How to overcome a nasty spell combo as a DM?

[flamewolf393]

First cast sleep on a creature.

Then cast this: {Scrubbed}
Instantly kill a willing target, no save. Sleeping creatures are automatically considered willing (which I always thought was bull... if anything being willing should be a knowing, conscious act)... So, kill a target for one will save and two level 1 spells.

Now on a related note. Are you allowed to lie about what spell you are casting to make them considered willing? If you convince them you are going to cast, for example, cure light wounds can you then turn around and cast the painless death instead? Are they only willing to the cure light wounds, or are they willing to the next spell you happen to cast? This would work nicely with charm person or suggestion ("You are wounded friend. Allow me to cast heal on you.")

[Randomguy]

Or you could just coup de grace them with a scythe and kill them with one will save and one level 1 spell.

[olentu]

So are you playing a game in the ghostwalk campaign setting. If not then just veto the spell since you are not playing a ghostwalk game.

[A_S]

Ways to overcome this combo as a DM:

1. Elves.
2. Constructs.
3. Undead.
4. Elementals.
5. Plants.
6. Oozes.
7. Enemies with high will saves.
8. Enemies with SR.
9. More than 4 HD worth of enemies.

Sleep + coup de grace (or Special Magic Coup De Grace, in this case) is a decent level 1 combat tactic, but there's a lot of things it doesn't work on.

[Immabozo]

Ways to overcome this combo as a DM:

1. Elves.
2. Constructs.
3. Undead.
4. Elementals.
5. Plants.
6. Oozes.
7. Enemies with high will saves.
8. Enemies with SR.
9. More than 4 HD worth of enemies.

Sleep + coup de grace (or Special Magic Coup De Grace, in this case) is a decent level 1 combat tactic, but there's a lot of things it doesn't work on.

Don't forget the trump card! DM Fiat!

[Tvtyrant]

Chain two or three encounters in a row. They are probably racing through spell slots, so either they will have to learn to be more conservative or they will spend a few rounds firing a crossbow.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, you can just veto the spell, just like you can veto chain-gating or infinite-wish shenanigans. It's within your jurisdiction as a DM to restrict materials which are unsuitable (or simply too strong) for the game you're running.

Or rule that consent for spells needs to be "active", that submitting to a spell's effects is a conscious choice, therefore sleeping characters still get their saves (which does cause other problems when you're trying to Teleport an unconscious ally out of a fight, for example).


As for the Sleep thing: Basically, if you get the guy to fail a Will save against Sleep, he's already lost and is at your mercy. You can CDG him (the preferred option IMO, since it's much more efficient), you can tie him up, cast more spells on him... he's done. Might as well be dead at that point.

[Sith_Happens]

Or you could just coup de grace them with a scythe and kill them with one will save and one level 1 spell.

Yeah, it's Sleep that's the problem here, not Painless Death. Killing people in their sleep generally isn't hard, this way is just the least messy.

[Kudaku]

The spell calls for a Willing target - though I haven't played 3.5 in a while I'd argue that a helpless target does not qualify as willing.

Edit: Wow, asleep targets count as willing for spell effects? I couldn't find that anywhere in d20srd.

Second edit: ah, targeting spells. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to list it there :smallsigh:. Erm, did some googling and found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-169543.html) which discusses unconscious and willing at length - however since the spell in question doesn't offer saves... Hm.

[TuggyNE]

The spell calls for a Willing target - though I haven't played 3.5 in a while I'd argue that a helpless target does not qualify as willing.

Edit: Wow, asleep targets count as willing for spell effects? I couldn't find that anywhere in d20srd.

Second edit: ah, targeting spells. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to list it there :smallsigh:. Erm, did some googling and found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-169543.html) which discusses unconscious and willing at length - however since the spell in question doesn't offer saves... Hm.

Helpless targets count as willing targets mostly so you can do stuff like teleporting an ally (or captured foe, as the case may be). Whether those use cases are actually enough to justify the general rule I'm not sure, but this (as mentioned) isn't really the worst abuse you could make of it.

[Kudaku]

Helpless targets count as willing targets mostly so you can do stuff like teleporting an ally (or captured foe, as the case may be). Whether those use cases are actually enough to justify the general rule I'm not sure, but this (as mentioned) isn't really the worst abuse you could make of it.

Indeed - the more I looked into it the more I realized it wasn't quite as brutal as I originally thought it was. My first thought was willing as in "willing to forego saves", which is entirely different.

[Gildedragon]

The spell is a cute quick CDG. Note the HD limit on sleep. Also it is good for someone that gets squicked out by slitting throats.

As to lying about spells: nope no can do. You can lie to have them lower SR and let you touch them, but not to forego their saves.

[olentu]

The spell is a cute quick CDG. Note the HD limit on sleep.

As to lying about spells: nope no can do. You can lie to have them lower SR and let you touch them, but not to forego their saves.

Not that the spell has a save in the first place.

[Slipperychicken]

As to lying about spells: nope no can do. You can lie to have them lower SR and let you touch them, but not to forego their saves.

Characters can choose to forgo their saves.


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Of course, this continues to get powerful at higher levels, for things like deep slumber (Core), Endless Slumber (No HD cap, Spell Compendium), and others still exist. I can see death for a chained lullaby/sleep effect+quicked That spell.

[Gildedragon]

Characters can choose to forgo their saves.

They can. But not if the spell is being tricksied upon them.
That is to say, they "know" if the spell is harmful or not after its been cast and then choose to willingly fail the save or not.
Not 100% sure where this ruling is from but I remember finding it when researching a similar "bluff enemies into thinking I heal them" shtick.


Not that the spell has a save in the first place.

It's in response to flamewolf's second question.

[olentu]

It's in response to flamewolf's second question.

Ah, you mean the one about whether you can trick them into being willing so as to cast a spell that has no save on them.

[flamewolf393]

Thanks guys. My overall opinion is that since it is only a level 1 spell, I would just DM says that there is no way to munchkin this period. You can only use it with full, conscious, untricked, un-charmed willingness.

If it was higher level then sure have fun with that, but not for a level 1 spell.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Attack the caster before he finishes casting sleep because the casting time is One Round not one standard action or one full-round action. So the spell doesn't take effect until the next round giving you plenty of time to whack the caster.

[Twilight Jack]

Yeah, there's nothing being done to a sleeping target by painless death that couldn't be more easily accomplished with a sharp knife or a thick pillow. If it's creating a problem in your game, then the problem is sleep, not the follow up.

[olentu]

Thanks guys. My overall opinion is that since it is only a level 1 spell, I would just DM says that there is no way to munchkin this period. You can only use it with full, conscious, untricked, un-charmed willingness.

If it was higher level then sure have fun with that, but not for a level 1 spell.

Eh, I would still just ban the spell, rather then adding a complicated qualifier, for consistency purposes, but whatever walks your ghost.

[eggynack]

Thanks guys. My overall opinion is that since it is only a level 1 spell, I would just DM says that there is no way to munchkin this period. You can only use it with full, conscious, untricked, un-charmed willingness.

If it was higher level then sure have fun with that, but not for a level 1 spell.
Eh, I think you might be overstating things a bit. Painless death is nice once you've cast sleep on your enemy, but it's worthless the rest of the time. If a first level wizard uses this combo, then he's using up the majority of his daily resources to kill a single enemy. It's not even a very good combo. Sleep only works on up to 4 HD of enemies, and against an enemy who's asleep for at least ten rounds, even a barefisted wizard can probably get the kill. Sleep also has a saving throw, so your assessment of the combo of being a no save kill is inaccurate. Sleep is an absolutely brutal spell if you get it off, no matter what you do afterwards.

[Gildedragon]

Ah, you mean the one about whether you can trick them into being willing so as to cast a spell that has no save on them.

Yeah, or one with a Dave (wtf autocorrect?) save for that matter.
Concious + willing needs full disclosure.
Painless death isn't bad as is. It emulates a cdg and I personally think it isn't bad for an assassin with moral qualms.

[olentu]

Yeah, or one with a Dave (wtf autocorrect?) save for that matter.
Concious + willing needs full disclosure.
Painless death isn't bad as is. It emulates a cdg and I personally think it isn't bad for an assassin with moral qualms.

I can not understand your meaning but clearly you must have some reason to keep bringing up the save rules. Perhaps you can rephrase.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, it's Sleep that's the problem here, not Painless Death. Killing people in their sleep generally isn't hard, this way is just the least messy.

And wastes a spell on one target that's basically dead anyway which could have been used for a color spray or sleep or grease or something that would have a greater effect in general.

[Invader]

It should be noted there's a difference between unconscious and asleep. You're considered a willing target if you're unconscious (as per the srd) not if you're asleep which it doesn't talk about at all.

[Slipperychicken]

It should be noted there's a difference between unconscious and asleep. You're considered a willing target if you're unconscious (as per the srd) not if you're asleep which it doesn't talk about at all.

I have difficulty imagining the kind of tool who would rule that "unconscious" and "asleep" are separate conditions.

It's up there with drown-healing and taking actions while dead (and before you smartasses say "undead", you know what I mean).

[nedz]

I have difficulty imagining the kind of tool who would rule that "unconscious" and "asleep" are separate conditions.

It's up there with drown-healing and taking actions while dead (and before you smartasses say "undead", you know what I mean).

That would be the SRD then

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. ...

Unconscious

Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
It doesn't define sleeping other than as a sub-type of Helpless. Unconscious is a separate condition, which is also a sub-type of Helpless.

[Invader]

I have difficulty imagining the kind of tool who would rule that "unconscious" and "asleep" are separate conditions.

It's up there with drown-healing and taking actions while dead (and before you smartasses say "undead", you know what I mean).

You'd have to unless you'd also rule that you can just wake up from being unconscious.

Unconscious specifically states it's from having - 1 to -9 hps or non lethal damage in excess of hps. That's not what sleep is.

[eggynack]

You'd have to unless you'd also rule that you can just wake up from being unconscious.

Unconscious specifically states it's from having - 1 to -9 hps or non lethal damage in excess of hps. That's not what sleep is.
Actually, I think you're right from a logical perspective too. Wikipedia has a definition for unconsciousness that says, "in a mental state that involves complete or near-complete lack of responsiveness to people and other environmental stimuli," and that's the definition I'm familiar with. Sleep explicitly allows responsiveness to people and environmental stimuli, as it says, "Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature." Thus, sleep doesn't cause unconsciousness. Your claim is also borne out by the fact that the condition of unconsciousness is being, "Knocked out and helpless," while sleep merely causes you to be helpless. Thus, if being unconscious is a necessary condition for this combo to work, then the combo does not work.

[Emmerask]

First cast sleep on a creature.

Then cast this: http://dndtools.eu/spells/ghostwalk--94/painless-death--1375/
Instantly kill a willing target, no save. Sleeping creatures are automatically considered willing (which I always thought was bull... if anything being willing should be a knowing, conscious act)... So, kill a target for one will save and two level 1 spells.

Now on a related note. Are you allowed to lie about what spell you are casting to make them considered willing? If you convince them you are going to cast, for example, cure light wounds can you then turn around and cast the painless death instead? Are they only willing to the cure light wounds, or are they willing to the next spell you happen to cast? This would work nicely with charm person or suggestion ("You are wounded friend. Allow me to cast heal on you.")

If your players are jerks about it, take the sleep spell by the letter:

If the target of a sleep spell is upright when it is cast they fall asleep, fall down on the ground, and wake up instantly since this would be the equivalent of a slap.

sleep now only works for enemies who are already prone, for everyone else its a disarm + waste an action for standing up pretty much^^

[GoddessSune]

Thanks guys. My overall opinion is that since it is only a level 1 spell, I would just DM says that there is no way to munchkin this period. You can only use it with full, conscious, untricked, un-charmed willingness.


Well......

An unconscious character is always willing.While both being unconscious and sleeping make characters helpless , nothing (except common sense :smallwink:) says that a sleeping character is unconscious. (Indeed, the entry for "helpless" mentions them separately, and "unconscious" entry only speaks of unconsciousness as a result of damage.)

So, by the rules, a sleeping character is not unconscious.

The main difference is that you can (almost always) wake someone up from the asleep condition, while the only way to awaken someone from unconsciousness is to restore their hit points to positive. In the rare instances of spells and effects causing unconsciousness instead of sleep, the effect itself tells you specifically how to cure it (or, alternatively, it has a duration after which the unconscious character regains consciousness automatically).

You might also want to check the 3.0 rules as that Ghostwalk spell is a 3.0 spell. Does the 3.0 rules even have that ''unconscious targets are willing'' line (I don't have to books nearby, but checked online and did not see it in the 3.0 SRD.)

But as this spell combo relies on sleep...really how bad can it be? Even with just the normal sleep spell foes are helpless. And it's not so hard to kill a helpless foe. So they can kill some mooks every day....it does not seem like such a big deal.