elusive target fight scenario

[darioun]

Hi guys!

I'm conducting this thought experiment on a ~lvl8 elusive human melee fighter using a greatsword. I thought of going scout 1 for the skills and skirmish dmg, barbarian for rage, fighter 6 for feats. we're playing a low magic RAW game with only a few books available (PH, DM, CW, CAdv, CDiv, MIC, some MMs), so pretty basic.

feats:
1: scout1: Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Dodge
2: scout1, barb1: Fast Movement, Illiteracy, Rage 1/day
3: scout1, barb1, fighter1: Mobility, Combat Expertise
4: scout1, barb1, fighter2: Power Attack
5: scout1, barb1, fighter3: -
6: scout1, barb1, fighter4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Cleave
7: scout1, barb1, fighter5: -
8: scout1, barb1, fighter6: Elusive Target
BAB +7/+2

Here comes the actual question:
I'd go for Boots of Speed, so having a third attack on each full attack, using the Belt of Battle for an additional movement as a swift action.

Say I stand right in front of an enemy (after a charge or what not), so in the next round I'd do the following:
Activate the Boots of Speed (free) for haste and dodge bonus, attack with Combat Expertise to the max, giving me ~+5 dodge bonus to AC, with Mobility and Dodge boosting the AC to +5+4+1+1+Armor (should be around 29, I wanna be as mobile as possible, so stick with light armor, mithral breastplate +3 or something...).
Using a Belt of Battle swift action, I take a move action, enemy gets an AoO, misses me due to the whole dodge/elusiveness, I try to trip him (the built is of course based mainly on STR and CON), most probably succeed, thus he is prone. I continue moving until I'm in the best position (flanking, maybe try to trip a second/third enemy and what not), and continue my full attack, meaning 2 remaining attacks with the one from haste.

Does this make sense? Is this even possible?

After the whole bla bla above, I can condense the question down to a simpler question: Can you take a swift/free action during a full attack action?

Furthermore, can you maybe suggest ways to go from there?

Cheerio, Darioun

PS: Using the barbs rage can of course only be done after those manoeuvres, else the Combat Expertise won't work.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, you can take swift and free actions in the middle of other actions, to answer your shortened question.

As for where to go... I'd drop the specialization feat entirely and use a guisarme or spiked chain - a weapon that can trip and has reach. I'd also drop Cleave.

I'd also get rid of most of those Fighter levels. And actually pick up Improved Trip.

MIC is available, so get rid of the Mobility feat (or at least don't take it so early... it's only there for Elusive Target which you're getting much later) and just get the Mobility enhancement on your light armor. It's a +1 cost and gives you the feat. Easy.

Put more levels into Scout perhaps, if you can get skirmish up to +2d6, you can take Staggering Strike, which is a great debuff.

[darioun]

Improved trip is a very good idea, thanks!

We already have a spiked chain master, so I rather not use that, even if I know it's probably the best weapon in game...

As for mobility, we houseruled that we can't use armor enchantments for fulfilling prerequisites, as we'd have to drop the feat once the armor is sundered or stuff like that. I think that's actually pretty ok.

I'll look into staggering strike, sounds interesting! Problem with scout only is the low BAB. Let's see about that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm guessing your DM is going to be unreasonable and stuck in his ways despite running a "RAW" game, but if it helps your case for Mobility armor (and really, might be a good idea to let him know in general so you don't lose your armor...), he might be interested to note that by *RAW* you cannot sunder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder) the armor someone else is wearing.


Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.)

Step 2

Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

Step 3

Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield.

If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage.

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

[Uncle Pine]

After the whole bla bla above, I can condense the question down to a simpler question: Can you take a swift/free action during a full attack action?

Yes, you can take swift/free actions during a full attack action, but as far as I know you can't take a move action during a full attack action. Hence, you can't use the belt of battle in this way because it grants an extra move action that you can't use because you are already full attacking. However, Travel Devotion from Complete Champion lets you move up to your speed as a swift action for 1 minute and you can use it while full attacking because you are moving without using a move action.

[darioun]

Interesting indeed, I didn't know that... sure won't help though, since it was a majority decision on not allowing any prereqs fulfilled by items, not even for ability scores. Well, you gotta play the hand you're dealt ;-)
As for staggering strike, it has sneak ability as a prereq, is skirmish really equal to that?

[darioun]

Yes, you can take swift/free actions during a full attack action, but as far as I know you can't take a move action during a full attack action. Hence, you can't use the belt of battle in this way because it grants an extra move action that you can't use because you are already full attacking. However, Travel Devotion from Complete Champion lets you move up to your speed as a swift action for 1 minute and you can use it while full attacking because you are moving without using a move action.

But with the belt of battle I'm using a swift action to move, not a move action!?

[Uncle Pine]

But with the belt of battle I'm using a swift action to move, not a move action!?

No, you are using a swift action to activate the item. Then, you are granted an extra move action for the round, which you can't use because you can't use move actions while full attacking.

EDIT: As a sidenote, if you can't use the armor to get Mobility, I think you could easily drop Weapon Specialization to make room for Travel Devotion. Here (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Travel_Devotion)'s a link to the feat if you don't have Complete Champion and you want to compare the wording of the belt of battle and that of the feat.

[darioun]

No, you are using a swift action to activate the item. Then, you are granted an extra move action for the round, which you can't use because you can't use move actions while full attacking.

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Say I'm out of combat by 6 tiles, activate my belt of battle for an *extra* move action, move to the enemy, I still have a full round (minus the swift) to conduct a full attack. Should be the same for a movement during a full attack. Have in mind that you can also make a 5ft step *during* a full attack.
Not that I don't believe you, but do you maybe have a reference on that? Would greatly influence my current char (not the one above) as well.

[darioun]

EDIT: As a sidenote, if you can't use the armor to get Mobility, I think you could easily drop Weapon Specialization to make room for Travel Devotion. Here (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Travel_Devotion)'s a link to the feat if you don't have Complete Champion and you want to compare the wording of the belt of battle and that of the feat.

No Complete Champion. If that's the only source mentioning this, it wouldn't matter to our campaign (hopefully) :smallsmile:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Interesting indeed, I didn't know that... sure won't help though, since it was a majority decision on not allowing any prereqs fulfilled by items, not even for ability scores. Well, you gotta play the hand you're dealt ;-)
As for staggering strike, it has sneak ability as a prereq, is skirmish really equal to that?

Yes. IIRC there's a sidebar in Scout saying so explicitly.

They don't even let you meet ability score pre-reqs with items? Man...that sucks.

[Uncle Pine]

Not that I don't believe you, but do you maybe have a reference on that? Would greatly influence my current char (not the one above) as well.

No problem. Here you are:


Full-round actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions)
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.


Actions in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)
Full-Round Action
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).

Emphasis mine. You can't use a move action during a full-round action, but you can combine the latter with free actions. A swift action is treated as a free action, except that you can only take a single swift action each round.

[darioun]

Emphasis mine. You can't use a move action during a full-round action, but you can combine the latter with free actions. A swift action is treated as a free action, except that you can only take a single swift action each round.

This I know. It's the same source that states that you can fight defensively by taking -4 on attack for a +2 on AC. Which is not true, because there is a feat (and probably items) which allows up to -5 for +5.
At any rate, I discussed the whole thing with our DM, and his rule is, that it's ok to burn a "swift move action" when full attacking, at least before the first attack (only happened twice so far, as I just got hold of my glorious quicksilver boots). Maybe the german book (we're from austria playing the german version) which I don't have at hand now states it differently.

[darioun]

Yes. IIRC there's a sidebar in Scout saying so explicitly.

They don't even let you meet ability score pre-reqs with items? Man...that sucks.

It's ok once you're used to it. Just makes a lot a lot slower... cool @ scout, makes the whole idea come together perfectly.

[darioun]

You can't use a move action during a full-round action, but you can combine the latter with free actions. A swift action is treated as a free action, except that you can only take a single swift action each round.

i might have misread you there... DURING a full attack I can accept. using the swift action for a move action BEFORE or AFTER a full attack should be possible however, don't you think?
example: i make a full attack, then activate the belt of battle for another full round action, so either another full attack OR a full round action to withdraw. same should be valid if i activate the move action, right?

[DegenPaladin]

You cant make the move action from Belt of Battle in the middle of a full attack action, but you most certainly use the move action before or after the full attack action to do whatever you please. Thats the whole point of the item. Hes sighting the basic rules of combat, which are trumped by specific rules of the item. You are granted an extra move action to do with as you please.

[Uncle Pine]

i might have misread you there... DURING a full attack I can accept. using the swift action for a move action BEFORE or AFTER a full attack should be possible however, don't you think?

Yes, moving before or after a full attack is perfectly fine by RAW. Anyway, if your DM rules that you can take the move action during the full attack, go for it.

[darioun]

Yes, moving before or after a full attack is perfectly fine by RAW. Anyway, if your DM rules that you can take the move action during the full attack, go for it.

sounds good, thanks. i guess the DM won't houserule anything, i don't have the belt of battle yet, but i plan to have it asap. we're gonna stick to the rules i suppose.

another quick question: what's your understanding of the quicksilver boots? do they allow a move before/after a full attack?

[Uncle Pine]

The quicksilver boots are tricky, because of the way their effect is worded:
- they are different from the belt of battle, because the swift action you use to activate the boots include the extra movement (because "When you activate these boots, you can move a distance up to your land speed"),
- they also differ from Travel Devotion, because even if you actually move with a swift action, the boots' description states that you are doing it "as if using a move action".

This is the RAW, and it doesn't make much sense. In fact, by RAW you could move during a full attack using the boots because it's a swift action but you can't because the effect of this swift action is treated as a move action, which you can't use during a full attack.
However, by RAI, the "as if using a move action" part was probably used by the author to emphasize the fact that the quicksilver boots don't create a [teleportation] effect and you have to follow all the normal rules for movements (AoOs, difficult terrain, etc.), as explained after a few lines. This would mean that you can use the quicksilver boots to move during a full attack, because the "move action" part was just bad wording. In my opinion, your DM will be more inclined to allow this reading of the boots than homebrew the belt, so try to talk to him.

[darioun]

This is the RAW, and it doesn't make much sense. In fact, by RAW you could move during a full attack using the boots because it's a swift action but you can't because the effect of this swift action is treated as a move action, which you can't use during a full attack.
However, by RAI, the "as if using a move action" part was probably used by the author to emphasize the fact that the quicksilver boots don't create a [teleportation] effect and you have to follow all the normal rules for movements (AoOs, difficult terrain, etc.), as explained after a few lines. This would mean that you can use the quicksilver boots to move during a full attack, because the "move action" part was just bad wording. In my opinion, your DM will be more inclined to allow this reading of the boots than homebrew the belt, so try to talk to him.

I don't know if I want to talk our DM into anything, else he might just let us walk us into something nasty. wouldn't be the first time :smallsigh: :smallbiggrin: ...

I just had a lengthy discussion with one of my fellow travellers (not the current DM), and he would not even allow the quicksilver boots to gain a free movement before or after a full attack, not even speaking of during...

I can live with not having the possibility to move during a full attack apart from the 5ft step (I could still attack defensivly once with combat expertise for the extra dodge AC and then move to trip some enemies for the next round), but I would really love to have a free move from the boots before or after a full attack. If you could confirm that the before/after movement is possible with those boots, that would already help a lot. Thanks!

[Uncle Pine]

Oh, sorry then. I must have missed the actual point.

Yes, of course you can use the quicksilver boots to move before or after any full-round action, including full attack. You can always use any number of free actions and a single swift action in addition to your normal full-round action (or standard+move action). Should you need some reference, you can find everything I just said in the PHB or in the page from the SRD I previously linked.
Actually, be careful: I'm not sure the PHB mentions swift actions, because IIRC those were invented when the Complete series got published. Should another player or the DM mention this, have them read the SRD and you should be fine.

[darioun]

Oh, sorry then. I must have missed the actual point.

No, you didn't miss the point at all, I was also trying to figure out if I could do a move during a full attack. It just sounded at first that not even a move before or after a full attack. Fair enough that that's only possible with complete champion stuff that we don't have... unfortunately, else I'd have played a scout/ranger with full full skirmish and full favoured enemies. At any rate, since the move before the full attack works my current lvl8 ranger/fighter TWF can still cause some trouble for the DM compared to our half orc spiked chain master, the cleric, the monk/rogue/swashbuckler and the mighty paladin.
Thanks for everything!
Cheers, Darioun