crusades era martial classes

[blelliot]

Any ideas on what martial classes I could use for a crusades style game? I'm already using the fighter, barbarian, and knight. I don't wanna use tob. But I'm open to using other d20 system material. Also, paladin and ranger are prestige classes in the game. Don't know if swashbuckler would fit. Any ideas?

[Callin]

Rogue fits well

[Raineh Daze]

You're doing a Crusades-era thing, and you don't want to use ToB, when it explicitly contains something labelled 'Crusader'? :smallconfused:

[gorfnab]

Marshal (MH), Scout (CAdv)

[BowStreetRunner]

The 3.5 Cleric was based more on crusader-style clergy than on your average parish priest. I think you would be remiss in not including the class.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ranger with a huge amount of ACF's.

Seriously. ALL the ACFs. That is a much much MUCH better 'soldier' class than the Fighter. For competent soldiers and light cavalry (for Ride, a good Wisdom and Military Saddles that are Masterwork tools of Ride is enough), for example, take Ranger with some of these ACF's:

Skilled City-Dweller (Ride for Tumble)
Trap Expert
Strong-Arm Style
Solitary Hunting (take favored enemy Human)

possibly Spiritual Connection

Here are some relatively non-supernatural base classes, or classes which you can pretend aren't supernatural if you don't look at them too hard. Remember to refluff the classes extensively:

Rogue
Ranger (non spellcasting variants, complete warrior & complete champion)
Paladin (nonspellcasting variant, complete warrior)
Fighter
Barbarian
Knight
Marshal
Ninja
Samurai (both OA and the sucky version)
Scout
Swashbuckler
Crusader
Warblade
Expert (yes, with the RIGHT skills, this npc class can be really really useful in a party...)
Noble

[Verditude]

If you have Heroes of Battle, there is some worthwhile material in there, like the Legendary Leader and Dread Commando prestige classes.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Um... why no crusader? That makes complete sense...
I'd suggest factotum as a guide and researcher.

Ranger is a good class for it.
Cleric is good; I'd suggest limiting spells known or something like that.

The Marsha... never mind, already mentioned.

[blelliot]

No tome of battle mainly because I'm not a fan of the martial adepts. Never sat well with me.

[Raineh Daze]

No tome of battle mainly because I'm not a fan of the martial adepts. Never sat well with me.

Can I ask why? If it's the fluff, that's easily ignored/changed to fit.

[Idhan]

Hmmm... two things that come to my mind that I think would be good:

1. A serious crossbowman class, prestige class, or fighter feat line. While during the period crossbows were in some respects a "simple weapon" as in 3.5, and popular among relatively poorly trained urban militias, crossbows were also a specialized weapon among highly trained mercenaries of Pisa and Genoa: these were not merely soldiers without enough training to have martial weapon proficiency (longbow) (which is what pretty much any crossbow user is in D&D 3.5), but well trained crossbow specialists, as capable (with perhaps some pros and some cons) as specialized archers.

2. A good horse archer class, representing Turkish horse archers, Byzantine hippotoxotai, mamluks, and even the turkopoles of crusader forces. Ranger would work, although they should be able to get a light warhorse rather than just a light/heavy horse as an animal companion (not sure how this should be balanced).

Not sure about the best approach with the crossbow specialist. I think PHB II has good crossbow feats? Is that enough?

Bards like Blondel de Nesle might be fun, although you could say they should just be rogues with points in perform.

Assassins might also be fun, although perhaps you could switch out their arcane spellcasting for divine. (Don't require them to smoke hashish before they prepare divine spells, though. That's just Mustali propaganda!)

[Ashtagon]

You're doing a Crusades-era thing, and you don't want to use ToB, when it explicitly contains something labelled 'Crusader'? :smallconfused:

Miko didn't have levels in samurai. Just saying.


The 3.5 Cleric was based more on crusader-style clergy than on your average parish priest. I think you would be remiss in not including the class.

The only bit of the crusader-style clergy that the D&D cleric took was the "no edged weapons" schtick. And even that owes more to a single frieze in the Bayeux Tapestry than to any actual historical research; historical fighting clerics were quite happy to use swords. The cleric class actually owes more to early vampire hunter horror movies.

[Idhan]

The only bit of the crusader-style clergy that the D&D cleric took was the "no edged weapons" schtick. And even that owes more to a single frieze in the Bayeux Tapestry than to any actual historical research; historical fighting clerics were quite happy to use swords. The cleric class actually owes more to early vampire hunter horror movies.

In 3e/3.5, clerics don't have a problem with edged weapons. They just aren't particularly well trained with weaponry, and edged weapons tend to require more training than blunt weapons (excluding some martial blunt weapons like warhammers and some simple edged weapons like sickles and daggers).

[Ashtagon]

In 3e/3.5, clerics don't have a problem with edged weapons. They just aren't particularly well trained with weaponry, and edged weapons tend to require more training than blunt weapons (excluding some martial blunt weapons like warhammers and some simple edged weapons like sickles and daggers).

I do actually know this.

[Raineh Daze]

Miko didn't have levels in samurai. Just saying.

I just find it odd to take an entire Crusades-era setting, complete with Crusades, and not even have one warrior that lets divine inspiration guide his strikes like that. :smalltongue:

[graymachine]

You're doing a Crusades-era thing, and you don't want to use ToB, when it explicitly contains something labelled 'Crusader'? :smallconfused:

Seems like the OP is wanting to avoid magic.

[Raineh Daze]

Seems like the OP is wanting to avoid magic.

PrC Paladin and Ranger.

[graymachine]

Any ideas on what martial classes I could use for a crusades style game? I'm already using the fighter, barbarian, and knight. I don't wanna use tob. But I'm open to using other d20 system material. Also, paladin and ranger are prestige classes in the game. Don't know if swashbuckler would fit. Any ideas?

Well, since the crusades started in 1095 CE and ended in 1798 CE, so that's a 703 year period, you might want to be a little more specific than that. I presume you mean the Third Crusade, in which Richard the Lionheart participated, since most people mean that when they say 'the Crusades', yes?

[graymachine]

PrC Paladin and Ranger.

Fair enough, although I would suggest that by making them PrCs, they are limiting magic to a significant degree. Thanks, though for not arguing that ToB isn't magic. :smalltongue:

[Ashtagon]

Well, since the crusades started in 1095 CE and ended in 1798 CE, so that's a 703 year period, you might want to be a little more specific than that. I presume you mean the Third Crusade, in which Richard the Lionheart participated, since most people mean that when they say 'the Crusades', yes?

Which crusade took place in 1798? Napoleon doesn't count.

[Gavinfoxx]

Seems like the OP is wanting to avoid magic.

Crusader and Warblade can be perfectly nonmagical. There are options using those that are less magical than Ranger, Paladin, etc. etc.

Only the Swordsage is locked-in to having a supernatural ability, on his class chassis.

[The Glyphstone]

Fair enough, although I would suggest that by making them PrCs, they are limiting magic to a significant degree. Thanks, though for not arguing that ToB isn't magic. :smalltongue:

Isn't Magic, or isn't Su/Sp? One of those can be argued till doomsday, but the other is pretty clear-cut.

[Raineh Daze]

Fair enough, although I would suggest that by making them PrCs, they are limiting magic to a significant degree. Thanks, though for not arguing that ToB isn't magic. :smalltongue:

Strictly speaking, it's not. I don't like explaining the obvious. However, Devoted Spirit is supernatural. Even if it's no more supernatural than the Paladin (could just add prerequisites for getting into Crusader, similar to PrC Paladin, though. Something like Intimidate 8 + Martial Study)

[graymachine]

Which crusade took place in 1798? Napoleon doesn't count.


The Crusades began with Pope Urban II's speech at the Church Council at Clermont in 1095. The Crusades, as institutionalised Holy War with papal sanction against the perceived enemies of Christendom, ended in 1798 with the expulsion of the Hospital of St John from Malta by Napoleon.

Website quoted found here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.nicholson/hn/CrusadeFAQs/f-time.html).

It seems reasonable to define the Crusades as institutionalized holy war with papal sanction.

[Ashtagon]

The Knights in Malta weren't really crusading so much as getting rich off investments across Europe. After their expulsion from Rhodes, they were merely a not-very-effective local anti-piracy force.

In any case, if institutionalised holy war with papal sanction counts, then Spain's wars against native South Americans would fit within that definition.

The conventionally understood definition is, loosely speaking,a series of wars that took place between European non-religious authorities (eg. kings and their vassals) with papal blessing and Muslims in the Near East between the 11th and 13th centuries. While technically yes, the Knights had papal blessing and yes, they were fighting Muslims, that isn't really what people commonly refer to when talking about the crusaders. Your seemingly-reasonable definition isn't actually that reasonable.

[ArcturusV]

Humanoid Hit Dice advancement, use adolescents to replicate the Children's Crusade? :smallbiggrin:

The Ninja class could be used as a stand in for the order of assassins. Since I don't think anyone really mentioned them and the Ninja's powers fit the myths about what those original Assassins were supposedly capable of.

[graymachine]

Crusader and Warblade can be perfectly nonmagical. There are options using those that are less magical than Ranger, Paladin, etc. etc.

Only the Swordsage is locked-in to having a supernatural ability, on his class chassis.


Strictly speaking, it's not. I don't like explaining the obvious. However, Devoted Spirit is supernatural. Even if it's no more supernatural than the Paladin (could just add prerequisites for getting into Crusader, similar to PrC Paladin, though. Something like Intimidate 8 + Martial Study)


Isn't Magic, or isn't Su/Sp? One of those can be argued till doomsday, but the other is pretty clear-cut.

I was partly joking, since it seemed people were coming out in droves to demand the reason for excluding ToB, presumably because of it's nature. To answer everyone, though, sure, by pedantic RAW, at least part of ToB isn't magic. It does, on the other hand, look, smell, taste, and feel like magic. The ToB-isn't-magic argument to me seems, "ToB doesn't work by magic! It works by magic blagic!"

In this context, it seems to be the OP's intent to minimize the presence of magical or outlandish effects, possibly to recreate the Crusades, hence Paladin and Ranger are PrCs and no ToB.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I was partly joking, since it seemed people were coming out in droves to demand the reason for excluding ToB, presumably because of it's nature. To answer everyone, though, sure, by pedantic RAW, at least part of ToB isn't magic. It does, on the other hand, look, smell, taste, and feel like magic. The ToB-isn't-magic argument to me seems, "ToB doesn't work by magic! It works by magic blagic swinging a sword hard!"

Fixed that for you there. Show me in Iron Heart where the magic is, or Tiger Claw? White Raven is no more magic than a Marshal, and Diamond Mind is about as magical as allowing Iaijutsu Focus.

Note: For Iron Heart, many will bring up Iron Heart Surge. I shrug my shoulders and go "meh" as shaking off a negative effect is hardly magical given the discipline's flavour of "I am ironfast determination incarnate"

[Raineh Daze]

Note: For Iron Heart, many will bring up Iron Heart Surge. I shrug my shoulders and go "meh" as shaking off a negative effect is hardly magical given the discipline's flavour of "I am ironfast determination incarnate"

Not exactly any more magical than a will, reflex, or fort save.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Not exactly any more magical than a will, reflex, or fort save.

Precisely, and the same for Diamond Mind's Concentration substituting maneuvers for saves.

[graymachine]

Fixed that for you there. Show me in Iron Heart where the magic is, or Tiger Claw? White Raven is no more magic than a Marshal, and Diamond Mind is about as magical as allowing Iaijutsu Focus.

Note: For Iron Heart, many will bring up Iron Heart Surge. I shrug my shoulders and go "meh" as shaking off a negative effect is hardly magical given the discipline's flavour of "I am ironfast determination incarnate"

As I stated, that is how ToB is to me. My point though, perhaps better stated here, is that whenever someone says books are banned there is usually little questioning involved, except when it is ToB. In that case, there usually seems to be some preemptive defensiveness over the nature of ToB.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by graymachine
My point though...is that whenever someone says books are banned there is usually little questioning involved, except when it is ToB. In that case, there usually seems to be some preemptive defensiveness over the nature of ToB.

I think graymachine hits it on the head here.

The OP has stated twice, as politely and respectfully as one could wish, that he prefers not to use ToB. So I'm not sure how the thread has suddenly become a discussion about ToB.

[Raineh Daze]

I'd feel intrigued to ask that about any book.

... except that psion one that's broken as hell, probably.

[MukkTB]

Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand are clearly magic. Technically supernatural abilities but still UNPOSSIBLE! in the real world. Claiming they aren't is ridiculous. However its not like ToB suddenly did something crazy by mixing some magic into its melee. In core the full attack classes are Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger. Half of them are magic. That last sentence cannot be stressed enough. A Crusader dong healing things and being martial looks pretty much like a Paladin healing things and being martial. The difference is that the Crusader is a bit better at his job, and considered by some to be more fun to play.

[BowStreetRunner]

Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand are clearly magic. Technically supernatural abilities but still UNPOSSIBLE! in the real world. Claiming they aren't is ridiculous. However its not like ToB suddenly did something crazy by mixing some magic into its melee. In core the full attack classes are Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger. Half of them are magic. That last sentence cannot be stressed enough. A Crusader dong healing things and being martial looks pretty much like a Paladin healing things and being martial. The difference is that the Crusader is a bit better at his job, and considered by some to be more fun to play.

Cleric can easily be one of the best martial classes in 3.5 when played right. Whether going straight-class and focusing on self-buffs, or dropping into a PrC like Warpriest, the Cleric can easily go toe-to-toe with any Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger in the melee game. Meanwhile, Paladins and Rangers already have magic of their own. Barbarians can easily pick it up with PrCs like Champion of Gwynharwyf, and Fighter-caster 'Gish' builds are absolutely legion.

If someone has an objection to ToB, fine. Not everyone likes every new mechanic the designers dropped into the game through Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum, etc. There is no reason to make a big deal if one or two splatbooks don't make it into your local game. On the other hand, I recommend players not be prejudicial against ToB classes merely because they seem to make melee combat more 'magic-oriented', as 3.5 already clearly does that without even needing ToB.

[Palanan]

For a slightly different take on the OP's question, I would suggest the Noble class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Your martial types will need highborn leaders, and the Noble might come in handy for that.

Along the same lines, there's also the Courtier from the Rokugan CS, perhaps for advisors or highborn parasites in a Noble's retinue. Why leave all the fun of scheming and plotting back at the palace, when you can take it on the road?

:smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

Oh, and as another mention, the Oriental Adventures Samurai could also fit with the crusader ideal. A few more skill points so they can be more well rounded "Warrior-Priest" types with some culture, if you wanted to take that route. Their Ancestral Daisho ability could be reworked to be more appropriate. Say, instead of a Katana and a Wakizashi, they Crusader "Samurai" has a Lance and Heavy Shield, or a Longsword and a Heavy Shield which they can similarly enchant with tithes and prayers. Their lack of Heavy Armor proficiency as a class feature fits the era where chain mail was the armor of the day rather than plate.

It's a bit of a refluffing and slightly altering one ability to fit the weapon types you want to feature. But hey, it could fit in quite well.

[Palanan]

I actually glanced at the Rokugan Samurai on the way to Courtier, but didn't have the insight of the previous poster.

:smallwink:

[Idhan]

I think of the crusades as being late 11th century to late 13th century: i.e., First Crusade to the fall of Acre. I suppose there were other crusades against the Hussites and such later up to the 15th century, but I don't see how the Knights of Malta holding onto an island counts as a crusade.


I do actually know this.

Sorry. I didn't mean to be patronizing if that's how you felt my reply was.

[sonofzeal]

As I stated, that is how ToB is to me. My point though, perhaps better stated here, is that whenever someone says books are banned there is usually little questioning involved, except when it is ToB. In that case, there usually seems to be some preemptive defensiveness over the nature of ToB.
Actually - I rarely see specific books being banned in the OP unless it's ToB. They may say core-only, but they rarely specifically strike out one particular book.

And if someone posted a thread, "help me make an awesome Wizard NO COMPLETE ARCANE", people would probably respond the same way they're doing here - asking why, showing how options presented fit the request, etc.

ToB defensiveness isn't special. ToB hate, however, is.

[ben-zayb]

As previously mentioned, Rogues almost always has a place in any sort of setting. In this case, they could play the petty small-town swindler type.

Oh, and certain Binder builds make great melee combatants, and fits with the flavor of those who are hunted on accounts of consorting with demons.

*hides behind a tower shield*

[blelliot]

I've decided to allow the following classes: barbarian, binder, cleric, druid, fighter, knight, marshall, rogue, scout, swashbuckler, and a mage class of my own design. A question I have is would. It be possible to modify the martial adepts into a different type of warrior class?

[Idhan]

As for swashbuckler, mentioned in the original post, I think it might be a decent class Genoese or Venetian marines, and for lightly armored Muslim irregulars such as Bedouin warriors.

As for modifying the martial adepts, what do you mean exactly? Getting rid of the actual maneuver mechanics from Tome of Battle and replacing them with other class features?

[blelliot]

As for swashbuckler, mentioned in the original post, I think it might be a decent class Genoese or Venetian marines, and for lightly armored Muslim irregulars such as Bedouin warriors.

As for modifying the martial adepts, what do you mean exactly? Getting rid of the actual maneuver mechanics from Tome of Battle and replacing them with other class features?

Yes. I wasnever a big fan of the "magic" that the martial adepts are capable of using. Does anyone think that the tob classes could stand without the manuevers?

[sonofzeal]

I've decided to allow the following classes: barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, knight, marshall, rogue, scout, and a mage class of my own design. A question I have is would. It be possible to modify the martial adepts into a different type of warrior class?
Quite easily - by altering the disciplines associated with each.

Crusader is heavy armor, cha-based. Warblade is medium armor, int-based. Swordsage is light armor, wis-based. For all three, the stuff depending on the mental attribute is pretty optional. Each has default disciplines attached to it, but by changing those disciplines you can customize the class easily.

Here's a table I made recently to give a simple sense for the nature of each discipline.

{TABLE]Discipline| Class
Desert Wind | Pyrokinetic Scout?
Devoted Spirit | Paladin
Diamond Mind | Swashbuckler
Iron Heart | Human Fighter
Setting Sun | Monk
Shadow Hand | Ninja
Stone Dragon | Dwarf Fighter
Tiger Claw | Barbarian/Ranger
White Raven | Knight/Marshal[/TABLE]

That campaign, based off a bronze-age society, decided to strike all but Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon. For you, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven are also possible. Assign disciplines as you feel appropriate, and you've got exactly what you want. :smallsmile:


(edit)

Yes. I wasnever a big fan of the "magic" that the martial adepts are capable of using. Does anyone think that the tob classes could stand without the manuevers?
Then simply strike Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand - those are the three semi-magical ones. Though Setting Sun has a decidedly eastern feel as well, so maybe that one too.

[blelliot]

Can I ask why? If it's the fluff, that's easily ignored/changed to fit.

martial adeptsare just, at least to me, another way to make a magic using base class. I'm trying to limit the base classes that us magic

[Spuddles]

The Knights in Malta weren't really crusading so much as getting rich off investments across Europe. After their expulsion from Rhodes, they were merely a not-very-effective local anti-piracy force.

In any case, if institutionalised holy war with papal sanction counts, then Spain's wars against native South Americans would fit within that definition.

The conventionally understood definition is, loosely speaking,a series of wars that took place between European non-religious authorities (eg. kings and their vassals) with papal blessing and Muslims in the Near East between the 11th and 13th centuries. While technically yes, the Knights had papal blessing and yes, they were fighting Muslims, that isn't really what people commonly refer to when talking about the crusaders. Your seemingly-reasonable definition isn't actually that reasonable.

My favorite crusade was the Albigensian Crusade.


Quite easily - by altering the disciplines associated with each.

Crusader is heavy armor, cha-based. Warblade is medium armor, int-based. Swordsage is light armor, wis-based. For all three, the stuff depending on the mental attribute is pretty optional. Each has default disciplines attached to it, but by changing those disciplines you can customize the class easily.

Here's a table I made recently to give a simple sense for the nature of each discipline.

{TABLE]Discipline| Class
Desert Wind | Pyrokinetic Scout?
Devoted Spirit | Paladin
Diamond Mind | Swashbuckler
Iron Heart | Human Fighter
Setting Sun | Monk
Shadow Hand | Ninja
Stone Dragon | Dwarf Fighter
Tiger Claw | Barbarian/Ranger
White Raven | Knight/Marshal[/TABLE]

That campaign, based off a bronze-age society, decided to strike all but Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon. For you, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven are also possible. Assign disciplines as you feel appropriate, and you've got exactly what you want. :smallsmile:


(edit)

Then simply strike Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand - those are the three semi-magical ones. Though Setting Sun has a decidedly eastern feel as well, so maybe that one too.

I don't think his problem is a teleporting monk, it's that a warblade shouts "wolf climbing the mountain" and executes an ability extremely similar in presentation as a spell, complete with expending it like a vancian spell.

Mechanically, tob is put together just like magic.

[sonofzeal]

I don't think his problem is a teleporting monk, it's that a warblade shouts "wolf climbing the mountain"
Have you read medieval fencing texts? Not all the ToB terms are made up. :smalltongue:


..and executes an ability extremely similar in presentation as a spell
Hmmm...

*grabs a random Iron Heart maneuver*

"Through focus, raw power, and expert aim, you make a mighty attack against your foe, leaving him temporarily knocked senseless by your attack. The proper application of force to just the right part of a foe’s anatomy allows you to disrupt his actions. While he stumbles back, senseless, you press the advantage. You make a single melee attack as part of this strike. If this attack hits, the target takes melee damage normally and must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + your Str modifier) or be dazed for 1 round."

...nope, I don't see how that's similar to a spell. Unless you're talking book layout, which seems like a remarkably bizarre issue to make a fuss about.

[Eslin]

Going to have to agree with sonofzeal here - ToB is only superficially built like magic. Three of the styles (desert wind, devoted spirit and shadow hand) are supernatural, which makes sense - can't really imitate a paladin without supernatural abilities.

The other six are extraordinary, and they're set out like spells because that's the logical way to set out a series of martial abilities that you can grow more skilled with as you level. The 9 levels of spells from 1-17 was already a well established piece of player knowledge, so they decided to ground the system on that to stop it being too confusing to new players.

They were right, too - I love both magic of incarnum and tome of battle, but the latter is a whole lot easier to understand. All tome of battle is is an alternate melee system, one that's a whole lot more fun and engaging than 'I autoattack again'. It's not magical unless you use the supernatural schools, and though the non magical ones are sometimes beyond what most human beings are capable of, so are the fighter and rogue.

A level 20 fighter can repeatedly sustain falls from terminal velocity, a ranger is able to track a falcon on a cloudy day and a rogue can do more damage with a toothpick than you would take from spending a minute set on fire. D&D is a great system, but it has never been one with a grounding in reality - which is why calling tome of battle magical is a bit silly, if ToB is magical then so is every other class in the game.

[Spuddles]

Have you read medieval fencing texts? Not all the ToB terms are made up. :smalltongue:


Hmmm...

*grabs a random Iron Heart maneuver*

"Through focus, raw power, and expert aim, you make a mighty attack against your foe, leaving him temporarily knocked senseless by your attack. The proper application of force to just the right part of a foe’s anatomy allows you to disrupt his actions. While he stumbles back, senseless, you press the advantage. You make a single melee attack as part of this strike. If this attack hits, the target takes melee damage normally and must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + your Str modifier) or be dazed for 1 round."

...nope, I don't see how that's similar to a spell. Unless you're talking book layout, which seems like a remarkably bizarre issue to make a fuss about.

Between the layout, terminology (target, range, etc), maneuver levels, maneuver level progression, and quasi-vancian expenditure mechanic, you have to admit, ToB looks a lot like magic. In actual play, a lot of it doesn't feel like magic. But it doesn't feel like a fighter or barbarian either.

[Eslin]

That'd be because barbarian and fighter are both incredibly boring in comparison. I agree that it's set out like magic - which makes perfect sense, as magic has consistently proved to be more fun to use than melee because it has actual options - but I don't understand why people think that's bad.

[sonofzeal]

Let's not make this thread another ToB fight. We already have two threads there now.


I do, however, repeat my recommendation that the OP consider Swordsage and Warblade with a pared down set of disciplines. Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand simply do not fit in this setting. Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw could totally be around though. The rest, eh, DM judgement call.

By changing the disciplines available, the DM can permit things his players might enjoy, while preserving his setting and removing the parts of ToB that are most problematic to him.

[Ashtagon]

I think the biggest problem with allowing ToB is that it instantly obsoletes all the core melee classes, and most of the expanded game melee base classes. Swashbuckler, for example, doesn't really have a good match within Tob, without some heavy refluffing, which means that players will choose another trope to play rather than be underpowered.

That obsolescence can be countered by including the vast array of homebrew martial disciplines of course, but that requires a lot of work. It ends up simply being quicker and easier to just say no.

The OP said that paladin and ranger were going to be prestige classes, which implies that ToB, if allowed at all, should also be prestige (ie. homebrewed "prestige crusader" and "prestige warblade" classes).

[Spuddles]

If all the half casting classes out there provided full initiator progression (shining blade of heironeus, war priest, spellsword, etc), they would be much MUCH more attractive.

[Raineh Daze]

The OP said that paladin and ranger were going to be prestige classes, which implies that ToB, if allowed at all, should also be prestige (ie. homebrewed "prestige crusader" and "prestige warblade" classes).

Hm, something like [Skill Associated With School] 8 and Martial Study? Or if he plans to go to higher levels, 13 and Martial Study x2.

[blelliot]

[QUOTE=Ashtago

The OP said that paladin and ranger were going to be prestige classes, which implies that ToB, if allowed at all, should also be prestige (ie. homebrewed "prestige crusader" and "prestige warblade" classes).[/QUOTE]
I would be ok with the tob classes being reimagined into prestiges. Anyone have ideas on this currently?

[Raineh Daze]

I would be ok with the tob classes being reimagined into prestiges. Anyone have ideas on this currently?

Well, my main idea would be to have it require a minimum Initiate Level (say, 5) and Martial Study. That means no-one can get into the class until level 11. If you want to tighten up things a bit, and give more to play with, require that they have IL 5 and both a maneuver and a stance from the class they wish to enter.

If you want it to be entered at level 6 instead of 11, then something like Intimidate 8 and one maneuver from the Devoted Spirit school for Crusader?

[Ashtagon]

I would be ok with the tob classes being reimagined into prestiges. Anyone have ideas on this currently?

The Pr pally/ranger are designed to be entered at 5th level. So I'd make the prereqs for "prestige initiator":


BAB: +4.
Feats: Martial Study.
Skills: Choose your three martial lores. You must have 8 ranks in one of these key skills, and 4 ranks in the other two.


I'd also ban Shadow Hand and Setting Sun for European characters, and possibly also for Arabian ones. Depending on the interaction of class skills and key skills for each discipline, the skill ranks may need to be revised.

[sonofzeal]

The Pr pally/ranger are designed to be entered at 5th level. So I'd make the prereqs for "prestige initiator":


BAB: +4.
Feats: Martial Study.
Skills: Choose your three martial lores. You must have 8 ranks in one of these key skills, and 4 ranks in the other two.


I'd also ban Shadow Hand and Setting Sun for European characters, and possibly also for Arabian ones. Depending on the interaction of class skills and key skills for each discipline, the skill ranks may need to be revised.
Looks good to me!

Paladins are limited, so I'd consider striking Devoted Spirit as well. Desert Wind might work as an Arabian-specific, with White Raven as European-specific, if you're into that.

[Palanan]

Actually an interesting idea. I had the notion of using warblade to represent an advanced duelist or swordsman, but never considered the prestige route.

I'm actually not that familiar with how it works on paladins and rangers. Is Ashtagon's suggestion pretty much the concept in a nutshell?

[Ashtagon]

Actually an interesting idea. I had the notion of using warblade to represent an advanced duelist or swordsman, but never considered the prestige route.

I'm actually not that familiar with how it works on paladins and rangers. Is Ashtagon's suggestion pretty much the concept in a nutshell?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

I based my list of prerequisites on the equivalent items required for Pr/paladin and Pr/ranger (from Unearthed Arcana).

In full, the prestige warblade class:

Prestige Warblade

This class should only be used in campaigns in which the ToB base classes are banned. Serious thought should be given to banning "initiator" prestige classes as well. It works well in campaigns in which the base ranger and base paladin classes have been removed and replaced with their prestige equivalents.

Hit Die: d12.

Requirements

To qualify to become a prestige warblade, a character must fulfil all the following criteria.


Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Martial Lore 4 ranks.
Feats: Martial Study x2.


Class Skills

The prestige warblade's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Martial Lore† (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

† Martial Lore should be added as a class skill for fighters, paladins (including prestige paladins), rangers (including prestige rangers), barbarians, and rogues.

Class Features

(class table goes up to level 15, just like Pr paladin and pr ranger)

BAB: Good
Fort Save: Good
Ref Save: Poor
Will Save: Poor

Specials Abilities: All special abilities are gained at the same class level, and with the same benefits, as for the base warblade class, except as noted below.

Stance Mastery: This would normally be received at 20th level. It is not available to the prestige warblade.

Martial Disciplines: This follows the pattern of the base warblade class exactly, except as noted below:

Initiator Level: Note that non-initiator class levels count half towards your initiator level, so a fighter 5/warblade 15 is initiator level 17, which is just enough to be able to obtain level 9 martial manoeuvres.

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Note: I'm not exactly happy about the funky prerequisites thing, but I'm not sure how else to go without making it too easy for people to get into this class.

Edit:

I got rid of the skill prereqs and just made it Martial Study feat times two. That unhoses the fighter's poor skills and simultaneously plays to its strength (feats).

[Raineh Daze]

Fighters are still in trouble with their measly 2+ skillpoints. :smallconfused:

[Idhan]

I think that allowing the "simple variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#otherClassVariants)" barbarian who exchanges rage for ranger archery combat style feats might be good for representing light-to-medium horse archers (turkopoles, mamluk horse archers, Seljuk cavalry, skythikon), since rangers are prestigified in this campaign. (In fact, medium armor would include almost everyone in the era, as far as I know. Knights and mamluks generally wore mail hauberks, and plate armor lay beyond the crusades period. Maybe Byzantine cataphracts with heavy lamellar klivanion might count as wearing banded armor or something?)

[Ashtagon]

Fighters are still in trouble with their measly 2+ skillpoints. :smallconfused:

I got rid of the skill prereqs and just made it Martial Study feat times two. That unhoses the fighter's poor skills and simultaneously plays to its strength (feats).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon
*Prestige Warblade*

Very cool, thank you. I'll definitely give this some thought.