Belkar bragging about a game of Parcheesi is just awesome.


I wonder if the Giant is a Green Arrow fan. I seem to remember GA, once or twice, referring to sexual congress as "Parcheesi".

[EdgarVerona]

See people, she's not gonna get raped... only murdered! Jeez, and you guys were all worried and stuff.

Aye, and in the worst case scenario, she's brought back with no harm done through a Resurrection spell.

EDIT: Of course, that's IF the other members live long enough to find her and get her resurrected. I'm sure Nale has a wicked plan for their demise too, so it'll be an interesting plot.

[Kython]

wait a minute... Belkar still has the mark of justice on him...
if Belkar actually attacks someone, he's going to feel the effects of the curse. this means he has one good attack before the curse kicks in...

who's gonna get stabbed then? (my money's on V)

and once he does, they'll want to figure out why he did it and find out that nale's there!

[dcviana]

Aye, and in the worst case scenario, she's brought back with no harm done through a Resurrection spell.

EDIT: Of course, that's IF the other members live long enough to find her and get her resurrected. I'm sure Nale has a wicked plan for their demise too, so it'll be an interesting plot.



He didn't kill Belkar 'cause he couldn't hide the body, but with Haley it will be different, he CAN hide the body (unless he is interrupted) and you can't really ressurect someone without a body unless you have access to the highest level resurrect spells. And if he manages to kill Haley, he probably will hide this fact, saying something like "she went to buy some clothes, she'll be back soon", until he manages to kill everybody else.



So, it's better he doesn't succed, or else there'll be no resurrection for Haley.

[Nashua]

I KNEW Belkar got the opening lyrics wrong to "Meet Me in St. Louis"! Maybe he isn't a musical theater fan? Thanks for posting the right ones!

Edit: Thanks for posting the right ones, Gamebird.

[garylian]

Great stuff, Giant.

I wouldn't have thought that Belkar was the one to see through things.

As other people have pointed out, the Charm Person and the MoJ should make for a great clash.

Now that Belkar has any Will to clash, but still!

[Solmage]

Kill, kill, kill your obliviously clueless allies! :D

[silvadel]

Very interesting development... It is interesting that Belkar could pick him up by scent... I think Nale could have worded that much better (speculation below under spoiler)


First off -- isn't Nale considered an ally now by definition of the spell? I mean he pretty much gave Belkar carte blanche to backstab him the minute he leaves the room....

The second issue is -- does he really consider oots his allies? He certainly wouldnt consider V to be an ally. They are his travelling companions for kicks but allies? Naw.

The third thing is if V is right then he is now under the lust category and risks being the focus of Belkars attentions.....

[The Hammer of Thor]

Belkar is slipping.....Why didn't he kill Nale quicker?
He could have had another hat.
And nachos can't be hard to find in a city.

[warmachine]

Maybe handing over magical loot is just such a bone-deep no-no to Belkar that he didn't think about it at all - his refusal was practically instinctive. Maybe he has thought about it, but is biding his time before refusing to kill anyone? Maybe he has thought about it, and has already come up with a number of entertaining and hideously painful ways to kill V without breaching the MoJ? Maybe it was just a set-up for the punchline?
What? And refusing a slow, painful death is not a bone deep, instictive no-no? Unless we assume Belkar has a masochistic deathwish.

The second explanation seems unlikely. Charmed people tend to be honest with people they think are their friends.

The third does work. Belkar is devious enough to kill someone without having to do the dirty deed himself.

[Amon Star]

So, now we know. Nice one Giant! :smile:

[Shadic]

Waiting for V or Durkon to realize what is happened to him, and then dispell it.

I like Belkar so much more after this strip, that was awesome to see him attack Nale like that.

Wondering exactly how this is going to turn out, perhaps the OotS is going to break into Haley's "date" while they're getting 'sensual,' and before a certain person gets murderous?

Imagine how embarassed she'd be then.

[Xenon]

ah, trustworthy belkar :) how i do love the restrictions of charm person. although his wolverine-like sense of smell is a bit disturbing...

i think the song is part of the 'craft disturbing mental image' set.

but revealing your evil plan to your reflection while shaving... villian knows his overlord rules.

[chibibar]

heh... it seems that Charm overcome the normal thinking. cause the mark of justice restrict won't allow lethal damage.

[Pantler]

Oh boy, I really laughed out loud after this one :smallbiggrin:
Not really a spoiler, just some food to boil on: who will be attacked by Belkar? My guess:
I'd hope it's V, but that would be all to obvious :belkar:

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

nale doesn't know about the charm, so although he can still command him to do things (like kill somebody) he will not be able to do it because of the charm

[Evil_Pacifist]

Awesome! I can't wait...

[krossbow]

Nale could of prepared the spell as a maximized spell, increasing the DC by an additional 3 as well. So, if he has spell focus and corrosponding feats, 18 charisma, and has maximized it, then the save would be 20.





Heh. Go nale. The only thing I hated about this comic was I felt I'd heard all the "suprises" earlier in threads about Nale killing haley instead of smiting evil with her, and of Belkar identifying him based on smell.

[fangthane]

Several things, and clearing up some misconceptions held by people in this thread.
1. Dispel magic won't do jack for the mark. Break Enchantment, wish and miracle are the ideal ways to deal with it, or if Durkon's higher level than the original caster, Remove Curse will work. Dispel, Disjunction and the rest won't do squat. In fact, it's sort of amusing that while Elan could have removed the Mark (with Song of Freedom), Nale can't.
2. How deliciously ironic that in a comic entitled "What's really scary is that he knows the words" it's established that, in fact, he doesn't. That's absolutely beautiful and at this point Rich has an uphill road if he intends to claim it was deliberate ;) We all make mistakes though; at least his provided some humour.
3. Don't necessarily assume that the OotS are Belkar's only allies in the city. His most valuable, certainly, but there are others.
4. Belkar wouldn't necessarily have received an attack of opportunity for Nale to cast anyhow; Charm's a first-level spell, Nale's a 12+ level character, and with a minimum of 3 rogue levels he's got at least 24 skill points there; how inconceivable is it that he could fail a DC 16 concentration check for casting defensively? Even at only half ranks, he's got above a 50/50 shot; with full ranks, he can only fail critically.

[timbot]

I didnt have enough patience to figure out if anyone already said this, but what I see happening is that Belkar will attack V, and V will respond with Counterspell or Dispel Magic. Thus ending the Charm, and they burst upon Nale right before he kills Haley. Someone will get injured, thus changing the appearance with a scar of some sort. Or perhaps someone will be killed, and thus be transformed into a quasi-Xykon.

[Vulion]

Something tells me that the next comic is gonna involve explosions...since I think Belkar's goin' after our ever ambiguosly gendered elf.

[luffy316]

I simply loved Belkar's reaction to discovering Nale. A little bit of fondness for Elan, a little bit of doing the right thing (if not inadvertantly), a little bit of awesome looking.

And I have to wonder if this will have something to do with Belkar's question with the Oracle...:smalleek: But it's probably far too soon for that.

[timbot]

It is also possible that Miko will ride into the city, Belkar will see her, and will kill her, thus preventing her from telling the all-important news that Xykon was coming.

[it17]

I was about to comment on the fact that Belkar would get an attack of opportunity but then I remembered that he cant do leathal damage so his choices were to grapple or to do nonleathal damage. That was an awsome graple check, and against a high level fighter rogue and a size modifier. Belkar rolled very High

[brionl]

I agree, this kind of plot postponing is called by me: "The Freezza VS Goku syndrome".

it's where the autor reaches the top point of his story and just can't make it last less than half a year...

"The planet Namek will be destroyed in 5 minutes!"
10 episodes later...
"The planet Namek will be destroyed in 4 minutes!"

It's almost as bad as football.

Of course I knew right away why Belkar refused Nale's first command to kill everybody.

[silvadel]

I didnt have enough patience to figure out if anyone already said this, but what I see happening is that Belkar will attack V, and V will respond with Counterspell or Dispel Magic. Thus ending the Charm, and they burst upon Nale right before he kills Haley. Someone will get injured, thus changing the appearance with a scar of some sort. Or perhaps someone will be killed, and thus be transformed into a quasi-Xykon.

You are forgetting how much V dislikes Belkar (wants revenge etc). I could easily see V (whether she knew Belkar was charmed or not) using the provocation to eliminate Belkar as opposed to trying to free the beast.

[hewhosaysfish]

It is also possible that Miko will ride into the city, Belkar will see her, and will kill her, thus preventing her from telling the all-important news that Xykon was coming.

Yeah, because Belkar considers Miko an ally... :smallamused:

[Father Dale]

I'm still wondering how the Charm Person can give Nale the ability to order Belkar to kill his friends. I mean, it changes Belkar's attitude towards Nale to friendly (not helpful though). What's Belkar's attitude towards the rest of the party? I just don't see a first level spell having the kind of power that makes you kill your party members.

Of course, thats how my DM plays it.

Also, if Belkar comes within the area of a Magic Circle or a Hallow/Unhallow the charm would be suppressed. Although I don't see him making a trip to the Holy Temple of Thor.

[Tomada]

Nale could of prepared the spell as a maximized spell, increasing the DC by an additional 3 as well. So, if he has spell focus and corrosponding feats, 18 charisma, and has maximized it, then the save would be 20.





Heh. Go nale. The only thing I hated about this comic was I felt I'd heard all the "suprises" earlier in threads about Nale killing haley instead of smiting evil with her, and of Belkar identifying him based on smell.

AFAIK maximize spell don't increase the DC:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell
But Heighten can
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell


AND metamagic spontaneous spells are full-round actions, they would be due before Nale's next turn, wich would be after rather large dagger injury, that would force a nice concentration check.

[Mewtarthio]

Charm Person also cannot make someone take a suicidal action, and Belkar has had the Mark of Justice curse pointed out to him previously by Elan. This leads me to suspect that Belkar is simply playing along with Nale, and successfully pulling the wool over his eyes. Belkar has shown himself to be a frighteningly good actor before.

A spellcaster always knows if his spell succeeds, even if the effect is subtle enough to be unseen or if there's no obvious sign. Belkar couldn't fake being Charmed since Nale would already know he made the Will save, unless Rich is using the Spelltouched feats (one of them lets you recognize a Charm or Dominate spell if you make your save and makes the caster believe he's succeeded).

[KeiranHalcyon]

I predict that Belkar will attempt to kill another OOTSer, the Mark will kick in and the story will come out, then we'll see an exciting race to save Haley. Whether she'll actually die or not I have no idea, but if she does, who's going to pay to resurrect her?

In the short term, I'm sure Haley has enough loot to cover her own resurrection, but she'll make sure Nale pays her back for it in one form or another.
It seems Belkar will be waiting in the men's bathroom... which means Durkon, Roy, and... and... Well, if he meets V, we'll have answered one of the great questions of our time.

It's unlikely that V will ever be seen entering a bathroom, since s/he only needs to take take of such business "every few weeks or so." Even sinks are unnecessary when one has the prestidigitation cantrip.

[Angela Christine]

Just how stinky can Elan be? I mean, it's been 4 days since Nale put on Elan's clothes, and he smelled like Elan all the way up till just now? That means 3 days of what must've been a pretty grueling (and likely sweaty) travel didn't make Nale's smell overcome Elan's smell. So, just how badly does Elan stink that over 4 days someone wearing his clothes still smells like him and not like the wearer?

Or is this AD&D rule and I should not attempt to use real world rules?


By real world, or at least modern American, standards adventurers are probably pretty stinky. They certainly aren't having a bath every day when on the road, probably not even once a week. And they probably wash their clothes even less often than they wash their bodies. They don't have electric clothes driers, so if you wash your clothes then you have to hang them to dry for a day, and if you hang them in front of the fire to dry faster then they will end up smelling like wood smoke. Leather garments don't get "washed" at all, at best you clean them occasionally using oil. Nale hadn't washed up until he was getting ready for his date, and as far as we know he still may not have washed his adventuring outfit, and nobody thought that was weird. The middle ages were stinky.

Given the general level of hygiene and the fact that Nale and Elan probably have quite similar personal scents, it isn't unreasonable that Elan's dirty adventuring clothes obscured Nale's scent.


Another possibility is that Nale uses a distinctive cologne or aftershave. His natural scent is nearly identical to his twin's, but his cologne is different. He didn't waste any during the trip, but now that he is getting all dolled up for his date he puts on his cologne because he thinks it drives the girls wild. :smallwink: Elan never wears that scent, so the halfling immediately associated it with the only person he'd smelled it on, Nale. But since we don't see anything that looks like a bottle of cologne or aftershave, I doubt this is it.

It is more likely that Elan's unwashed adventuring outfit was smelly enough to obscure Nale's quite similar scent.

[hewhosaysfish]

I'm still wondering how the Charm Person can give Nale the ability to order Belkar to kill his friends. I mean, it changes Belkar's attitude towards Nale to friendly (not helpful though). What's Belkar's attitude towards the rest of the party? I just don't see a first level spell having the kind of power that makes you kill your party members.


That is how the spell is written, yes. It makes you regard the caster as your trusted friend and ally. Normally not enough to make a character turn on his party.
But this is Belkar. At the moment he probably likes Nale more than he's liked anyone else and if your best friend in the whole world asks you "Could you do me a favour and take out the garbage" you'll do it of course. And in Belkar's mind the only difference between taking out the garbage and murdering someone and burying them under a compost heap is that garbage doesn't scream in such an amusing way.

[Flak_Razorwill]

Which of these things is not like the other? Those two don't really seem to go together, but I get what you mean. Hmm, I watched both those shows last night.


Ah, confusion. I seem to sow that better than anything else.

I was talking about this old photoshop of the St. Louis arch, replaced with a stargate. Since a lot of people were panning Stargate Atlantis, they figured St. Louis might have been a better location.

The same thread goes with CSI. There's 3 series, and one has been suggested in Boise as a joke by Wierd Al. Why not another in St. Louis?

Go dagger shaving!

[Doug Lampert]

AFAIK maximize spell don't increase the DC:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell
But Heighten can
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell


AND metamagic spontaneous spells are full-round actions, they would be due before Nale's next turn, wich would be after rather large dagger injury, that would force a nice concentration check.
Metamagiced spells go on your initiative. From the SRD:
If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions), casting a metamagic version is a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

It's only 1-round casting time spells that take till the next round, metamagiced spells go at the same speed as a full-attack.

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

It is more likely that Elan's unwashed adventuring outfit was smelly enough to obscure Nale's quite similar scent.

The disguise skill is opposed by a spot check.

Given Belkar's oft-discussed absence of skill points in spot (and lack of Wisdom, to boot), Nale's odor must have been one heck of a conditional modifer.

[Caractacus]

I don't know about you people, but I try to read the cartoon carefully, without letting my eye travel too quickly down the page and spoiling the coming panels.

When I saw Belkar go for Nale, I nearly cheered aloud - it was fantastic.

I just love his attack mode! :smallcool:

I can't wait to see it again...and this time followed through with highly discommoding damage. Get that Charm off our ranger and give vent to all the righteous (for once) anger and hate!

[Gamebird]

Belkar has a lot of reasons to accept an order to kill his "ally" Vaarsuvious. I like the kill-Miko idea even better, though I don't think Miko would count as an ally. Belkar's smart enough to figure that he should just go attack V, because then he can get away with perhaps killing V by saying it was Nale's spell that made him do it.

[Father Dale]

Belkar has a lot of reasons to accept an order to kill his "ally" Vaarsuvious. I like the kill-Miko idea even better, though I don't think Miko would count as an ally. Belkar's smart enough to figure that he should just go attack V, because then he can get away with perhaps killing V by saying it was Nale's spell that made him do it.

I bet V has some Anti-Halfling contingency spells going on....

[Monstershach]

First Post on this Board *-*

Great Comic !!

I have to read it again and again when i have enough time.
All of the 383 strips

#383 is cool^^ especially "you smell different", so simple and genius^^

I think Belkar will prepare a trapped room as he did with Miko. Or will he first kill Haley? Or will he enter the room to kill Haley when Nale and Haley are together ? I just cant decide which of this idea i will re-think until the next comic is released^^ Maybe all of them *-*

[Grod_The_Giant]

lol great comic. "I love being evil" is a great line (though still, nothing tops "I took craft distubing mental image as my feat last level). And maybe, for comic 400, it will be Elan (not-nale, not nale) and Haley's first kiss

[Nupo]

I love the comic and the forum as well.
For my first post I will make a prediction:

Nale's deception will be discovered by the rest of the OOTS and Haley will get saved, but Nale will escape. Meanwhile Elan escapes from prison and when the OOTS runs into him they mistake him for Nale.

[humanpylon]

All right! So, Belkar finally made his Scents Motive check!

*runs away from pun police*

That.....was absolutely priceless! *applauds wildly*

[PhoenixRising]

I actually thought Belkar would be the first... then Haley second, and Roy last.
I was wondering why Belkar didn't notice Nale at first... but now we see our author not being forgetful, but paying attention to detail.
Just what's gonna happen next?
Will Nale ly blurt part of his plan?
Haley is slightly cautious of this... guessing he may be a doppelganger... will she figure it out?

And what about the M.O.J.? Does it stop Belkar from attacking people in general... or does it just stop him from consciencely attacking people??? Will it still apply if he's being charmed???
And who will be his first target? Roy? V? Durkon?
Remember Belk's prophecy... there is a chance in fate that he can/will kill Roy and/or V...
and... finally....

WILL WE EVER FIND OUT IF V IS MALE OR FEMALE!!!????

edit:

Actually, remember V's /hate list, he probably secretly s for Haley.

He's going to go out to kill the party, but run into :miko: and Windstriker on the way. He kills the horse. Or else, he goes out, sees the Prophet, and stabs him. Then we see the rubber ducky running away to get help.

[baerdith]

New comic is up.

YES!!

It is about time.

(that Belkar tried to kill Nale, not about a wait for the comic....:smallredface:)

[Mewtroid]

"Ready to let you have her way with her".

That seem a bit off to anyone else?

[Wolfram]

I am gonna hate myself...

*STAB*STAB*STAB* went the Halfling
*CHOP*CHOP*CHOP* as well!
*SLASH*SLASH*SLASH* went the daggers.
And his buddies began to fell!

Yes, I like Broadway musicals. But I am straight. Really.
BTW, if Nale were less evil, would our favorite psycho be singing 'Guys and Dolls?'

[The Extinguisher]

Nah, Nale's a egotistical jerk. It's fairly obvious he'll think he's going to be a big success on his date.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

What is this "St. Louis" he speaks of?

(No one said that yet, right? I have better things to do than read 6 pages of posts.)

[Pronounceable]

Nale is forcing his way up on my favorite characters list. He just got below Thog and above Elan.

I predict Nale will perish (at some distant future) by falling from a great height. It worked for Nicholson's Joker, the guy in Die Hard and Stavro Blofeld.

[Bluephoenix]

SAINT FREAKING LOUIS PEOPLE!!!! THAT'S RIGHT! Hometown getting some recognition!! MWUHAHHAH


And yes, I do feel bad and a little pathetic for registering JUST to say that :P

[Wolfram]

SAINT FREAKING LOUIS PEOPLE!!!! THAT'S RIGHT! Hometown getting some recognition!! MWUHAHHAH


Oh dear. Your joy has made me realize something. Nale is a Judy Galrand fan.


*AIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!*

[Wolfram]

The "Meet me in St. Louis" bit just ices the cake. Especially just the idea that Belkar *knows* the score... I knew it! He's secretly a Judy Garland fan...

Insert munchkin joke here. :smallbiggrin:

[CelestialStick]

Just a thought - if Belkar has a remove curse / dispel magic cast on him, will that clear off the MoJ as well?

You can cast a targeted dispel magic on a spell or creature. If the caster targets Belkar with the dispel magic, it would have a chance to dispel each spell on Belkar. If the caster targets only the charm, however, it has no chance to dispel other spells on him.

[DanMan]

:belkar:: damnit!

I would have paid good money to see Belkar split Nale open and wear his entrails like a feather boa.

[Kython]

You can cast a targeted dispel magic on a spell or creature. If the caster targets Belkar with the dispel magic, it would have a chance to dispel each spell on Belkar. If the caster targets only the charm, however, it has no chance to dispel other spells on him.

no, no, NO! it will dispel the charm-person spell but not the MoJ. it says in the description for the Mark of Justice that it cannot be removed except by break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, and wish. And, if one were to use remove curse, the caster would have to be of a higher caster level than the one that put the mark on in the first place.

[Yzorth]

This might be how Belkar dies...

He hurts a party member. Mark of Justice kills him.

O_O

Giant, please don't let Belkar die... ='-(

[CelestialStick]

As for the surprise round thing:
Belkar opens door and says the Parcheesi line. He detects Nale.
Surprise round, partial action only: Belkar draws one dagger (this assumes Belkar doesn't have Quickdraw).

3.0 had partial actions; 3.5 doesn't. In 3.5 you get one action during the surprise round. :smallsmile:


What is this "St. Louis" he speaks of?

(No one said that yet, right? I have better things to do than read 6 pages of posts.)

LOL! :smallbiggrin:

[Felinoid]

Did Nale have to touch Belkar just there in order to Charm him?
Congrats on the Spot check, but I need to go wash my eyes with acid now. :eek:

[CelestialStick]

no, no, NO! it will dispel the charm-person spell but not the MoJ. it says in the description for the Mark of Justice that it cannot be removed except by break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, and wish. And, if one were to use remove curse, the caster would have to be of a higher caster level than the one that put the mark on in the first place.

A single "no" would have sufficed. Someone beat you to the punch anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Alysar]

Oh dear. Your joy has made me realize something. Nale is a Judy Galrand fan.


*AIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!*



I direct your attention to the last panel of #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)

[CelestialStick]

Did Nale have to touch Belkar just there in order to Charm him?

Um, it's not a touch spell.

[Mewtroid]

Did Nale have to touch Belkar just there in order to Charm him?

...Of course. The one time a Spot check is successful within a hundred miles of this comic, and it's THAT. LOVELY.

[KaroLunel]

I wonder what was so interesting about a game of parcheesi....

[CelestialStick]

I wonder what was so interesting about a game of parcheesi....

It's the cheese. :smallwink:

[Zweee]

This might be how Belkar dies...

He hurts a party member. Mark of Justice kills him.

O_O

Giant, please don't let Belkar die... ='-(

I agree. Don't kill Belkar. I like the swirly eyes though.

[Turcano]

Oh dear. Your joy has made me realize something. Nale is a Judy Galrand fan.


*AIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!*
I direct your attention to the last panel of #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)

Oh snap!

Now you know that Nale is evil. I mean compelling a person to kill his or her teammates, but "Meet Me in St. Louis"? That's just sadistic.

[K'tai]

Loved the comic! Read since the start and just now registered so I could say TOTALLY AWESOME!! GO BELKAR!

[Maratanos]

can't... wait... till... Friday... :frown:

[Maerad of Pellinor]

So is he going to go try to kill V. and s/he'll cast Dispel Magic on him?

Somehow I get the idea that there's going to be an intermission on Friday....*sigh*

[K'tai]

So is he going to go try to kill V. and s/he'll cast Dispel Magic on him?

Somehow I get the idea that there's going to be an intermission on Friday....*sigh*

No...intermission? NOO!!! I hate cliffhangers....please spare us...

[the_tick_rules]

Not exactly sure how Belkar got the scent ability, is that a ranger or halfling thing? But the strip is funny enough to where i don't really care.

[Slaadi]

This is what I think will happen:
Belkar will go after ether Roy or V first. Remember Belkar's Question to the oricle?

[Nightfall]

Fantastic.

Clearly, Belkar has invested ranks in a non-standard Sniff skill. How'd he miss the AoO?

Perhaps Nale has Quicken Spell? That would allow him him to cast a spell normally taking one round to cast as a free action, so no AoO allowed, just a Concentration check. Of course, he'd have had to prepare it as one level higher in advance, but knowing Nale he would be certain to prepare for something unexpected...like being discovered. He may even have prepared it to use on Haley, and now Belkar has tipped his hand.

[LurkerBeneath]

All right! So, Belkar finally made his Scents Motive check!

*runs away from pun police*

*runs away from fwiffo, groaning loudly*
-LB

[Khantalas]

Perhaps Nale has Quicken Spell? That would allow him him to cast a spell normally taking one round to cast as a free action, so no AoO allowed, just a Concentration check. Of course, he'd have had to prepare it as one level higher in advance, but knowing Nale he would be certain to prepare for something unexpected...like being discovered. He may even have prepared it to use on Haley, and now Belkar has tipped his hand.

Nale has sorcerer levels. He'd have to have Arcane Preparation to prepare spells. And why'd he waste a feat that only involves spells when he could use it on combat feats?

[LurkerBeneath]

This might be how Belkar dies...
He hurts a party member. Mark of Justice kills him.
I think the MoJ only incapacitates him.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html
-LB

[hewhosaysfish]

Nale has sorcerer levels. He'd have to have Arcane Preparation to prepare spells. And why'd he waste a feat that only involves spells when he could use it on combat feats?

We've never seen Nale with a familiar so he could be that variant sorceror from PHBII.


EDIT Is it PHBII?

[baltor85]

Great comic, plot advancing AND funny! :D Love the Bond reference. Nale, you are totally evil. "Meet me in St. Louis"... I spit on your cruel actions.

[Murdlih]

Just for those that might say that Belkar would not attack a party member because of his Mark of Justice, I disagree. It has been shown before in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html that his MoJ is not always on top of his mind.

[belboz]

I think the MoJ only incapacitates him.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html
-LB

And by RAW (although the Giant sometimes ignores it for the plot or The Funny), a MoJ can't really kill someone. Unless they have a Con <7, I suppose (in which case you could reduce their Con to 0, killing them). But I don't get the impression that Belkar's a fragile flower anyway.

[LurkerBeneath]

Let's see...
Haley's prophecy will be fulfilled soon (not looking a gift horse in the mouth).
Roy's prophecy will be addressed soon (Xykon will show up).
Either:
Belkar's prophecy will be fulfilled soon (killing Roy G. or Bi V.? (Sorry.))
or:
Durkon's prophecy will be addressed soon (being killed by Belkar makes him "posthumous").
That leaves Elan and V. I don't see how their prophecies could enter the story now, but maybe Rich will surprise me.

-LB

[Mathgeek]

Just for those that might say that Belkar would not attack a party member because of his Mark of Justice, I disagree. It has been shown before in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html that his MoJ is not always on top of his mind.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that he was trying to bluff Yokyok into a fight so that he wouldn't have to run away. Elan just kinda ruined it for him...

[baerdith]

Go Nale! If he can cast charm person it mean he got how many levels in sorcerer?

Um, at least 1?

[baerdith]

And I have to wonder if this will have something to do with Belkar's question with the Oracle...:smalleek: But it's probably far too soon for that.

Didn't he ask the Oracle if he would GET to kill ......? If so here's his chance.

[Psychotic]

So...was I hoping too much when I initially thought Belkar was trying to avenge Elan?

Yeah, I think so.

[fractal]

Note to self: If ever playing in a campaign of the Giant's, work on my Will Save. Suggestion and Charm Person seem to practically function as Dominate, and it might help against Stunning Fist too.

[charik]

Didn't he ask the Oracle if he would GET to kill ......? If so here's his chance.

"Cause the death of", which is not the same thing as "kill".

[baerdith]

Perhaps Nale has Quicken Spell? That would allow him him to cast a spell normally taking one round to cast as a free action, so no AoO allowed, just a Concentration check. Of course, he'd have had to prepare it as one level higher in advance, but knowing Nale he would be certain to prepare for something unexpected...like being discovered. He may even have prepared it to use on Haley, and now Belkar has tipped his hand.

Sorceror....:smallbiggrin:

[teratorn]

What is this "St. Louis" he speaks of?

(No one said that yet, right? I have better things to do than read 6 pages of posts.)

That is not funny, it's pretty annoying even. You should look into those six pages, your answer is there.

Great strip. I do wish that Belkar will meet his doom, but I don't think it will happen. Pity. I wonder who will die.

Probably Vaarsuvius. That would fit with the Oracle predictions. V will have to wait since they need to bring back the wizard guy first. The rest of the OOTS goes with the wizard after Elan wihtout V, but in the meantime Elan has escaped with Thog, so they get involved on a quest while Miko and Xykon arrive in Azure city. Ok, I confess, I just want to see V team up with Miko against Xykon.

I guess the fight for Azure city will end this story arc (and book). So we still have something like 40-100 panels to go, assuming a size similar to previous arcs. That should cover all loose ends, but the thought that I might need to wait more than 30 weeks to know what happens...

[CelestialStick]

Not exactly sure how Belkar got the scent ability, is that a ranger or halfling thing? But the strip is funny enough to where i don't really care.

I had exactly the same reaction.:smallsmile:

[fractal]

Incidentally, for those who keep speculating on the Mark of Justice being removed by a Dispel Magic aimed at the Charm, it is true that regular Dispel Magic can't remove curses like Mark of Justice.

However, Greater Dispel Magic can remove anything that Remove Curse can remove. Therefore, it is still conceivable that Vaarsuvius or Durkon might eliminate the Mark by accident.

[CelestialStick]

Incidentally, for those who keep speculating on the Mark of Justice being removed by a Dispel Magic aimed at the Charm, it is true that regular Dispel Magic can't remove curses like Mark of Justice.

However, Greater Dispel Magic can remove anything that Remove Curse can remove. Therefore, it is still conceivable that Vaarsuvius or Durkon might eliminate the Mark by accident.

Oh, good call, Fractal! :smallsmile:

Why's that a spoiler anyway?

[Kish]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that he was trying to bluff Yokyok into a fight so that he wouldn't have to run away.

...which, since he would have collapsed the second he caused lethal damage to Yokyok, demonstrates that he'd forgotten the Mark of Justice. Unless you mean he was trying to bluff Yokyok out of a fight.

[fractal]

Oh, good call, Fractal! :smallsmile:

Why's that a spoiler anyway?
I thought we were supposed to hide ideas in case the Giant wanted to have them without being influenced. Maybe I'm wrong; I don't think that particular outcome is very likely anyway.

[Baru]

Belkar has a keen sence of smell that alludes back to when Roy donned the gender changing girdle.

My input.

Nale will probably play a very poor Elan during the date. He has already demonstrated that he has little acting ability. Haley has alot of ranks in sense motive, and even though she may tell her self to go along with it, I'd imagine there will be one fatal flaw in Nale's actions that throws him in the hot water.

Belkar will probably end up setting the MoJ off, or Roy might if he notices that Belkar is going nuts. Belkar might get crafty and set up a trap that does lethal damage to one of the order. He is pretty good at setting up traps, after all. The MoJ never said anything about him indirectly dealing damage.

Vaarsuvius is missing. Or, maybe V is invisable, watching the turn of events, as likely as not. Invis lasts 10 minutes/level, so is would probably last about 2 hours.

[Tobimaro]

Liked the comic. And I am anticipating the next installment, when the charmed Belkar tries to kill another party member just to get their stuff.

And having :belkar: sing the entire score to "Meet Me in St. Louis"? :nale: is really Evil, and he loves it too. :smallbiggrin:

I do wonder if Nale is going to stick with his "going all Bond villain" thing. That might trip him up just as much as Belkar would.

[Bilbo27]

Love it, I was 1/2 right anyhoo. I predicted Belkar knew it was Nale when he 1st saw him in Cliffport, but decided to be evil and play along with Nale. I thought Belkar would finally turn on Nale when going after the party, only after Belkar had some fun playing along with Nale. A bit disappointed in the way he did find out--Smell? I never put skill points in that one. Haha.
Now Belkar has 2 spells affecting him, the MoJ, and Charm. Which will take precedence? Will the Mark keep Belkar from harming anyone? But yet he tried to harm Nale! How could that be when he actually had to run away from a Kobold in the city? Contradictions in the plot? Who knows, but I am eagerly awaiting the next one.

[Helgraf]

Great stuff, Giant.

I wouldn't have thought that Belkar was the one to see through things.

As other people have pointed out, the Charm Person and the MoJ should make for a great clash.

Now that Belkar has any Will to clash, but still!

As long as we're going on theories ... maybe he got it wrong because he doesn't know the words but is trying to fake it (along with faking being charmed, swirly-eyes notwithstanding. Heck, a really good bluff would probably include the swirly-eyes effect, and bluff is CHA based, not WIS.)

[Helgraf]

I'm still wondering how the Charm Person can give Nale the ability to order Belkar to kill his friends. I mean, it changes Belkar's attitude towards Nale to friendly (not helpful though). What's Belkar's attitude towards the rest of the party? I just don't see a first level spell having the kind of power that makes you kill your party members.

Of course, thats how my DM plays it.

Also, if Belkar comes within the area of a Magic Circle or a Hallow/Unhallow the charm would be suppressed. Although I don't see him making a trip to the Holy Temple of Thor.

I think the obvious answer is that the rest of the OotS (aside from Elan) aren't really Belkar's friends, and I doubt he has a problem taking them out for incentive. Of course the Mark requires him to be ... creative.

[Master_Kindel]

Now Belkar has 2 spells affecting him, the MoJ, and Charm. Which will take precedence? Will the Mark keep Belkar from harming anyone? But yet he tried to harm Nale! How could that be when he actually had to run away from a Kobold in the city? Contradictions in the plot? Who knows, but I am eagerly awaiting the next one.

Actually, I don't think the mark keeps Belkar from killing, does it? I thought he just would die if he did kill. Maybe I'm wrong though...

[Demented]

"If the curse is activated, he'll get sicker and sicker until he'll be incapable of hurting anyone."
-Roy

[CelestialStick]

I thought we were supposed to hide ideas in case the Giant wanted to have them without being influenced. Maybe I'm wrong; I don't think that particular outcome is very likely anyway.

Yeah, I vaguely recall that, but people routinely post their predictions openly here.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

I just though of something. What if Haley can suddenly talk again once Nale stabs her? That would be a big engough suprise to shock her out of it.

[Fo Shizzle]

I always knew Belkar would find out first :smallbiggrin: I can't wait to see what happens when he runs into one of the other party members.


And quick thought on the strip stretching out to long. I doubt it would seem as long if we could read all of them right now instead of spending our time waiting for updates. :smallcool:

[CelestialStick]

I always knew Belkar would find out first :smallbiggrin:

Ok, I want all you folks who made this claim to attach a button taking us to the thread where you publicly predicted that Belkar would find out first. :smallbiggrin:

[Demented]

There were more mentions than just this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27747) alone, but it's a good example. 3rd or 4th page by now.

[Kish]

Ok, I want all you folks who made this claim to attach a button taking us to the thread where you publicly predicted that Belkar would find out first. :smallbiggrin:*edits a post made in 2005 to state that Belkar will find out that Nale is impersonating Elan first*

[ShadowBr]

"I love being evil" hee hee hee

[CelestialStick]

*edits a post made in 2005 to state that Belkar will find out that Nale is impersonating Elan first*

LOL! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

[K'tai]

Wait...didn't Nale say "Let's kill two PC's with one spell then" right before giving Belkar the orders? Wouldn't that imply that he knows about the MoJ? Or does the MoJ just incapacitate....

[Skyserpent]

Have her way with her?

[Kish]

Wait...didn't Nale say "Let's kill two PC's with one spell then" right before giving Belkar the orders? Wouldn't that imply that he knows about the MoJ?
No, it would imply that he expects the surviving Order members to react lethally to Belkar (as far as they can see) finally going over the line and actually killing one of them.

[CelestialStick]

No, it would imply that he expects the surviving Order members to react lethally to Belkar (as far as they can see) finally going over the line and actually killing one of them.

Sure, but did you say that in a post from 2005?! :smallwink:

[K'tai]

Sure, but did you say that in a post from 2005?! :smallwink:

lol:smallbiggrin:

[zapperchamp]

Technically, Nale could have added more numbers to the PC killings since he is hoping to kill them all, but then we may not have gotten the reference. Plus it justs rolls off the tongue with 2 PCs while 3 or 4 PCs falls, hard and painfully.

[charik]

Wait...didn't Nale say "Let's kill two PC's with one spell then" right before giving Belkar the orders? Wouldn't that imply that he knows about the MoJ? Or does the MoJ just incapacitate....

I'll assume English isn't your native tongue. "Kill two birds with one stone" is an expression meaning that you can get two chores done with one action. Nale has simply altered the phrasing slightly.

[Maerad of Pellinor]

Here's what I think will happen:
Miko will rush in just as Belkar is about to stab Roy, and will jump between Roy and Belkar to stop Belkar from killing him. Instead, Belkar will kill Miko, and his MoJ will kick in, rendering him useless so he can't continue to hunt down fellow OotS members under the effects of Charm Person. Of course, now Miko is dead, so Xykon will get into Azure City without anyone knowing. But he wanted them to know, so Belkar will foil his plan....