Two-Weapons, Two Builds - seeking advice

[Hytheter]

So, even though Fighters apaprently suck, I like the look of the straightforward punching everything approach to combat and the huge amount of feats. Recently I've been thinking of playing a two-weapon fighter. I've got a couple of builds here that I'm kinda tossing up. They could probably be improved somewhat, so if possible I'd like some help.

My group plays with a 32 point for point buy system, so both of these will probably have their abilities at 18/16/16/10/10/10 or something similar, investing into Dexterity at levels 4 8 and 12 for the appropriate TWF feats.
I may also invest in a Level of Barbarian (for pounce, and rage I guess), which doesn't change all that much except delaying some feats by a level

The first build is just regular fighter, straighforward build using a double weapon for TWF and just putting everything into maximizing the output from that.
(F=Fighter Bonus feat, H=Human Bonus Feat)
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword)
1F Weapon Focus (Two-Bladed Sword)
1H Two-Weapon Fighting
2F Two-Weapon Defense
3 Combat Reflexes
4F Weapon Specialization (Two-Bladed Sword)
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
6F Double Hit
8F Greater Weapon Focus (Two-Bladed Sword)
9 Improved Two-Weapon Defense
10F ???
12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12F Greater Weapon Specialisation (Two-Bladed Sword)
14F Greater Two-Weapon Defense
From there I'm not really sure at all
As I said though a level in Barbarian might help. In that case I might push Greater 2WF up to my 10th Level Fighter Feat (since I'll have BAB 11 then) and put greater two weapon defense in its place

The other, which may be able to achieve a better damage output, uses a Fighter Variant that gets rid of the bonus feats and replaces them with a Rogue's sneak attack. As I understand it Sneak Attack goes nicely with TWF builds, and so I've ended up with something like this:
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
1H Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
3 Combat Reflexes
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
18 Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
+1D6 Sneak Attack on odd numbered levels
Not really sure on Weapon Specializations on this one with Sneak Attack providing most of the damage by then but idk
Its worth noting that this variant can be combined with another variant called a Thug which gives extra skills and skill points with basically no cost (you lose a bonus feat... which I'm already replacing). edit: oh wait you lose armor proficiency but with high Dex and a level in Barbarian its pretty much a non-issue. /edit. Both variants can be found here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)

So what do you think? What am I doing wrong (probably everything)?

[Marcus Amakar]

You’re spot on in stating that sneak attack synergises well with TWF and in terms of damage output, the second build is much better.

The stackability of the Thug and Sneak Attack Variants is debateable as the SA variants removes all of the bonus feats and the Thug variant states you don’t gain the fighter bonus feat at level 1. Still, I’d personally allow it as it’s not really overpowered.

In terms of improving the build, I’d recommend putting in 3 levels of rogue with the penetrating strike ACF. You’ll lose 1 BAB and on average 6 hp, but you’ll be able to deal half sneak attack damage to creatures usually immune, in addition to the bonus skill points, trap-finding and evasion. In addition I’d

So overall, I’d make the build something like this.

Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Rogue (Penetrating Strike) 3/Fighter (SA and Thug variants) X

Feats:
1 Two-weapon fighting
H Weapon Focus (X)
3 Martial Study (Steel Wind)
6 Martial Stance (Punishing Stance)
9 Improved Two-weapon Fighting
12 Greater Two-weapon Fighting
15 Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
18 Staggering Strike

The Martial Study feat allows you to use the Steel Wind manoeuvre once per encounter, but this is kinda sub-optimal as if you need to move and attack you’re better off charging and full attacking. However, taking this allows you to take the Martial Stance feat and so gain Punishing stance. You can be in this stance constantly and it’ll give you +d6 damage to all your attacks at the cost of -2 AC. As they say, the best defence…

Iron Heart Surge is great even if you only get it once per encounter, and at 18th level, the damage you can put out and the number of attacks means Staggering Strike should be constantly affecting your opponent.

[Darrin]

The first build is just regular fighter, straighforward build using a double weapon for TWF and just putting everything into maximizing the output from that.
(F=Fighter Bonus feat, H=Human Bonus Feat)
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword)
1F Weapon Focus (Two-Bladed Sword)


You don't need an exotic double weapon to do this. A quarterstaff (1d6/1d6) is almost indistinguishable from a two-bladed sword (1d8/1d8), particularly at higher levels where your base weapon damage doesn't matter so much.

If you absolutely have to go with something exotic, consider Dragonsplits (MMIV p. 151): one-handed weapons that work with Power Attack, but count as light weapons for TWF. You'll have to ask your DM to give them a price.



2F Two-Weapon Defense
9 Improved Two-Weapon Defense


No. If you want an AC bonus, you'll get better mileage out of Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt.

I would consider adding Travel Devotion (taken multiple times, if need be) and then probably doing something with Power Attack. If you want to go with Dragonsplits, then consider Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow and Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting. This lets you treat them as two-handed weapons for Power Attack.



The other, which may be able to achieve a better damage output, uses a Fighter Variant that gets rid of the bonus feats and replaces them with a Rogue's sneak attack. As I understand it Sneak Attack goes nicely with TWF builds, and so I've ended up with something like this:
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
1H Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
3 Combat Reflexes
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
18 Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword)
+1D6 Sneak Attack on odd numbered levels
Not really sure on Weapon Specializations on this one with Sneak Attack providing most of the damage by then but idk


I'd grab Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) before getting into the Weapon Specialization feat tree. If you're not opposed to being evil, then Maiming Strike (Exemplars of Evil) can also be quite nifty.

For more general advice: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585).

[Ken Adams]

a 32 point buy is fine but if you want to build a two weap fighter i prefer to use a dex fighter. i also prefer useing scimmys or kukris with keen bc they would have a 25% chance for a crit and you can get like 6+ attacks a round with them very easy. also think about takeing levels in dervish(sp) bc you can widdle the attack penalty down to 0-0 if you take like 2-4 levels in dervish,also dervish will let you move around more to get better flanks while not triggering ao's. also if you think about moveing slightly think about a level or two of scout to add a couple d6's to damage and get another boost to your ao.

[HalfQuart]

If you like the Dex route, you could even switch to Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw.