The Ironic Failings of the Gates

[ZarDaranth]

So, I just noticed the pattern of gates falling, and it just came to me; the "best way to defend" that each gate-holder had was breached almost ironically:

Lirian's Gate: An unnatural being defeated the power of nature (Xykon).

Dorukan's Gate: An epic spellcaster defeats the mighty epic spellcaster with mastery of a single spell (Xykon again).

Soon's Gate: A fallen paladin destroys an epic defense held together by honorable paladin spirits (Miko).

Girard's Gate: The power of family keeping up illusions is defeated by someone wanting to protect family at all costs (Familicide).

With each of the gates that had their defenses breached being done so almost ironically, how do you think that Kraagor's Gate's defenses are going to be broken?

[TheMac04]

The Monster in the Darkness. Kraagor's gate is defended by the most powerful monsters imaginable. The MitD IS the most powerful monster we've seen.

[Gift Jeraff]

No, the power of family was bested by a villain targeting their victim's family out of spite.

[TheMac04]

[scrubbed]

[sam79]

It would be more ironic for the defences of Kragor's Gate to be defeated by someone physically weak.

But I'm with theMac in thinking that the MitD has a big role to play there too.

[King of Nowhere]

So, I just noticed the pattern of gates falling, and it just came to me; the "best way to defend" that each gate-holder had was breached almost ironically:

Lirian's Gate: An unnatural being defeated the power of nature (Xykon). A natural force (fire) caused the destruction of the gate

Dorukan's Gate: An epic spellcaster defeats the mighty epic spellcaster with mastery of a single spell (Xykon again).

Soon's Gate: A fallen paladin destroys an epic defense held together by honorable paladin spirits (Miko).

Girard's Gate: The power of family keeping up illusions is defeated by someone wanting to protect family at all costs (Familicide).

With each of the gates that had their defenses breached being done so almost ironically, how do you think that Kraagor's Gate's defenses are going to be broken?

Fixed for you

[Sir_Leorik]

So, I just noticed the pattern of gates falling, and it just came to me; the "best way to defend" that each gate-holder had was breached almost ironically:

Lirian's Gate: An unnatural being defeated the power of nature (Xykon).

Dorukan's Gate: An epic spellcaster defeats the mighty epic spellcaster with mastery of a single spell (Xykon again).

Soon's Gate: A fallen paladin destroys an epic defense held together by honorable paladin spirits (Miko).

Girard's Gate: The power of family keeping up illusions is defeated by someone wanting to protect family at all costs (Familicide).

With each of the gates that had their defenses breached being done so almost ironically, how do you think that Kraagor's Gate's defenses are going to be broken?

You're partially correct. Each of the members of the Order of the Scribble had a different view of how best to guard the Gates, and were coming to blows over them (Kraagor's death wasn't helping). Serini's suggestion that they split up and each guard one Gate was the only thing keeping Dorukan and Girard from trying to kill Soon. But you're confusing the defeat of a Gate's guardian with the ironic cause of each Gate's destruction.

Lirian guarded her glade with natural defenses: druidic magic, Werebears, dire wolves, Fey, Unicorns, Treants and the Guardian Virus. She assumed that even if a powerful spellcaster could kill her defenders, the Guardian Virus would strip them of their spellcasting abilities so she could imprison them. But she did not have any clerics assisting her in the defense of her Glade, nor did she consider the possibility that a lich or a vampire (or an Evil Outsider like a Devil or Demon) might threaten the Glade. As a result, once Xykon became a lich he killed her with ease.

But the destruction of Lirian's Gate was caused by a forest fire. Yes the fire as started by Redcloak's Flame Strike spell, but it could also have been caused by Alchemist's Fire or a torch.

Once the Treants were set on fire they panicked and tried to flee, destroying the Gate.

Likewise Dorukan was killed by Xykon, a sorcerer whom he looked down upon.

That is ironic, but the destruction of Dorukan's Gate was because Elan pushed the self-destruct rune. The irony there is that Dorukan, a highly intelligent wizard, did not take into account the possibility of a simple minded adventurer destroying his dungeon and castle by pressing the rune. Dorukan took everything else into account: he warded the Gate with sigils, he researched Cloister to keep enemies from locating the Dungeon, scrying the location of the Gate and Teleporting into the Gate room, he crafted the Talisman and hired guardians to keep it and the outdated monsters safe and he worked together with powerful clerics and with Celestials. All of that couldn't keep Elan from blowing up his castle.

Soon died of natural causes, but he prepared to become a Ghost Martyr before he died and for all the rest of the Sapphire Guard to become Ghost Martyrs as well. He organized the Sapphire Guard around honor and duty, but he was undone by two betrayals: Lord Shojo's violation of Soon's Oath and Miko Miyazaki's betrayal of the Paladin Code. And those two betrayals resulted in Miko being stripped of her Paladin powers, imprisoned, escaping her cell during the battle for Azure City and deciding to destroy the Gate on her own initiative. Soon's trust in the honor of Paladins wasn't misplaced, he just needed to have a secondary system in place to make sure loose cannons like Miko weren't inducted into the Sapphire Guard and a series of checks and balances to make sure nobles like Lord Shojo were obeying Soon's Oath. Its tragic, but not really ironic.

In terms of Girard Draketooth, he was a paranoid nutjob who only trusted his family. He certainly didn't trust government authorities. While that made sense in the Western Continent, he applied it to all governments equally. Remember that Lirian was allied with the local Elven militias and Dorukan was on friendly terms with clerics and Celestials. Girard only trusted blood relatives, and proceeded to get more of them to guard his pyramid and the Gate. I doubt he could have foreseen an epic spell like Familicide, so I'm willing to cut him some slack there, but the Draketooths worked with no one they were not related to. Even Ian Starshine worked with other rogues and thieves; he may not have trusted them enough to tell them all his secrets, but he learned the hard way he needed someone to help him out. (See the scenes between Ian and Uncle Jeff and Roy in Tarquin's slave pens, where Ian recruits Roy because he can see how competent a Fighter Roy is and he needs help. Girard would have ignored Roy because he wasn't a Draketooth.)

What I think we are meant to take away from all of this (i.e. the author's point) is that the Order of the Scribble made a huge mistake in splitting up to guard the Gates separately. Imagine for a moment if Lirian's Glade had a band of Sapphire Guard Paladins stationed there to deal with undead, or if members of the Draketooth family were appointed special councilors to the court of Azure City for the sole purpose of keeping the Sapphire Guard apprised of treachery. What if Dorukan's response to Xykon showing up had been to call for the Draketooths and the Sapphire Guard to back him up? We can only imagine, because the petty rivalries within the group became bitter acrimony when Kraagor died fighting the Snarl and the group couldn't agree on how to guard the Gates together. Serini's compromise was the only way they could part amicably (or as close to amicably as possible) but that gave Redcloak and Xykon an opening to exploit, gave Elan an opportunity to be Elan, left Miko to her own devices and caused a vacuum when V cast Familicide. The lesson is plain, and I wonder if Roy and the OotS are going to avoid the Order of the Scribble's mistakes before its too late. :smalleek:

[Rakoa]

Sir Leorik. That was very well put.

[Sir_Leorik]

Sir Leorik. That was very well put.

Thanks! :smallredface:

There's definitely a certain amount of irony in how the Order of the Scribble were defeated and had their Gate destroyed, but the ultimate irony (and hopefully the lesson Roy will take away from them) is that they were stronger together than they were on their own. As upset as Roy may be over Durkon's death, he needs to stop lashing out at Elan, Haley and even Belkar, and he needs to avoid wallowing in self-pity. They have a job to do, and they need to do it together!

[nogall]

Very well put indeed, sir Leorik. And it also keeps with the very theme of the Snarl regarding fighting, hatred and the unmaking of the worlds - in this case, the "world" they had built as adventurers / friends or, to cautiously use the D&D metaphor, the world you build when playing with friends.

[Dr.Epic]

Dorukan's Gate: An epic spellcaster defeats the mighty epic spellcaster with mastery of a single spell (Xykon again).

No, it was destroyed by an idiot who pressed a self-destruct button.


Girard's Gate: The power of family keeping up illusions is defeated by someone wanting to protect family at all costs (Familicide).

Except it's still intact so we can't make any statements about it's destruction yet.


The Monster in the Darkness. Kraagor's gate is defended by the most powerful monsters imaginable. The MitD IS the most powerful monster we've seen.

So he's Mr. Popo?

[Sir_Leorik]

Very well put indeed, sir Leorik. And it also keeps with the very theme of the Snarl regarding fighting, hatred and the unmaking of the worlds - in this case, the "world" they had built as adventurers / friends or, to cautiously use the D&D metaphor, the world you build when playing with friends.

I've noticed a number of recurring themes in "OotS" over the years, some of them deliberately pointed out by Rich Burlew in commentary in the books, others from rereading the strips. These theme include family conflict (Roy vs. Eugene, Haley vs. Ian, Elan vs. Nale, Elan vs. Tarquin, V vs. Kyrie, Hinjo vs. Lord Shojo, etc.), prophecy and fate vs. free will (the Oracle's prophecies, the cleric of Odin's prophecy about Durkon, O-chul trying to convince the MitD to reject Team Evil), discrimination (the Goblins' role as XP fodder, Therkla's Half-Orc status), what it really means to play a paladin (Miko vs. O-Chul and Hinjo), and an exploration of what makes a good villain ("good" meaning well written, as opposed to of Good alignment).

As I said, I see the Order of the Scribble as a warning to Roy and the others: don't make the same mistakes they did. They were epic heroes, but they were not infallible. The mistakes they made cost them their friendships, and that led to the undoing of almost everything they worked for: Lirian's Glade was burnt to the ground, Dorukan's Dungeon is a smoking ruin, the Sapphire Guard is down to three living members, and the Draketooth family was murdered as they sat down to breakfast.

The only consolation any of them have is that Lirian and Dorukan's souls get to spend eternity together in a gem. Soon Kim will never see his wife again because the Snarl unmade her and Girard will have no descendants able to seek vengeance on Varsuuvius. (He seems like the sort of guy who'd be interested in that.)

Maybe the time spent in Girard's phantasm will lead Roy to better appreciate his relationship to Elan and Haley and strengthen the party's bonds at what is otherwise surely their darkest hour. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Darkest_hour)

[Sir_Leorik]

Except it's still intact so we can't make any statements about it's destruction yet.

Girard's Gate has been standing unguarded for weeks because V's casting of familicide killed every member of the Draketooth family. In his paranoia, Girard Draketooth did not recruit anyone not related to him by blood to help protect the Gate. So in an ironic twist, the very means he hoped to protect the Gate (a family of sorcerers related to him by blood) has left the Gate vulnerable.

[Shadowknight12]

and a series of checks and balances to make sure nobles like Lord Shojo were obeying Soon's Oath. Its tragic, but not really ironic.

It's ironic if you consider Soon's Oath to be a flaw (as I do), not a virtue, as it means he was undone by his own ideals, just like all the others. Lyrian trusted the power of nature, Dorukan trusted the power of arcane magic, Soon trusted the honour of a paladin and Girard trusted the power of family and misdirection. We also know Kraagor trusted might above all else, and that will be the gate's undoing, too.

The lesson we're to take away from all this, I think, is that hubris will be your undoing. If you think you know THE answer to keep the world safe, you are doomed to fail, because there is no one true solution that works for every case.

[theMycon]

You're right, but wildly overthinking it. They've all been *directly* defeated by their own security systems so far, no metaphors necessary.

Lirian's gate was broken by the treants she had set to guard it. They literally ripped it in half themselves.

Dorukan's gate had a "only good people can touch me" self-destruct mechanism installed. I'm not sure what the point of this was, other than to making sure the first chaotic good person to see the "do not touch" button destroyed it.

Soon's gate was guarded by an order of paladins and destroyed by a member of that very order.


Given that (And the screye-ball we say in the reported location of the gate), there must be at least one remaining member of Girard's family, surviving either by marriage or by death-ward. They'll break it rather than letting a lawful character take hold of it.

(On preview- Sir_Leorik else made these points, except in 7 full, well-reasoned paragraphs instead of 7 brief, flippant sentences.)

[BrotherMirtillo]

Hats off, Sir Leorik. I look away for ten minutes and you only go and differentiate between the humbling defeat of multiple Gates' keepers versus the self-destruction of multiple Gate security mechanisms.


Soon's trust in the honor of Paladins wasn't misplaced, he just needed to have a secondary system in place to make sure loose cannons like Miko weren't inducted into the Sapphire Guard and a series of checks and balances to make sure nobles like Lord Shojo were obeying Soon's Oath. Its tragic, but not really ironic.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. That depends on what characteristics of Miko caught the eyes of the Guard. If they inducted her for certain qualities, and those turned out to be the same qualities that sent her falling, busting out, and taking out the Gate, then that's irony. If not, then it wasn't. I can't answer because I don't know what she was like before she became a paladin, and I won't draw on supposition for this.

I don't consider the deaths of Dorukan or Lirian to be ironic because I always figured irony implied an element of active self-defeat, and Xykon wasn't using their plans against them. He would have had a similar approach no matter what their plans had been. He crushed a proud wizard and a hippie chick with all the custom-tailored karma of an NPC redshirt -- fire, lightning, necromancy, wham, bam, thank you ma'am. Granted, his speeches to them were customized, but their defeats were not.

I could discuss their Gates, but honestly, it was a long time ago, and I got such a slim look at them that I don't feel right by reading into them too far. I'll chalk it up to black humor for wood to be destroyed by fire and a magical construct of epic intelligence to be destroyed by an (at the time) utter goofball of a bard.

I'm more interested in Girard's Gate, set in a place where I weep for the loss of being able to see it when it was up and running properly. His pyramid and Dorukan's dungeon could have gotten some seriously complex barriers, but it's too bad that they were all disabled when the Order got there. I agree with Sir Leorik about understanding that Girard couldn't have anticipated Familicide. I may not like or empathize with his insistence on family, but no one deserves that or should have to deal with that.

The phantasm is another matter. There was another thread about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285051), and someone wondered if Girard's insistent value for family caused him to highlight family in his illusions. I think folks replied that family was just one topic among many, although it's certainly one of the more noticeable elements in the happy endings presented. The really ironic kicker was that Girard having setups for healing any family conflicts that might be present, but this very healing chafed Elan's senses of balance. The thread included the fact that Girard might not have guessed that a good person would have such abhorrently evil family that such enticing resolution would immediately ring false.

Tl;dr -- OotScribble = maybe self-defeating, but definitely not all-knowing. Various Gate battles = finding the weak points and hitting them with hammers. Audience = :smallsmile:

[BrotherMirtillo]

Dorukan's gate had a "only good people can touch me" self-destruct mechanism installed. I'm not sure what the point of this was, other than to making sure the first chaotic good person to see the "do not touch" button destroyed it.

The point was to leave nothing for any evil conquerors to seize, as stated in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html.

Also, alignment doesn't enter into whether or not someone would have set off the rune. My understanding is that Chaotic means "self-willed," not "break it because I can." Whether or not people act like that second bit is another matter. That part's not their alignment; it's their personality. Look at Haley -- she's Chaotic Good, but she's also wary of danger, preferring to size up the situation before committing herself. Elsewhere, Elan is Chaotic Good, but he's also fond of adding flourishes and pizazz to life. Unfortunately, he still had much to learn about whether or not anyone else would be put off by the addition of mortal peril.

Now, if you wanted to argue that Dorukan shot himself in the foot by making the glyph big, bright, and shiny enough to invite short-sighted tempters of fate, then you'd have a case. Comic #118 got its name for a reason.


Given that (And the screye-ball we say in the reported location of the gate), there must be at least one remaining member of Girard's family, surviving either by marriage or by death-ward. They'll break it rather than letting a lawful character take hold of it.

I'm fairly sure that was Zz'dtri and the Guild, not a Draketooth. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html)

[veti]

If this theory is correct, what can we predict about Kraagor's gate?

I like the 'protected by might, penetrated by weakness' idea. But who do we know that is weak?

Certainly not anyone on Team Evil. Elan, possibly, but he's already had his turn. Belkar, possibly, if he's drained to low level, but it doesn't seem very plausible.

For a character to make their way through the "Dungeon of Unimaginably Ferocious Monsters With 50+ for Both AC and Spell Resistance", my nomination would be: Celia.

[Belkar<3]

How about this? Kraagor's Gate being breached by a 1st level commoner NPC.
:)

[Dr.Epic]

Girard's Gate has been standing unguarded for weeks because V's casting of familicide killed every member of the Draketooth family. In his paranoia, Girard Draketooth did not recruit anyone not related to him by blood to help protect the Gate. So in an ironic twist, the very means he hoped to protect the Gate (a family of sorcerers related to him by blood) has left the Gate vulnerable.

Except for, you know, the epic level illusions.

[rodneyAnonymous]

We also don't know what all the defenses of this gate are. They haven't failed yet. We don't even know if we've already seen the extent of the illusion trap, it may have other facets that haven't been revealed.

[Obscure Blade]

Girard was also about deception and manipulation, not just illusion. I have a suspicion that the innermost defense is either going to be something totally non-illusionary, to blindside someone prepared for another illusion; or, it'll be something that does something nasty if you pierce the illusion and see the reality underneath.

[Sir_Leorik]

(On preview- Sir_Leorik else made these points, except in 7 full, well-reasoned paragraphs instead of 7 brief, flippant sentences.)


Hats off, Sir Leorik. I look away for ten minutes and you only go and differentiate between the humbling defeat of multiple Gates' keepers versus the self-destruction of multiple Gate security mechanisms.

:elan: "I'm participating!"


Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. That depends on what characteristics of Miko caught the eyes of the Guard. If they inducted her for certain qualities, and those turned out to be the same qualities that sent her falling, busting out, and taking out the Gate, then that's irony. If not, then it wasn't. I can't answer because I don't know what she was like before she became a paladin, and I won't draw on supposition for this.

The bonus strips in book three War and XPs, gives a lot of background on how Miko views herself and why Lord Shojo chose her to become a member of the Sapphire Guard. In addition The Giant's commentary about Miko in books 2 and 3 build on the bonus strips. The picture is of someone with hubris and delusions of grandeur. She considered herself to have a special destiny, which made her better than the other paladins in the Sapphire Guard. The fact that her character level was higher than any of the others (including Hinjo and O-Chul) and that her abrasive personality led many of the other paladins to shun her, she ended up with a superiority complex regarding her role in in the grand scheme of life. She viewed Lord Shojo as having come for her for special reasons, to have groomed her for special duties and to have placed her in a position to mete out life and death.

When she and Hinjo overheard Shojo's admission that he casually broke Soon's Oath and was working with the OotS behind the Sapphire Guard's back, her entire worldview was shaken. Rather than question her views, she lashed out at Shojo, murdering a defenseless old man she had sworn to serve. The Southern Pantheon didn't appreciate that and stripped her of her powers. At that point Miko's entire worldview collapsed and she retreated into a fully delusional state of mind.

By contrast, O-Chul's defining character traits are perseverance, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) compassion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) and a sense of obligation and duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html). Those are the character traits that the Sapphire Guard should have been looking for, not for individuals who were good at kung fu. (O-Chul's full backstory hasn't been revealed yet, but one of the Kickstarter rewards is "How the Paladin Got His Scars" about O-Chul's promotion from soldier to member of the Sapphire Guard. Along with the "Dark Sun" parody and the magnets, the promise of O-Chul's story was a major incentive for me to pledge support last year in the Kickstarter drive.)


I don't consider the deaths of Dorukan or Lirian to be ironic because I always figured irony implied an element of active self-defeat, and Xykon wasn't using their plans against them. He would have had a similar approach no matter what their plans had been. He crushed a proud wizard and a hippie chick with all the custom-tailored karma of an NPC redshirt -- fire, lightning, necromancy, wham, bam, thank you ma'am. Granted, his speeches to them were customized, but their defeats were not.

I could discuss their Gates, but honestly, it was a long time ago, and I got such a slim look at them that I don't feel right by reading into them too far. I'll chalk it up to black humor for wood to be destroyed by fire and a magical construct of epic intelligence to be destroyed by an (at the time) utter goofball of a bard.

:xykon: Did you just compare Xykon to a bone golem? He's a lich! You know, Undead, powered by negative energy, touch paralyzes people permanently. Not a construct.

Lirian's reliance exclusively on Druids, Elves, Fey and magical woodland creatures to defend her Glade opened a few glaring weaknesses. The first was obviously Undead, but also Demons, Devils, Daemons, Slaadi, Unseelie Fey and Elementals; most of them would be immune to the Guardian Virus.

Second, Lirian's attempt to be merciful and not execute her prisoners, while laudable, was a major error for one reason: there was no one keeping an eye on Redcloak, Right-Eye and Xykon. She had a few options, such as summoning Xorn (a being native to the Elemental Plane of Earth) to check in on her prisoners every few days, or asking Dorukan to scry on her prisoners. Either way would reveal what Redcloak had been up to (and Dorukan might have realized what Redcloak was making and why and warned Lirian.) While the Order of the Scribble's deal was to part company, Lirian and Dorukan were um, shall we say intimate acquaintances. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) She was confident her druidic powers were enough to guard the Gate, and those powers completely failed to stop Xykon once he became a Lich.


Given that (And the screye-ball we say in the reported location of the gate), there must be at least one remaining member of Girard's family, surviving either by marriage or by death-ward. They'll break it rather than letting a lawful character take hold of it.

The scrying eyeball in the desert didn't come from Girard; it came from Zz'dtri. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14733248#post14733248)

[Lord Torath]

Just to clear things up for everyone, the Scrying Eye in the desert was Zz'dtri.

Yes, the scrying beacon was Zz'dtri, checking up on Elan at Nale's request. It was primarily a bit of foreshadowing that Zz'dtri was coming back, since at that point no one expected him to ever show up again. You'll note that Nale confirms that he's been keeping tabs on Elan right after Z reveals himself (both to V and the reader).Elan has been instrumental in breaching the defenses of two gates. He almost removed the sigils protecting Dorukon's gate, and did press the Self Destruct. And he was the one who broke out of Girard's master illusion. Evidently their plans were All But Foolproof. :smalltongue:

[Phantom Thief]

I like Sir Leorik's explanation. I think there are two ways each gate gets destroyed, 1. being how the intended defence of the gate is defeated, and the other how the gate itself is destroyed.

The defence of the gate is usually undermined by the antithesis of whatever the Order of the Scribble's defining character philosophy was, i.e.
-Unnatural monster vs druidic Lirian,
-Simpleminded brute force vs detailed planner Dorukan,
-Selfish ambition vs sacrifice for the greater good Soon(by this I mean Soon had intended for the whole of Azure city to defend the gate, with the Paladins guiding them. The aristocracy families refusing to fight so they could take over when Hinjo failed crippled Azure city's ability to defend itself),
-A self-absorbed demonstration of power vs. family is everything/trickery over power Girard(Yes V was protecting his/her family, but in retrospect admits s/he was reveling in omnipotence mostly)

Meanwhile, the gates themselves are destroyed by the thing the guardians take pride in backfiring on them,
-Lirian's undisciplined forrest creatures dropped her gate
-Dorukan's overkill sigil blew up his
-Soon's shortsighted paladin smashed his
-We don't know about Girard's yet

While the defense of Kraagor's gate will follow this, likely having a pacifist means of getting past its defences, but rather than having Kraagor's ideals backfire, it will be Serini's, since she actually built this gate. Serini seemed to value the friendship of her teammates immensely, her compromise was mostly aimed at trying to avoid a full out fight between her friends.

So how I think this will play out is this, Durkon will likely have a big part to play in overcoming Kraagor's gate, because he was always the most hesitant to go straight to a fight, and more importantly this combined with his vamp status will give him a long overdue character arc, since I think he's the only one as of yet to not have much of one. Probably he will be released from Malack's thrall and need to deal with trying to be good when he knows he is evil, trying to overcome his inflexible stubbornness which has never really been a huge problem for him before, trying to resist his vampiric predisposition towards violence.

Meanwhile, MITD will do a lot in plowing through the monsters from TE perspective, because the other monsters will know what he is and refuse to fight or something. The point is, he will follow his usual routine, being ready to finally step out of the light, only for something to stop the fight preemptively and deny him his chance. I don't know how Tarquin or the Linear guild will play into this.

Finally, there will come a fight at the gate, it will look like the collateral damage from the big showdown will break it, but no, nothing will happen. Roy will gain the upper hand, it will look like good has finally won...

Then the IFCC will step in. They will recall their deal, simultaneously revealing to OotS the depths of V's sin, and claim their few minutes of control. They will use this, along with a nice fireball, to destroy the gate, and presumably release the Snarl, fulfilling their plan and causing untold havoc, exactly what they claim to want. In the process, they will destroy all good aligned dragons and undermine the gods of good, like they promised to Tiamat.

Serini's quality of the power of friendship will break as the rest of the Order turns on Vaarsuvius(temporarily at least) and places the blame for the destruction of the omniverse on his/her shoulders, setting up the climax, wherein the team must regroup and put this aside in order to deal with the threat facing them and save the world(Whether or not the Snarl actually exists/actually is still a threat is irrelevant, it's the idea of the threat that is what causes the fight). This will also fulfill a reoccurring theme of a specific member of the Order undermining the gate by their character issue. Elan messed up the first gate by being foolish and not thinking ahead, Belkar messed up Miko worse than she already was by being a general sociopath, and if I had to guess, I'd predict Haley will somehow cause the final defense of Girard's to fail by being too in synch with his way of thinking and outsmarting his own traps somehow.

So yeah. That's my two sense. Cents? Scents. Whatever.


Edit:


Elan has been instrumental in breaching the defenses of two gates. He almost removed the sigils protecting Dorukon's gate, and did press the Self Destruct. And he was the one who broke out of Girard's master illusion. Evidently their plans were All But Foolproof. :smalltongue:

Yes, well, each gate was guarded by an epic level adventurer of huge renown.
I guess you could say going after the gates is somewhat of a...
:cool:
...fool's errand.
YEEEAAAAAAAAH!

[Sir_Leorik]

Then the IFCC will step in. They will recall their deal, simultaneously revealing to OotS the depths of V's sin, and claim their few minutes of control. They will use this, along with a nice fireball, to destroy the gate, and presumably release the Snarl, fulfilling their plan and causing untold havoc, exactly what they claim to want. In the process, they will destroy all good aligned dragons and undermine the gods of good, like they promised to Tiamat.

I think the IFCC will call in part of V's debt long before the OotS gets to Kraagor's Tomb. If V gets anywhere near Girard's Gate they will invoke the debt and either possess V's body directly (whichever Director is cashing in some time) or implant a demon/devil/daemon or damned soul to control V's body. While the IFCC is playing a long game, they've invested too many resources in getting the Linear Guild to Girard's Pyramid and on making sure V survives to get there too. The directors of the IFCC don't really care about V's sins, they only want V to serve as a means to control the Gate (and thus the Snarl), so they're not going to launch into a monologue about V's deal (after they have very limited time in which to control V's soul).

[Phantom Thief]

Oh yeah, they're not going to mess around explaining the whole thing. I just meant that their presence and possession of V will lead to the Order finding out about Familicide one way or the other. The main thing about them is that they were satisfied just having like 20 minutes of soul, so likely their intention with V is only going to take at most a few minutes, leaving plenty of buffer room to deal with unexpected complications. That's what leads me to thing they are just going to use their control for 1 swift decisive action, like blowing up a gate.

I agree that theres a good chance they will try to utilize either the Linear guild or V more directly with Girards gate, but I feel they won't need both, so they'll save one for Kraagors. I'm just making an assumption that the Linear guild will be used first because it will be more dramatic to use V later on, after he/she has had time to cope with his/her breakdown, only for it to open up again.

[Amphiox]

How's this for the ironic end for Girard's Gate:

There is one last epic level illusion left protecting the gate, and that illusion is of a fake gate in the supposed gate room, while the real gate is disguised as a piece of masonry on the wall.

There will be a major firefight in front of the gate between Team Evil, Team Tarquin, the Order, and whatever diverse others who might get involved.

During the fight, the gate gets blasted accidentally by someone who didn't see it because of the illusion.

Possible ironic breaching of Kraagor's Gate's defences:

Someone weak but skilled in negotiation (say Celia) somehow manages to negotiate the monsters defending the gate into surrendering.

Possible ironic destruction of Kraagor's Gate:

A powerful monster, perhaps the MitD, deliberately destroys it. (This assumes a twist ending that requires all five gates to be destroyed, ie for whatever reason everyone is mistaken about the need to keep at least one gate intact)

[Bulldog Psion]

Is "irony" a synonym for "weak point" now? :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Is "irony" a synonym for "weak point" now? :smallconfused:
No. It wouldn't be ironic if Dorukan's Gate was vulnerable to being pulled apart by treants, or to a forest fire, since Dorukan has no particular relationship to nature. It wouldn't be ironic if Soon's gate was immune to anything fallen paladins could do but was vulnerable to being blown up by a rune. And it wouldn't be particularly ironic if the weakness of Lirian's gate had been that a fallen paladin could smash it with a katana.

[Phantom Thief]

How's this for the ironic end for Girard's Gate:

There is one last epic level illusion left protecting the gate, and that illusion is of a fake gate in the supposed gate room, while the real gate is disguised as a piece of masonry on the wall.

There will be a major firefight in front of the gate between Team Evil, Team Tarquin, the Order, and whatever diverse others who might get involved.

During the fight, the gate gets blasted accidentally by someone who didn't see it because of the illusion.

Possible ironic breaching of Kraagor's Gate's defences:

Someone weak but skilled in negotiation (say Celia) somehow manages to negotiate the monsters defending the gate into surrendering.

Possible ironic destruction of Kraagor's Gate:

A powerful monster, perhaps the MitD, deliberately destroys it. (This assumes a twist ending that requires all five gates to be destroyed, ie for whatever reason everyone is mistaken about the need to keep at least one gate intact)

Nice one! I hadn't thought of Celia at all, but she would be a much better candidate for undermining Kraagor's gate. Though I doubt it will be as straightforward as negotiating, I mean thats probably the first thing you plan for when building a giant deathmatch. It also would make sense for Girard's illusions to actually trick the characters into smashing the gate intentionally.

[Amphiox]

No. It wouldn't be ironic if Dorukan's Gate was vulnerable to being pulled apart by treants, or to a forest fire, since Dorukan has no particular relationship to nature. It wouldn't be ironic if Soon's gate was immune to anything fallen paladins could do but was vulnerable to being blown up by a rune. And it wouldn't be particularly ironic if the weakness of Lirian's gate had been that a fallen paladin could smash it with a katana.

The biggest irony of all is that each of the weaknesses of each of the gates and their guardian could have been foreseen and averted by a resource that said guardian should have had ready access to - ie the powers and opinions of their fellow party-members.

Soon could have defended Lirian from undead. Girard could have advised Durokan against underestimating sorcerors (since Girard was a sorceror himself). Any of the other Scribblers could have likely predicted the possibility of a fallen Paladin screwing up Soon's plans. The powers of three arcane spellcasters would surely have bolstered whatever weaknesses inherent in the strength-focused defences of Kraagor's gate.

The Scribblers failed because they could not stay together.

[EmperorSarda]

Soon could have defended Lirian from undead.

Not as a gate guardian/positive energy spirit!


Girard could have advised Durokan against underestimating sorcerors (since Girard was a sorceror himself).
Or preparing any protection from negative energy/deathward type spell.

[Sir_Leorik]

The biggest irony of all is that each of the weaknesses of each of the gates and their guardian could have been foreseen and averted by a resource that said guardian should have had ready access to - ie the powers and opinions of their fellow party-members...The Scribblers failed because they could not stay together.

Exactly. Had Lirian been able to call on the Sapphire Guard founded by Soon, she would have had access to clerics and paladins able to recognize what Xykon was and how to fight him. Had Soon and Girard's friendship not been sundered, Girard could have turned his distrust of authority into an asset for Soon and the Sapphire Guard, the same way Haley did during the Battle for Azure City. If Girard was not completely paranoid his heirs would have been responded to the destruction of Lirian and Dorukan's Gates, the same way Lord Shojo sent paladins to investigate, and Shojo and the Draketooths could have pooled their resources.

Not to mention the benefits that cooperation from the very beginning would have provided: paladins, druids, rangers, Fey, sorcerers skilled in illusion magic all coordinated by an Epic level Druid and Wizard, distributed equally at Lirian's Glade, the Dungeon of Dorukan, Azure City and the Windy Valley (plus lots of monsters guarding Kraagor's Tomb being overseen by this same group). But the Order of the Scribble couldn't work together after Kraagor's death and went their separate ways. That's the ultimate dramatic irony: united they would have stood, divided the Gates are being destroyed.

[Onyavar]

Yet, so far I'd like to credit Girard as he had devised the best/most impressive security system so far.

Each Gate had weak points, but Girards were very small: A traitor in the family could have brought it down, and I'm sure the Draketooths were constantly worried about this. But how could they have calculated with an unbalanced spell like familicide? Had not the Familicide happened, the Draketooths would have an easy standing against all intruders. Sadly, they would have wiped the floor with the OotS first, then with the LG, and maybe failed against Xykon. But who knows, it's spilt milk.

Soon had the second-best security measures, with the Ghost Martyr Guard, the Paladin order (where also other classes were appently allowed, like Paladin-clerics, Paladin-fighters and Paladin-mages) and a fortified city. Xykon broke the defenses with brute force and would have perished if not for Miko. Without any attack of evil forces, I could imagine that Hinjo might have failed as Shojos successor a few decades down the road, and a Kubota-like dynasty might have neglected the Gate defenses.

Lirians protection was the third-best, I think. SoD spoiler material, so I won't elaborate. She also had her helpers that protected the gate alongside her. Still, there were many weaknesses - undead, fire and certainly a few others that didn't play in at the defeat.

Dorukan however? A fool, for thinking he was immortal and not having a reliable backup for himself. He filled his huge fortress with potential hazards to the gate (2nd edition monster pool; elemental dungeons, the dangerous tunnels where the goblin kids played, etc.) He had the cloister, okay. He had the epic force shield, okay. He could have pooled all his resources against invaders, granted. But once he was dead, ALL his defenses were undone, his resources scattered or were used by the evil forces, and his self destruct rune was easy prey for Elan.

Now, what do I expect of Kraagors Gate? Either the best one - a commune of monsters with class-levels and dedicated to defend themselves and the gate (but still having weaknesses). Or the very worst one, an empty dungeon defended by some long-dead skeletons.

[sengmeng]

Dorukan's defense were, in my opinion, the best overall, but woefully mismanaged. Just like Vaarsuvius lost to Xykon when he/she should have been the most powerful mortal spellcaster to ever exist because Xykon proved to be the superior tactician, Dorukan didn't have the tactical sense to cast Bigby's Crushing Hand and push Xykon into the 'splodey runes.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yet, so far I'd like to credit Girard as he had devised the best/most impressive security system so far.

Each Gate had weak points, but Girards were very small: A traitor in the family could have brought it down, and I'm sure the Draketooths were constantly worried about this. But how could they have calculated with an unbalanced spell like familicide? Had not the Familicide happened, the Draketooths would have an easy standing against all intruders. Sadly, they would have wiped the floor with the OotS first, then with the LG, and maybe failed against Xykon. But who knows, it's spilt milk.

I agree. While Girard's paranoia hurt the other members of the OotScribble, he benefited from it. There was no way that Girard or the other Draketooths could have known a) that the familicide spell existed (it was a unique spell crafted by Huerta) and that b) V would cast it on the Ancient Black Dragon who was their distant relative. Girard was expecting Soon to send the Sapphire Guard to seize the Gate, or for one of the local warlords on the Western Continent to try something. He had no way to plan for this eventuality; however the fact that every single member of his organization was family was a fatal flaw. A particularly contagious disease could have wiped out most of their group, and they would not be able to replace them for years because they only trusted family.


Soon had the second-best security measures, with the Ghost Martyr Guard, the Paladin order (where also other classes were appently allowed, like Paladin-clerics, Paladin-fighters and Paladin-mages) and a fortified city. Xykon broke the defenses with brute force and would have perished if not for Miko. Without any attack of evil forces, I could imagine that Hinjo might have failed as Shojos successor a few decades down the road, and a Kubota-like dynasty might have neglected the Gate defenses.

Soon's major flaw was that who assumed everyone who joined the Sapphire Guard would be as honorable as he was. For the most part they were, but Lord Shojo, commander of the Sapphire Guard, was a Chaotic Good aristocrat who viewed laws as burdens to be sidestepped, especially if the lives of the citizens of Azure City were at stake. (And no citizen's life was more precious to Lord Shojo than his nephew's and his own.) Shojo's behind the scenes dealing backfired in two ways: the Sapphire Guard went off on crusades to fight the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, thus sending Redcloak on his quest for revenge; and Shojo's mismanagement of Miko Miyazaki's mental state led her to murder him and later destroy the Gate. Soon was certain that threats from Evil creatures and humans were more important, that he neglected to make sure the laws were obeyed by his successors.


Lirians protection was the third-best, I think. SoD spoiler material, so I won't elaborate. She also had her helpers that protected the gate alongside her. Still, there were many weaknesses - undead, fire and certainly a few others that didn't play in at the defeat.

I disagree. Lirian's Gate had severe weaknesses that she blissfully ignored in order to send love letters to Dorukan. Her Gate, held up by a pair of Treants, was destroyed by a forest fire. That's just sloppy.


Dorukan however? A fool, for thinking he was immortal and not having a reliable backup for himself. He filled his huge fortress with potential hazards to the gate (2nd edition monster pool; elemental dungeons, the dangerous tunnels where the goblin kids played, etc.) He had the cloister, okay. He had the epic force shield, okay. He could have pooled all his resources against invaders, granted. But once he was dead, ALL his defenses were undone, his resources scattered or were used by the evil forces, and his self destruct rune was easy prey for Elan.[quote]

[QUOTE=sengmeng;15316347]Dorukan's defense were, in my opinion, the best overall, but woefully mismanaged. Just like Vaarsuvius lost to Xykon when he/she should have been the most powerful mortal spellcaster to ever exist because Xykon proved to be the superior tactician, Dorukan didn't have the tactical sense to cast Bigby's Crushing Hand and push Xykon into the 'splodey runes.

Dorukan held off Xykon and Redcloak the longest of anyone so far. Team Evil was camped outside of Dorukan's Castle for six months, without being able to either penetrate the defenses or lure Dorukan outside. Dorukan only came out when Xykon revealed he had Zombie-Lirian and that Lirian's soul was trapped in a gem. Had Dorukan remained inside his castle, Xykon would have had to invade and face all of Dorukan's defenses. And he would an even more difficult time than the OotS, because Dorukan could have teleported in and out, guerrilla style, harassing the Goblins with spells, while they were slaughtered by traps. And the whole time, Right-Eye would be preparing to destroy Xykon. Dorukan's big mistake was leaving his castle to fight Xykon; he was blinded by love and died as a result.


Now, what do I expect of Kraagors Gate? Either the best one - a commune of monsters with class-levels and dedicated to defend themselves and the gate (but still having weaknesses). Or the very worst one, an empty dungeon defended by some long-dead skeletons.

Its probably full of wild monsters, with the strongest having long ago eaten the weaker ones and multiplied. I think it will be intended to make fun of the "illogical gilded hole" dungeons from the dawn of tabletop RPGs. Maybe Serini bought the "Random Monster Generator" from the Citadel Union fire sale. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Greyhawk_(module)) :smallbiggrin:

[EmperorSarda]

Shojo's behind the scenes dealing backfired in two ways: the Sapphire Guard went off on crusades to fight the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, thus sending Redcloak on his quest for revenge;
Except the Sapphire Guard have been doing their crusades since before Shojo.


and Shojo's mismanagement of Miko Miyazaki's mental state led her to murder him and later destroy the Gate. Soon was certain that threats from Evil creatures and humans were more important, that he neglected to make sure the laws were obeyed by his successors.
I don't think there was anyway to manage Miko's mental health, as it all tied around Shojo, since he took her from the monastery. Second of all, aside from keeping Belkar free, he didn't break any laws. Unless feigning insanity is against the law.


Dorukan held off Xykon and Redcloak the longest of anyone so far. Team Evil was camped outside of Dorukan's Castle for six months, without being able to either penetrate the defenses or lure Dorukan outside. Dorukan only came out when Xykon revealed he had Zombie-Lirian and that Lirian's soul was trapped in a gem. Had Dorukan remained inside his castle, Xykon would have had to invade and face all of Dorukan's defenses. And he would an even more difficult time than the OotS, because Dorukan could have teleported in and out, guerrilla style, harassing the Goblins with spells, while they were slaughtered by traps. And the whole time, Right-Eye would be preparing to destroy Xykon. Dorukan's big mistake was leaving his castle to fight Xykon; he was blinded by love and died as a result.

Keep in mind that Xykon and Redcloak weren't actively trying to break in. They were camped outside the dungeon, trying to lure Durokan out on the basis/assumption that Durokan and his dungeon were best prepared for an invasion. Once Durokan was out of the way, it was easy to take over. They actually never attacked before Durokan showed up. I would sau that Durokan's biggest mistake wasn't leaving, his biggest mistake wasn't having some form of protection from negative energy up.

[Sir_Leorik]

Except the Sapphire Guard have been doing their crusades since before Shojo.

In the commentary to Book 3, Rich Berlew says that the Sapphire Guard was being "rewarded" for their massacres of innocent goblins in their pursuit of evil ones like Redcloak's mentor. Shojo continued to send paladins on these crusades throughout the years he was commander of the Sapphire Guard.


I don't think there was anyway to manage Miko's mental health, as it all tied around Shojo, since he took her from the monastery.

Hinjo: "Let's just say there's a reason Miko gets picked for long missions. In foreign countries. Which keep her away from home for months at a time." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html)


Second of all, aside from keeping Belkar free, he didn't break any laws. Unless feigning insanity is against the law.

1) Shojo broke Soon's Oath to not interfere with guarding the other Gates when he hired the OotS.

2) He sent Miko into a foreign country to arrest the OotS on trumped up charges.

3) He then put the OotS on trial, but he secretly arranged to have the results rigged, all so that the Paladins wouldn't realize he was hiring them to violate Soon's Oath.

Shojo could have been charged with Treason (violating Soon's Oath), Obstruction of Justice (for the rigged trial) and False Imprisonment, not to mention the liability issues that Azure City could have incurred if Roy had decided to blow the whistle on Shojo and sue the Azurites for Assault, Battery, False Imprisonment and Lost Wages (from both the destruction of the Ancient Black Dragon's treasure and loot they could have earned adventuring while Miko was hauling them in chains to Azure City). I realize that Azure City isn't Cliffport, but the loss of face that Shojo would have had from the nobles would have been huge. (As in hiring ninjas to kill him, huge.)

[EmperorSarda]

In the commentary to Book 3, Rich Berlew says that the Sapphire Guard was being "rewarded" for their massacres of innocent goblins in their pursuit of evil ones like Redcloak's mentor. Shojo continued to send paladins on these crusades throughout the years he was commander of the Sapphire Guard.
Yeah, he continued them. I'm just saying he didn't start them.


Hinjo: "Let's just say there's a reason Miko gets picked for long missions. In foreign countries. Which keep her away from home for months at a time." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html)
So all the time on those foreign trips drove her crazy?


1) Shojo broke Soon's Oath to not interfere with guarding the other Gates when he hired the OotS.
Not against the Law. Only against the Paladin Code. As the Gate was only something the paladins knew about, magistrates would not have been involved.


2) He sent Miko into a foreign country to arrest the OotS on trumped up charges. Only questionable legal, but was not based on the laws of the city, but upon paladin workings.


3) He then put the OotS on trial, but he secretly arranged to have the results rigged, all so that the Paladins wouldn't realize he was hiring them to violate Soon's Oath. Ok, this is the only thing he did illegally, really. Holding mock trials to fool the paladins. I'm still not sure how the magistrates would have been involved as it would involve spreading knowledge of the gates.

[Sir_Leorik]

So all the time on those foreign trips drove her crazy?

Not exactly. She was sent off on her own, without other Paladins accompanying her, because she grated on the nerves of the entire Sapphire Guard. Most of them (like O-Chul) would not say anything, but others (especial from the noble class like Hinjo) may very well have complained. Rather than discipline her, Lord Shojo chose to send her on long distance errands where she would have no supervision, and being selected over and over by Lord Shojo for what she thought were plum assignments increased her delusions of grandeur. As a result there were no other paladins to reign her in during her trips, and when she returned she continued to belittle the other paladins. (Check out the bonus strips in Book 3 which show how isolated she was from the other paladins, mostly, but not entirely, due to her own behavior.) At the very least Shojo should have sent someone along with her on her trips.


Not against the Law. Only against the Paladin Code. As the Gate was only something the paladins knew about, magistrates would not have been involved.

Azure City has secret laws, which are on the books, but which the public is completely ignorant of. Soon's Oath is the most classified of these laws. Remember, Shojo wasn't a paladin, so he had no reason to follow the paladin's code, but he was a ruler of a Lawful Good city and was assumed to be upholding the laws. Since he knew about Soon's Oath as commander of the Sapphire Guard, he was expected to not only obey it but to make sure all of the other paladins did too.

[EmperorSarda]

Azure City has secret laws, which are on the books, but which the public is completely ignorant of. Soon's Oath is the most classified of these laws.

Citation please?

[David Argall]

I've noticed a number of recurring themes in "OotS" over the years, some of them deliberately pointed out by Rich Burlew in commentary in the books, others from rereading the strips. These theme include family conflict (Roy vs. Eugene, Haley vs. Ian, Elan vs. Nale, Elan vs. Tarquin, V vs. Kyrie, Hinjo vs. Lord Shojo, etc.), prophecy and fate vs. free will (the Oracle's prophecies, the cleric of Odin's prophecy about Durkon, O-chul trying to convince the MitD to reject Team Evil), discrimination (the Goblins' role as XP fodder, Therkla's Half-Orc status), what it really means to play a paladin (Miko vs. O-Chul and Hinjo), and an exploration of what makes a good villain ("good" meaning well written, as opposed to of Good alignment).

As I said, I see the Order of the Scribble as a warning to Roy and the others: don't make the same mistakes they did. They were epic heroes, but they were not infallible. The mistakes they made cost them their friendships, and that led to the undoing of almost everything they worked for: Lirian's Glade was burnt to the ground, Dorukan's Dungeon is a smoking ruin, the Sapphire Guard is down to three living members, and the Draketooth family was murdered as they sat down to breakfast.

The only consolation any of them have is that Lirian and Dorukan's souls get to spend eternity together in a gem. Soon Kim will never see his wife again because the Snarl unmade her and Girard will have no descendants able to seek vengeance on Varsuuvius. (He seems like the sort of guy who'd be interested in that.)

Maybe the time spent in Girard's phantasm will lead Roy to better appreciate his relationship to Elan and Haley and strengthen the party's bonds at what is otherwise surely their darkest hour. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Darkest_hour)
Don't be too eager to find something deep about a comic, particularly one that is willing to bend the plot pretty bad just to use a cheap joke [which is wish of the author by the way. A comic of philosophy would not have a tenth the readership.] Many of the themes we "find" are there because we draw themes from everywhere, a great many of which are simply imagined, and it is something of an accident if they were present in the first place, much less the purpose of the story.
The splitting of the Order of the Scribble is a plot convenience, not a moral lesson to stick together or anything. If the 5 had stuck together, we would have had 5 scenes that were pretty much identical. When the party splits, we can have 5 very different scenes [or at least 5 with different scenery]. So it doesn't matter whether the idea of splitting was good or bad. The story benefited from the split, and so we look for ways to make that split look as reasonable as possible.
The weakness of the former guards was not caused by the actual conditions, but by the need of the plot for them to fail. Therefore the hunt was for ways for them to fail, with the added point that they must fail in a way that does not allow X to succeed. Thus we have that Lirian's defense can not be effective against undead whether or not an actual Lirian would have been more effective. But the gate must be destroyed so X has a motive to go to the next gate, and fire works pretty good here, again whether or not an actual Lirian would have put in some fireproofing. No theme need apply.
In the same way Miko destroying the gate is not to draw some moral picture, but to get rid of the gate so the story continues. Note here that O'Chul had been trying to do the same thing only a few strips earlier. We can try to distinguish the two cases, but ultimately we come down to her merely being tactically wrong without much proof that O'Chul being tactically right. Again we are tacking on the theme after the fact.
As a minor point, this is far from the Order's darkest hour. It is merely the current dark hour. Soon after they were run out of the city, they were in far worse condition. Now maybe in a strip or two, they will set a new record, but right now their condition is merely dim.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Just a nitpick, looking for the gates does not violate the Paladin's oath, just the Sapphire's Guards oath, which are different.

[137beth]

Again we are tacking on the theme after the fact.
Have you possibly considered that the author intended for those themes to exist, while also slipping them in in a way which allows the plot to continue?

[Sir_Leorik]

Citation please?

Mr. Jones: Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html)

Shojo swore to uphold Soon's Oath when he became commander of the Sapphire Guard. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html)

And as seen here, as soon as Hinjo learned about his uncle's many deceptions, including Soon's Oath, he began leaving to inform the Magistrates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) (He was only stopped because Miko decided to go crazy.)

As Celia noted in her closing arguments of the OotS's trial, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) a Lawful Good government should be aware that bad laws get passed and should examine laws that might be flawed in order to amend or repeal them. The Sapphire Guard all swore to obey Soon's Oath to the other members of the OotScribble, but if Shojo felt so strongly that the Oath put his city (and the world) in jeapordy, he should have attempted to amend the law. He could have tried convincing the others guarding the Gates that they needed to ignore the mishegaas that went on between Dorukan, Girard and Soon after Kraagor's death and work together. But he didn't, and that led to his undoing. Which is also ironic: perhaps if Shojo had been willing to be honest with someone (even if it was only Hinjo) he might have gotten honest counsel about what to do. Instead he feigned insanity, Miko went mad, and she murdered him.

[Sir_Leorik]

Don't be too eager to find something deep about a comic, particularly one that is willing to bend the plot pretty bad just to use a cheap joke [which is wish of the author by the way. A comic of philosophy would not have a tenth the readership.] Many of the themes we "find" are there because we draw themes from everywhere, a great many of which are simply imagined, and it is something of an accident if they were present in the first place, much less the purpose of the story.

The author commentary in books two and three lay out a lot of what Rich Burlew was thinking when he wrote these scenes. From those author commentaries and the subsequent strips, I am extrapolating that these are the themes that the author intended. This isn't a comic about "philosophy", but it is a work of literature (with stick figures and comedy) and the author is using many literary tropes to tell his story.

Also there happens to be a webcomic devoted to philosophy (and math, science and linguistics) (http://xkcd.com/) which I hear is quite popular. It uses stick figures and comedy too, but there is no ongoing narrative, eschews literary tropes in favor of mathematical equations, and focuses on esoteric topics of interest to science and math majors rather than fantasy roleplaying gamers. :smallcool:

[EmperorSarda]

Mr. Jones: Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html)
Because it was the equivalent of revealing classified information. But telling the Order about the Gates is not the crime that Shojo was guilty of. Hinjo was there. If it was deemed illegal, Hinjo would have arrested him then.


And as seen here, as soon as Hinjo learned about his uncle's many deceptions, including Soon's Oath, he began leaving to inform the Magistrates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) (He was only stopped because Miko decided to go crazy.)

Yes. Because Shojo revealed that the whole trial was fake, staged. I doubt hiring Roy to check on the other gates was the criminal offense that Hinjo was going to have his uncle arrested.

[David Argall]

Have you possibly considered that the author intended for those themes to exist, while also slipping them in in a way which allows the plot to continue?
Always possible, but it seems to put the cart before the horse. There is a tale to tell here, full of amazing deeds, bravery, etc. Any theme that might fit in might, but we have the tale to tell first, and the theme comes in only if it fits. Here, the story requires that the first 4 gates be destroyed. The theme that they fail because of this or that fault of their makers is just secondary at most, and possibly entirely accidental. They have to fail some way, and most of those ways are in some way a fault of their makers, who didn't build them to meet that threat. But the essential point is that they have to fail, and whether that is a direct fault or we really have to reach is not important. Our theme is pretty much tacked on, if it is not there by accident.
The case of Miko & O'chul suggests it is accident. Both tried to destroy the gate when it looked likely to fall into the lich's control. We could pretty easily reverse their positions [except that it would deprive us of some of the more dramatic scenes. Even that can be overcome. We extend the pardon to all useful prisoners and Miko is placed in the throne room, where she now replaces O'Chul, who we start on the wall, and then have rush in to the throne room to report disaster, only to see more disaster, which causes him to destroy the gate [probably without a dramatic speech, but pretty much otherwise we are just using a different stick figure.] Now Miko works better here because she is an unsympathetic figure, not because she would be really more likely to destroy the gate. [We invent reasons she would be more likely, but to make her decision credible, we need make it reasonable that O'Chul might do the same thing.] From the view of the theme, this is very bad writing. The gate might have been destroyed by a completely different character of highly different nature due to mere chance. The theme is obscured. But from the view of story, we get the great drama of almost destruction when it appeared the gate was lost, and actual destruction when the threat was much less. This makes for great scenes, but thematic incoherence.

Themes may well be a motive of our writer, but they are a second or third level goal.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes. Because Shojo revealed that the whole trial was fake, staged. I doubt hiring Roy to check on the other gates was the criminal offense that Hinjo was going to have his uncle arrested.

Shojo was allegedly guilty of obstruction of justice (sending Miko to arrest the OotS on charges Shojo knew to be false and then rigging a trial), arranging to reveal state secrets to foreign nationals (he told the OotS the secret of the Gates, which is a serious offense; while he revealed this information as part of a trial in order to pursue justice, he was rigging the trial the whole time to secretly get the OotS down to the throne room in order to spill the beans without the paladins being the wiser), attempting to break Soon's Oath by hiring foreign nationals (Serini very clearly stipulated "No spying, no "just checking in" visits, no nothing." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Roy was being hired to "just check in".)

And of course Shojo released Belkar from prison illegally, while replacing him with an illusion. Shojo ordered the Linear Guild held without trial. (Given everything Nale, Sabine and Thog did in Azure City, there were plenty of grounds to try them each for conspiracy to commit murder, multiple counts of attempted murder, one count of consorting with fiends, two counts of conspiracy to consort with fiends, one count of being a Consort Fiend, multiple counts of destruction of property and one count of impersonating a Lepreachaun. They take that last one very seriously in Azure City!)

It is entirely possible that if Miko hadn't murdered Xykon, the OotS had saved Azure City and Lord Shojo had his trial that he would have been found not guilty. He could have agreed to a plea bargain: he would step down as commander of the Sapphire Guard for "health reasons" while maintaining rulership of Azure City, all to keep the public from learning about the Gates. But Miko would never have countenanced such a compromise, even with Xykon and the Hobgoblin army bearing down on the city, and she murdered Shojo, just like Frank Castle would.

[Sir_Leorik]

The case of Miko & O'chul suggests it is accident. Both tried to destroy the gate when it looked likely to fall into the lich's control.

You raise an interesting point: did O-Chul know about the Ghost Martyrs? If he did, how much did he understand about how they worked? Remember that O-Chul was originally an infantryman promoted to join the Sapphire Guard (Fighter multicassing into Paladin). He may not have known for sure that Soon Kim would call his followers to join him in battle with Xykon. But Miko arrived to the battle late. There were many things she could have done (not least of which was to get O-Chul out of the throne room while Soon was fighting Xykon and Redcloak). At the point she arrived Soon was winning and destroying the Gate was no longer vitally necessary to stopping Xykon. Instead it was about Miko fulfilling her special destiny.

[David Argall]

You raise an interesting point: did O-Chul know about the Ghost Martyrs? If he did, how much did he understand about how they worked?
But the fact we are not sure argues against any theme [of any importance]. If we intend a theme of what drove a man to rob a bank, we can not make him forgetful or otherwise able to do the deed by accident because we are then questioning whether the theme exists at all. [& we might put such in just to produce a dramatic scene at the trial.] [Different themes, even quite close, might need this data, but that makes them different themes.] In Azure City, a theme that Miko destroyed the gate thru major character flaw requires it be clear no sensible paladin would have done so. And so any doubt about what O'Chul knew is resolved against the theme. If the text does not make it clear Miko knew and O'Chul didn't, the point is resolved against the theme.



Remember that O-Chul was originally an infantryman promoted to join the Sapphire Guard (Fighter multicassing into Paladin). He may not have known for sure that Soon Kim would call his followers to join him in battle with Xykon.
On the other hand he was a close associate of one who definitely did know and was being sent to where that information might be vital. And Miko was away from the city for long periods, and could easily not have had a need to know, nor much need to talk with others who might pass on the details. So we are left with doubt, which weakens the theme at least.



But Miko arrived to the battle late. There were many things she could have done (not least of which was to get O-Chul out of the throne room while Soon was fighting Xykon and Redcloak).
Actually a bad choice. If Song was winning, there was no need to move him. If he was losing, there was need to do other.


At the point she arrived Soon was winning and destroying the Gate was no longer vitally necessary to stopping Xykon. Instead it was about Miko fulfilling her special destiny.
Miko was faced with a room full of dead paladins, and some paladin spirits being rapidly eliminated. O'Chul would have faced the same. There is no overwhelming reason to think he would not have considered destroying the gate a reasonable choice under such conditions. There were several alternatives, but no reason to rule out taking out the gate.
We learn Soon was winning in the next strip, but we gain insider information at that time. We have no reason to think that would have been clear to Miko or O'Chul. In fact the previous scene is set up to suggest the opposite, that the situation was looking dire. Miko may be insane to deem she has a special destiny, but we need the scene to look desperate to trigger that insanity. She did not go to the throne room to destroy the gate, but rather to protect it. So we can see O'Chul doing just what she did.
So again, we get a challenge to any theme. For a pure story, we get some great scenes, but we are rapidly shifting back and forth here between easy win and total loss, and any theme is going to be damaged by the hunt for dramatic change.

[Amphiox]

Many of the themes we "find" are there because we draw themes from everywhere, a great many of which are simply imagined, and it is something of an accident if they were present in the first place, much less the purpose of the story.

This, it must be said, is common to all literature, high and low.

Only the author truly knows if a theme in his or her work was deliberately put there, or simply inferred by the reader. But many an author has commented that their readers find themes in their writing they did not anticipate themselves.

And there are even themes that an author may put in subconsciously, without being aware of deliberately doing so, because said themes pervade the culture from which the author comes from or is drawing on, and thus hitch a ride into the work, unawares.

But that does not make the themes any less real or true.

[veti]

You raise an interesting point: did O-Chul know about the Ghost Martyrs?

For that matter, did anyone (bar Hinjo) know about them? Remember, when Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) saw Soon's spirit, she thought he was there for her, not that he'd turned up to lead the ghost-martyrs in battle. Maybe she didn't know about them.


If he did, how much did he understand about how they worked? Remember that O-Chul was originally an infantryman promoted to join the Sapphire Guard (Fighter multicassing into Paladin). He may not have known for sure that Soon Kim would call his followers to join him in battle with Xykon.

I would assume that induction into the Sapphire Guard involves being told its basic tenets and secret lore, regardless of your previous career. But possibly this particular secret wasn't part of the basic induction package.

[Bulldog Psion]

You can simplify the question, perhaps, by noting that there is one failing all the gates have; they are defended solo.

In short, the defenses are pretty much focused on one method of defense, and one only. If they had been working together, each gate would have multiple defense modes and thus less glaring weak points.

So the ironic failings of the gates can be summed up as:

United we stand, divided we fall.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nope. Strip #449, Hinjo to Durkon: "There are some secrets known only unto the ruling family, until now." Or words to that effect.

So no paladin other than Hinjo knew about Soon's last line of defense for the Azure City Gate.

[Phantom Thief]

You can simplify the question, perhaps, by noting that there is one failing all the gates have; they are defended solo.

In short, the defenses are pretty much focused on one method of defense, and one only. If they had been working together, each gate would have multiple defense modes and thus less glaring weak points.

So the ironic failings of the gates can be summed up as:

United we stand, divided we fall.


Well yes, of course that seems to be a main point of the Scribble, but I think the idea behind this thread, or at least the idea we have ended up discussing, was what made it necessary? All of the Scribbles were epic characters in their own right, and had a reasonable chance of taking on Xykon. In fact, they all did do reasonably well against him for a time. So I think the question is more what is the individual weakness of each member which could have been covered by the others, which explains as a whole the idea of "United we Stand, Divided we Fall."

[stsasser]

The MitD IS the most powerful monster we've seen.

Really? When did we see it? :mitd:

[137beth]

But the fact we are not sure argues against any theme [of any importance].
But we are sure. Hinjo specifically said that no one outside the ruling family knew.

[hamishspence]

We learn Soon was winning in the next strip, but we gain insider information at that time. We have no reason to think that would have been clear to Miko or O'Chul. In fact the previous scene is set up to suggest the opposite, that the situation was looking dire. Miko may be insane to deem she has a special destiny, but we need the scene to look desperate to trigger that insanity. She did not go to the throne room to destroy the gate, but rather to protect it. So we can see O'Chul doing just what she did.

O'Chul's "I will say no more about it, lest I speak ill of the dead" remark here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html

does seem to imply that he thought Miko's action was a mistake, to me.

[David Argall]

O'Chul's "I will say no more about it, lest I speak ill of the dead" remark here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html

does seem to imply that he thought Miko's action was a mistake, to me.

One reason not to speak ill of the dead is that you might have done the same thing in their place. [& Hinjo praises O'Chul for doing what Miko did.] And "seem to" is an acknowledgement that the statement might be entire irrelevant and refer to something like Miko pausing to give a self-glorifying speech when she should just chop or pause to see how the battle is going. So we are left with a confusion of motives that is terrible for a story of themes, but no problem at all for a tale of grand adventure.

[B. Dandelion]

And "seem to" is an acknowledgement that the statement might be entire irrelevant

Some people just prefer to word their own conclusions not in terms of irrefutable fact.

For my money hamishspence is modest and 100% correct.

[Kish]

Indeed.

Not phrasing everything you claim as "we see...we know" in no way means you're less accurate than someone who does phrase them that way. It just means you aren't given to claiming more certainty than you actually have.

[Fish]

Hinjo praises O'Chul for doing what Miko did.
Surely O-Chul was doing it at a different time than Miko, under different tactical conditions. When you go to Plan B is surely as important as what Plan B is.

[Snails]

Hinjo trusted O-Chul, for good reason.

Furthermore, if O-Chul erred, Hinjo was willing to accept the responsibility. Hinjo basically left O-Chul to die, and with very incomplete information about the Gate defenses. Thus Hinjo was personally obligated to give O-Chul the benefit of the doubt.

O-Chul was right to attempt to destroy the Gate, given the information readily available to him at the time.

Miko was wrong, given the information readily available to her at the time. If she only did the completely obvious thing, she would have likely earned a pardon from Hinjo (or at least expulsion from the kingdom, but with freedom).

[veti]

O-Chul was right to attempt to destroy the Gate, given the information readily available to him at the time.

Miko was wrong, given the information readily available to her at the time. If she only did the completely obvious thing, she would have likely earned a pardon from Hinjo (or at least expulsion from the kingdom, but with freedom).

If you wanted to give Miko the benefit of the doubt...

... you could note that she was approaching from the doorway, behind the throne, and the battle between Soon and Xykon was way over the other side of the room. It would make tactical sense for Miko to remain concealed until she had time to complete her vital task. She wouldn't have seen that Soon was winning until too late.

(Yeah, I know, I know - who ever wants to give Miko a break around here?)

[ZerglingOne]

I'd say more the ironic failing of Dorukan was the fact one single good idiot brought down the entire gate. Xykon had literally nothing to do with the gate failing. He was actually physically destroyed by the magic protecting it.

[HanKhalifa]

One reason not to speak ill of the dead is that you might have done the same thing in their place. [& Hinjo praises O'Chul for doing what Miko did.]

Agreed, and he did in fact try to destroy the gate, under the conditions where it did seem like the best move. However, either I'm missing/misinterpreting something here, or everyone else is, and I don't mind which is true as long as we can clear this up.

I'm under the impression that when O-Chul says in #663, "I did make that decision, and it was my blade that did the deed", he actually believes that HE destroyed the gate. That's the last thing he did, or attempted to do, before he was paralyzed, and it's my thinking that he legitimately doesn't realize it was Miko who completed the act, due to said paralysis and the timing thereof. Which is to say, he didn't actually perceive anything that happened in between being paralyzed and roundabout #541 where he's been woken up and is being tortured by Redcloak. He realizes he's been taken prisoner, and finds out that the gate is destroyed in #544, naturally assuming he was successful in his own attempt to destroy it.

This is possible considering it's a paralyzing touch of sorts rather than Hold Person, which we've seen does allow one to perceive, just not act, for the duration of the spell. The one hole in this, is the fact that O-Chul knew that Belkar had left him for dead (#666). I assumed that this was because someone told him that was the case, but I just checked and it seems nobody other than Roy (if he was scrying there) could have witnessed the event. We certainly did not see him communicate that info to O-Chul, especially considering he was only rez'd one strip prior. Rules say that paralysis allows purely mental actions, but I don't believe that proves things one way or another, for reasons I'm sure you are all familiar with.

Thus, in my interpretation, when he intends not to speak ill of the dead, he means the ghost-martyrs, soldiers, etc., not specifically Miko. I.E., he doesn't want to imply that him having to destroy the gate was a failure of the paladins, or soldiers, or ghost-martyrs if he knew they existed, as this would indeed be speaking ill of the dead.

Basically, the consensus around this thread seems to be that he was covering for Miko and/or misrepresenting that he had done the deed, but it seems to me that he thinks he actually did destroy the gate. Why would he lie, being a paladin, and considering the importance of what happened? Furthermore, why would he cover for Miko? Neither of those seem to line up with paladinhood, being in the Sapphire Guard specifically, or O-Chul's demonstrated character traits, specifically integrity.

So, what do y'all think, either about the above questions, my interpretation, or the potential hole in it? I would really like it if we could verify one way or another whether O-Chul didn't perceive those events, or did in fact perceive them and chose to "take the blame", so to speak. And if he did do that, then WHY??? (this boggles me, because even though I'm hardly convinced of my own theory, it makes the alternative seem even more of a stretch). Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, and if it is just lmk and I'll gladly start another thread. This is my first post, so I didn't want to overstep my bounds, especially since this thread got me thinking about it.

[B. Dandelion]

I'm under the impression that when O-Chul says in #663, "I did make that decision, and it was my blade that did the deed", he actually believes that HE destroyed the gate.

The fact that he remembers Belkar ditching him is really strong evidence he did see what had happened while paralyzed. If you won't take that it seems scarcely worth it to mention that that Redcloak mentions Miko as the culprit to him as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) and gets no reaction, but there it is for whatever it's worth.

Why word it in such a careful way so as to correspond with what we know literally happened, except to imply he does know what really happened? If the point was to say he didn't know, it'd make much more sense to just say "yes" to Hinjo rather than give him a convoluted answer that by mere coincidence is true but misleading. What would be the point of Rich putting those words in O-Chul's mouth? To deliberately confuse a rather trivial issue?


Why would he lie, being a paladin, and considering the importance of what happened? Furthermore, why would he cover for Miko? Neither of those seem to line up with paladinhood, being in the Sapphire Guard specifically, or O-Chul's demonstrated character traits, specifically integrity.

He tells us why. To not speak ill of the dead. (O-Chul had a lot of respect for Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html).) There's no tactical advantage in knowing a now-dead person was the actual culprit. The deed is done either way, there's no undoing it -- knowing what actually happened will simply heighten the sense of frustration felt by the heroes that victory had been within their grasp but for Miko, without giving them any intel that will help them in the future. O-chul's not above lying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) depending on circumstances.

[137beth]

Also, he didn't lie. He equivocated, since he didn't want to speak ill of Miko.

[Sir_Leorik]

One reason not to speak ill of the dead is that you might have done the same thing in their place.

"Speaking ill" means trashing someone's reputation; as a paladin, O-Chul believes that he should never malign someone's reputation, especially one who is no longer around to defend herself. Since Miko is no longer around to defend herself and O-Chul doesn't want to speculate on her motives for destroying the Gate, he provided as many facts as possible, while concealing as much as he could. O-Chul did not wish to elaborate on why the Gate was destroyed if it would shame Miko.


Hinjo praises O'Chul for doing what Miko did.

O-Chul did not try to take credit for destroying the Gate for glory or honor; he stated a few bare facts and allowed Hinjo to interpret them as he saw fit.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm under the impression that when O-Chul says in #663, "I did make that decision, and it was my blade that did the deed", he actually believes that HE destroyed the gate.

No, O-Chul is making two separate statements, in order to keep Miko from being shamed. O-chul "did make that decision", but he never got the chance to carry it out; and "it was [O-Chul's] blade that did the deed" refers to Miko snatching O-Chul's katana out of his hands in order to destroy the Gate. O-Chul was conscious the enter time he was paralyzed from Xykon's paralyzing touch attack; those are permanent unless dispelled in D&D 3.X.


Why would he lie, being a paladin, and considering the importance of what happened?

What O-Chul told Hinjo was true, from a certain point of view. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFz8W7fYMy4)

[Morty]

Who destroyed the gate isn't actually important now. It's destroyed and the Order and the Sapphire Guard have no way of rebuilding it. If O-Chul had told the others that Miko had done it, it would have made no difference. It would have made them even more angry with her, but since she's already dead it wouldn't make any actual difference either. So O-Chul decided to let Miko rest in peace.

[hamishspence]

Seems reasonable. If O-chul approved of Miko's action- there would have been no reason for him to have concealed it- quite the reverse, if he wants her reputation to be rehabilitated.

[Sir_Leorik]

Who destroyed the gate isn't actually important now. It's destroyed and the Order and the Sapphire Guard have no way of rebuilding it. If O-Chul had told the others that Miko had done it, it would have made no difference. It would have made them even more angry with her, but since she's already dead it wouldn't make any actual difference either. So O-Chul decided to let Miko rest in peace.


Seems reasonable. If O-chul approved of Miko's action- there would have been no reason for him to have concealed it- quite the reverse, if he wants her reputation to be rehabilitated.

Exactly. O-Chul saw no reason to add more disgrace to the reputation of a dead woman who had once been an honorable samurai, not to mention his superior officer. By not providing Hinjo with a detailed account of what happened in the throne room, O-Chul can keep Miko from being known as the woman who cemented the loss of Azure City to Xykon. While the Hobgoblins were overrunning the Azure City forces at that time, Xykon and Redcloak were getting trounced by the Ghost-Martyr of Soon, Jirix and the Hobgoblin General were both dead, and Hinjo and the remaining members of the OotS were all planning to retake the castle. If Soon had destroyed Xykon and killed Redcloak, its likely the Hobgoblins might have fled the battle. Instead Miko destroyed the Gate, blew up the castle, demoralized the already fleeing Azurite soldiers, and Hinjo and half the OotS fled the city. Instead of giving every detail, O-Chul gave the bare minimum, so that Hinjo might believe that Soon was defeated by Xykon and O-Chul chose to destroy the Gate rather than have Miko possibly becoming the most hated woman among the Azurite refugees.

[xroads]

Maybe the OTS will arrive at Kraagor's gate only to find it's defenses have already been defeated.

The cause?

The gate's defenses rely on powerful monsters. What if they all ate each other?!?

Not sure if that qualifies as irony, but it seemed appropriate. :-)

[Sir_Leorik]

Maybe the OTS will arrive at Kraagor's gate only to find it's defenses have already been defeated.

The cause?

The gate's defenses rely on powerful monsters. What if they all ate each other?!?

Not sure if that qualifies as irony, but it seemed appropriate. :-)

Well, as of strip 844 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) the Gate at Kraagor's Tomb is still functioning. So if the monsters did eat each other until the dungeon's ecology was completely drained and the remaining predators left to forage for food or died of starvation, no one's destroyed the Gate.

I think the irony of Kraagor's Gate is that Serini decided to buy a bunch of monsters and toss them into a dungeon, and then left. Her wanderlust made her unwilling to settle down and secure the Gate (unlike all four of her surviving compatriots). That means that Kraagor's Tomb could be an illogical gilded hole dungeon, as were common in the earliest days of (A)D&D. The DM would throw together a dungeon and stock it with critters and treasure, without trying to justify why the monsters were there, how they could survive or how some of the larger ones fit into the dungeon in the first place. So anything could be in that dungeon, and no one's managing the place.

[HanKhalifa]

O-chul "did make that decision", but he never got the chance to carry it out; and "it was [O-Chul's] blade that did the deed" refers to Miko snatching O-Chul's katana out of his hands in order to destroy the Gate.
...
What O-Chul told Hinjo was true, from a certain point of view. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFz8W7fYMy4)

See, this. This is exactly what I was missing. The whole "carefully worded statement in order to make people assume the most straightforward interpretation" aspect of it. Almost oracle-like, at that. It certainly seems a little more Neutral than Lawful, but absolutely lines up with his character, especially given he didn't actually lie.

For the record, you have now convinced me to renounce my former interpretation. He witnessed everything, and did cover for Miko, but didn't lie. Just spoke very carefully.

[MReav]

I doubt that Hinjo and co could have won the battle for Azure City. By the time Redcloak took the castle, the primary defenses had already been overwhelmed. The battle was lost by that point, and the only thing they could do was make it as painful as possible.

That said, if Redcloak and Xykon were killed in the throne room, then at least 4 of the highest ranked members of the Hobgoblin forces would have been wiped out, so their ability to consolidate this win would have been crippled.

[martianmister]

Wait. What means "failing of the gate"? OotS' failure to protect the gates from evil? Or destruction of the gates? :smallconfused:

[sengmeng]

I doubt that Hinjo and co could have won the battle for Azure City. By the time Redcloak took the castle, the primary defenses had already been overwhelmed. The battle was lost by that point, and the only thing they could do was make it as painful as possible.

That said, if Redcloak and Xykon were killed in the throne room, then at least 4 of the highest ranked members of the Hobgoblin forces would have been wiped out, so their ability to consolidate this win would have been crippled.

Anyone realize that only dumb luck made Xykon survive? He randomly paralyzed O-chul. He didn't really know anything about him and probably wasn't thinking about prisoners. If he'd killed him, how much faster would ghost-martyr O-chul and Soon have laid the beatdown on his tailbone? Probably too fast for anyone to intervene.

[David Argall]

I doubt that Hinjo and co could have won the battle for Azure City. By the time Redcloak took the castle, the primary defenses had already been overwhelmed. The battle was lost by that point, and the only thing they could do was make it as painful as possible.

That said, if Redcloak and Xykon were killed in the throne room, then at least 4 of the highest ranked members of the Hobgoblin forces would have been wiped out, so their ability to consolidate this win would have been crippled.
It may have made little difference, but #3 died in the exploding castle and would have thus survived if Red & X had been chopped up. And I believe #4 wasn't killed until super-V showed up.
A lot depends on Soon's limits. He can't damage X's hidey-hole. So if the army can just get it out of the room, X is back and eventually X would manage to win a fight, and the gate. The Dark One can just appoint another Redcloak, so the chance of eventual victory for the forces of evil is high. We can imagine Soon powerful enough to win, but his presumed power should not be much above the other squiggle members, and thus we pretty much have to give him limits that the enemy could eventually get around. [If Soon was super-powerful, he would have just marched out and soloed the army. Instead, he was only a last line of defense.]
His known weakness is being there only to defend the gate. This could mean he is quite unable to bother anyone who is not going to bother the gate, and the army could retrieve X's toy and the red cloak easily, and the attack on the gate continues. Alternatively, he may be unable to leave the throne room [or unwilling. Running around and killing enemies would be fun, but it would leave the gate exposed.] Other weaknesses are possible,
Soon was clearly able to defend the gate for awhile, but it is easy to imagine he would have had to eventually order Miko to destroy the gate.

[ZarDaranth]

I don't think that any of the goblinoid army could have gotten X's Phylactery if Soon had been able to off X and RC. Soon would have just annihilated anything that walked in the room that even looked remotely goblin, and probably would have killed X each time he reformed.

I mean, heck, with a long enough time, the ghost martyrs that were turned would have come back eventually, making it impossible for anyone to retrieve it, even if Soon had limits to ability usage per day as a ghost/homebrewedspecialgoodundeadtypecreature.

But, as a paladin's honor was unbreakable in Soon's mind, the unbreakable being broken is what shattered his gate.

[veti]

Anyone realize that only dumb luck made Xykon survive? He randomly paralyzed O-chul. He didn't really know anything about him and probably wasn't thinking about prisoners. If he'd killed him, how much faster would ghost-martyr O-chul and Soon have laid the beatdown on his tailbone? Probably too fast for anyone to intervene.

Yes, there was a heck of a lot of dumb luck flowing Xykon's way in that battle. The very timely arrival of first Redcloak, then Miko, to save him from the ghost-martyrs were entirely down to dumb luck. He personally had done nothing to earn either one.

I don't think O-Chul would have lasted long as ghost-martyr, however. He's more fighter than paladin, so my guess that, once incorporeal (with his dwarf-like CON taken out of the equation), he'd be easy for Redcloak to dispel.

[Kish]

He's more fighter than paladin,

Wouldn't actually matter; Turn Undead is based on the undead creature's hit dice. An undead level 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 fighter/paladin/ranger/rogue/cleric/monk/barbarian/sorcerer/wizard/cleric/druid is neither easier nor harder to Turn than an undead level 11 paladin.

[MReav]

It may have made little difference, but #3 died in the exploding castle and would have thus survived if Red & X had been chopped up. And I believe #4 wasn't killed until super-V showed up.

IIRC, in the commentaries, Jirix died in the explosion, but was useful enough to warrant resurrection. But you're right about General surviving if the castle didn't explode.

[hamishspence]

Actually they clarify that Jirix was killed by Miko here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

[Tragak]

Actually they clarify that Jirix was killed by Miko here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html Was that Jirix? I would've thought from the more common uniform (stark blue cloak, black armor, red belt) that was just one of the 5-star general analogues, while Jirix (dark blue cloak, grey armor, blue belt) was the Secretary of Defense to RedCloak's Commander in Chief.

Though I guess Jirix could've gotten resurrected after being killed by Miko, promoted, then killed/rezzed again.

[David Argall]

I don't think that any of the goblinoid army could have gotten X's Phylactery if Soon had been able to off X and RC. Soon would have just annihilated anything that walked in the room that even looked remotely goblin, and probably would have killed X each time he reformed.

Maybe. But Soon was not a god. He has weaknesses and limits. For the most part, we don't know what those are, but we do know he is just an epic level ghost, not a win-button.
We do know his power is related to the gate. No gate, no Soon. So the more distance between Soon and the gate, whether physical distance or other, gives us grounds for thinking Soon will be weaker. We are not sure how much, nor what sort of, "distance" will weaken him how much, but we can be pretty sure there is some sort of weakness.
We ask the question, why wasn't Soon out there bashing that army? And the answer is that he has some sort of weakness. We ask why he was kept a secret at all? And again, we have to posit a weakness. We don't know what this weakness, or weaknesses, is, but we do know there is a weakness, and a serious one. We have to reject the idea that Soon is an absolute defense for the Gate.
Now it is much more of a guess about what sort of weaknesses will exist. We do know at least some of them will relate to the Gate. This is why I suggest things like he can not attack anybody not attacking the gate. He did not show to stop Miko. He wasn't even there to help O'Chul. And the very idea of a very lawful guard only able to guard what he defends fits Soon well. For the same reason, he may not be able to leave the throne room, his post. The picture of a very powerful guard, but only powerful under certain conditions, is quite common.
Once we posit such a weakness, we have every reason to think the Soon defense can and will be broken [which is one reason it may have been kept secret. Enemies that don't know it exists are not going to be thinking of ways to get around it.] It is merely a matter of realizing one a] needs to announce neutrality about the gate [or maybe not announce hostility], or b] stand outside the throne room and use rope and/or net [note Soon is not able to harm X's refuge, and so is likely unable to harm other non-living things] to drag out Redcloak and X's toy [while Soon rages helplessly inside the room], or c... But eventually the method to resume the battle for the gates would be found.
We can see Soon as a last ditch defense. Such are routinely going to fail, but they have some hope of success too. Soon here would have been in a grim, but not hopeless, situation. Maybe the calvary would have arrived, but maybe not. So Soon faced a very serious chance of ordering the destruction of the gate.

[137beth]

Maybe. But Soon was not a god. He has weaknesses and limits. For the most part, we don't know what those are, but we do know he is just an epic level ghost, not a win-button.
We do know his power is related to the gate. No gate, no Soon. So the more distance between Soon and the gate, whether physical distance or other, gives us grounds for thinking Soon will be weaker. We are not sure how much, nor what sort of, "distance" will weaken him how much, but we can be pretty sure there is some sort of weakness.
We ask the question, why wasn't Soon out there bashing that army? And the answer is that he has some sort of weakness. We ask why he was kept a secret at all? And again, we have to posit a weakness. We don't know what this weakness, or weaknesses, is, but we do know there is a weakness, and a serious one. We have to reject the idea that Soon is an absolute defense for the Gate.
Now it is much more of a guess about what sort of weaknesses will exist. We do know at least some of them will relate to the Gate. This is why I suggest things like he can not attack anybody not attacking the gate. He did not show to stop Miko. He wasn't even there to help O'Chul. And the very idea of a very lawful guard only able to guard what he defends fits Soon well. For the same reason, he may not be able to leave the throne room, his post. The picture of a very powerful guard, but only powerful under certain conditions, is quite common.
Once we posit such a weakness, we have every reason to think the Soon defense can and will be broken [which is one reason it may have been kept secret. Enemies that don't know it exists are not going to be thinking of ways to get around it.] It is merely a matter of realizing one a] needs to announce neutrality about the gate [or maybe not announce hostility], or b] stand outside the throne room and use rope and/or net [note Soon is not able to harm X's refuge, and so is likely unable to harm other non-living things] to drag out Redcloak and X's toy [while Soon rages helplessly inside the room], or c... But eventually the method to resume the battle for the gates would be found.
We can see Soon as a last ditch defense. Such are routinely going to fail, but they have some hope of success too. Soon here would have been in a grim, but not hopeless, situation. Maybe the calvary would have arrived, but maybe not. So Soon faced a very serious chance of ordering the destruction of the gate.

1. We are tired of the royal we.
2. An epic character in 3.5 who can't solo an army of low level warriors is really, really bad.
3.Unless Xykon is somehow invulnerable to damage while regenerating, Soon should be able to take him out when he is just a skull while using up, let's see...0 expendables or hp.

[David Argall]

1. We are tired of the royal we.
Then don't use it, just as I don't.
Note that most of the "we" used are what can be termed teacher "we", as in the instructor at the blackboard saying "and so we see..."



2. An epic character in 3.5 who can't solo an army of low level warriors is really, really bad.
Which would just strengthen the case that Soon would ultimately be unable to defend the Gate.



3.Unless Xykon is somehow invulnerable to damage while regenerating, Soon should be able to take him out when he is just a skull while using up, let's see...0 expendables or hp.
Of course, but it is posited here that X can regenerate somewhere else where Soon can't/won't reach. Again, there are serious limits on what Soon could do. He lets a roomful of paladins get slaughtered. While he would regard this as a price to be paid if necessary, it is still a price and he would want to avoid that butcher's bill. But he doesn't, and once again we have to conclude there are limits to Soon's power, and ways to get around his defenses.

[hamishspence]

Note that most of the "we" used are what can be termed teacher "we", as in the instructor at the blackboard saying "and so we see..."

Which is still problematic.

[ZarDaranth]

Of course, but it is posited here that X can regenerate somewhere else where Soon can't/won't reach. Again, there are serious limits on what Soon could do. He lets a roomful of paladins get slaughtered. While he would regard this as a price to be paid if necessary, it is still a price and he would want to avoid that butcher's bill. But he doesn't, and once again we have to conclude there are limits to Soon's power, and ways to get around his defenses.

X couldn't have regenerated anywhere else. Redcloak was there, and he wears the phylactery as his cleric holy symbol. If RC's corpse drops in front of Soon, the phylactery is in reach until the end of time.

And I think Soon let the paladins do their sworn duty. An honorable death is still honor, and that was Soon's biggest failing, in letting honor come before common sense.

[David Argall]

X couldn't have regenerated anywhere else. Redcloak was there, and he wears the phylactery as his cleric holy symbol. If RC's corpse drops in front of Soon, the phylactery is in reach until the end of time.
But will the body stay there nearly that long? Given that Soon seems unable to affect the merely material, getting his body, and X's home, out of the room seems merely a matter of drugery. maybe two [or three or four, or...] soldiers run into the room, one aiming for the gate, one for Red cloak. Soon must go for the one attacking the Gate, which gives the other time to drag Redcloak [or just the cloak]at least part way out of the room. Repeat as necessary until the do-dad is far enough away for X to be back in play.



And I think Soon let the paladins do their sworn duty. An honorable death is still honor, and that was Soon's biggest failing, in letting honor come before common sense.
Now you are just positing a different weakness for Soon. A code of honor might mean Soon will have to honor a request to remove Redcloak's body for honorable burial [which again gets the toy out of the room and X back in the fight.] Maybe not? Maybe. But we have a god backing the army, a god with good relations with Tiamut, meaning our oracle would probably be told to tell the army exactly how to get around Soon's code of honor so that he would have to allow them to get Redcloak [and thus X] away from Soon. So we still asre saying Soon would only delay capture of the Gate, not prevent it.

[pearl jam]

But will the body stay there nearly that long? Given that Soon seems unable to affect the merely material, getting his body, and X's home, out of the room seems merely a matter of drugery. maybe two [or three or four, or...] soldiers run into the room, one aiming for the gate, one for Red cloak. Soon must go for the one attacking the Gate, which gives the other time to drag Redcloak [or just the cloak]at least part way out of the room. Repeat as necessary until the do-dad is far enough away for X to be back in play.


Now you are just positing a different weakness for Soon. A code of honor might mean Soon will have to honor a request to remove Redcloak's body for honorable burial [which again gets the toy out of the room and X back in the fight.] Maybe not? Maybe. But we have a god backing the army, a god with good relations with Tiamut, meaning our oracle would probably be told to tell the army exactly how to get around Soon's code of honor so that he would have to allow them to get Redcloak [and thus X] away from Soon. So we still asre saying Soon would only delay capture of the Gate, not prevent it.

Manipulating Soon's code of honor into forcing him to allow Redcloak and Xykon's remains to be rescued does not seem, to me, to be a matter resolved by looking into the future. The Oracle might be able to look forward to see if at some time in the future a condition would exist that would create a, perhaps temporary, window in which it might be possible to evade the protection the ghosts of Soon and his followers are able to provide. But that, although still a weakness, is a weakness of a different type than twisting his code to force him to concede.

[David Argall]

Manipulating Soon's code of honor into forcing him to allow Redcloak and Xykon's remains to be rescued does not seem, to me, to be a matter resolved by looking into the future.
One of the Oracle's predictions was "Don't look the gift horse in the mouth." which worked quite well. so something like "The squeaky wheel gets greased", meaning that if they beg long enough, Soon will allow them to remove the bodies. Whatever.



The Oracle might be able to look forward to see if at some time in the future a condition would exist that would create a, perhaps temporary, window in which it might be possible to evade the protection the ghosts of Soon and his followers are able to provide. But that, although still a weakness, is a weakness of a different type than twisting his code to force him to concede.
It does not matter what the weakness is. Soon just has to have one that the enemy knows about. And the Oracle makes it highly likely they will know it.

[DaggerPen]

I'm a little bit confused by what's being argued here. You guys remember that the Order was making its way to the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) before the gate went all 'splodey, right? Granted, their initial ideas weren't exactly gems, but they are high-level adventurers, and all the highest-level threats (well, excepting MitD, but while high-level, he's not much of a threat) would be gone if Xykon and Redcloak were destroyed, meaning that they'd just be fighting their way past hordes of hobgoblins and ghouls, which Haley and Belkar managed to do alone to retrieve Roy's corpse.

Let's say that Miko just never shows up in the throne room. A bit of falling rubble crushes her in her cell, boom, no more Miko.

What happens:

1. Soon kills Redcloak and Xykon. Xykon's soul goes to inhabit the phylactery, which is around Redcloak's (corpse's) neck.

2. The hobgoblins standing outside the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) may or may not try to investigate before the Order arrives. Given how little effort it took Miko to kill them, Soon wouldn't have a problem just killing them alone. If they go to get reinforcements, there may be a bit of a problem, but the chances of them getting enough hobgoblins to really pose a problem to Soon are slim, especially since it may be hard for them to get a sense of the situation without risking their own necks.

3. The Order arrives, possibly killing a bunch of hobgoblins on their way in.

4. Soon asks the Order to destroy the phylactery and the Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html). If they have trouble doing so, they take both with them and rabbit. They may need to go to extravagant lengths to destroy the phylactery, but smashing Xykon every time his skull reforms is not exactly a CR 21 task.

Would the gate need to be destroyed in that circumstance? Maybe, maybe not. With both the Crimson Mantle and Xykon's phylactery neutralized, the invading hobgoblins have no way to control the gate, and may just leave once the dust settles. But even if destroying the gate does become necessary - the Order can arrange that. And either way, Xykon and Redcloak are no longer threats.

O-Chul seems to have picked up enough of this to think that Miko choosing to destroy the gate when she did was a mistake, hence his "speak ill of the dead" comment.

And to bring this all back around to topic - Soon entrusted the task of protecting the gate to the honor of his paladins. Not only did one of his paladins break that honor and fall, but in the process of falling she threw the city into chaos, putting the gate into great jeopardy, and as her final act, she destroyed the gate in a way that prevented the main threats to all of the gates from being killed. I'd say that's suitably ironic for our purposes, and probably totally intentional on Rich's part.

[David Argall]

I'm a little bit confused by what's being argued here. You guys remember that the Order was making its way to the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) before the gate went all 'splodey, right? Granted, their initial ideas weren't exactly gems, but they are high-level adventurers, and all the highest-level threats (well, excepting MitD, but while high-level, he's not much of a threat) would be gone if Xykon and Redcloak were destroyed, meaning that they'd just be fighting their way past hordes of hobgoblins and ghouls, which Haley and Belkar managed to do alone to retrieve Roy's corpse.
Haley and Belkar were dealing with a score or so enemies, not a thousand that would have blocked their way to the castle. and they needed to be lucky at that.



2. The hobgoblins standing outside the throne room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) may or may not try to investigate before the Order arrives. Given how little effort it took Miko to kill them, Soon wouldn't have a problem just killing them alone.

Now here is the first problem. Soon's powers, tho great, are strictly limited to the Gate. He can't even stay around except because of the Gate. Now we do not know what the precise limits on him are, but the further he gets from the Gate, or the less his action is related to the Gate, the more chance he can't do it. [Note he could not stop Miko from murdering Shoto It is quite possible he can't leave the Gate at all, meaning the goblins could just stay at the door and use a rope to drag Redcloak from the room. Alternately, he may not be able to even harm a hobgoblin who has an intention of recovering Redcloak's body, and not bothering the Gate. Soon may be a Superman, but it is highly likely he has some kryptomite that can be used to bypass him.



3. The Order arrives,
Now ignoring that they are the heroes and one way or another can do anything, is there any rational reason to think they will reach the throne room? We see the party running from a few hundred hobgoblins. There re now 10,000 between party and palace. We don't strictly follow the rules here, but if we try to, we find the party killing maybe 1000 hobgoblins before they are slaughtered. Less directly rules following, the party has been having trouble defending the wall. To go on the offensive? That requires a stretch. Neither we, nor Soon, nor any other observer would think the party has much chance of reaching the Gate.



4. Soon asks the Order to destroy the phylactery and the Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).
But what are the chances here? Granted X likely put on more protection since then, but we still have a base picture of doing no better than O'Chul.



If they have trouble doing so, they take both with them and rabbit.

Again, how would they manage to rabbit? They are insanely outnumbered and surrounded.



They may need to go to extravagant lengths to destroy the phylactery, but smashing Xykon every time his skull reforms is not exactly a CR 21 task.

Would the gate need to be destroyed in that circumstance? Maybe, maybe not. With both the Crimson Mantle and Xykon's phylactery neutralized, the invading hobgoblins have no way to control the gate, and may just leave

There seems to be no reason to leave. They have this rich city to loot.



O-Chul seems to have picked up enough of this to think that Miko choosing to destroy the gate when she did was a mistake, hence his "speak ill of the dead" comment.
The key here is "when she did". A few moment earlier, it was O'Chul's prime goal. At the moment of destruction however, there is hope something will happen. The hope may not be a strong one, but it still is a reason to hold off destroying the Gate.



And to bring this all back around to topic - Soon entrusted the task of protecting the gate to the honor of his paladins. Not only did one of his paladins break that honor and fall, but in the process of falling she threw the city into chaos, putting the gate into great jeopardy, and as her final act, she destroyed the gate in a way that prevented the main threats to all of the gates from being killed. I'd say that's suitably ironic for our purposes, and probably totally intentional on Rich's part.
But we just don't need such an idea. The gates fail because that gives the heroes chances to be heroes. We don't need any other reason. If a gate is not endangered and often destroyed, the heroes got to look elsewhere for plots. So they are destroyed for reasons of dramatic plot. No philosophy need apply.
And when we do apply philosophy, we find it doesn't fit any too well. 2 of our gates are destroyed or captured in the prequel, where there is good chance they, and the theme, goes unnoticed.
I am reminded of C.S. Forester and his Hornblower series, and his other stories. Hornblower is an adventure series, nothing else. It sold like crazy. Forester also wrote some very theme heavy books, which sell as by the author of Hornblower. We would not be reading this story if it was a philosophy test.

[137beth]

But what are the chances here? Granted X likely put on more protection since then, but we still have a base picture of doing no better than O'Chul.
Well then, it's a good thing the order has access to more magic than O-Chul, and have more than two rounds to figure out how to destroy it:smallsigh:

[DaggerPen]

All right, assuming that the Order can't make it... what about O-Chul? He's still there. Petrified, yes, but he gets repeated saves, doesn't he? He managed to shake off the paralyzing touch later on, after all, and while that was after he'd gained a few levels, he would likely have shaken it off eventually, if I'm not mistaken. Then he could grab the phylactery and cloak and run.

The fact is, while the gate may have fallen regardless, it's clear from the narrative that Miko's timing was laughably bad, and that if she'd taken a few moments to assess the situation things would have ended much better. Soon even says it himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Heck, the comic where Miko smashes the gate is even titled "Good idea, bad idea," and I don't think the "bad idea" referred to there was Soon trying to kill Redcloak and Xykon. The fallen paladin was directly responsible for the fall of the gate that was protected by the honor of paladins. I don't really see how that isn't an ironic failure.

[Kish]

All right, assuming that the Order can't make it... what about O-Chul? He's still there. Petrified, yes, but he gets repeated saves, doesn't he? He managed to shake off the paralyzing touch later on, after all,
No. He shook off Mass Hold Person.

But yes, I think the Argalls' argument that Miko not destroying the Sapphire would not mean the end of Xykon and Redcloak is both logically and thematically insupportable.

[DaggerPen]

No. He shook off Mass Hold Person.

But yes, I think the Argalls' argument that Miko not destroying the Sapphire would not mean the end of Xykon and Redcloak is both logically and thematically insupportable.

Oh, whoops. Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, agreed - I think there are more than enough ways to guard the throne room long enough for someone trustworthy to find and destroy the phylactery and Crimson Mantle. Soon didn't seem at all concerned by the idea of holding the gate long enough for some other defender to walk in and take care of things, which implies to me that his mandate was to "defend the gate". If he felt it necessary to stand guard, I'm sure he could.

[rodneyAnonymous]

No. He shook off Mass Hold Person.

(And part of that spell description is "Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect." A lich's paralyzing touch ability does not have that caveat.)

[DaggerPen]

(And part of that spell description is "Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect." A lich's paralyzing touch ability does not have that caveat.)

Understood, thanks.

So it looks like O-Chul's out, but I still doubt that Soon couldn't hold the gate long enough for the Order or some other Azurite to arrive.

[Nilehus]

There's still the issue of the 20,000~ hobgoblins in Azure City. Even if they just rampaged after Redcloak and Xykon got killed, there are, very likely, still more than enough to take out the remaining OotS members and the remaining Azurite forces.

The hobbies had built a civilization of possibly 70,000 citizens, I just find it hard to believe they wouldn't have a chain of command for a situation where the top few leaders got killed.

They probably wouldn't have been able to do anything with the gate, but Azure City had fallen.

[DaggerPen]

Do we want to take this discussion to a new thread, guys? I feel like what started out as a relevant tangent is taking over the thread.

[137beth]

There's still the issue of the 20,000~ hobgoblins in Azure City. Even if they just rampaged after Redcloak and Xykon got killed, there are, very likely, still more than enough to take out the remaining OotS members and the remaining Azurite forces.

The hobbies had built a civilization of possibly 70,000 citizens, I just find it hard to believe they wouldn't have a chain of command for a situation where the top few leaders got killed.

They probably wouldn't have been able to do anything with the gate, but Azure City had fallen.

Well yea, Azure city would have fallen. The Order would have taken the Crimson Mantle and Phylactery and ran, and eventually destroyed them. The city would be a LOT easier to take back without Xykon and Redcloak. And remember that they only built a stable city with Redcloak's help. More importantly, the other gates would be safe--the threat would be eliminated.

[Nilehus]

Well yea, Azure city would have fallen. The Order would have taken the Crimson Mantle and Phylactery and ran, and eventually destroyed them. The city would be a LOT easier to take back without Xykon and Redcloak. And remember that they only built a stable city with Redcloak's help. More importantly, the other gates would be safe--the threat would be eliminated.

There wasn't a way for them to get to the castle. There was a sea of hobgoblins in the way, and Hinjo told them the idea of a tunnel running directly into the castle was too risky.

Before Xykon and Redcloak found them, they had a civilization. It wasn't trading with other countries and such as far as we know, but they did have a society. Would the city founding go as smoothly? Probably not, but I doubt they'd abandon a city they just paid 10,000 soldiers' lives for.

If the Order could have gotten the phylactery and the Crimson Mantle before they left, the threat would be ended. As it was, you've got an Epic-level ghost imprisoning an Epic-level lich that the ghost can't destroy.

Actually, that's a good campaign idea.

[DaggerPen]

There wasn't a way for them to get to the castle. There was a sea of hobgoblins in the way, and Hinjo told them the idea of a tunnel running directly into the castle was too risky.

They're a high-level party of adventurers. They wait a day, have Durkon Send to Vaarsuvius, Vaarsuvius sneaks in with invisibility (possibly very carefully directing Elan, who's Disguised Self to look like a hobgoblin), identify themselves to Soon, grab the relics, go out the window and book it. Soon can hold off hobgoblin intruders for a day, especially given that it'd take a while for the hobgoblins to regroup after invading, and for the ones waiting outside the throne room to realize that it's been a while and they should poke their heads in to figure out what's going on - and possibly get killed, depending on how far in they went.

[Nilehus]

Eh, agree to disagree. If it were a competent group of adventurers that were halfway optimized with a good leader I'd agree. Sneaking into a city of goblins wouldn't be too difficult. Unfortunately, you're working with Elan and Belkar, and no Roy to reel them in. :smalltongue:

[DaggerPen]

Eh, agree to disagree. If it were a competent group of adventurers that were halfway optimized with a good leader I'd agree. Sneaking into a city of goblins wouldn't be too difficult. Unfortunately, you're working with Elan and Belkar, and no Roy to reel them in. :smalltongue:

Agreed to disagree, then. We've gotten rather off-topic anyway. XD