Practical optimization... at level 1

[AdamT]

I was looking through some old threads (from 2010) and saw one titled 'Optimization... at level 1". It started me wondering what new tricks are out there, and was just a fun read. So lets see what the playground can come up with. Here are the requirements:

1) Party of 4 level 1 characters
A) One arcane caster
B) One divine caster
C) One "tank"
D) One melee or range who is also skill monkey
2) Each character must fill only one of the roles from 1a to 1d
3) Ability array: 16, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8
4) Able to take on Red Hand of Doom, starting at level 1
5) PO, not TO: no pun-pun, etc. Character has to be playable from 1 to 20.
6) No 3rd party, but all WotC is legal. Dragon Magazine is fine as long as its not generally assumed to be broken.

So what do you have?

[ArcturusV]

So the party is set up to look like Domain Wizard, Druid, Cleric or Druid, Cleric? Sounds Divine. :smallbiggrin:

Not being familiar with the adventure I couldn't really begin to build a level 1 party and do the build particulars to tear it up. But I'm pretty sure the class split I'd use would look like that.

[tyckspoon]

Assuming flaws are in use:

Arcane: Elf Grey Wizard Generalist, Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray), Fiery Burst reserve feat, Collegiate Wizard. 5 spells/level free and automatic and throws 2d6 mini-fireballs at will to help carry his own weight until he catches up to where the adventure expects the party to be. (Keep in mind Red Hand is written to start at 5th level.)

Divine: Cloistered Cleric, DMM Persist. Trade Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (since we know we're looking at Red Hand, focus knowledge investments on whatever is needed for dragons and goblinoids.) Will probably spend early levels doing a lot of emergency healing and crossbow plonking, but since the party is going into the adventure set 4 levels short emergency healing will likely be needed. (Bonus optimization: get everybody to follow the same god and do all your healing with Faith Healing.)

Tank: Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes. DR and high AC from Adamantine body combined with Crusader features lets this build absorb damage that would knock out most first level characters twice over. Imp. Trip/Combat Reflexes plus a reach weapon is the melee standard for battle control.

Skills: Factotum. Nothing hugely special I'm aware of for Factotums to take at 1st level, but they're just kind of generally good.

[AdamT]

I'm almost afraid to post a reply to my own thread due to my low tofooey, but:

1) Arcane caster: Human Wizard Focused Conjurer 1 with precocious apprentice, fiery burst, and abrupt juant (str 8, dex 12, con 15, int 18, wis 13, cha 10)
2) Divine Caster: Human Cleric 1 with one flaw, heighten spell, dmm: heighten, summon elemental (str 12, dex 10, con 13, int 8, wis 18, cha 15)
3) Skillmonkey: Lesser Assamar unarmed swordsage 1 with wild cohort feat
4) I have no clue how to even begin to optimize a "tank". So lets just say a Crusader 1.

[Emperor Tippy]

Grey Elf Generalist Domain Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate and two flaws. That gives you 4 first levels spells per day and two more feats to spend along with Int to HP.

Or Elan Psion with two flaws and the feats Elan Resilience, Enhanced and Psion Talent taken twice (or once with Hidden Talent being taken once for 1 less PP but an additional first level power known). That is 10 (or 9) PP/day which can now be spent as an immediate action to reduce damage taken by 4 per PP spent. Take Mind Thrust as one of your powers known. Inertial Armor as well. You are fairly unlikely to die any time soon and can throw out very good damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

Assuming flaws are in use:

Arcane: Elf Grey Wizard Generalist, Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray), Fiery Burst reserve feat, Collegiate Wizard. 5 spells/level free and automatic and throws 2d6 mini-fireballs at will to help carry his own weight until he catches up to where the adventure expects the party to be. (Keep in mind Red Hand is written to start at 5th level.)
I would dump Collegiate Wizard for FMI. At that point the extra HP is far more likely to help you than the extra spells known. You also forgot Domain Wizard.

And incidentally, you now have three 2nd level spell slots at first level (and two second level spells that you can put in them, although you can only actually cast the PA spell).

[Amnestic]

For the record, the first fight in RHoD is Encounter Level 9. It has 12 CR 1 enemies, 3 CR 3 enemies (one of which is a Cleric) and one CR 4 enemy, for a total of 16.

They also ambush the party unless the party happens to have high spot checks. I'd be impressed by any party who could, on average, beat that encounter at 1st level. S'not even getting into the rest of the fights. Skull Gorge Bridge alone would pose a fair few problems simply because there's a dragon involved and it'd be the fourth major encounter (First fight->Hydra->Vraath->Skull Gorge) which means that it's not likely the party has gone beyond level 2, limiting their options greatly.

[Emperor Tippy]

For the record, the first fight in RHoD is Encounter Level 9. It has 12 CR 1 enemies, 3 CR 3 enemies (one of which is a Cleric) and one CR 4 enemy, for a total of 16.

They also ambush the party unless the party happens to have high spot checks. I'd be impressed by any party who could, on average, beat that encounter at 1st level. S'not even getting into the rest of the fights. Skull Gorge Bridge alone would pose a fair few problems simply because there's a dragon involved and it'd be the fourth major encounter (First fight->Hydra->Vraath->Skull Gorge) which means that it's not likely the party has gone beyond level 2, limiting their options greatly.

Precocious Apprentice Invisibility and the Fire or Evocation domains (for Fiery Burst reserve feat).

EDIT: For some reason this bit got left out. A scroll of Invisible Fireball (it's within level 1 wealth range). The party can actually afford a few.
End EDIT

Familiar drops a vial of acid (target the square) on the Cleric or the CR 4 enemy. Repeat while those enemies try and get to you/find you (the party is 800 feet away at the point of attack, and it could have been an Invisible Fireball).

Pity no member of the group can afford a wand of Invisible, Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, magic missile.

Now you are down to 3 CR 3 enemies and 1 CR 4 enemy (at worst and assuming that you didn't roll well on your fireball).

Factotum Grey Elf archer with a masterwork Longbow that the cleric has cast Magic Weapon on has 300 foot range with +2 to attack (when spending an IP for Int to Attack, 400 foot range at +0 attack). Take Font of Inspiration 3 times and then sit back and snipe the survivors from maximum range. Possibly have the party break contact for 5 minutes to regain IP and keep this up. Buy a few Sleep Arrows as well (primarily for the DC 11 Will save or fall asleep). Possibly have the Cleric use Bless as well for another +1 to attack.

So yeah, I think I can take that encounter with 4 ECL 1 characters.

Incidentally, that is 1,913 XP for each party member and a level up for everyone (and puts you about a third of the way to level 3).

[AdamT]

So yeah, I think I can take that encounter with 4 ECL 1 characters.

Incidentally, that is 1,913 XP for each party member and a level up for everyone (and puts you about a third of the way to level 3).

Thus Tippy = Win

[Seer_of_Heart]

Thus Tippy = Win

That's been established :smallwink:

[Eurus]

Precocious Apprentice Invisibility and the Fire or Evocation domains (for Fiery Burst reserve feat).

Familiar drops a vial of acid (target the square) on the Cleric or the CR 4 enemy. Repeat while those enemies try and get to you/find you (the party is 800 feet away at the point of attack, and it could have been an Invisible Fireball).

Pity no member of the group can afford a wand of Invisible, Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, magic missile.

Now you are down to 3 CR 3 enemies and 1 CR 4 enemy (at worst and assuming that you didn't roll well on your fireball).

Factotum Grey Elf archer with a masterwork Longbow that the cleric has cast Magic Weapon on has 300 foot range with +2 to attack (when spending an IP for Int to Attack, 400 foot range at +0 attack). Take Font of Inspiration 3 times and then sit back and snipe the survivors from maximum range. Possibly have the party break contact for 5 minutes to regain IP and keep this up. Buy a few Sleep Arrows as well (primarily for the DC 11 Will save or fall asleep). Possibly have the Cleric use Bless as well for another +1 to attack.

So yeah, I think I can take that encounter with 4 ECL 1 characters.

Incidentally, that is 1,913 XP for each party member and a level up for everyone (and puts you about a third of the way to level 3).

I think the main issue is that if you fail the spot check, you may very well get TPKed in the surprise round.

[AdamT]

Pity no member of the group can afford a wand of Invisible, Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, magic missile.


Maybe not, but a wand with one charge of web and a wand with 5 charges of sleep or color spray would be fair game. If your skill monkey is bard, rogue, or someone with cosmopolitan feat even your skill monkey could be a major contribution to that cr 9 encounter.

[Snowbluff]

2) Divine Caster: Human Cleric 1 with one flaw, heighten spell, dmm: heighten, summon elemental (str 12, dex 10, con 13, int 8, wis 18, cha 15)


This was the same advice given to me for my breaking the game. XD

You might want 16 Cha, so your Summon Elemental is medium.

[Amnestic]

Precocious Apprentice Invisibility and the Fire or Evocation domains (for Fiery Burst reserve feat).

Familiar drops a vial of acid (target the square) on the Cleric or the CR 4 enemy. Repeat while those enemies try and get to you/find you (the party is 800 feet away at the point of attack, and it could have been an Invisible Fireball).

Pity no member of the group can afford a wand of Invisible, Arcane Thesis, Fell Drain, magic missile.

Now you are down to 3 CR 3 enemies and 1 CR 4 enemy (at worst and assuming that you didn't roll well on your fireball).

Factotum Grey Elf archer with a masterwork Longbow that the cleric has cast Magic Weapon on has 300 foot range with +2 to attack (when spending an IP for Int to Attack, 400 foot range at +0 attack). Take Font of Inspiration 3 times and then sit back and snipe the survivors from maximum range. Possibly have the party break contact for 5 minutes to regain IP and keep this up. Buy a few Sleep Arrows as well (primarily for the DC 11 Will save or fall asleep). Possibly have the Cleric use Bless as well for another +1 to attack.

So yeah, I think I can take that encounter with 4 ECL 1 characters.

Incidentally, that is 1,913 XP for each party member and a level up for everyone (and puts you about a third of the way to level 3).

A lot of this relies on scouting ahead and making your spot check. If you fail, your familiar carrying vials is then 800' away while you're getting ambushed by a bunch of archers (Who I might add are in cover by default).

Also you can't afford a Masterwork Longbow (375gp plus arrows) on a Factotum's starting salary (even maxed it's 240gp, average is 150gp).

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed and I doubt I'd pose a significant challenge were I to take it to practical side of things, but it's not perfect :smallwink:

[Emperor Tippy]

I think the main issue is that if you fail the spot check, you may very well get TPKed in the surprise round.

And that is what the Raven or Owl is for. Have it take 20 on the Spot check.

And that is assuming that the enemies are already in hiding when the bird is scouting way ahead of you.


A lot of this relies on scouting ahead and making your spot check. If you fail, your familiar carrying vials is then 800' away while you're getting ambushed by a bunch of archers (Who I might add are in cover by default).
That is what you have the scouting familiar for.


Also you can't afford a Masterwork Longbow (375gp plus arrows) on a Factotum's starting salary (even maxed it's 240gp, average is 150gp).
First level wealth is up to 900 GP (WBL for level 2). This is less than said level.


Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed and I doubt I'd pose a significant challenge were I to take it to practical side of things, but it's not perfect :smallwink:
It's level 1 characters up against a CR 9 encounter, perfect isn't possible. Good enough is however.

[Amnestic]

First level wealth is up to 900 GP (WBL for level 2). This is less than said level.


I was under the impression that it was starting wealth, since it was a party of 1st levels. Suppose the OP should've clarified that.



It's level 1 characters up against a CR 9 encounter, perfect isn't possible. Good enough is however.

Fair play :smallwink: Not hating, love to see stuff like this in action and I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[AdamT]

I think the main issue is that if you fail the spot check, you may very well get TPKed in the surprise round.

The adventure says to give a -4 penalty to the hide check because there are 6 of them. They have no ranks in hide, and dex 13. Total for them is -3. Even unoptimized characters are going to end up with 1 or 2 out of the group of 4 with +8 to the check. 55% of the time the party will notice them just because of the check modifiers. Then the remaining 45% of the time will be who rolls better, meaning 3/4 times the party will notice the ambush.

Even if they do not, its not THAT bad. The initial setup is 8 hobgoblins and 2 hell hounds near the players, with 6 more that do not show up until round 4. Of those initial 8 hobgoblins the cr 3 and cr 4 and the hell hounds are over 100 feet from the players, so they really would not be a factor until at least round 2 (and the book specifically says they hold back the first round anyway).

So it really breaks down to
Round 1: 6 regular hobgoblins
Round 2: 2 hell hounds and a cr 3 and cr 4 hobgoblin
Round 4: 6 regular hobgoblins

Even if the group is ambushed, any of the groups listed so far would have a good chance of surviving this encounter (probably beat up, but que sera sera).

[AdamT]

Personally, I'm thinking the first real challenge would be the 6 headed hydra. The party would likely still be at level 2 when they faced it. Six attacks at +8 for d10+3 with reach and fast healing 16... I'm thinking this is going to be your toughest early game fight. By the time the party gets to the dragon it will probably be only a level or two behind what the adventure expects.

[Emperor Tippy]

Personally, I'm thinking the first real challenge would be the 6 headed hydra. The party would likely still be at level 2 when they faced it. Six attacks at +8 for d10+3 with reach and fast healing 16... I'm thinking this is going to be your toughest early game fight. By the time the party gets to the dragon it will probably be only a level or two behind what the adventure expects.

Owl or Raven drops vials of acid or Alchemists Fire on the Hydra from out of its reach.

Wand of Fell Drain, Invisible, Arcane Thesis Magic Missile. 750 GP, deals one negative level per round. Hydra lacks SR so it has no means of resisting. It's dead after six rounds. Remember to burn the body so that it doesn't rise the next day as a Wight though (or maybe let it so that you can get another CR 3 challenge for XP).

It never gets to attack, it's too slow.

[Eurus]

The adventure says to give a -4 penalty to the hide check because there are 6 of them. They have no ranks in hide, and dex 13. Total for them is -3. Even unoptimized characters are going to end up with 1 or 2 out of the group of 4 with +8 to the check. 55% of the time the party will notice them just because of the check modifiers. Then the remaining 45% of the time will be who rolls better, meaning 3/4 times the party will notice the ambush.

Even if they do not, its not THAT bad. The initial setup is 8 hobgoblins and 2 hell hounds near the players, with 6 more that do not show up until round 4. Of those initial 8 hobgoblins the cr 3 and cr 4 and the hell hounds are over 100 feet from the players, so they really would not be a factor until at least round 2 (and the book specifically says they hold back the first round anyway).

So it really breaks down to
Round 1: 6 regular hobgoblins
Round 2: 2 hell hounds and a cr 3 and cr 4 hobgoblin
Round 4: 6 regular hobgoblins

Even if the group is ambushed, any of the groups listed so far would have a good chance of surviving this encounter (probably beat up, but que sera sera).

Oh, well. I never noticed that their hide checks were that terrible.

[Curious]

For the Wizard, assuming Pathfinder is allowed-

Conjuration Specialist, taking Abrupt Jaunt because it's awesome.
Use your two traits (or take Additional Traits to get them if the DM doesn't give them to you for free) to grab Metamagic Master and Magical Lineage, both for Sonic Snap.
Grab the Fell Drain metamagic feat, and apply it for free to your Sonic Snap.

Now you have infinite standard action deal-a-negative-level-and-1-damage spells available.

[Emperor Tippy]

For the Wizard, assuming Pathfinder is allowed-

Conjuration Specialist, taking Abrupt Jaunt because it's awesome.
Use your two traits (or take Additional Traits to get them if the DM doesn't give them to you for free) to grab Metamagic Master and Magical Lineage, both for Sonic Snap.
Grab the Fell Drain metamagic feat, and apply it for free to your Sonic Snap.

Now you have infinite standard action deal-a-negative-level-and-1-damage spells available.

Ugh the idiocy. Not you but PF's writers for putting those things into print. That takes 3 feats in regular 3.5, not 2 traits.

[Curmudgeon]

And that is what the Raven or Owl is for. Have it take 20 on the Spot check.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding.
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.
The Raven is going to need to take 20 move actions, meaning a minimum of 10 rounds (1 minute) every time it tries to notice something, and that assumes it's stopped and doesn't need move actions for anything else. So any change which happens in a minute or less is still going to surprise you.

[Emperor Tippy]

The Raven is going to need to take 20 move actions, meaning a minimum of 10 rounds (1 minute) every time it tries to notice something, and that assumes it's stopped and doesn't need move actions for anything else. So any change which happens in a minute or less is still going to surprise you.

Spend the time then. Or with how bad the enemies hide checks actually are, it's unlikely to actually be necessary.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Since they're geared for an Ambush they're not going to charge you necessarily. With the Empathic Link you can end up scouting a mile away from you. Time is not really going to be too much of a factor, even if they spot the owl/raven, figure out it's a spy/scout, and decide to charge en masse from that point. 5,280+ feet covered by enemies moving 60 feet a round (Presuming combat speed because they know something spotted them but not where it is, and thus have to be prepared for a counter ambush), means you have about 82 rounds before they get into range. And your familiar would Insta-Spot an enemy who broke cover to charge.

Least that's what I'd think.

[Frosty]

Ugh the idiocy. Not you but PF's writers for putting those things into print. That takes 3 feats in regular 3.5, not 2 traits.Yeah. Me, I'd rule that no metamagic can have an adjustment of lower than +0. That brings down some shenanigans, although those two particular traits just needs to be turned into feats period or banned.

So Tippy, I guess PF can still do your vision of the magical society just fine eh? Or can it do it better because of infinite cantrips?

[Fyermind]

Well I think the wizard is pretty well statted out. The cleric is pretty much standard fare. It will be a heal bot for a while out of necessity. Warforged Crusader tanks hits like a level 5 character pretty well.

The skill monkey is a problem point though. I'm tempted to use an incarnate for 3d6 acid damage as a touch attack at level 1, but I think a totemist would work better.

Azurin Totemist 1
Feats Shape soulmeld, Expanded soulmeld capacity
Soulmelds: Kurthik Claws, Dissolving spittle
Before combat closes it can boost it's hide check considerably. Once combat starts it goes to town with a 3d6 spittle attack. It's not too scary, but with a +10 to hide checks it should be fairly reliable.

The big deal happens at level 2 (as soon as the first fight is over). With Frost Helm bound to it's totem chakra it can hit 4 targets for a DC 16 save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Now to make this a little more competitive let's add Arctic from dragon magazine for +2 con, -2 cha. That increases the save DC to 17 at level 2.
Flaws such as noncombatant (it will be a ranged attacker when it switches away from binding frost helm) can get it point blank shot and precise shot at level 1. Subsequent levels will be a combination of swift hunter and swift ambusher (Mystic Ranger / scout / rogue) and more totemist levels for enough essentia to keep it's totem chakra full.

I'm sure there is a better strategy that this modified chaingun porcupine, but it should be able to deal with traps long before they show up in the adventure and be a capable scout and precision damage dealer the whole time.

[Fable Wright]

For the melee, a Dragonborn Incarnate Warforged Mineral Warrior withe a Dread Blossom Symbiote Barbarian 1 with Extra Rage, Blazing Berserker, and Frozen Berserker tosses around a 15ft radius SoS constantly and is nearly unkillable, and can dish out some fairly decent damage to boot.

[Mithril Leaf]

My tidbit of info is to have one of the characters (probably the skillmonkey) pick up ranks in craft poisonmaking and take the feat hidden talent (psionic minor creation) so you can use the best poison you can make. It's high practical op, but you're gonna wanna have some trump cards for an adventure you're that underleveled for.

[Coidzor]

For the record, the first fight in RHoD is Encounter Level 9. It has 12 CR 1 enemies, 3 CR 3 enemies (one of which is a Cleric) and one CR 4 enemy, for a total of 16.

They also ambush the party unless the party happens to have high spot checks. I'd be impressed by any party who could, on average, beat that encounter at 1st level. S'not even getting into the rest of the fights. Skull Gorge Bridge alone would pose a fair few problems simply because there's a dragon involved and it'd be the fourth major encounter (First fight->Hydra->Vraath->Skull Gorge) which means that it's not likely the party has gone beyond level 2, limiting their options greatly.

I don't think so. My general understanding is that they'll rest in Drellin's Ferry and rest after Vraath Keep so that they're almost certainly at least level 3 by Skull Gorge Bridge.

That first fight instantly levels up the party to level 2 (1913 XP) and almost halfway to level 3. If they do the encounter with the town guards at Drellin's Ferry well, that pushes them over the halfway mark to level 3(1913 + 150 = 2063). Jorr will push them up to about 3/4 of the way to level 3(338 or 450 XP for either 2401 or 2513) and the hydra should push them up to level 3 (+650 for 3051 or 3163). They've got a 50% chance of a random encounter between EL 8 and 4 as well, before they hit Vraath Keep. Quick and dirty would be to figure for half of an EL 6's XP (675/2 = 337) for them, I suppose, without going into the exact proportional chance of getting any of them.

Worg Stables are EL 6 (675 XP) for the now third level or 2nd level and going to level after resting party(so they can still get XP up to being 1 XP away from 4th level). Figure about 50% chance of dealing with the EL 2 shack (150/2 = 75 XP) and getting xp from it. Nest and Barracks both give EL 5 (450 XP * 2 = 900 XP). Koth is EL 7 (900 XP). (2550 XP so far). So if they're stellar they'd be at 3163+2550 = 6050. If they rested and leveled to 3 before the Keep then they hit level 4 after clearing it. Otherwise they rest after the keep and are about 1 XP from level 4, and have a 50% chance of a random encounter on the way to the bridge(675/2 = 337 or 300 if level 4) as well as getting XP from Old Warklegnaw (675 or 900 XP if still level 3, otherwise 600 or 800 if level 4).

Skullgorge bridge will top that off with 2400 or 2700(if still level 3), assuming they hit 4 before skullgorge bridge that leaves them with 9550 XP, or just shy of 5th level by ~500 XP. If they manage to take it down while still 3rd level then they're 1 away from leveling to 5th level. Don't want to go further, but it seems like they'd catch up to about where they're expected to be by the time they're done with Rhest, or the Ghostlord at latest.

Granted, I could have forgotten something, and I can't guarantee their success in their endeavors, but I imagine that they'd have a shot of it.


I think the main issue is that if you fail the spot check, you may very well get TPKed in the surprise round.

Reminds me of Mark Twain's words about eggs in a basket and then watching that basket.

[Private-Prinny]

Ugh the idiocy. Not you but PF's writers for putting those things into print. That takes 3 feats in regular 3.5, not 2 traits.

Well, for what it's worth, there are a couple mitigating factors.

1) Neither of these traits is as good as the feats that you would use in 3.5 (I'm assuming Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic) as it only works for a specific spell to a lesser degree than Arcane Thesis.

2) Fell Drain doesn't actually exist in Pathfinder. It has to be imported from 3.5 for this trick to work.

Granted, the two traits are still incredibly powerful, but the infinite negative levels isn't possible with Pathfinder rules only.