Epic VoP vs. WBL debate

[Invader]

This debate came up in this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285273 and in an attempt to keep from derailing that thread I'd like to discuss it here.

The point of contention is about whether epic VOP is better that regular WBL up to level 40 where you gain divine rank 0 as a capstone for the latter.

I maintain that its not because with your regular WBL you emulate all the bonuses you gain from VoP plus some and divine rank 0 at 40th level is generally not that powerful when compared to what you'd have to give up to get it not to mention you can get divine rank 0 earlier while keeping your WBL by other means.

Thoughts?

[Neo Tin Robo]

There was never any such contention on my part. You and others chose to see it that way for some reason. I was only answering a question.

[eggynack]

There was never any such contention on my part. You and others chose to see it that way for some reason. I was only answering a question.
No, you weren't. You claimed that epic VoP was powerful, and it is not. I can't even really see much on that whole list that's worth something like a belt of battle or five. Just tell me what you're really getting from this? It's just a bunch of numbers, while wealth by levels gets you abilities. Those abilities are useful, and these regular numerical improvements are not. It also seems pretty inadequate at providing those numerical improvements. By level 40, there are a ton of ways of getting infinite money. That's the actual cheese we're comparing this to here.

For an example of copying those numerical benefits, let's look at energy immunity. At level 40, which seems to be your comparison point, you get two types of energy immunity. However, slotless items of energy immunity from all five types of energy only costs 1,320,000 GP. That's only taking up about a 10th of your money at that level, and that's if you're not using genesis to make a plane out of gold to mine approximately infinite money. I could give other examples, but you're probably going to need to tell me what you want. Note, that he's getting all of that, but also a belt of battle. That's an ability that you functionally have no way of replicating.

Edit: I just found another one. Epic vow gets you a +3 deflection bonus to AC at level 40. As per the magic item compendium crafting rules, you can just toss a +5 deflection bonus to AC onto another item for 50,000 GP. For another one, that holy aura ability costs 576,000 GP on a slotless item. Note, that a lot of these slotless items can be condensed into slots on a final version. Also, epic spell casting leaves all of these things so far in the dust that it's epic vow of poverty isn't even worth talking about, let alone worth talking about extensively. The fact that a lot of the best spell craft boosters are from items is just rubbing it in.

[Neo Tin Robo]

No, you weren't. You claimed that epic VoP was powerful, and it is not. I can't even really see much on that whole list that's worth something like a belt of battle or five. Just tell me what you're really getting from this? It's just a bunch of numbers, while wealth by levels gets you abilities. Those abilities are useful, and these regular numerical improvements are not. It also seems pretty inadequate at providing those numerical improvements. By level 40, there are a ton of ways of getting infinite money. That's the actual cheese we're comparing this to here.

For an example of copying those numerical benefits, let's look at energy immunity. At level 40, which seems to be your comparison point, you get two types of energy immunity. However, slotless items of energy immunity from all five types of energy only costs 1,320,000 GP. That's only taking up about a 10th of your money at that level, and that's if you're not using genesis to make a plane out of gold to mine approximately infinite money. I could give other examples, but you're probably going to need to tell me what you want. Note, that he's getting all of that, but also a belt of battle. That's an ability that you functionally have no way of replicating.

Edit: I just found another one. Epic vow gets you a +3 deflection bonus to AC at level 40. As per the magic item compendium crafting rules, you can just toss a +5 deflection bonus to AC onto another item for 50,000 GP. For another one, that holy aura ability costs 576,000 GP on a slotless item. Note, that a lot of these slotless items can be condensed into slots on a final version. Also, epic spell casting leaves all of these things so far in the dust that it's epic vow of poverty isn't even worth talking about, let alone worth talking about extensively. The fact that a lot of the best spell craft boosters are from items is just rubbing it in.

Your reading comprehension is astounding.

I said epic vow was "silly." To me, a feat that says, "you are a literal god" is a bit silly, regardless of what level you happen to be at. Somehow in your eyes this becomes "Epic Vow trumps everything ever!"

You then make the claim that only a fraction of WBL can do all those things, which is patently untrue. Now you want to compare it to infinite money? Why? Obviously infinite money wins.

Perhaps you didn't realize that the epic version is a continuation of the nonepic feat, not a replacement? The total deflection bonus at 40 is not +3. It is +6, and continues to rise without limit, like all the other numerical bonuses. Don't forget the +5 inherent bonus to all ability scores either.

I'm also curious how you're pricing the bonus Epic feats gained every other level with your WBL.

And now you're comparing it to epic spellcasting. Again, why? Epic spellcasting is heinously broken, no one can deny, but it's irrelevant to the topic as well. If you're going to argue WBL, argue WBL. Technically there's no lower limit to spellcraft DCs anyway so all your epic spells could be free if your DM was lacking in good judgement to allow that to happen.

[eggynack]

The point, as it always was, is that there's really nothing that can be described as silly at level 40. That's just how it is. You're breaking the game a billion times over, and that's largely without items. You could have far more AC, even than that, and it still wouldn't be worth it. What wealth by level is good at isn't statistical bonuses. If that's all it were, regular vow of poverty would be perfectly fine. There's really not much on that list of stuff that compares to the actual things you get from a well apportioned wealth by level. I mentioned belt of battle, and that item is better than most of the abilities you're getting on that list. Unless I'm missing something, that list doesn't have a source of miss chance, so you're relying on high AC, when that's a woefully inadequate thing at high level. Hell, it's a woefully inadequate thing at 20th level, let alone 40th.

[Abaddona]

Miniature Handbook: Belt of Magnificence +6, now for only 200.000 gp you may get +6 enchacement bonus to all ability scores (and free Cola).
Ring of three wishes - 100.000 gp for three wishes, ten of them and you may get +5 inheritance bonus to all ability scores (sadly without Cola).

Oh, wait - i took leadership and have artificer cohort with artisan feats: make that one third the cost.

And as for AC - stone colossus has CR of 24 and 70 to hit - it means that you must have AC of 80 to be missed 50% percent of time - any suggestions how you would stack this?

[Neo Tin Robo]

I've actually played in two games past level 40. It may or may not surprise you that in one of these games I used the epic vow, and in the other I was an epic spellcaster. I know how broken things get, and in both games I had no trouble contributing and having fun.

Belt of Battle can be replicated and more by choosing a SLA. Granted that doesn't come until after level 40, but it's not like you're doomed without one.

There are indeed miss chances you can opt for. It actually does give you some options now and then.

And in the hopes of finally ending this "debate," let me repeat that I never asserted EVoP was the greatest thing ever. But it certainly is playable if you happen to like the idea.

[Invader]

And in the hopes of finally ending this "debate," let me repeat I never er asserted EVoP was the greatest thing ever. But it certainly is playable if you like the idea.

No one ever claimed that's what you said but very clearly in the other thread I said WBL was better than VoP and absolutely disagreed with me. There's no debating that we disagreed and that's the point of this post. The fact that you're arguing a different point is irrelevant now.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I skimmed through the Epic VoP post trying to find where in levels 21+ you finally got flight.

I did not see any.

Unless I just missed it, it sounds like Epic VoP is AT LEAST as much fail as normal VoP. There isn't even anything to get any form of teleportation, plane shifting, etherealness, etc... even w/ the epic version, is there?

[Neo Tin Robo]

I disagreed with your assertion that WBL could "replicate it 5 times over with more to spare." Because it can't if you'd actually bothered to look at it. You then implied that divine ranks grant nothing that WBL can't, which is again untrue. You dismissed the epic vow out of hand without looking into the facts of it. To top it off you make a topic saying I claimed it was superior to WBL which I never did.

Are we done yet?

@Stream, there are SLAs of your choosing later on. Or you could cast the spells yourself, depending on class. Eschew Materials helps. It's not ideal but it is in there somewhere at least.

[Abaddona]

Yeah, so this means that VoP is "good" for druids and sorceres cause - you know, as a wizard you need to have spellbook (or feats from Dragon Magazine, which is strongly DM dependant) and as a Cleric you need to have Holy Symbol - both of which you can't have with VoP (well, technically you may have tatoo spellbook - which has very limited place, or a holy symbol carved in your flesh which is kinda creepy, smells of mutiliating own body and so on). In other words - unless you are druid your spells list is kinda limited or - in case of mutiliated cleric - you look like some psycho.

[Invader]

Invaderk2

That's still completely awful compared to having magic items. In fact the epic version is worse when you consider what your WBL can buy you from levels 20-40.

Neo Tin Robo

But look at what you could potentially get here and here.

Clearly I said WBL was better and this is you disagreeing by trying to convince me otherwise.

And you can insult me and act like I didn't read it but I did and you can insult eggynack but it still doesn't chance that WBL is better that epic VOP.

At 43rd level and every 5 levels after that you can choose a generally weak ability. Lets look at Exalted evasion since miss chance was brought up.

Exalted Evasion (Su) – Any physical attack or individually targeted spell directed at the ascetic has a 20% miss chance. Area effects that include the ascetic have a similar chance to be ineffective. If an attack overcomes the miss chance, the ascetic still gets the benefit of a saving throw (if applicable).

So at 45th level I can get 20% miss chance!! That's pretty good except for the fact that I can get 20% miss chance from a smoking weapon for a grand total of a +1 enchantment. Lets not forget that at level 43 your WBL is almost 19 million gold.

[Flickerdart]

DR0 is pretty rubbish, unless you are then able to curate your following and rise in the ranks. Let's take a look.

HP: Max HP from HD. A nice bonus, sure, but it doesn't actually increase your effectiveness, just staying power.
Speed: Most people will get 60ft base land from this, which is pretty cool if you actually walked anywhere anymore. If your strategy at level 40 involves running up to your enemy, you won't do well.
AC: Depending on how you read it, you may or may not get CHA to AC from this, so it might actually be marginally useful in catching up AC-wise.
Attacks: No benefits from DR0 here.
Bypassing DR: You don't get this.
Always Maximize Roll: You don't get this.
Saving Throws: No benefits from DR0 here.
Checks: No benefits.
Synergy bonuses: Isn't this part of Epic rules already?
Immunities: Mind-affecting, negative energy stuff, and polymorphing. Not bad, but who uses these at this level? Everything's been immune for ages.
DR: DR 10/Epic isn't horribly useful at level 40.
Resistances: SR32 does nothing at this level, ER5 does nothing at this level.
SDAs: No benefits.
Domain Powers: No benefits.
SLAs: You need DR1 to get a portfolio, no benefits.
Immortality: Yeah ok.
Senses: No benefit.
Everything else also needs DR1.

So DR0 grants you more HP, a little bit more speed, possibly some AC, some immunities, and useless DR, SR, and ER. Everyone else gets 13.6 million GP.

[eggynack]

I disagreed with your assertion that WBL could "replicate it 5 times over with more to spare." Because it can't if you'd actually bothered to look at it. You then implied that divine ranks grant nothing that WBL can't, which is again untrue. You dismissed the epic vow out of hand without looking into the facts of it. To top it off you make a topic saying I claimed it was superior to WBL which I never did.

Are we done yet?

@Stream, there are SLAs of your choosing later on. Or you could cast the spells yourself, depending on class. Eschew Materials helps. It's not ideal but it is in there somewhere at least.
I don't know where you got that line about it being replicated by wealth by level five times over. I did a search, and I think that the only person who said that was you. The problem is much less that these abilities can be replicated by wealth, but that the abilities of wealth can't be replicated by the vow. I did look into the facts of it, and it seemed pretty generally mediocre. Moreover, taking home brewed stuff from a website doesn't even qualify as cheesy, because it doesn't qualify as anything at all. If you're not claiming that this is better than the money you can get at 40th, then what are you claiming? If it's not as good as money, then it's a feat that's actively detrimental to any character who takes it. That's the exact opposite of cheese in my book.

Edit: Ah. Invaderk said that I said that. That's weird. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that the WBL table is meaningless at high levels, because getting infinite money is trivial.

[Neo Tin Robo]

And you can insult me and act like I didn't read it but I did and you can insult eggynack but it still doesn't chance that WBL is better that epic VOP.

If you're seriously still missing the fact that I never said vop was better, then I honestly don't know what more to say to you.

But to claim it has zero value whatsoever is simply wrong.

Edit: It's a good thing I wasn't comparing it to infinite money then, huh?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, so this means that VoP is "good" for druids and sorceres cause - you know, as a wizard you need to have spellbook (or feats from Dragon Magazine, which is strongly DM dependant) and as a Cleric you need to have Holy Symbol - both of which you can't have with VoP (well, technically you may have tatoo spellbook - which has very limited place, or a holy symbol carved in your flesh which is kinda creepy, smells of mutiliating own body and so on). In other words - unless you are druid your spells list is kinda limited or - in case of mutiliated cleric - you look like some psycho.

I would never take VoP into an epic game with a Druid, the spell list just does not make up for things enough. No real means of plane shifting or going ethereal; very limited teleportation options; little to nothing to combat or shut down enemy casters like AMF, dimensional anchor/lock, etc...; even flight can be an issue when it comes to getting magical, non-winged flight (winged can be tripped and BAD THINGS can happen if you get stunned or something while flying with wings), you get...Master Air, and...that's it I think.

Much rather have magic items to fill in the gaping holes in my spell list at that point.

[Abaddona]

Well - yes, it has value - as great roleplay device (but commoner hunting dragons and pretty much everything else also has such roleplaying potential) or in games where magic is rare or gold is rare (my actual DM pretty much homebrewed world where +2 weapon is worth entire towns and at the same time aquired wealth is less than one third of WBL). So yes - VoP has value but solely as roleplaying device and in low magic low optimization settings (and again only for certain classes - for example druid).
But in standard setting and from optimization point of view VoP is only effective mean to cripple own character (or if you want to retrain additional feats gained from VoP - it's also effective mean to get books thrown and you).

[eggynack]

If you're seriously still missing the fact that I never said vop was better, then I honestly don't know what more to say to you.

But to claim it has zero value whatsoever is simply wrong.

Edit: It's a good thing I wasn't comparing it to infinite money then, huh?
Maybe it's just me, but for me, when you call something a "munchkin's dream" there's an implication that it's a good choice. In my opinion, a dream is a positive experience, and munchkins like doing things that are overpowered. I think that when a feat has the cost of losing access to items, then that feat has to provide benefits greater than those of items if they want to be considered the domain of munchkins and lovers of cheese alike. But, maybe that's just me.

[Invader]

If you're seriously still missing the fact that I never said vop was better, then I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to say to you.

But to claim it has zero value whatsoever is simply wrong.

Edit: It's a good thing I wasn't comparing it to infinite money then, huh?

I pointed out where I said WBL was better and you disagreed. I'd like you to point out where I ever said that vop had zero value though because I never said anything of the sort.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the infinite money thing either. No one ever said infinite wealth was better than VoP. Eggynack simply said at 40th level obtaining infinite wealth was a small matter if you chose to.

The simple fact of the matter is that WBL is better than epic vop and you haven't produced one argument to the contrary.

[GreenSerpent]

*coughs* Just to drop this in, but I'm in a level 60 gestalt game and have decided not to go anywhere near EVoP because I can replicate everything it does and more with my WBL.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Maybe it's just me, but for me, when you call something a "munchkin's dream" there's an implication that it's a good choice. In my opinion, a dream is a positive experience, and munchkins like doing things that are overpowered.

Nightmares are a sub-category of dreams. :smallcool:

[eggynack]

Nightmares are a sub-category of dreams. :smallcool:
Yes, however the term "Blank's dream", when being used to refer to an object or intangible of some kind, colloquially always refers to dreams of the positive variety. Additionally, there's some evidence to support the idea of dreams and nightmares as being separate things. For example, the sentence, "The epic level character with VoP's dream had become a nightmare," wouldn't really work if dreams weren't assumed to be positive unless stated otherwise. Your claim does have some validity though, especially because the whole bit works best if the opinions I hold are just facts.

[Coidzor]

If you're seriously still missing the fact that I never said vop was better, then I honestly don't know what more to say to you.

But to claim it has zero value whatsoever is simply wrong.

Edit: It's a good thing I wasn't comparing it to infinite money then, huh?

It has worse than zero value relative to WBL. It has negative value as it actively hurts the character that takes it. Sure, it actually does something, so it's better than nothing, but that isn't a good point of comparison and never really at issue or necessary to discuss.

Once you're in Epic there are a few more wealth loops and tricks, but nothing that doesn't require some time and investment, true.

[eggynack]

Once you're in Epic there are a few more wealth loops and tricks, but nothing that doesn't require some time and investment, true.
Well, it doesn't require too much time if your genesis plane, filled with valuable materials, that has constructs digging out from a hole in the center, has a fast time trait. It takes a bit of investment, but that's rather trivial.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

I would never take VoP into an epic game with a Druid, the spell list just does not make up for things enough. No real means of plane shifting or going ethereal; very limited teleportation options; little to nothing to combat or shut down enemy casters like AMF, dimensional anchor/lock, etc...; even flight can be an issue when it comes to getting magical, non-winged flight (winged can be tripped and BAD THINGS can happen if you get stunned or something while flying with wings), you get...Master Air, and...that's it I think.

Much rather have magic items to fill in the gaping holes in my spell list at that point.

I agree with most of this, but you can get other means of flight. Air Walk, Wind Walk, Passage of the Shifting Sands, and of course:
WILD SHAPING.
That, and Shapechanging to get the other powers. And dragon wild shape.

[eggynack]

You can become a huge air elemental at level 20. Those guys have 100 ft flight speed (good), and it's not reliant on wings. It's actually a pretty good option, after dire tortoise. You get +13 initiative and 21 AC, just at the base of it. Those are pretty nice defensive stats to put stuff on.

[Abaddona]

StreamOfTheSky - well by "good" I meant that VoP on druid doesn't suck so much as VoP on anything else (for example Paladin).

[TypoNinja]

StreamOfTheSky - well by "good" I meant that VoP on druid doesn't suck so much as VoP on anything else (for example Paladin).

That's a case of Druid being awesome, not the Vow.

[Neo Tin Robo]

{scrubbed}

[Zerter]

To summarize this thread. Person A says something. Person B decides to make a big deal out of it by taking it out of context. Person A points this out. Person B simply decides that's not the case and that he's having an actual discussion.

[Invader]

{scrubbed}

[Invader]

To summarize this thread. Person A says something. Person B decides to make a big deal out of it by taking it out of context. Person A points this out. Person B simply decides that's not the case and that he's having an actual discussion.

Ooh ooh, which one am I? :smalltongue:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is more flaming than content. Thread locked.