Best Dark Age Comics

[t209]

Well, most of comic fans believed that Dark Ages is when comics became more immature, violent, and dark. However, there are some comics that exceeded the expectations of Dark Age comic.
- The Darkness (Most people might know it through videogames, but the main character was not muscular violent antihero but as a well rounded character who has a bit of intelligence and compassion).
- The Watchmen (the characters, Rorschach and Comedian, was meant to show How NOT to be an antihero but they are the one who started all the nineties antihero to come).
- V For Vendetta (Unlike the movies, Fascist is the only surviving government and necessary evil in post apocalyptic world, I think most Hollywood writers need to play WH40k or other necessarily evil story).

[Dienekes]

For a lot of the slack that the Dark Age gets, that is the time when generally the most critically acclaimed works came about.

You already mentioned a few, but there is Neil Gaiman's Sandman which is brilliant. Perez' Wonder Woman is largely considered the standard for the character today. For my personal favorite superhero The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, The Killing Joke, Knightfall, A Death in the Family were all within this era and set the tone and feel for the character and continuity that is still used today in various ways.

Hellboy got started and I believe that Judge Dredd went through some of his more famous arcs in this period as well.

[Avilan the Grey]

I mostly have awful memories about this period, I just don't have the "grim & gritty" or "dark & brooding" mindset.

I never liked Watchmen or V, I consider the former the most overrated comic in history and the latter boring.

The Darkness... wasn't it part of the Witchblade mythos? Image Comics, gigantic boobs and ****ty art? I read about 10 issues and it didn't seem to be better quality in that than the other Top Cow production comics, like Witchblade or CyberForce. I mean yes, it was marginally better than Witchblade, at least the main character didn't automatically change into a living string bikini every time he used his powers. I just don't recall it having anything quality-wise that put it above anything else published by Image back then.

As for Batman, I am not much of a fan. Never was, unless you count the 60ies TV series :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:. I must say I have always preferred him as a fairly realistic hero beating up regular bad guys; I am one of those few who despise his "weirdo" rogue gallery and the Joker in particular. Consequently I LOVE Year One, it is my absolute favorite Batman comic of all time. I dislike Dark Night Returns, loathe The Killing Joke. Never read A Death In The Family or Knightfall.

And Sandman et al? Again, too weird for me.

So, for me...
Not much, really. Most of the comics I liked are the ones that subverted the Dark Age thing. Here are 3 examples of what I liked back then:

Batman - Year One
Gen13 (the first 2-3 years at least)
The entire Sensational She-Hulk run

[Rolling Thunder]

I have to say I really like Sandman but I could not connect to Watchmen or the V for Vendetta comics (But I like the VfV-Movie, this perplexes myself).

If wikipedia is right with "Although sales of comic books dropped in the late 1990s and the early 2000s, sales rose for trade paperbacks, (...) In addition, the publishing format has gained such respectability as literature that it became an increasingly prominent part of both book stores and public library collections." I have to say these Dark Ages are what brought my to Comics more mature than Disney. I really love TPB but I can't stand the American single Issue format. And I think with these Graphic Novels the medium of comics finally got the place in the literaric world it deserves. I just learned that the adaption of a graphic novel won the Palme d'Or at Cannes. This really is another milestone for the whole genre.

[Selrahc]

For classic superhero stuff, Kurt Busiek's Avengers run was great, and it started out in the 90s. Old school superhero stuff, very reminiscent of the 60's and 70's era of the team.

[Kitten Champion]

One of the first comics I read were Spawn, probably was too young to appreciate the subject matter at the time but I really liked the artwork and my father who collected them was apparently unconcerned. I even bought an awesome Spawn action figure with my allowance which, in turn, led to some seriously strange interplay between him, the Ninja Turtles, Wolverine, and Barbie. I think the Biker Mice from Mars were there too. Anyways epic adventures were had.

Spawn, had a world around him that was interesting once it ignored the rest of the Image comics. It had a compelling back story and a poignant quest that wasn't just unafraid of religious subtext but delved into it openly. Spawn's anti-heroism/heroism kind of made sense and his villains were creepy and genuinely intimidating in a way 90's villains weren't. I remember staying up late to watch the animated HBO version and having my skin crawl when I first saw the true form of the Violator and heard it's ice-cold telepathic voice.

Granted, looking back, the art has a lot of problem indicative of the time period, particularly in the anatomy department. I think this is a "can't break an omelette without making a few eggs" -type situation, Todd McFarlane took what other people were doing and found ways of making it tolerable rather than just compound stupidity with more blood and constipated angry faces. Plus, all the spike-y S&M styled stuff which they overloaded 90's characters with actually works with the character.

[The Troubadour]

I liked the old DC comic "Fate"; the one where they replaced Doctor Fate with a smuggler who didn't cast spells to fight evil, but rather gutted demons with his magical knife. :-P Despite my tongue-in-cheek-but-also-honest description, the comic wasn't really grim and gritty, nor did it revel in excess violence; it had a good story, good characters, and a nice balance of action, introspection and humour.

From mid-nineties to late-nineties, I also liked "The Power of Shazam", "Martian Manhunter" and "Thunderstrike". Despite the period, none of those are even close to being Dark Age comics, though.

[BWR]

The problem I have with nearly all superhero comics is that they are far more interesting read about on Wikipedia than read the actual comics. Every time I think I'll give it another try, Marvel or DC or lesser companies, I come away rather bored.

The Dark Ages was different, with better stories, better characters and better writing. Vertigo was the only comic stuff that regularly got my money, thanks to Hellblazer (and now they've cancelled that, so screw them). My non-comic comic collection is rather small and consists of things like Sandman, Watchmen, V for Vendetta, League of Extraordinary Gentlmen, Hellblazer, Kabuki, some Star Wars plus a smattering of other stuff.

[Dienekes]

I have to say I really like Sandman but I could not connect to Watchmen or the V for Vendetta comics (But I like the VfV-Movie, this perplexes myself).

That's not really all that surprising because they really are two different animals. The comic book is about exploring two opposed political philosophies that many would consider insane to evil; anarchy and fascism. The comic takes these concepts and represents them with flawed characters and dark events that let's the reader determine which of the two they prefer given the circumstances. V is a real psychopath with no real plans for what will follow his glorious revolution beyond a surprising and at times insane seeming optimism. There is even some evidence that V is wrong, considering the last glimpse we get into his utopia is that of mass murder and rape. On the other side of things Norsefire is filled with people that can be at least recognized as real people. And the society functions, not all that well at times, and the people in it do terrible things to survive but on a whole the people within the society are given work, food, and lodgings. It is a morally complex tale that let's the reader figure things out for themselves.

The movie, while keeping the same trappings, is about how an awesome liberal superhero takes down a corrupt conservative government. Also very fun, very well developed, but trying to accomplish something very different to the original.

When all is said and done though, V for Vendetta is one of my favorite comics that demonstrates how great the medium can be. V the movie is just a good movie.

[JoshL]

Huge Sandman fan, and love Stray Toasters. The Epic comics Hellraiser series was pretty awesome too. Just reread Transmetropolitan. Man, what a good read!

But I tend not to like superhero comics, so there's that.

[Man on Fire]

I'll throw in some of Grant Morrison's comics from this time - brilliant Animal Man, completely surreal Doom Patrol and Invisibles I just started reading.

[Metahuman1]

I'd argue that during the Dark Ages the Teen Titans also had some of there best runs if not absolutely there best runs.

Judas Contract, Terror of Trigon, Death of Donna Troy and the subsequent Grant Morrison run that immediately followed it with the team being reformed for a new generation, trained by Cyborg, Changling and Starfire and consisting of Tim Drakes robin, Cassandra Sandsmarks Wondergirl, Conner Kent's Superboy, and Bart Allen's Kid Flash.

[The Troubadour]

Judas Contract

I think that's from the eighties, not the nineties.


Terror of Trigon

Is that the story where Raven returns to Earth as a Trigon-possessed half-demon?


Death of Donna Troy and the subsequent Grant Morrison run

I think it was Geoff Johns' run, not Morrison's. I really dislike that run; Johns managed to completely ignore all of Superboy's previous history and characterization, turned Impulse into a character he wasn't, and Changeling went back to Beast Boy and being solely the comic relief, instead of being a useful team member who was also the comic relief.

[Eldan]

Let's see from whta's been named so far, I've read V for Vendetta, Watchmen, a small handful of Batman stories and Sandman. Which are coincidentally also pretty much all the American comics I've ever read, so I guess I'm a Dark Age person.
Sandman is by far the best.

[Axolotl]

Since when exactly the Dark Age was is somewhat hazy I'm going to recommend what I think are the two best comics from the fringes of it (also people have already said all the main ones I'd mention anyway).

Firstly Miracleman, originally called Marvelman this was done by Moore at the same time as V for Vendetta and Watchmen and covers a lot of the same ground. For my money however it is far better, the writing is easily Moore's best and the art is much more solid than most superhero comics. The plot is about a man in a fairly grounded world who suddenly remembers that he used to be a superhero back in the 50's and then follows his attempts to work out what happened to him and the various organisations trying to exploit him. I won't spoil what happens but the crux of the series is the horror that comes from the existence of an individual who can kill entire armies with ease, there's much more to it than that though.

To be honest I'm really not capable of summarising it, it's Moore at his best. Sadly it's almost impossible to buy legally but that may be changing soon since the rights disputes seem to have settled.

The second series I'd recommend is really post-dark age but it started in the 90's so I'm going to say it anyway. Planetary by Warren Ellis, it's about archaeologists in a superhero setting. Each issue they dig up and explore some fragment of 20th century fantasy fiction, so in the first three issues for example they find Doc Savage's band of pulp adventurers, a Japanese island full of dead kaiju and the ghost of a Hong Kong police officer engaged in brutal revenge. It isn't just a recounting of Warren Ellis' childhood reading there's a overarching plot but I won't spoil it. If you're well versed in comics then it's a great adventure series full of twists and ideas, if you aren't then it's still a great series just with a recommended reading list attached. The art's beautiful, the characters are fun and they have the best Batman crossover ever.

[Metahuman1]

I think that's from the eighties, not the nineties.



Is that the story where Raven returns to Earth as a Trigon-possessed half-demon?



I think it was Geoff Johns' run, not Morrison's. I really dislike that run; Johns managed to completely ignore all of Superboy's previous history and characterization, turned Impulse into a character he wasn't, and Changeling went back to Beast Boy and being solely the comic relief, instead of being a useful team member who was also the comic relief.

Yes, but Vendetta was also 80's and I beleive so was Watchmen, and Batman: DKR and Year One were also 80's, as was Death in the Family (Cause Todds Replacement didn't show up till 89, he was named Tim in honor of Tim Burt doing the very first live action batman movie.), so it counts.


Yes, and Trigon comes a freaking inch from killing the entire population of earth and starting to move through out the cosmos doing the same to the rest of the universe including sucker punching the JLA out of existence temporarily.


Was that Jones? I could swear the run I'm thinking of was Morrison. This was about the time Tim's father died, Super-boy found out he was a clone of Lex Luther as well as Superman and got stuck in the 30th century for several relative months before showing back up 5 minutes after he'd left in the 20th century and spent some time with the Legion of Super Hero's, that run?

(note: Bart got freaking shot in the knee with a 12 gauge and had to have the spray surgically removed fast so he couldn't heal over it too much, and he couldn't even get pain killers cause his body burned them up too fast. That's a perfect reason for a character who can heal from something like that to decide "Hey, I gotta fight this guy again and my friends are trying to fight him now, I've gotta freaking start upping my game."

Assuming were talking about the same run. )

[Rolling Thunder]

Concerning V for Vendetta (Quote in Spoiler due to Length)



That's not really all that surprising because they really are two different animals. The comic book is about exploring two opposed political philosophies that many would consider insane to evil; anarchy and fascism. The comic takes these concepts and represents them with flawed characters and dark events that let's the reader determine which of the two they prefer given the circumstances. V is a real psychopath with no real plans for what will follow his glorious revolution beyond a surprising and at times insane seeming optimism. There is even some evidence that V is wrong, considering the last glimpse we get into his utopia is that of mass murder and rape. On the other side of things Norsefire is filled with people that can be at least recognized as real people. And the society functions, not all that well at times, and the people in it do terrible things to survive but on a whole the people within the society are given work, food, and lodgings. It is a morally complex tale that let's the reader figure things out for themselves.

The movie, while keeping the same trappings, is about how an awesome liberal superhero takes down a corrupt conservative government. Also very fun, very well developed, but trying to accomplish something very different to the original.

When all is said and done though, V for Vendetta is one of my favorite comics that demonstrates how great the medium can be. V the movie is just a good movie.


First let my say thanks for your objectiv and fair response! :-)
I really understand your points and on a literaric level I want myself to like the comic. I should have written that I could not connect to the art. Sometimes a comic has a really great story but I am turned off by the visual representation and that is my main beef with V and the Watchmen. And if that happens I just can't bring myself to read the comic. Maybe it is because I grew up with franco-belgique comics but I (subcontiously) of expect a certain level of artful images. Sandman e.g. delivers here very to my liking and (albeit of much later in origin) I love the Drizzt Do'Urden Graphic Novels. But to each his own! And I am absolutly not into superhero comic, so I restrain myself from commenting on them.

[The Troubadour]

Was that Jones? I could swear the run I'm thinking of was Morrison. This was about the time Tim's father died, Super-boy found out he was a clone of Lex Luther as well as Superman and got stuck in the 30th century for several relative months before showing back up 5 minutes after he'd left in the 20th century and spent some time with the Legion of Super Hero's, that run?

We ARE talking about the same run, then; we're just in doubt about whether Morrison or Johns was the author. :-)


That's a perfect reason for a character who can heal from something like that to decide "Hey, I gotta fight this guy again and my friends are trying to fight him now, I've gotta freaking start upping my game."

I agree, I just think it was too sudden (it felt more like Johns said "Hey, I want Bart to be a different character, so I'll make him into one instead of actually taking the time to develop him") AND the resulting characterizations wasn't as fun as Impulse's was.

[Jayngfet]

I think it was Geoff Johns' run, not Morrison's. I really dislike that run; Johns managed to completely ignore all of Superboy's previous history and characterization, turned Impulse into a character he wasn't, and Changeling went back to Beast Boy and being solely the comic relief, instead of being a useful team member who was also the comic relief.

So you mean exactly the same thing he's done in 90% of the other comics he's written?:smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

I love Planetary. Which started in ... *digs though box, three minutes later* ... 1999. Maybe that's too late for a 'Dark Age' comic.

When was this 'Dark Age' exactly? Late-80s 'til Mid-90s?

I'll go with Sandman and Hellblazer, and I read Hellboy and the aforementioned Planetary after that.

I didn't like V or Watchmen.
EDIT: I may have been too young to 'get it' at the time, but, now that I'm older and I've read them again...I still don't like them.

[Eldan]

Hellboy... couldn't really get into it. I don't know why, it should pretty much hit the mark for me, and I loved the movies.

[Cheesegear]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm also under the impression that the 'Dark Age' of comics is now. :smallamused:

[The Troubadour]

So you mean exactly the same thing he's done in 90% of the other comics he's written?:smalltongue:

Pretty much. :-P

[Metahuman1]

We ARE talking about the same run, then; we're just in doubt about whether Morrison or Johns was the author. :-)



I agree, I just think it was too sudden (it felt more like Johns said "Hey, I want Bart to be a different character, so I'll make him into one instead of actually taking the time to develop him") AND the resulting characterizations wasn't as fun as Impulse's was.

Well, I liked him for the rest of that run, he was fun, still a bit immature but he grew. And remember, the trick he used meant that he basically spent a year (though for everyone else it was like 5-10 minutes, 20 tops.) doing nothing but intensive memorization of everything contained within the entire city of San Fransisco Library's resources. Every book, tape, magazine and possibly everything of actual relevance on the net. That's a massive knowledge dump on top of a year of time to assimilate it and ponder it with the threat of the guy who gave you the worst screw up you've ever suffered waiting for you at the end and knowing the entire time he's trying his damnedest to do as bad or worse to your friends.

A year like that makes you grow as a person, even if as far as the rest of the universe was concerned, it was a matter of minutes, for you, it was a year just like that, so that's the perceptive and the effects you walk away with.

Course then again, that titans team will always be my favorite, something about the Chemistry of those characters at those stages in there lives always did hit the wright chord for me.

[Jayngfet]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm also under the impression that the 'Dark Age' of comics is now. :smallamused:

The "Dark age" is a really vaguely defined concept.

As far as metal ages go it's currently Gold-Silver-Bronze-Iron, with those being the 30's-40's, the 50's-60's, the 70's to 80's, and the Iron Age is somewhere around 1995 to about 2006 by my reckoning, though arguably you could say the Iron Age ended at the turn of the century.

The Dark Age on the other hand can technically refer to anything after the silver age, or anything from the 80's Millar and Moore comics onwards, or even just the 90's when a good deal of comics became darker. It's one of those terms like "the 90's" that people throw around to refer to a specific set of things that didn't originate in that particular era and arguably didn't even really define it.


Pretty much. :-P

I tend to harp on Geoff Johns for a whole lot of the stuff he's written here and elsewhere, but honestly the man just doesn't work well with continuity. I mean his body of work isn't that much better or worse than some others(like Gail Simone) but honestly he's the last person I'd want holding an editorial position, just because of how fast and loose he plays with continuity. Though it's kind of like getting into a fistfight with a kitten to complain about how bad Geoff "Rainbow Space Bugs everywhere" Johns can be with keeping things consistent.

[Man on Fire]

I love Planetary. Which started in ... *digs though box, three minutes later* ... 1999. Maybe that's too late for a 'Dark Age' comic.

When was this 'Dark Age' exactly? Late-80s 'til Mid-90s?

Depending on defition. Most people use Dark Age as either the name for the 90s, but others rather reffer to it from late 80s, specifingly date of publication of either Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen to either 1996, year in which Sandman ended and Kingdom Come was published, or 2000, when Ultimate Spider-Man has been launched.


Maybe it's just me, but I'm also under the impression that the 'Dark Age' of comics is now. :smallamused:

There are people who belive that, but they call it Iron Age - it started with publication of Crisis on the Infinite Earths in 1985 and is still going.

And if we're going by the definitions that say it didn't ended in 1996, then I want to throw in the Authority, which I always seen as rebuttal to Kingdom Come on many levels.

[The Troubadour]

A year like that makes you grow as a person, even if as far as the rest of the universe was concerned, it was a matter of minutes, for you, it was a year just like that, so that's the perceptive and the effects you walk away with.

True, but I meant "too soon" from the point of view of the readers, not the characters. :-)


Course then again, that titans team will always be my favorite, something about the Chemistry of those characters at those stages in there lives always did hit the wright chord for me.

I preferred them in "Young Justice", myself.


I tend to harp on Geoff Johns for a whole lot of the stuff he's written here and elsewhere, but honestly the man just doesn't work well with continuity.

The thing with Johns, if I understand it correctly, is that he's actually very good with continuity, but only with the issues he likes. So (for example) he'll know everything there is to know about the Busiek & Perez run on "Avengers", but almost nothing about any other run.
I've liked very few things he's done, but I especially dislike him because of the way he simply got rid of Fate (as opposed to Dr. Fate) in his JSA comic and how he's shown he really doesn't understand the character and mythos of Billy Batson / Captain Marvel.


And if we're going by the definitions that say it didn't ended in 1996, then I want to throw in the Authority, which I always seen as rebuttal to Kingdom Come on many levels.

Hmmm, I can see that. While Kingdom Come criticizes excessive violence and cynicism in comics and upholds that super-heroes should be more idealistic, the Authority kicks that in the head and says that in the real world, super-heroes who don't use their powers for actual change (which necessitates quite a bit of violence) are "poofy wankers".
Personally, I prefer Kingdom Come, but I liked the first twelve issues of the Authority. I think they're like an action movie: I didn't care much for the plot and characterization, but the action scenes were great.

[Eldan]

That's what Kingdom Come was about? I tried reading it, and all the time I just had the feeling that there had to be some level of meaning I wasn't seeing.

[Jayngfet]

The thing with Johns, if I understand it correctly, is that he's actually very good with continuity, but only with the issues he likes. So (for example) he'll know everything there is to know about the Busiek & Perez run on "Avengers", but almost nothing about any other run.
I've liked very few things he's done, but I especially dislike him because of the way he simply got rid of Fate (as opposed to Dr. Fate) in his JSA comic and how he's shown he really doesn't understand the character and mythos of Billy Batson / Captain Marvel.


He knows, he just doesn't care. His whole thing with Superboy was based on a theory he came up with when he was just a fan reading the comics. He obviously read enough superboy before that, he just didn't care if he was disregarding it. Likewise he'd removed some of Captain Marvel's recent development that he was obviously aware of, but just kind of disregarded.

The whole space bug and rainbow corps situation really made that clear. Instead of just having a bunch of new corps show up and replace the villains he didn't like, he had to force those villains to conform to the rainbow corps. Hence why the controllers were killed by Larfleeze, Amon Sur was suddenly a yellow lantern, and Fatality was suddenly a Star Sapphire. He'd obviously been reading about who those characters were, but he couldn't WAIT for the comic world to play by his rules so he could change it all around to his own liking. It's even worse if the villain was pre-90's, since he made the Predator go from a being explicitly without love into a being with nothing but love.


At this point I'm glad that most of my favorite alien lanterns HAVEN'T been reintroduced by Johns. Even just being background cameos or two page appearances usually means they kind of lose everything that made them great visually and writing wise.




Hmmm, I can see that. While Kingdom Come criticizes excessive violence and cynicism in comics and upholds that super-heroes should be more idealistic, the Authority kicks that in the head and says that in the real world, super-heroes who don't use their powers for actual change (which necessitates quite a bit of violence) are "poofy wankers".
Personally, I prefer Kingdom Come, but I liked the first twelve issues of the Authority. I think they're like an action movie: I didn't care much for the plot and characterization, but the action scenes were great.

I think Kingdom Come was kind of about the opposite, or a middle ground. Remember, things only got that bad because Superman REFUSED to take charge and didn't do anything. But on the other hand, the grimdark extreme heroes were ALSO wrong, because they took it too far and didn't know when to stop. If anything, Kingdom Come wasn't about being overly idealistic or doing whatever it takes, but about being wise enough to move forward without losing sight of what was important.

[Man on Fire]

So (for example) he'll know everything there is to know about the Busiek & Perez run on "Avengers", but almost nothing about any other run.

To be fair, he did apologize for his Avengers run.


Hmmm, I can see that. While Kingdom Come criticizes excessive violence and cynicism in comics and upholds that super-heroes should be more idealistic, the Authority kicks that in the head and says that in the real world, super-heroes who don't use their powers for actual change (which necessitates quite a bit of violence) are "poofy wankers".
Personally, I prefer Kingdom Come, but I liked the first twelve issues of the Authority. I think they're like an action movie: I didn't care much for the plot and characterization, but the action scenes were great.

I was thinking more about first 12 issues really. You see, when I once sat down and analized it, I noticed Authority took many of elements Kingdom Come criticised about 90s anti heroes and removed them. Kingdom Come potrayed that crowd as bunch of selfish egomaniacs who don't care about anything, except the money. Authority geniuqely care abotu the world and want to make it a better place. Kingdom Come showed 90s guys as so busy fighting each other they were ineffective against supervilains and even caused more harm than them. uthority have one of the better teamworks in the genre - they trust each other and never argue at all. Kingdom Come complaied that 90s Antiheroes cause horrifying amount of coraterall damage and get people killed. Authority are operating under goal of minimalizing coraterall damage to the point they take the fight to the enemy. However, removal of all those traits doesn't make them goody-two shoes like classic DC heroes, in fact, they may be more horrifyng and dangerous than 90s crowd ever was.

[Orrmundur]

The Maxx, definitely. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. It's VERY weird, especially late in the run, probably too weird for some, but I love it. It manages to deal with difficult emotional issues with a level of maturity almost never seen in superhero comics.

[JoshL]

Oh, man, The Maxx was awesome! The motion-comic treatment it got on MTV back in the day (based on the first arc) was pretty well done too...and I tend to dislike those things.

[The Troubadour]

I think Kingdom Come was kind of about the opposite, or a middle ground. Remember, things only got that bad because Superman REFUSED to take charge and didn't do anything.

True, but that's because the general populace applauded Mangog and his killing of the Joker. Superman gave up on the world, but that's because he felt the world had given up on itself.
I agree, though: I think part of KC's message is that it's not enough to simply believe in something, you have to stand for it.


However, removal of all those traits doesn't make them goody-two shoes like classic DC heroes, in fact, they may be more horrifyng and dangerous than 90s crowd ever was.

Hmmm, I see your point.

[Avilan the Grey]

True, but that's because the general populace applauded Mangog and his killing of the Joker.

Of course they would not have done that had the people in charge actually done their job and not let the man escape Arkham twice a week for 30 years after murdering hundreds of people for the lulz.

I know this a tangent, and a bit of a rant, but if either authoroties had wised up, or Batman shifted focus from Joker himself to the corrupt or inept people who let Joker and the rest escape all the time, this would never have happened.

If I lived in a town, or even a country, where the local serial killer escaped like clockwork and started killing again over and over and nobody did anything about it, I too would have eventually applauded ANYONE that did ANYTHING to actually stop the man.

[The Troubadour]

Of course they would not have done that had the people in charge actually done their job and not let the man escape Arkham twice a week for 30 years after murdering hundreds of people for the lulz.

Yeah, the whole Joker situation is pretty screwed up. It's part of the reason why I've basically given up on ongoing series; without the sense of closure that comes with an actual ending, the whole story feels meaningless to me.

[Metahuman1]

I always though it would be interesting to see a storyline were the Joker get's the death penalty listed at the front of the line for death row, breaks out, and Batman knows that the next time he hands him over it's effectively killing him.

Of course he does it anyway and Joker get's his insides cooked on a chair shaped electric high voltage grille and then that's it, but that would be a big part of what makes him interesting.


I also through it would make for some serious potential character development for Harley Quinn.



And if at some point down the line you really needed to do another joker story, just have an effective copy cat and Batman proves it's a copy cat the first time some of his DNA get's left at a crime scene by running a side by side comparison of the newly found DNA with the records he has of the original Joker's DNA.

[SteveMB]

I always though it would be interesting to see a storyline were the Joker get's the death penalty listed at the front of the line for death row, breaks out, and Batman knows that the next time he hands him over it's effectively killing him.

I remember something along those lines, except it turned out that Batman discovered that the Joker was innocent of that particular crime and had to clear him.

[SteveMB]

One I don't think was mentioned yet (at least I didn't find it in a quick search) was Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme, which (as far as I know off the top of my head) was the first serious treatment of the "superheroes decide to take over in order to fix society's problems" idea.

[Man on Fire]

I remember something along those lines, except it turned out that Batman discovered that the Joker was innocent of that particular crime and had to clear him.

Joker: Devil's Advocate


Yeah, the whole Joker situation is pretty screwed up. It's part of the reason why I've basically given up on ongoing series; without the sense of closure that comes with an actual ending, the whole story feels meaningless to me.

You know, there are ongoign series with set ending in mind, just way too far to call them mini or even maxiseries. Liek the Astounding Wolf-Man, who ran for 25 issues and could run longer, btu writer decided to end it.


One I don't think was mentioned yet (at least I didn't find it in a quick search) was Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme, which (as far as I know off the top of my head) was the first serious treatment of the "superheroes decide to take over in order to fix society's problems" idea.

Dunn oabout that, this series started in 1985, year before the earliest marking points of Dark Age. Through, if you go with Iron Age idea, it would work.

Speaking of which, when I first heard of it I thought it might be an answer to Alan Moore's Miracleman. Is there any merit to it or you wouldn't think of them as such?