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Belladonna Took
2013-05-27, 12:52 AM
I am considering running a campaign but I am having trouble deciding on a starting point.

Background: This is a mainly dwarf inhabited island, ruled over by one king who is approaching his death, and believes he will be assassinated. I want this to be a game based around politics but with some adventuring thrown in.

One thing that needs to happen is that the king requests the PC's to investigate rumors of his assassination. They will almost certainly fail, because the assassination plans are actually three separate plans, requiring them to split up to even find out about all of the plans. From here on I am using the assumption that they fail. He asks the PC's because they have been his body guards for the last few years of his reign and he has come to rely on them rather heavily. They will find out that people have been poisoning him for years and he will die within two years even if he survives the assassinations. I want them to feel as though they have failed him, but I need this feeling to not corrupt the decision they make very soon after.

The problem for this campaign is that I want them to choose a new king. But one of the choices is the son of this king. I think I know my players pretty well and I am pretty sure they will choose him because they will feel that they owe the king this, and will disregard all real information about him. I want them to choose someone based his opponents, his opinions and his previous actions so that they have to live with their choice for the rest of the campaign.

My idea is thus: Begin with the characters choosing the king, then have a "flashback" to when the old king asked them to investigate the plans. But I am concerned that my players will be angry with me for denying them this information. Either they will be really angry or they will be exceedingly intrigued and excited for this campaign

TL;DR: Should I go in chronological order or start after one rather big event in order to have my characters choose a more unbiased successor to the assassinated king and have a flashback to the event right afterward?

If you were one of my characters would you be angry or intrigued if I began with the choosing of a new king and flashed back to the old king asking you to stop his assassination?

TuggyNE
2013-05-27, 01:02 AM
I think I'd prefer getting the chance to deal with it; who knows, perhaps I'd come up with some crazy scheme. I am not a big fan of failure that's saddled on me that I didn't actually do.

However, some people might like to skip, I dunno.

Belladonna Took
2013-05-27, 02:29 AM
I think I'd prefer getting the chance to deal with it; who knows, perhaps I'd come up with some crazy scheme. I am not a big fan of failure that's saddled on me that I didn't actually do.

However, some people might like to skip, I dunno.

I'd still be going back to it, and they could succeed, but he would die within a few years anyway, he is exceedingly old. So I don't plan to deny them the chance to succeed, it is just rather unlikely. They'll still get to deal with it though. And get a handsome reward if they succeed lol.

Ozfer
2013-05-27, 12:50 PM
snip

I personally dislike the whole, "Flashback" trope in RPGs. It makes me feel exceedingly powerless to affect the world, as the future has already been ordained. I would go in chronological order, and hope that the players put some real thought into their decision.

Instead of of having the players receive negative information about the king from other NPC's (That for all they know is false), simply have him say and do things that the players probably don't agree with.

Water_Bear
2013-05-27, 05:19 PM
I like the idea, though I do have one quibble; the poisoning. If the PCs have been bodyguards for years, they really ought to at least have the chance to have noticed him being poisoned under their noses. And it doesn't seem to add anything by it's presence. Even just changing it to him being so old he's about to die or having some weird curse or unusual magical disease or persistent wound keeps the two-year time limit while avoiding making the PCs look like doofuses through no fault of their own.

With the son... I've read the post a few times and I'm still not sure what you're saying. Do you not want them to pick him, but a member of the King's opposition instead? Do you want them to pick him, because he's behind the killings? To put themselves on the throne? Something else?

As for the Flashback, my general rule is this; do not set up situations where time paradoxes can occur. They're obnoxious and tend to end the game right then and there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APH1LIJaq7A#t=0m15s). Maybe start them at the coronation two years from then? That way, it's either right after the King died of natural causes or a year or two after the assassination, enough time that blood will have cooled and people can refer to the death in a cryptically vague way without it being completely out of place.

Belladonna Took
2013-05-27, 08:06 PM
I personally dislike the whole, "Flashback" trope in RPGs. It makes me feel exceedingly powerless to affect the world, as the future has already been ordained. I would go in chronological order, and hope that the players put some real thought into their decision.

Instead of of having the players receive negative information about the king from other NPC's (That for all they know is false), simply have him say and do things that the players probably don't agree with.

Thank you for the input, and if i do go in chronological order I really hope that they will make a decision based on information and not feelings.


Even just changing it to him being so old he's about to die or having some weird curse or unusual magical disease or persistent wound keeps the two-year time limit while avoiding making the PCs look like doofuses through no fault of their own.

I was actually considering making it some strange magical disease and incorporating that into some of the adventures, but I wasn't sure how to best go about making it not seem like an assassination in the players eyes. I actually came up with an idea for this yesterday, and I think it will actually make the characters more invested in choosing the correct successor, who may or may not be the kings son, so I think that is what I will be doing.


With the son... I've read the post a few times and I'm still not sure what you're saying.

I don't want them to choose the son simply because he IS the previous kings son and they worked for the previous king. Which based on my PC's and how they've played their previous games I think it's rather likely that they would do so.


Maybe start them at the coronation two years from then?

I had planned on doing this, though I don't think I made that clear. But yes I planned to have the coronation two years after the king makes them investigate his possible assassinations. Simply because I dislike possible time paradoxes as well.

Also thank you for all of the input :D

Joe the Rat
2013-05-28, 10:44 AM
I would make it clear from the outset that the players will be choosing a new king, and that you will be playing the period from their dealings with the old king through the events leading up to this decision. It's like the teaser of a TV show having some momentous and rather serious event, then after the intro screen/comemrcial, you come in at an earlier point ("Two years before" in subtitles). You are also welcome to make the flash forward a divination or prophetic dream.

If the king is sufficiently old, "Natural causes" is on the list of possible ways for him to die, along with poisoning, daggers, explosions, soul jar-wielding evil mirror doppelgangers, etc. Spell it out before play begins that this king will end up dead at some point. As they will be the King-makers, part of the play is not just foiling assassinations, but finding out who is behind it, and why, and how that might play into their decisions. This is also where they will be interacting with the heir-candidates, letting the players/characters learn about these people, and help inform who would make a decent king.

A couple of quibble points, clarifications, and wacky ideas:
Clearly establish that Dwarf rule is not a strict linear affair. If bloodlines are important, have all of the candidates being out of the same family: one son, but perhaps several (younger) brothers, sisters, nephews & nieces, perhaps an adopted family member - not related by blood but eligible by the laws of succession, etc.

Have the players make the choice after you play the flashback (or more accurately, you open on a flash-forward, and then begin play). Also, do not lock yourself into a two-year window. If they fail all attempts early, the king dies early. If they stop all the plots, the king may live for quite a while. If they fake the king's death and abscond with him so that he can live out a peaceful "retirement," or the whole coronation ends up being key to trapping the arch-conspirators, then why not? All that has to happen is that at some point in the future, something that looks like X event happens.

Why are bodyguards choosing the king? This ought to be the kind of thing that councils and advisors are for. I can see the players as part of the king's inner circle (agents of the Hand of the King or some such), where his safety is part of their purview, but not their sole duty. This also gives them a little more position from which to leverage information, but not necessarily so high that they cannot be denied things. Is this an all-dwarf campaign, or is there some rationale for outsiders playing an official role in the games of succession?

The future characters should have one significant difference about them. A new haircut, a particular magic item or weapon, one of them is missing, one of them has an eyepatch... stuff like that. You don't have to explain it - just set up the image, and let play and player machinations set up the picture of the event. Injuries, curses, honors, marriages... maybe the eyepatch is a magic item. Maybe the missing character is setting a trap. Maybe the missing character is the one to be crowned. Have some ideas, but let the player actions drive the how and the why behind the future glimpsed.

00dlez
2013-05-28, 11:48 PM
You could just narrate the last few months of the kings life as the opening to the campaign. Given how the plot railroads to that end anyway, you could just fast forward a bit and get to the "fun part" of your campaign - life after the new king

Explain how the PCs, despite their best efforts, uncovered the plots too late, discovered the plans, foiled some, unable to foil others - however you want to paint the picture.

Then enter the PCs. They start in a room, food and wine abound, and they have their task to debate amongst themselves and chose the new king. You can take this time to "remind" them of the candidates pros and cons, answer any questions they have, and fill in any details you missed before.

TuggyNE
2013-05-29, 12:33 AM
Then enter the PCs. They start in a room, food and wine abound, and they have their task to debate amongst themselves and chose the new king. You can take this time to "remind" them of the candidates pros and cons, answer any questions they have, and fill in any details you missed before.

And all of the food is poisoned, in case you were wondering.

:xykon:

Sebastrd
2013-05-29, 02:09 PM
Trust your players.

As a DM, it's your job to present the players with intriguing events and interesting options, then get out of the way.

If you are worried your players won't pick the options you want them to, you're doing it wrong.

Belladonna Took
2013-05-29, 09:12 PM
Why are bodyguards choosing the king? This ought to be the kind of thing that councils and advisors are for. I can see the players as part of the king's inner circle (agents of the Hand of the King or some such), where his safety is part of their purview, but not their sole duty. This also gives them a little more position from which to leverage information, but not necessarily so high that they cannot be denied things. Is this an all-dwarf campaign, or is there some rationale for outsiders playing an official role in the games of succession?

They each have one vote out of the 9 who get to vote for the new king, so their support will practically ensure their choices victory. The people who get to vote are his six advisers, his three main body guards and if the king is still alive when the vote happens he gets one vote as well.


The future characters should have one significant difference about them. A new haircut, a particular magic item or weapon, one of them is missing, one of them has an eyepatch... stuff like that. You don't have to explain it - just set up the image, and let play and player machinations set up the picture of the event. Injuries, curses, honors, marriages... maybe the eyepatch is a magic item. Maybe the missing character is setting a trap. Maybe the missing character is the one to be crowned. Have some ideas, but let the player actions drive the how and the why behind the future glimpsed.

I REALLY like this idea, and will definitely use this, thank you!


Explain how the PCs, despite their best efforts, uncovered the plots too late, discovered the plans, foiled some, unable to foil others - however you want to paint the picture.

Unfortunately I agree with tuggyne on this point, and that I need to at least give the characters a CHANCE to succeed, even though the chance is slim.


And all of the food is poisoned, in case you were wondering.

Well of course!


If you are worried your players won't pick the options you want them to, you're doing it wrong.

I'm not worried that they will pick one I don't want them to, because it doesn't really matter to me. I am concerned they will choose one for the wrong reason.

Actually though I have come up with a final solution to this problem. What I am doing is I plan to show them all of the candidates and then, before they choose, but after they have probably settled on someone they prefer, go into the flashback with the king. This way they will still have all the information first, but they will also have those emotional experiences that they need to make the decision as the character! I think this is a really great middle ground and I hope you guys agree! Once again I thank everyone for your input and ideas, they really helped. I'm still open to any more advice you have though.