Taxes

[Jon_Dahl]

I'd like some verisimilitude advice on taxes.

In my game, only people with permanent residence and property are taxed. My players have never had their PCs taxed, but now they are planning to buy property from the capital. Just a small house in the city centre. The overall value of the house is 2,000 gp (an inflated price, due to the location). I have always presented taxation in my game as inefficient and unmodern.

The way I see it, I have four options:
1. They pay 200 gp per year as property taxes for the house.
2. They pay 200 gp per year as property taxes for the house and also an estimated 10% of their yearly income.
3. Inspectors will evaluate fixed assets and property every year. Only assets that are clearly fixed and plainly seen are evaluated, such as animals, furniture and large pieces of art. Taxes equal 10% of the worth of the fixed assets and property.
4. The PCs need to report all their possession. 10% of the worth of the reported wealth is collected as taxes once per year. It's an honor system.

I was thinking that I'd use the method #3. Every year inspectors come, they take a few minutes to look around, most of the time they will not bother to enter the house. They'll only tax fixed assets.

[CRtwenty]

Sounds fine to me. Most normal cities aren't going to have the resources to audit an adventuring party to find out their real worth, so assessing a tax based on the property they actualy own within the city seems fair.

[Fyermind]

10% of property value is high enough to cause distaste among the wealthy unless it is directed unreasonably against the poor or is done very roughly as you have indicated. I like your idea of having a tax collector walk past once a year and write down a number that looks decent from the outside.

I posit this should happen unless they have specific dealings with the royalty. If they attract attention they should probably be properly audited and them either have the government offer to exempt them in exchange for some service, or tax them according to their true property value.

[TuggyNE]

#3 fits pretty well with medieval tax practices, from what I know (Domesday Book, etc), so it should be fine. It's also not horrendously annoying, since the PCs can basically adjust how much they want to pay taxes on.

[Emperor Tippy]

What level are the PC's?

Because trying to get money from murder hobos tends to be rarely worth it. I've seen PC's bring down a continent spanning empire simply because it had the audacity to try and tax them.

[Jon_Dahl]

What level are the PC's?

Because trying to get money from murder hobos tends to be rarely worth it. I've seen PC's bring down a continent spanning empire simply because it had the audacity to try and tax them.

5th to 7th.
I guess the tax collector will be extra polite after realising their murder hobo status.

[Frosty]

I've seen PC's bring down a continent spanning empire simply because it had the audacity to try and tax them.Were you in that game? :smallwink:

[Emperor Tippy]

5th to 7th.
I guess the tax collector will be extra polite after realising their murder hobo status.

Hmm, so probably close to the deadliest people in the kingdom.

Better than taxing them is having the local political authority offering a title of some kind that let's them legally avoid the taxes in exchange for the PC's offering the city their protection. As a DM it gives you plot hooks and as the city leadership it keeps you from pissing off the murder hobos who might just decide that killing the tax man and then replacing him before going and collecting the cities taxes and leaving town is a good idea.

200 GP per year is generally low enough that PC's of that level won't really mind the amount but PC's are notorious for how stingy they can be.

[Malak'ai]

What level are the PC's?

Because trying to get money from murder hobos tends to be rarely worth it. I've seen PC's bring down a continent spanning empire simply because it had the audacity to try and tax them.

Were you leading the charge?

I also recommend #3

[Emperor Tippy]

Were you in that game? :smallwink:

I was the DM. What started as pretty much a one off mention by me of the tax collector coming around and trying to tax a townhouse of theirs 500 GP ended up being an entire campaign that spanned ten PC levels and saw them build up an entire rebellion and bring down an Empire. All because the local government had the audacity to think that the law applied to murder hobos.

The last scene of that campaign was after the PC's had fought their way into the empire's Forbidden City and into the Emperors throne room. When he asked them why the party Bard said "Because your empire decided to tax us, that's when we decided it needed a change in leadership."

[Frosty]

So the party killed the emperor (or mindraped perhaps) and effected a change in leadership. Well, the kingdom is theirs. How did they fund their new kingdom? Taxes? :smallamused:

[CRtwenty]

So the party killed the emperor (or mindraped perhaps) and effected a change in leadership. Well, the kingdom is theirs. How did they fund their new kingdom? Taxes? :smallamused:

Well yeah. But this time it's only NPCs that are getting taxed.

[Sylthia]

Option #5 Kill the tax man and redirect the campaign to overthrow the government so you don't have to pay any taxes.

[BWR]

Sounds fine to me. Most normal cities aren't going to have the resources to audit an adventuring party to find out their real worth, so assessing a tax based on the property they actualy own within the city seems fair.

You've never played in Mystara, I take it. Several countries have 'adventuring' as a legal, taxable occupation.

OP: sounds fine. Most people I know don't want to get bogged down in the minutiae of tax calculation; they get that enough in real life.

[TypoNinja]

Hmm, so probably close to the deadliest people in the kingdom.

Better than taxing them is having the local political authority offering a title of some kind that let's them legally avoid the taxes in exchange for the PC's offering the city their protection. As a DM it gives you plot hooks and as the city leadership it keeps you from pissing off the murder hobos who might just decide that killing the tax man and then replacing him before going and collecting the cities taxes and leaving town is a good idea.



Actually, depending on what system you are emulating for taxation.... this was acceptable practice as long as you could hide the body. And your neighbors would be delighted to help.

You see at a certain point Nobility decided that actually collecting taxes personally was a pain in the ass, so they sold off the right to collect taxes from certain areas, and then the new tax man earned whatever extra he could collect over what the Crown wanted. These tax men frequently traveled with body guards, not just for obvious reasons, you see they had to be able to compel people to pay up.

If you killed this tax man he couldn't collect, but the Crown didn't care(much, if it turned into a spectacle they'd be forced to notice), it got paid up front when it sold the rights.

As long as you don't drag the body through the streets chances are your neighbors will happily swear they never saw the taxman even arrive in town, after all it gets them out of paying too.

Though obviously if your party is predominately Good they'll cheerfully pay up :P

200GP yearly seems a little high to me, yea its pocket change for a PC, but if the PC's didn't have the property what NPC would be there instead? Is 200 GP a lot to him? Non-Adventurers make a lot less money than PC.

200 GP for a home for orphans would be more than they'd know what to do with. You could by 100 chickens for only 2 gold, 2 gold more for 100 lbs of milled flour. A whole damn cow is only 10 gold.

Even a single Gold Piece is a lot of money to a mundane, there's eating for a month or more in 1gp if you are careful.

[ahenobarbi]

Make is something silly.

10gp * (Width of front of the house (in inches) + number of windows on both sides ) / (1 + square root of number of guardian dogs (as counted on May 23rd))

with rationale being that wide front and many windows make it easier to break into and thus increase cost (also are a sign that you are doing well), while kennel-folks lobbied for the division part.

[Alleran]

The last scene of that campaign was after the PC's had fought their way into the empire's Forbidden City and into the Emperors throne room. When he asked them why the party Bard said "Because your empire decided to tax us, that's when we decided it needed a change in leadership."
This is fantastic.

[Jon_Dahl]

200GP yearly seems a little high to me, yea its pocket change for a PC, but if the PC's didn't have the property what NPC would be there instead? Is 200 GP a lot to him? Non-Adventurers make a lot less money than PC.

200 GP for a home for orphans would be more than they'd know what to do with. You could by 100 chickens for only 2 gold, 2 gold more for 100 lbs of milled flour. A whole damn cow is only 10 gold.

Even a single Gold Piece is a lot of money to a mundane, there's eating for a month or more in 1gp if you are careful.

200 gp is just 10% of the property value. In 10 years, you pay the entire worth of the building in taxes. However, I did some calculations: A trained laborer earns 3 sp per day, so his yearly salary would not be enough to pay taxes for this rather modest building worth 2,000 gp. You convinced me Typoninja, it will be 20 gp and not 200 gp. Thus the property tax is 1% per year. Yearly property tax for a riding horse is 7 sp and 5 cp.

[Ashtagon]

Income taxes are actually a fairly modern concept, and are best avoided. Believable taxes include:

Property taxes: Levied annually against the estimated value of buildings and/or land. Variants may tax ownership of vehicles, horses, or heavy trade tools (e.g. a tax on forges). Property taxes usually vary in amount depending on the relative value of the property.

Poll taxes: Levied annually as a flat rate per head living in a given community. Homeless people, and dependants of property owners, may or may not be taxed.

Road/Bridge/River taxes/tolls: Levied against each "unit" that passes a transport crossing. A "unit" can be a person, a wheel (wagons are typically 4 or 6 wheels), a horse, or a certain quantity of trade goods.

[Kaeso]

I'd like some verisimilitude advice on taxes.

In my game, only people with permanent residence and property are taxed. My players have never had their PCs taxed, but now they are planning to buy property from the capital. Just a small house in the city centre. The overall value of the house is 2,000 gp (an inflated price, due to the location). I have always presented taxation in my game as inefficient and unmodern.

The way I see it, I have four options:
1. They pay 200 gp per year as property taxes for the house.
2. They pay 200 gp per year as property taxes for the house and also an estimated 10% of their yearly income.
3. Inspectors will evaluate fixed assets and property every year. Only assets that are clearly fixed and plainly seen are evaluated, such as animals, furniture and large pieces of art. Taxes equal 10% of the worth of the fixed assets and property.
4. The PCs need to report all their possession. 10% of the worth of the reported wealth is collected as taxes once per year. It's an honor system.

I was thinking that I'd use the method #3. Every year inspectors come, they take a few minutes to look around, most of the time they will not bother to enter the house. They'll only tax fixed assets.

You've forgotten a fifth and very historical option. Your PC's are very rich, powerful and well known by this point, right? If they are, even if they only own a small residence, they could be granted a title of nobility which would, among other things, excempt them from taxes or at least give them a large discount on taxes.

[ahenobarbi]

Income taxes are actually a fairly modern concept, and are best avoided.

Not so modern, they're around since 10 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax#History).

[Der_DWSage]

Hm. I'd see a few different ways to put this, crunch-wise vs. flavor-wise.

1:Do exactly as you said in option #3. (They're richer, so they get taxed more.) Normal people wouldn't pay 200 GP, but these are adventurers-their lives depend on the safety of home. So their tax includes extra city services such as the City Watch popping in once a day or for a few magi to ward their homes, until they're told to stop.

2:Charge them a pittance on their property tax-somewhere around 1% of its actual worth annually. However, their income from adventuring has to be marked-probably in exchange for being able to sell to a reputable merchant that won't cheat them, rather than taking a chance on pawn shops. Their income is dinged whenever they come home to sell things, rather than anything else. True, they can sell on the black market, but that runs its own risks.

3:If you want a plot hook behind it? Charge the pittance, as I said in #2. However, have yourself a little mafia in the city that insists the adventurers pay some extra 'protection money,' lest they find their nice home with its white picket fence burnt down. Make them intimidating and well-prepared, and willing to hit adventurers where and when it hurts most. Unprotected friends, assassins while they're tired from adventure, sullying their reputation, all kinds of things. They'll either pay them off (And probably have to keep paying more...) or get tired of them and revert to 'Slaughter Hobo' mode, but towards more productive means than Tippy's particular band of lovable tramps.



Just a few thoughts on my own part. Hope it gets your brain jumpin'.

[Ashtagon]

Not so modern, they're around since 10 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax#History).

This tax directly led to the overthrow of the emperor just over a decade later. The next such tax was in England in 1188. That one lacked any reliable and objective way of assessing actual incomes, and so most of the tax actually raised was based on wealth rather than income.

The first "modern" income tax appears to date from 1799.

[ahenobarbi]

This tax directly led to the overthrow of the emperor just over a decade later. The next such tax was in England in 1188. That one lacked any reliable and objective way of assessing actual incomes, and so most of the tax actually raised was based on wealth rather than income.

The first "modern" income tax appears to date from 1799.

If 10 years of income tax in China is not enough, how about 10% income tax (on some activities) in BC Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#Ancient_Near_East)?

[Emmerask]

Hmm, so probably close to the deadliest people in the kingdom.

Depends very much on the setting, if you take a look at Faerun there are a ton of 14th level+ chars and pretty much every kingdom has either a high level wizard advisor has a church with an extremely powerful priest or is entirely run by wizards ^^

ie in Faerun special status is pretty much only reached after you join the smallish circle of epic level people (which I think still is well above what you can count on your fingers ^^)

[Zerter]

I always get hit by players for making the legal stuff too complicated. Anyway, if you want to go for a realistic system, 3 is not it. This is extreme, in the real world it would lead to a revolt pretty quickly or the country being abandonded. If you are going to do taxes you are going to need to do two things: justify why and think of a way it is enforceable.

How property tax works in The Netherlands is like this: you are assumed to make a 4% annual profit over your total property (this is fictional, but a realistic system too complicated) and have to pay 30% over that 4%. Meaning you pay 1,2% anually over your total property. Your own house is not included (it is included in your income bracket), but lets say it is for simplicity's sake. This should not hurt the PCs too much, maybe have them pay a year up front upon purchasing and they'll forget quickly.

If you are going to do income tax I would say 10% is a good figure and I would have a religious order collect. That makes sense because well, LG can justify why they need the money (to protect against general bad guys, undead, evil outsiders, heal the sick, cast divination spells to do stuff, all in the interest of everyone including the PCs) and because you can justify sending in the big guns if they kill the cleric.

[Malimar]

Though obviously if your party is predominately Good they'll cheerfully pay up :P

Cheerfully paying taxes seems more Lawful than Good to me. I mean, I would say paying taxes is a (small-g) good thing, but that may just be because I'm more Lawful than Good myself.

[ahenobarbi]

Cheerfully paying taxes seems more Lawful than Good to me. I mean, I would say paying taxes is a (small-g) good thing, but that may just be because I'm more Lawful than Good myself.

How is paying someone not to imprison you (and maybe to protect you) a good thing :smallconfused:

[ArcturusV]

Giving what money you can spare to the government so it can provide services which protect the populace as a whole?

I'd probably dispense with a Land Tax and instead do a Salvage Tax for adventurers. Land Owners (Small lordlings, etc) may pay taxes in food, ores, men levied for the army, etc. But Adventurers get Salvage Taxed. They bring stuff into a town? That stuff gets catalogued and taxed off the top.

Which yes, is likely to piss off players (Though realistically probably not characters because this is just "the way things are" to them, may not like it, but shouldn't inspire burning hatred).

A Salvage Tax would give a lot more income to the king's coffers than tax on some 2000 GP property. And might explain why a King necessarily tolerates (Or even helps foster the growth of) people who could kick over his Kingdom on a whim if they wished. Calculated risk of Tax Rewards versus the danger of having rowdy hobos they may not be able to keep in check.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Cheerfully paying taxes seems more Lawful than Good to me. I mean, I would say paying taxes is a (small-g) good thing, but that may just be because I'm more Lawful than Good myself.
That would depend entirely on what taxes are used for.

If they are mostly used to maintain an obscenely luxurious standard of living for the nobility while the rest are left to rot, or to fund unjustified wars against hapless innocent neighbors, then yes. More Lawful than Good. Possibly not good at all.

If they are mostly used to build orphanages, hospitals, universities and roads, to train and equip an army for defense, and to generally provide for all the king's subjects, then paying taxes is also Good - capital G.

When it's a little bit of both, there's room for interpretation. :smalltongue:

[mattie_p]

I'd probably dispense with a Land Tax and instead do a Salvage Tax for adventurers. Land Owners (Small lordlings, etc) may pay taxes in food, ores, men levied for the army, etc. But Adventurers get Salvage Taxed. They bring stuff into a town? That stuff gets catalogued and taxed off the top.

Which yes, is likely to piss off players (Though realistically probably not characters because this is just "the way things are" to them, may not like it, but shouldn't inspire burning hatred).

A Salvage Tax would give a lot more income to the king's coffers than tax on some 2000 GP property. And might explain why a King necessarily tolerates (Or even helps foster the growth of) people who could kick over his Kingdom on a whim if they wished. Calculated risk of Tax Rewards versus the danger of having rowdy hobos they may not be able to keep in check.

I usually use handwavium to explain this. If someone really wanted to know how they pay taxes, this is it. It also explains how you sell magic items for 50% of their worth but buy at 100%. Taxes.

[Renegade Paladin]

How is paying someone not to imprison you (and maybe to protect you) a good thing :smallconfused:
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Because that's not what taxes are, barring extreme public corruption.

[ahenobarbi]

Because that's not what taxes are, barring extreme public corruption.

Eh? Care to explain? I was under impression that not-paying taxes generally results in going to prison (and loosing as much of what you own). So from tax-payer perspective it's money you pay because you don't want to be imprisoned (and loose much of whatever you own on top of that).


What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

This is relevant because mid- and high- level adventurers generally don't care about low-level government employees trying to imprison them. So you need so different kind motivation for them to pay taxes then people in real world have.

[Emmerask]

This is relevant because mid- and high- level adventurers generally don't care about low-level government employees trying to imprison them. So you need so different kind motivation for them to pay taxes then people in real world have.

The thing is if the government also has high level "employees" its very likely that they will take action and this action might even be harsher then what the sum warrants to

a) prevent civil unrest
b) make an example for other mid level adventurers

Though what I generally did in 3.5 campaigns (moved on to other systems by now though) was to let the players have some stake in a kingdom, ie they became minor nobles with a small castle and a village. This way the murdering hobo tendencies are somewhat reduced ^^

[Renegade Paladin]

Eh? Care to explain? I was under impression that not-paying taxes generally results in going to prison (and loosing as much of what you own). So from tax-payer perspective it's money you pay because you don't want to be imprisoned (and loose much of whatever you own on top of that).
It's money you pay because you'd rather not have to deal with no roads, no collective defense, and total anarchy. :smalltongue: Now, to an adventurer those are things that usually don't matter very much, since they teleport everywhere, defend themselves, and would do quite well in an anarchy, but to everybody else who isn't Superman, it's generally well worth doing.

[ahenobarbi]

The thing is if the government also has high level "employees" its very likely that they will take action and this action might even be harsher then what the sum warrants to

a) prevent civil unrest
b) make an example for other mid level adventurers

Though what I generally did in 3.5 campaigns (moved on to other systems by now though) was to let the players have some stake in a kingdom, ie they became minor nobles with a small castle and a village. This way the murdering hobo tendencies are somewhat reduced ^^

There are many reasons PCs might decide to pay taxes ("because they believe that's just", "because this is so little money it's not worth making (even weak) enemies over it", "because state has powerful wizard backing it up, better not make enemies with him(or her or it)", "because we didn't think we could not pay taxes", ...). It highly depends on PCs.

I just wanted to say the usual reason "regular police will come and lock me in a cell if I don't" doesn't work so OP should give it some thought.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Eh? Care to explain? I was under impression that not-paying taxes generally results in going to prison (and loosing as much of what you own). So from tax-payer perspective it's money you pay because you don't want to be imprisoned (and loose much of whatever you own on top of that).
Yes, but depending on the setting, a tax-payer may be at the same time a tax-recipient. Ideally, he gets an army on the borders that protects him from enemy armies, a city guard that protects him from bandits, a network of roads that help him travel quickly and safely (so he go next town and buy/sell stuff), a wizard academy that scouts the villages for gifted children (his son may be one one of them!) and trains them, a resident healer at his nearby temple, a local judge that handles disputes, a central authority that mints coins as a widely accepted currency to facilitate transactions, and so on.

...Emphasis on "ideally". :smalltongue:

Historically, taxes have at times allowed for huge progress in society (infrastructure, education, and technological advancement being the most important aspects), and at times devolved to a mere protection racket. They can be used for redistribution of wealth and reducing inequality, and they can be used to keep everyone in check and maintain a brutal status quo which benefits only a slim minority. In any case, states cannot function without taxes - unless they are in the business of conquering other states left and right, and taxing them instead.

[Malimar]

How is paying someone not to imprison you (and maybe to protect you) a good thing :smallconfused:
That would depend entirely on what taxes are used for.

If they are mostly used to maintain an obscenely luxurious standard of living for the nobility while the rest are left to rot, or to fund unjustified wars against hapless innocent neighbors, then yes. More Lawful than Good. Possibly not good at all.

If they are mostly used to build orphanages, hospitals, universities and roads, to train and equip an army for defense, and to generally provide for all the king's subjects, then paying taxes is also Good - capital G.

When it's a little bit of both, there's room for interpretation. :smalltongue:
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Because that's not what taxes are, barring extreme public corruption.
Eh? Care to explain? I was under impression that not-paying taxes generally results in going to prison (and loosing as much of what you own). So from tax-payer perspective it's money you pay because you don't want to be imprisoned (and loose much of whatever you own on top of that).
It's money you pay because you'd rather not have to deal with no roads, no collective defense, and total anarchy. :smalltongue: Now, to an adventurer those are things that usually don't matter very much, since they teleport everywhere, defend themselves, and would do quite well in an anarchy, but to everybody else who isn't Superman, it's generally well worth doing.

ogawd I accidentally an alignment debate that's also a politics debate abandon ship abandon ship

[ahenobarbi]

Yes, but depending on the setting, a tax-payer may be at the same time a tax-recipient. Ideally, he gets an army on the borders that protects him from enemy armies, a city guard that protects him from bandits, a network of roads that help him travel quickly and safely (so he go next town and buy/sell stuff), a wizard academy that scouts the villages for gifted children (his son may be one one of them!) and trains them, a resident healer at his nearby temple, a local judge that handles disputes, a central authority that mints coins as a widely accepted currency to facilitate transactions, and so on.

...Emphasis on "ideally". :smalltongue:

Historically, taxes have at times allowed for huge progress in society (infrastructure, education, and technological advancement being the most important aspects), and at times devolved to a mere protection racket. They can be used for redistribution of wealth and reducing inequality, and they can be used to keep everyone in check and maintain a brutal status quo which benefits only a slim minority.

Let's agree to disagree on influence of taxes on humanity (I don't think this is proper place to discuss).


In any case, states cannot function without taxes - unless they are in the business of conquering other states left and right, and taxing them instead.

At least with that I can agree. Not that it matters for the topic.


It's money you pay because you'd rather not have to deal with no roads, no collective defense, and total anarchy. :smalltongue: Now, to an adventurer those are things that usually don't matter very much, since they teleport everywhere, defend themselves, and would do quite well in an anarchy, but to everybody else who isn't Superman, it's generally well worth doing.

On point: How many people would pay taxes if there were no penalties? I think very few. So for most people penalties are the reason they pay taxes. Regular penalties don't apply to d&d adventurers so DM should think about different kind of motivation.

Also roads and defense can exist pretty well without taxes (and anarchy isn't per definition (lack of government) a bad thing, just most people think it will result in bad things happening).


ogawd I accidentally an alignment debate that's also a politics debate abandon ship abandon ship

Hey! I just tried to bring a potential problem to your attention :smalltongue:

It's too late :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

This tax directly led to the overthrow of the emperor just over a decade later. The next such tax was in England in 1188. That one lacked any reliable and objective way of assessing actual incomes, and so most of the tax actually raised was based on wealth rather than income.

The first "modern" income tax appears to date from 1799.

Ummm, the first "modern" income tax appears in Leviticus. Every heard of the 10th? That's what I base my taxes on in my D&D campaign.

[Zerter]

On point: How many people would pay taxes if there were no penalties? I think very few. So for most people penalties are the reason they pay taxes. Regular penalties don't apply to d&d adventurers so DM should think about different kind of motivation.

People in general are fine with paying taxes as long as they feel everyone pays their share and they feel it is being spent wisely. The first is why a enforcement mechanism needs to be in place.

[CaladanMoonblad]

It is obvious that there is a wide array of ontologies in real life on the subject of taxation, and the clashing earlier in this thread is indicative of fundamentally different views on the subject and the state. Tread carefully friends, here there be moderators...

At any rate, going back to the OP's original options;

A 10% annual property tax is... way high, simply because the entire value of the property has been paid in a decade (reiterating a previous poster). An annual 1% tax is far more reasonable. Typically, only landowners were taxed in feudal systems (because peasants couldn't pay since they were in fact property and tied to the land). Generally also, the local noble was collecting taxes for the Crown, and part of the nobility title was to enact local taxes for the sustenance of the barony, county, etc.

There have been historically a variety of taxes to fund the state; the lack of taxes generally meant a lack of a salary to the Army and Navy (historical note, Roman Legionairres were often paid in salt because there was not enough coin, hence the word salary is based on this salt payment). This meant a demoralized security force, demoralized men, etc.

Another historical note; The Doberman was bred specifically as a tax collector's dog in Germany, because they needed an intimidating animal that was loyal to its master and easy to handle. Now, think about how many domesticated creatures can be trained in D&D, not just dogs. The tax man could have a trained gryphon, or a trained something or other to help them in their patriotic duty of getting the rabble to pay up for the commonwealth.

Another thought; the purpose of estates in feudal Europe was to make incomes. The entire estate system pulled all the local resources into an on the ground noble loyal to the Monarch, and would often pay the tax not in money, but in trade goods. Thus, an estate with large sheep herds might pay in sheep or wool or mutton, whatever the Monarch needed most. Perhaps the estate cut wood and sold it on the market, but first they needed to meet the Monarch's tax in terms of lumber and quality. So much of the medieval economy was not based on coin, but on trade goods.

[Ashtagon]

Ummm, the first "modern" income tax appears in Leviticus. Every heard of the 10th? That's what I base my taxes on in my D&D campaign.

Tithing agricultural grain production is something that can be measured reasonably easily. Tithing tends to fall apart in any kind of complex economy, as evidenced by the fact that it more or less fell into disuse as a government tax by the mid-Iron Age.

[Cirrylius]

A 10% annual property tax is... way high, simply because the entire value of the property has been paid in a decade
Maybe 10% for 10 years, dropping to 1% thereafter?


Now, think about how many domesticated creatures can be trained in D&D, not just dogs. The tax man could have a trained gryphon, or a trained something or other to help them in their patriotic duty of getting the rabble to pay up for the commonwealth.

:smallbiggrin:Oh. Oh man. You owe me a bottle of Ibuprofin for the punishment my ribs just took from laughing. +1.


But Adventurers get Salvage Taxed. They bring stuff into a town? That stuff gets catalogued and taxed off the top.

Mother of GOD, if you do this, make it clear to the PC's when they start to howl that you bumped up the Treasure Per Encounter to compensate.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It be easiest just to tax the people providing adventures with services or for the governments to directly control the sources for raw materials used in magic item construction.

Creating a magic item requires X amount in raw materials. If the local government owns or tithes the source of those raw materials there's no need to tax adventures directly. We can just presume the tax is part of the cost in raw materials.

[Clistenes]

Giving what money you can spare to the government so it can provide services which protect the populace as a whole?

I'd probably dispense with a Land Tax and instead do a Salvage Tax for adventurers. Land Owners (Small lordlings, etc) may pay taxes in food, ores, men levied for the army, etc. But Adventurers get Salvage Taxed. They bring stuff into a town? That stuff gets catalogued and taxed off the top.

Which yes, is likely to piss off players (Though realistically probably not characters because this is just "the way things are" to them, may not like it, but shouldn't inspire burning hatred).

A Salvage Tax would give a lot more income to the king's coffers than tax on some 2000 GP property. And might explain why a King necessarily tolerates (Or even helps foster the growth of) people who could kick over his Kingdom on a whim if they wished. Calculated risk of Tax Rewards versus the danger of having rowdy hobos they may not be able to keep in check.

The players will cross hundred of miles of wilderness to reach a lawless place where they can sell the loot ot a pirate or smuggler.

Anyway, how do you prove that the sword and armor the warrior is wearing are loot, and not something he bought somewhere else? The tax should probably be on the sale of "luxury items".


I usually use handwavium to explain this. If someone really wanted to know how they pay taxes, this is it. It also explains how you sell magic items for 50% of their worth but buy at 100%. Taxes.

Well, that and that the merchant will have to keep the magical items stored for months or years before he finds a buyer willing to pay the price of the loot, or he maybe will even have to send it to a far away large town to find those buyers.
Buying loot is sort of a long-term investment: You buy from a murder hobo in the hope that someday another murder hobo (or a king) will buy the loot back, but that can take years of waiting.

[TypoNinja]

You have to remember that lacking modern technology enforcement and accurate assessment of taxes was quite difficult. Early tax systems tended to be incredibly simplified.

When only nobility could own land intermediate and lesser nobles payed to their direct superior personally, they in turn raised their money from the peasants who worked their land. The King taxes his nobility, not the people. The people usually didn't have the liquid wealth to pay taxes, portions of the harvest were given up. You need a fairly solid middle class before taxing the people is worth your time, by and large peasants are broke.

So the level of tax in your setting should be heavily dependent on what point of history your setting has graduated too. Is there a middle class? Or is it pretty much a big dividing line between the rich nobility and the peasants? Can one own land without being Nobility? If no, there is probably no land tax. Or rather its not a tax on the land, but the title. Does enough trade flow through the area that the government would tax that rather than attempting the hassle of taxing individuals? A levy on anyone in city limits who owns a shop for example is much easier than something as complex as an income tax.

[Sith_Happens]

This tax directly led to the overthrow of the emperor just over a decade later.

Well. I suppose that gives some perspective to Tippy's players, then.


Another historical note; The Doberman was bred specifically as a tax collector's dog in Germany, because they needed an intimidating animal that was loyal to its master and easy to handle. Now, think about how many domesticated creatures can be trained in D&D, not just dogs. The tax man could have a trained gryphon, or a trained something or other to help them in their patriotic duty of getting the rabble to pay up for the commonwealth.

Suddenly I am imagining a tax collector who so happens to be a gray render adoptee. It's a very amusing thought.

[Telok]

In my game the characters are exiles and are supposed to hate the Empire.

How to make your players hate the (in game) government.
Note that each permit or license is for a particular magic item except for the general permits and licenses which are needed in order to apply for the other permits and licenses.

Permit for general possession of magic items: 375
Permit for possession of magical armor or clothing: 115* caster level
Permit for possession of weapons: 240* caster level + 800* total enhancements
Permit for possession of potions: 95* caster level
Permit for possession of scrolls: 105* caster level
Permit for possession of rods: 265* caster level + 720 per daily uses
Permit for possession of wands: 145* caster level + 7.5 per charge
Permit for possession of staves: 290* caster level + 12.5 per charge and 630 per additional spell
Permit for possession of jewelry: 130* caster level
Permit for possession of other magic items: 165* caster level + 210 processing fee
Permit for possession of offensive magic items: +22.5%
Permit for possession of healing magic items: +15%
Permit for possession of divination magic items: +35%
Permit for possession of necromancy magic items: +37.5 %
License for general use of magic items: 395
License for use of magical armor or clothing: 95* caster level
License for use of weapons: 255* caster level + 300* total enhancements
License for use of potions: 65* caster level
License for use of scrolls: 125* caster level
License for use of rods: 285* caster level + 320 per daily uses
License for use of wands: 105* caster level
License for use of staves: 445* caster level + 310 per additional spell
License for use of jewelry: 120* caster level
License for use of other magic items: 130* caster level + 210 processing fee
License for use of offensive magic items: +27.5%
License for use of healing magic items: +5%
License for use of divination magic items: +20%
License for use of necromancy magic items: +40%
Permit for general transport of magic items: 375
Permit for transport of magical armor or clothing: 55* caster level
Permit for transport of weapons: 140* caster level + 400* total enhancements
Permit for transport of potions: 45* caster level
Permit for transport of scrolls: 55* caster level
Permit for transport of rods: 125* caster level + 320 per daily uses
Permit for transport of wands: 75* caster level + 2.5 per charge
Permit for transport of staves: 145* caster level + 6 per charge and 230 per additional spell
Permit for transport of jewelry: 60* caster level
Permit for transport of other magic items: 85* caster level + 110 processing fee
Permit for transport of offensive magic items: +12.5%
Permit for transport of healing magic items: +7.5%
Permit for transport of divination magic items: +15%
Permit for transport of necromancy magic items: +27.5 %
License for general purchase/sale of magic items: 395
License for purchase/sale of magical armor or clothing: 9.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of weapons: 25.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of potions: 6% of base value
License for purchase/sale of scrolls: 12% of base value
License for purchase/sale of rods: 28% of base value
License for purchase/sale of wands: 10% of base value
License for purchase/sale of staves: 4.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of jewelry: 12% of base value
License for purchase/sale of other magic items: 13% of base value + 630 processing fee
License for purchase/sale of offensive magic items: +22% of base value
License for purchase/sale of healing magic items: +7% of base value
License for purchase/sale of divination magic items: +18% of base value
License for purchase/sale of necromancy magic items: +33% of base value
Permit for general creation of magic items: 675
Permit for creation of magical armor or clothing: 215* caster level
Permit for creation of weapons: 440* caster level + 1200* total enhancements
Permit for creation of potions: 175* caster level
Permit for creation of scrolls: 205* caster level
Permit for creation of rods: 465* caster level + 1120 per daily uses
Permit for creation of wands: 245* caster level + 15 per charge
Permit for creation of staves: 490* caster level + 25 per charge and 930 per additional spell
Permit for creation of jewelry: 230* caster level
Permit for creation of other magic items: 265* caster level + 725 processing fee
Permit for creation of offensive magic items: +32.5%
Permit for creation of healing magic items: +15%
Permit for creation of divination magic items: +45%
Permit for creation of necromancy magic items: +55%

Registration of spell casting and supernatural or spell-like abilities must be renewed every year.
Registration of spellcasting ability: 350
Registration of spell power: 105* caster level* total of all spell levels
Permit to know/prepare damage spells: 270* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare divination spells: 130* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare defensive spells: 75* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare enhancing spells: 95* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare communication spells: 60* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare offensive spells: 225* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare necromancy spells: 310* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare curative spells: 65* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare healing spells: 70* spell level (per spell)
Permit for generic spell components: 85* highest level spell + 30 per each other spell
Permit for spell foci: 135* spell level, per focus
General license to cast spells: 700
License to cast damage spells: 370* caster level (per spell)
License to cast divination spells: 230* caster level (per spell)
License to cast defensive spells: 45* caster level (per spell)
License to cast enhancing spells: 55* caster level (per spell)
License to cast communication spells: 40* caster level (per spell)
License to cast offensive spells: 325* caster level (per spell)
License to cast necromancy spells: 510* caster level (per spell)
License to cast curative spells: 35* caster level (per spell)
License to cast healing spells: 40* caster level (per spell)
License to cast spells with death effects: 335* caster level* spell level (per spell)
License to cast spells with level draining effects 215* caster level* spell level (per spell)

Adventuring permits and licenses: Single areas are ruined temples, dungeons, cities, and other limited and defined areas. Local areas include the region immediately around a single area (like the farmland surrounding a city) or may be specific geographic features like a river or a range of hills. Provinces are geopolitical areas designated by the empire and there are no permits that allow adventuring across the whole empire.
General adventuring party registration: 520 per year, only good in the issuing province.
Permit to adventure in a single area, two weeks: 730* party members
Permit to adventure in a single area, two months: 1460* party members
Permit to adventure in a single area, one year: 2920* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, two weeks: 1195* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, two months: 2390* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, one year: 4780* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, two weeks: 1745* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, two months: 3490* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, one year: 6980* party members
License to adventure against common threats (goblins, owl bears): 450 + 8% of treasure
License to adventure against dangerous threats (ankhegs, shadows): 715 + 11% of treasure
License to adventure against personal threats (assassins, kidnapping): 1230 + 16% of treasure
License to adventure against social threats (thieves guilds, cults): 3155 + property damage estimates
License to adventure against political threats: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against magical threats: +35% fee and +12% of treasure
License to adventure against undead threats: +42% fee and legal responsibility for spawn
License to adventure against demonic threats: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against lesser or common dragons: +8% of treasure
License to adventure against greater dragons: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against shapeshifters: requires a government minder/liason
License to adventure against constructs and living spells: +65% fee

Please remember to get permits and licenses before you possess or transport any magic items you find. Possession and transmission of magic items without the proper permits is a dangerous illegal activity with punishments of up to 250,000 gold pieces and exile or death.

[Sith_Happens]

In my game the characters are exiles and are supposed to hate the Empire.

How to make your players hate the (in game) government.
Note that each permit or license is for a particular magic item except for the general permits and licenses which are needed in order to apply for the other permits and licenses.

Permit for general possession of magic items: 375
Permit for possession of magical armor or clothing: 115* caster level
Permit for possession of weapons: 240* caster level + 800* total enhancements
Permit for possession of potions: 95* caster level
Permit for possession of scrolls: 105* caster level
Permit for possession of rods: 265* caster level + 720 per daily uses
Permit for possession of wands: 145* caster level + 7.5 per charge
Permit for possession of staves: 290* caster level + 12.5 per charge and 630 per additional spell
Permit for possession of jewelry: 130* caster level
Permit for possession of other magic items: 165* caster level + 210 processing fee
Permit for possession of offensive magic items: +22.5%
Permit for possession of healing magic items: +15%
Permit for possession of divination magic items: +35%
Permit for possession of necromancy magic items: +37.5 %
License for general use of magic items: 395
License for use of magical armor or clothing: 95* caster level
License for use of weapons: 255* caster level + 300* total enhancements
License for use of potions: 65* caster level
License for use of scrolls: 125* caster level
License for use of rods: 285* caster level + 320 per daily uses
License for use of wands: 105* caster level
License for use of staves: 445* caster level + 310 per additional spell
License for use of jewelry: 120* caster level
License for use of other magic items: 130* caster level + 210 processing fee
License for use of offensive magic items: +27.5%
License for use of healing magic items: +5%
License for use of divination magic items: +20%
License for use of necromancy magic items: +40%
Permit for general transport of magic items: 375
Permit for transport of magical armor or clothing: 55* caster level
Permit for transport of weapons: 140* caster level + 400* total enhancements
Permit for transport of potions: 45* caster level
Permit for transport of scrolls: 55* caster level
Permit for transport of rods: 125* caster level + 320 per daily uses
Permit for transport of wands: 75* caster level + 2.5 per charge
Permit for transport of staves: 145* caster level + 6 per charge and 230 per additional spell
Permit for transport of jewelry: 60* caster level
Permit for transport of other magic items: 85* caster level + 110 processing fee
Permit for transport of offensive magic items: +12.5%
Permit for transport of healing magic items: +7.5%
Permit for transport of divination magic items: +15%
Permit for transport of necromancy magic items: +27.5 %
License for general purchase/sale of magic items: 395
License for purchase/sale of magical armor or clothing: 9.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of weapons: 25.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of potions: 6% of base value
License for purchase/sale of scrolls: 12% of base value
License for purchase/sale of rods: 28% of base value
License for purchase/sale of wands: 10% of base value
License for purchase/sale of staves: 4.5% of base value
License for purchase/sale of jewelry: 12% of base value
License for purchase/sale of other magic items: 13% of base value + 630 processing fee
License for purchase/sale of offensive magic items: +22% of base value
License for purchase/sale of healing magic items: +7% of base value
License for purchase/sale of divination magic items: +18% of base value
License for purchase/sale of necromancy magic items: +33% of base value
Permit for general creation of magic items: 675
Permit for creation of magical armor or clothing: 215* caster level
Permit for creation of weapons: 440* caster level + 1200* total enhancements
Permit for creation of potions: 175* caster level
Permit for creation of scrolls: 205* caster level
Permit for creation of rods: 465* caster level + 1120 per daily uses
Permit for creation of wands: 245* caster level + 15 per charge
Permit for creation of staves: 490* caster level + 25 per charge and 930 per additional spell
Permit for creation of jewelry: 230* caster level
Permit for creation of other magic items: 265* caster level + 725 processing fee
Permit for creation of offensive magic items: +32.5%
Permit for creation of healing magic items: +15%
Permit for creation of divination magic items: +45%
Permit for creation of necromancy magic items: +55%

Registration of spell casting and supernatural or spell-like abilities must be renewed every year.
Registration of spellcasting ability: 350
Registration of spell power: 105* caster level* total of all spell levels
Permit to know/prepare damage spells: 270* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare divination spells: 130* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare defensive spells: 75* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare enhancing spells: 95* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare communication spells: 60* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare offensive spells: 225* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare necromancy spells: 310* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare curative spells: 65* spell level (per spell)
Permit to know/prepare healing spells: 70* spell level (per spell)
Permit for generic spell components: 85* highest level spell + 30 per each other spell
Permit for spell foci: 135* spell level, per focus
General license to cast spells: 700
License to cast damage spells: 370* caster level (per spell)
License to cast divination spells: 230* caster level (per spell)
License to cast defensive spells: 45* caster level (per spell)
License to cast enhancing spells: 55* caster level (per spell)
License to cast communication spells: 40* caster level (per spell)
License to cast offensive spells: 325* caster level (per spell)
License to cast necromancy spells: 510* caster level (per spell)
License to cast curative spells: 35* caster level (per spell)
License to cast healing spells: 40* caster level (per spell)
License to cast spells with death effects: 335* caster level* spell level (per spell)
License to cast spells with level draining effects 215* caster level* spell level (per spell)

Adventuring permits and licenses: Single areas are ruined temples, dungeons, cities, and other limited and defined areas. Local areas include the region immediately around a single area (like the farmland surrounding a city) or may be specific geographic features like a river or a range of hills. Provinces are geopolitical areas designated by the empire and there are no permits that allow adventuring across the whole empire.
General adventuring party registration: 520 per year, only good in the issuing province.
Permit to adventure in a single area, two weeks: 730* party members
Permit to adventure in a single area, two months: 1460* party members
Permit to adventure in a single area, one year: 2920* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, two weeks: 1195* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, two months: 2390* party members
Permit to adventure in a local area, one year: 4780* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, two weeks: 1745* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, two months: 3490* party members
Permit to adventure in a province, one year: 6980* party members
License to adventure against common threats (goblins, owl bears): 450 + 8% of treasure
License to adventure against dangerous threats (ankhegs, shadows): 715 + 11% of treasure
License to adventure against personal threats (assassins, kidnapping): 1230 + 16% of treasure
License to adventure against social threats (thieves guilds, cults): 3155 + property damage estimates
License to adventure against political threats: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against magical threats: +35% fee and +12% of treasure
License to adventure against undead threats: +42% fee and legal responsibility for spawn
License to adventure against demonic threats: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against lesser or common dragons: +8% of treasure
License to adventure against greater dragons: requires special dispensation
License to adventure against shapeshifters: requires a government minder/liason
License to adventure against constructs and living spells: +65% fee

Please remember to get permits and licenses before you possess or transport any magic items you find. Possession and transmission of magic items without the proper permits is a dangerous illegal activity with punishments of up to 250,000 gold pieces and exile or death.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-F0F1Zhr0GW4/UYqhSPCDIDI/AAAAAAAAIi4/JqmhQGwfOhs/s320/s2zg1qc.jpg

[Jon_Dahl]

...

Thank you, your advice is sound. I think I'm going with the roughly estimated annual 1% property and fixed assets tax. At the countryside, land would be taxed too, but that's not an issue in an urban environment. It seems that most playgrounders support this idea, so it certainly seems like something that could work.

That list of licenses by Telok is just brilliant. Perhaps a bit carried away, but certainly appropriate within the context.

[Devils_Advocate]

What started as pretty much a one off mention by me of the tax collector coming around and trying to tax a townhouse of theirs 500 GP ended up being an entire campaign that spanned ten PC levels and saw them build up an entire rebellion and bring down an Empire. All because the local government had the audacity to think that the law applied to murder hobos.
Oddly enough, the Player's Handbook says that a Chaotic Neutral character doesn't try to overthrow organizations because to do so one must be motivated by either Good (and a desire to liberate others) or Evil (and a desire to make those different from oneself suffer).

I honestly don't know what the writer was thinking on that point. Overthrowing an organization to prevent it from controlling you, or just for revenge, is totally a thing someone can do.


So the party killed the emperor (or mindraped perhaps) and effected a change in leadership. Well, the kingdom is theirs. How did they fund their new kingdom? Taxes? :smallamused:
Fines and forced labor as punishment for crime? Voluntary contributions from wealthy patrons? Pillaging enemy lands? Personal business investments? Extensive, gratuitous use of high-level magic to circumvent normal economic considerations?


Which yes, is likely to piss off players (Though realistically probably not characters because this is just "the way things are" to them, may not like it, but shouldn't inspire burning hatred).
Eh, reasonable players won't hate a government just for taxing their characters, and will realize that the GM controls how much wealth they get regardless.

Of course, unreasonable players may say "What?! Player characters are above the law!!"


How is paying someone not to imprison you (and maybe to protect you) a good thing :smallconfused:
... Because then you aren't imprisoned (and maybe protected)?


It's money you pay because you'd rather not have to deal with no roads, no collective defense, and total anarchy.
Dude, OTHER people can pay for that stuff. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem) The taxes that you personally pay probably don't make the difference between whether or not you personally receive benefits worth that amount of money. Which creates a situation in which a group of selfish people will not voluntarily pay any taxes, even if the individual benefit of collective compliance would be worth the individual cost for each. So they need to sacrifice their individual freedom for the sake of the common good. (See also: tragedy of the commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons), prisoner's dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma), etc.)

People generally pay taxes because they're forced to pay taxes. They're forced to pay taxes because there are institutions in place that force them to pay taxes. And sometimes, those institutions are in place because the same group of people who pay taxes want them in place. In those cases, the taxpayers want those institutions in place because they want taxes to be collected. And they want taxes to be collected because they want the things that taxes pay for.

Which is to say that, yes, sometimes people do pay taxes because they want the things that taxes pay for. But wanting the things bought with taxes doesn't directly cause them to pay taxes. It causes it indirectly. The direct cause is generally the threat of punishment for non-payment. Which is to say that, yes, taxes are paying someone not to imprison or otherwise use force against you.

Otherwise taxation would be based on the honor system and involve a whole lot less bureaucracy.