Alter self, polmorph and shapechange how to fix them?

[Devronq]

So i hear people say that the ability to polymorph is extremely powerful to the point of being to good. So i have the following questions.

1. Is alter self ok or is it extremely powerful as well?

2. What does unique creature mean in the description of shapechange? Does it mean i can turn into a red dragon but i cant turn into firkraag the red dragon?

3. What exactly makes these spells so powerful?

4. If there a fix to make them more reasonable?

Thank you in advance

[Juntao112]

Alter Self is borderline broken. Polymorph and Shapechange should be eliminated entirely.

[CRtwenty]

2. What does unique creature mean in the description of shapechange? Does it mean i can turn into a red dragon but i cant turn into firkraag the red dragon?

Yes. It also keeps you from turning into singular creatures like the Tarrasque.

[Curmudgeon]

Fix to make them more reasonable:

To take on any shape, the spellcaster must have personally seen and identified a living example creature, confirmed with successful Spot and Knowledge checks. No carry-overs from some other DM's game: you start fresh in the campaign you're playing in.

[CRtwenty]

Fix to make them more reasonable:

To take on any shape, the spellcaster must have personally seen and identified a living example creature, confirmed with successful Spot and Knowledge checks. No carry-overs from some other DM's game: you start fresh in the campaign you're playing in.

"Animorphs" style then? That actually makes things pretty reasonable. Requiring you to use a piece of the creature in question as a focus would help too.

[tyckspoon]

"Animorphs" style then? That actually makes things pretty reasonable. Requiring you to use a piece of the creature in question as a focus would help too.

It does cause another problem where you have to start auditing the creatures you are willing to use against the party because having them fight one becomes tantamount to giving them permission to turn into one. Kind of a drag for encounter design.

[Immabozo]

"Animorphs" style then? That actually makes things pretty reasonable. Requiring you to use a piece of the creature in question as a focus would help too.

that is a quite good fix, although it requires more paperwork on an already paperwork heavy class 8(

[olentu]

It does cause another problem where you have to start auditing the creatures you are willing to use against the party because having them fight one becomes tantamount to giving them permission to turn into one. Kind of a drag for encounter design.

Also, depending on the players, it may be a good idea to prepare for some monster hunting.

[georgie_leech]

Also, depending on the players, it may be a good idea to prepare for some monster hunting.

That could be a pretty decent plot hook, actually. Hunting down a rare and powerful creature because it's the only obvious way to match the BBEG in power or something.

[CRtwenty]

That could be a pretty decent plot hook, actually. Hunting down a rare and powerful creature because it's the only obvious way to match the BBEG in power or something.

Exactly. Players who want to turn into something powerful would probably be willing to spend an adventure hunting it down and capturing it for study/samples. DMs are able to audit what can be transformed into, get free plot hooks, and don't even have the change most of the mechanics of the spell. Seems like a great houserule fix to me.

[olentu]

That could be a pretty decent plot hook, actually. Hunting down a rare and powerful creature because it's the only obvious way to match the BBEG in power or something.

Oh it certainly can be woven into a campaign in a positive way, but not all DMs are skilled at doing such things on the fly. Advance preparation may be a good idea.

[TuggyNE]

That could be a pretty decent plot hook, actually. Hunting down a rare and powerful creature because it's the only obvious way to match the BBEG in power or something.

*coughgatecough*

[Curmudgeon]

It does cause another problem where you have to start auditing the creatures you are willing to use against the party because having them fight one becomes tantamount to giving them permission to turn into one.
Not necessarily.
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place. If the Wizard fails their initial Spot score, they could be in combat before they've had a look at the creature, and thus incapable of using "take 10" for their one and only Knowledge check to ID it. Also note that I specified a living example; once they're out of combat usually the creature's dead and it's just an object rather than a viable example.

[CRtwenty]

*coughgatecough*

Well yeah. But most characters who have just gained access to Polymorph aren't going to have access to Gate. And Gate still has some limitations on what you can call with it.

[TuggyNE]

Well yeah. But most characters who have just gained access to Polymorph aren't going to have access to Gate. And Gate still has some limitations on what you can call with it.

It doesn't limit shapechange much, gate actually has no limits on what you can try to call (only what you can force to come through and obey you, which isn't really needed when you can just take a look through the gate), and there are other calling spells at lower levels that can do quite a bit on their own (such as lesser planar binding/ally the level after polymorph).

Still, it would be idle to pretend it doesn't at least limit things a little. Whether the extra bookkeeping is worth it is an open question.

[olentu]

Not necessarily. If the Wizard fails their initial Spot score, they could be in combat before they've had a look at the creature, and thus incapable of using "take 10" for their one and only Knowledge check to ID it. Also note that I specified a living example; once they're out of combat usually the creature's dead and it's just an object rather than a viable example.

DC 10 + the party's HD versus 1 + party's HD + 3 + miscellaneous bonuses. I suppose it could be a bit of a problem should the character not have invested in the appropriate knowledge skill but otherwise it seems rather easy to come up with the difference in skill bonuses.

[Devronq]

Ok what if it required that you have seen the creature before and identified it(spot knowledge whatever), also you require a part of that creature (hair, scales, bones whatever) and you cannot have acquired that part from a creature that was summoned in any way such as gate, summon monster, binding w/e... would that make it fair?

[Frosty]

Wouldn't an easier solution be just to nerf the bonuses that Polymorph and Alter Self gives you? Like instead of replacing ability scores, it merely gives you bonuses? And you don't get all the (Ex) abilities of your new form. Instead you are eligible to get (Ex) abilities on your new form if they are part of the DM-approved list of (Ex) abilities that the DM has deemed to not be broken for that spell level?

[chaos_redefined]

Also, you just gave them access to everything on their summon list still. From what I understand (never really having abused it myself), polymorph is powerful for the versatility it provides. Not only is it a combat spell, it also can give you a fly/burrow/etc... speed, racial skill bonuses, racial feats, etc...

The easiest way to balance it is to say that it doesn't exist, and use the polymorph spells from complete mage/scoundrel. If more are required, you can make them on the fly, the hardest bit to determine is the level.

[Devronq]

Wouldn't an easier solution be just to nerf the bonuses that Polymorph and Alter Self gives you? Like instead of replacing ability scores, it merely gives you bonuses? And you don't get all the (Ex) abilities of your new form. Instead you are eligible to get (Ex) abilities on your new form if they are part of the DM-approved list of (Ex) abilities that the DM has deemed to not be broken for that spell level?

I like the idea but isnt this alot of paper work?

[Devronq]

Also, you just gave them access to everything on their summon list still. From what I understand (never really having abused it myself), polymorph is powerful for the versatility it provides. Not only is it a combat spell, it also can give you a fly/burrow/etc... speed, racial skill bonuses, racial feats, etc...

The easiest way to balance it is to say that it doesn't exist, and use the polymorph spells from complete mage/scoundrel. If more are required, you can make them on the fly, the hardest bit to determine is the level.

I have the books but what do these spells do and what are they called?

[Frosty]

I like the idea but isnt this alot of paper work?
No, the work is already done for you. Here are some examples:
Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self)
Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph)

For example, Alter Self can only give you LLV, Darkvision, Scent, or a Swim speed (30ft or the form's default swim speed, whichever is lower). You also gain a small stat boost.

[Devronq]

No, the work is already done for you. Here are some examples:
Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self)
Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph)

For example, Alter Self can only give you LLV, Darkvision, Scent, or a Swim speed (30ft or the form's default swim speed, whichever is lower). You also gain a small stat boost.

Ok i thought something much more complicated like each different creature grants different bonuses but thats simple hmm i have the pathfinder book i should really read it :P

[Frosty]

PF doesn't solve everything, but the nerfing of polymorph spells is something they did absolutely right. They also nerfed Wildshape in the same manner, and combined with a few nerfs to their spells Druids aren't god-tier anymore. IIRC, Summon Nature's Ally was nerfed.

[TuggyNE]

Ok what if it required that you have seen the creature before and identified it(spot knowledge whatever), also you require a part of that creature (hair, scales, bones whatever) and you cannot have acquired that part from a creature that was summoned in any way such as gate, summon monster, binding w/e... would that make it fair?

Gate and binding are not summons. :smalltongue:

[olentu]

PF doesn't solve everything, but the nerfing of polymorph spells is something they did absolutely right. They also nerfed Wildshape in the same manner, and combined with a few nerfs to their spells Druids aren't god-tier anymore. IIRC, Summon Nature's Ally was nerfed.

Eh, personally I find their nerf made the spells rather boring generic buffs. I preferred the style of the late 3.5 polymorphing spells even though they are perhaps a bigger nerf should I remember my polymorph subschool correctly.

[Chronos]

Quoth Devronq:

I have the books but what do these spells do and what are they called?There are a bunch of different spells. Basically, they split up Polymorph into many different spells, one for turning into each form. So, for instance, there's Trollshape, which specifically turns you into a troll (and nothing else), or Dragonshape, which specifically turns you into a dragon. This doesn't take away any capabilities, but it does mean that you can't get all that versatility out of a single spell. You have to anticipate what you'll need enough that you can pick the right form in advance.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've been considering a houserule that, when the spell is prepared, the creature type must be chosen. So, for example, a wizard wouldn't prepare Alter Self, but rather Alter Self: Troglodyte.

The spells are still fairly powerful, but they lose a lot of their insane flexibility by forcing prepared casters to make the choice way ahead of time, rather than being able to choose whatever creature is necessary on the fly.

Spontaneous casters wouldn't have this restriction, most likely, to help bridge the gap between them and arcane casters.

[Eldan]

Alter Self as written is just too versatile. It combines about half a dozen other spells of the same level into one. It gives you a stat bonus like [Animal's Ability], it can give you flight, which is normally third level, it can give you a better armour bonus than many other defensive spells of the same level, and a wide, wide variety of utility boni.

[Thiyr]

It does cause another problem where you have to start auditing the creatures you are willing to use against the party because having them fight one becomes tantamount to giving them permission to turn into one. Kind of a drag for encounter design.

Same problem with people playing necromancers, except those add issues by slowing down play as well. Honestly, I like the Dragonshape/Trollshape/etc. solution. You just don't need to have each of them take up a space in a book as a separate spell. As someone else suggested in a different regard, just have it be Alter Self as a single "spell" that you need to learn multiple times for each creature. Want a new one? not only do you need to find the creature, but you have to research the spell. If you don't know the creature, get it off a scroll from someone else (and hope they gave you what you wanted). Puts a notable time delay on it, if nothing else. If the DM wants to make it harder, add in reagents from finding multiple creatures or some such for the research of it. When it kicks up to polymorph/shapechange you get more power out of it, letting you turn into more potent things, giving you more abilities, etc.

[Juntao112]

Alter Self as written is just too versatile. It combines about half a dozen other spells of the same level into one. It gives you a stat bonus like [Animal's Ability]

Wait, what?

[Jack_Simth]

So i hear people say that the ability to polymorph is extremely powerful to the point of being to good. So i have the following questions.

1. Is alter self ok or is it extremely powerful as well?

It's pretty bad.


2. What does unique creature mean in the description of shapechange? Does it mean i can turn into a red dragon but i cant turn into firkraag the red dragon?
Something like that. Basically it's a tool the DM can use so that the last campaign's BBEG isn't available as a shapechange form. What constitutes unique is not clearly defined.


3. What exactly makes these spells so powerful?

The combinatorial explosion, partly, but also the open-ended and high-end nature of the beasts. Alter self, for instance, can get you more natural armor than Barkskin can... with the same duration, at the same level... by picking your alter self form correctly. It can ALSO grant you a swim speed, fly speed, et cetera. It can replace quite a few spells of around the same level, for longer, and do the job better. They also tend not to have much in he way of drawbacks - this is a problem.


4. If there a fix to make them more reasonable?

I'm familiar with three basic routes for handling them that have a reasonable chance of success:
1) Variant Summoning (WotC tried this, a little - see the Planar Exchange line): When you turn into the beast, you put your character sheet away (so the rogue polymorphed into a hydra doesn't get to use sneak attack for the duration, the polymorphed wizard can't cast spells, and so on), and use the monster manual entry for the beast (minus problematic abilities, such as spells and anything that would cost XP if it were a spell - this is IN ADDITION TO the limitations of the spells as they already exist - so you don't get Ex special qualities of the beast with Polymorph, for instance). Toss in some damage translation, change the limits to be based on relative CR rather than relative HD, and you're set. You're trading out one PC for a slightly-reduced critter of a slightly lower CR. This can be useful, but won't usually be overpowering.

2) Specific List of Forms. (WotC also dabbled in this solution via single-list) Polymorph doesn't exist... but you have Dragonshape, Trollshape, et cetera, each of which gives you a specific list (as small as one) of critters you can be, and lists specific effects of turning into each. When you've got things locked down to a fixed list, you can balance based on the specific creatures, rather than having to balance based on every creature ever printed.

3) Mostly Illusion (this is mostly the Pathfinder solution). You don't turn into a dragon. You make yourself look like a dragon, and pick X number of buffs, magnitude Y, thematically from a fixed list of what the specific spell used can do. So you might have a 'Polymorph' spell that says you pick three options from the following list if you can justify the creature you 'turned into' having them:
{table]Fly 30 (good)
Fly 60 (average)
Fly 90 (clumsy)
Burrow 10 feet
Swim 30 feet
+4 Enhancement to Strength
+4 Enhancement to Dexterity
+4 Enhancement to Constitution
Size change of up to 2 Size Categories either direction
Primary Natural Attack 1d6 (modified based on size - 1d6 assumes medium)
2 Secondary Natural Attacks Attacks 1d4 (modified based on size - 1d4 assumes medium)
+4 enhancement bonus to natural armor
Constrict 1d6 (modified based on size - 1d6 assumes medium)
Improved Grab
Rend 1d6 (requires 2 secondary natural attacks, modified based on size - 1d6 assumes medium)[/table] (note that this is just an off-the-cuff example assuming a 4th level spell slot for minutes/level; it'd need playtesting)

And, of course, these things can be combined in various ways.

[Gullintanni]

One fix I have for Alter Self//Polymorph//Shapechange is that it grants access to only one form, requires you to encounter the form and then, adding Curmudgeon's suggestion, a knowledge check to identify.

I like the versatility of the Polymorph spells, so I thought in order to achieve that versatility, each new form acquired demands you to scribe the spell again. So a sorcerer or a wizard would have:

Alter Self: Troglodyte.

If they wanted:

Alter Self: Half-Orc

They would need to use a spell known or scribe the spell a second time in their spellbook. Requiring encounter and identification of course. Full list casters like Clerics who somehow got one of these spells on their list would only ever have access to one form, since they can't learn new spells, with the exception of researching a new spell.