Arcane vs Divine vs Psionics

[Gwazi Magnum]

Which of these three do you find to be better, more effective or simply more fun to play and why do you?

Bonus Question:
Imagine someone went Mystic Theurge route (or any presitge classes than combines spell casters) where they grew to master both arcane and divine spells, how would that compare to Psionics?

[Mithril Leaf]

Arcane Spells are the strongest, Divine Spells have the easiest Metamagic, Psionics is the funnest to play. Taking a mystic theurge route that ended up with nines in arcane or divine would be stronger than psionics no matter what the other side ended up with. Psionics is more balanced than casting, which means it's weaker.

[Fyermind]

Well divine and psionics both have casters that can learn things not from their domain easily (archivist and erudite).

Generally I think the most powerful characters come from doing both.

Archivists (hi hexers, give me all you spells), Erudites (well my, dragons cast spells of cleric lists), Rainbow Servant warmages (which cleric spell did you need?) etc.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well divine and psionics both have casters that can learn things not from their domain easily (archivist and erudite).

Generally I think the most powerful characters come from doing both.

Archivists (hi hexers, give me all you spells), Erudites (well my, dragons cast spells of cleric lists), Rainbow Servant warmages (which cleric spell did you need?) etc.

I was referring primarily to spell lists. Any time you pick up everything good off something else, that's gonna be great. You can claim that X character who casts divine spells is better than Y character that casts arcane spells, and it can be true for anything. However, in general Arcane spells are the strongest, followed by Divine Spells, followed by Psionic powers.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I am mostly asking in terms of the spell tree's themselves.

Though another question this has raised, could an effective build be made that was Arcane, Divine and Psionic? (Assuming typical one class per level, so no bonus house rule variants like Gestalt).

[Urist]

Psionics does have a few neat tricks. Psionic Save Game, Quintessence, Schism, etc. It's also much, much easier to blast with psionics competently than with arcane and Divine(without centering your whole build on it).

[Raineh Daze]

I am mostly asking in terms of the spell tree's themselves.

Though another question this has raised, could an effective build be made that was Arcane, Divine and Psionic? (Assuming typical one class per level, so no bonus house rule variants like Gestalt).

Probably. I'm not sure of the specifics on how it could work, but you might be able to get something out of StP Erudite, Ur-Priest and a theurge class. Can't remember if there's a Divine/Psionic Theurge, though.

[MrNobody]

I think arcane and divine magic have nearly the same power and effectiveness. The same for core arcane/divine classe. If we come to other sources, i think arcane offers more opportunity (thinking about warlock, hexblade, spellthief, beguiler...), since dread necromancer and other base divine classes are no more than specialized clerics.

Psionics is all a different matter: i loved it in 3.0 when every "school" was linked to a different ability. I've always thought it gave A LOT OF flavour. Then Wizard decided to take this away, giving in exchange the possibility to augment your powers: good for the "in game" mechanics, but not really a fair trade for flavour and fun.

[Mithril Leaf]

Probably. I'm not sure of the specifics on how it could work, but you might be able to get something out of StP Erudite, Ur-Priest and a theurge class. Can't remember if there's a Divine/Psionic Theurge, though.

Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b). If you use Beholder Mage for the arcane and early entry tricks you can probably pick up three nines.

[gooddragon1]

Arcane Spells are the strongest, Divine Spells have the easiest Metamagic, Psionics is the funnest to play. Taking a mystic theurge route that ended up with nines in arcane or divine would be stronger than psionics no matter what the other side ended up with. Psionics is more balanced than casting, which means it's weaker.

Yep, this is pretty much a complete summary. Though it may be worth noting that in some campaigns it's nice to have access to your whole spell list without having to learn them (cleric and druid).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b). If you use Beholder Mage for the arcane and early entry tricks you can probably pick up three nines.

What would those tricks be?

Cause I'd be very interested in making a character who by level 20 can cast level 9 spells from divine, arcane and psionics. Legit though, not in the kind of 'Illusions' or 'Sorcerer casts spell as divine'.

Edit: Actually I see this question leading to a long build conversation that can derail this topic of it's point so I'll make a new topic for this and post the link here once it's made.

Link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15316453#post15316453

[ZamielVanWeber]

Arcane spells are not as powerful as powerful as Divine spells, but Arcane as access to many more spells types/effects/stuff in general it comes out stronger as long as the player/class cab take advantage of this. Psionics is sitting between the two: flexible with a couple of strong effects. I would say it is the weakest of the three of primary casters and the steongest of your party just wants another caster.

[Mithril Leaf]

What would those tricks be?

Cause I'd be very interested in making a character who by level 20 can cast level 9 spells from divine, arcane and psionics. Legit though, not in the kind of 'Illusions' or 'Sorcerer casts spell as divine'.

Not sure of situation specific ones but if some of them would probably be having a bard that boosts your hit dice by a bunch then getting hit with psychic reformation to reach skill prereqs, a PAO or Mind Switch -> Astral Seed, and then maybe ardent for access. Depends on what you want to do exactly. Maybe some southern magician.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Not sure of situation specific ones but if some of them would probably be having a bard that boosts your hit dice by a bunch then getting hit with psychic reformation to reach skill prereqs, a PAO or Mind Switch -> Astral Seed, and then maybe ardent for access. Depends on what you want to do exactly. Maybe some southern magician.

I'm sorry, but so many terms got thrown in there to quickly that you lost me.

[Snowbluff]

Arcane spells are a little stronger than powers, but psionics have a bunch if mechanical rules that give them an edge.

For the record, I don't think psionics are more fun in general than spells. Psionics focus balances meta mechanics for them, but I'd rather not put up with focusing.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Arcane spells are a little stronger than powers, but psionics have a bunch if mechanical rules that give them an edge.

For the record, I don't think psionics are more fun in general than spells. Psionics focus balances meta mechanics for them, but I'd rather not put up with focusing.

Understandable, I have yet to really look into (so understand) focusing myself.
However, personally I like the power point system if for nothing more than nostalgia for being like a mana point system.

[SaintRidley]

I think arcane and divine magic have nearly the same power and effectiveness. The same for core arcane/divine classe. If we come to other sources, i think arcane offers more opportunity (thinking about warlock, hexblade, spellthief, beguiler...), since dread necromancer and other base divine classes are no more than specialized clerics.


Just a note - Dread Necromancer is 100% arcane.

[Snowbluff]

Understandable, I have yet to really look into (so understand) focusing myself.
However, personally I like the power point system if for nothing more than nostalgia for being like a mana point system.

Protip, get psicrystal containment if you like to spam meta like me.:p

[classy one]

I personally prefer psionics because of the augmentation potential and the fact you can change elements on the fly. A psionic charm or dominate is useful on any target that has a mind not just a subtype. And let's not forget the power point recharge trick which can allow you to nova all the time.

[Raendyn]

I personally prefer psionics because of the augmentation potential and the fact you can change elements on the fly. A psionic charm or dominate is useful on any target that has a mind not just a subtype. And let's not forget the power point recharge trick which can allow you to nova all the time.

Is there any DM that allowed recharge, even after he saw what happenend the 1st tiem he allowed it?

Is there any player that wanna continue doing it after DM told him that he needs to be tens of minutes every time he wanna recharge and have this happening every couple of hours so he can be buffed?

Even if both of the above are reality. Is there any party member that waited for this to happen? Don't your games ever have time limitations? :smallconfused:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Is there any DM that allowed recharge, even after he saw what happenend the 1st tiem he allowed it?

Is there any player that wanna continue doing it after DM told him that he needs to be tens of minutes every time he wanna recharge and have this happening every couple of hours so he can be buffed?

Even if both of the above are reality. Is there any party member that waited for this to happen? Don't your games ever have time limitations? :smallconfused:

I doubt I'd ever use a trick like this myself.

But wouldn't any time waiting to recharge something only apply In character so the players themselves aren't stuck waiting?

[Wings of Peace]

Arcanists abuse metamagic via prestige classes like Incantatrix, Halruuan Elder, and Mind Mage. Divinists abuse metamagic via Turn Undead and the Divine Metamagic feat. Psionicists abuse metapsionics by casually turning away and abusing the action economy instead.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there any DM that allowed recharge, even after he saw what happenend the 1st tiem he allowed it?

Is there any player that wanna continue doing it after DM told him that he needs to be tens of minutes every time he wanna recharge and have this happening every couple of hours so he can be buffed?

Even if both of the above are reality. Is there any party member that waited for this to happen? Don't your games ever have time limitations? :smallconfused:

Having recharge in fact decreases your time spent recovering power points because you no longer have to spend a minimum of 2 hours or a maximum of 8 hours resting to get them back. If you're a construct or undead, it means you can basically adventure indefinitely. Plus, most DM's let you automate out of combat actions, have you had someone that actually made you roleplay everything you did when crafting an item or something of that sort?

[ahenobarbi]

I love psionics (though I have little experience with it I love fluff and it seems pretty well designed).
I love & I play arcane (because current DM doesn't allow psionics... but I'm working on it)(and I love the variety it offers).

I tried divine but I didn't like it (I found it somewhat lacking...).

[sonofzeal]

Arcane spells are almost invariably the most powerful. They can do the nastiest things, many are easy to use creatively, and there's a whole lot of ways to utterly break campaigns. Nearly every Story Breaker Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoryBreakerPower) is an Arcane spell.

Psionics are Arcane-lite. Except in a few venues (creating minions, blasting), they're weaker overall. The base mechanic is a bit better, in that you avoid many of the drawbacks of Arcane magic, and the pp system is a hell of a lot friendlier than the spellslot system, but there's some new disadvantages to and the raw potency isn't quite there.

Divine Spells really only have a couple of the Story Breakers, and are generally considerably weaker except for buffing and restoration. They generally come with a better chassis (d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, better proficiencies) to make up for it, but the spells themselves generally aren't quite as nasty offensively.

[classy one]

You can't use DM fiat as a reason. By RAW recharge is doable, and should be accounted for when comparing systems. Indeed, there is more than one way to do it as well making it hard to fix (by RAW).

[sonofzeal]

You can't use DM fiat as a reason. By RAW recharge is doable, and should be accounted for when comparing systems. Indeed, there is more than one way to do it as well making it hard to fix (by RAW).
By RAW Pun-Pun can ascend as a lvl 1 Paladin, thus making Divine the most powerful.

At a certain point, though, you have to restrain yourself to practicality.

[Azernak0]

Arcane Spells are the strongest, Divine Spells have the easiest Metamagic, Psionics is the funnest to play.

The part about Psionics is entirely opinion (though I oh-so agree) but this is pretty accurate. Psionic powers can be just as powerful, or even more powerful, than Arcane spells though you do have to pay for it. Expansion can be used to make yourself go up two size categories instead of just one. The only 'problem' with Psionics are that they are all Sorcerer like, so they fall into Tier 2. But remember the thing about Tier 2: you can be just as powerful or MORE powerful than Tier 1 but you lack options. IE, a well optimized Sorcerer is probably stronger than the Druid but they lack Wildshape + Animal Companion.

But saying "Arcane vs Divine vs Psionics" is kind of wrong because it comes down to the class. You can't only say "Arcane > Divine" because the Bard is not as strong as a Cleric. Taking the best class that uses Arcane (Wizard) against the best Divine caster (Cleric/Archivist) and the best Psionic caster (Psion), I would say Arcane >> Divine > (BUT REALLY CLOSE) Psionics. Again, it is only down to versatility which is why the Sorcerer is weaker than the Cleric but has nearly the same tricks as the Wizard.

[navar100]

Unfortunately my gaming group has deemed psionics too powerful (Pathfinder). I tried to play one, and they got bothered. They were upset with Energy Missile doing 3d6 damage to five opponents as a 2nd level power, Mindthrust doing 1d10 damage as a 1st level power. The DM was upset I could expend psionic focus for an autoroll 15 on a concentration check for defensive casting. I gave all the usual arguments for psionics being balanced, but they don't care.

I have to make a new character. Oh well.

[Snowbluff]

By RAW Pun-Pun can ascend as a lvl 1 Paladin, thus making Divine the most powerful.

At a certain point, though, you have to restrain yourself to practicality.Agreed. RAW is RAW, and there's no fixing that, but I run on a gentleman's agreement. Even when told to go all out I end up holding back. Most of my PBP characters end up weaker than their party members in a lot of ways.


Unfortunately my gaming group has deemed psionics too powerful (Pathfinder). I tried to play one, and they got bothered. They were upset with Energy Missile doing 3d6 damage to five opponents as a 2nd level power, Mindthrust doing 1d10 damage as a 1st level power. The DM was upset I could expend psionic focus for an autoroll 15 on a concentration check for defensive casting. I gave all the usual arguments for psionics being balanced, but they don't care.

I have to make a new character. Oh well.

Ironically, having to roll so well on defensive casting is PF punishing casters for trying to cast. :smalltongue:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Unfortunately my gaming group has deemed psionics too powerful (Pathfinder). I tried to play one, and they got bothered. They were upset with Energy Missile doing 3d6 damage to five opponents as a 2nd level power, Mindthrust doing 1d10 damage as a 1st level power. The DM was upset I could expend psionic focus for an autoroll 15 on a concentration check for defensive casting. I gave all the usual arguments for psionics being balanced, but they don't care.

I have to make a new character. Oh well.

I know what that's like.

It's annoying when your being legit but it's not allowed simply because others either don't understand d&d well enough or would rather be 'casual' and get mad at people for putting in effort, creativity and intelligence in their characters and how they work.

Personally, I find people sometimes just hate characters that are good at what they do unless if it's a direct benefit to them (ex: Cleric heal bot). For example, I recently finished a campaign as an Orc Fighter named Urik. His Strength was ramped to be very high. So it hit the 30's and he stacked on almost every attack roll and damage boosting feat he could for melee attacks. This led to him dishing out around 200+ damage per round around the end of the campaign and people simply claimed 'he was a wall of stats' and that I should 'make better characters' despite all the times he got involved in the roleplaying they only saw him as stats because he was good in combat (note: This was in a group that hates combat 'for being slow').

And when questioned on their complaints it amounts to little more to 'You're guy does too much damage when none of ours can'.

[Sugashane]

Arcane spells are almost invariably the most powerful. They can do the nastiest things, many are easy to use creatively, and there's a whole lot of ways to utterly break campaigns. Nearly every Story Breaker Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoryBreakerPower) is an Arcane spell.

Psionics are Arcane-lite. Except in a few venues (creating minions, blasting), they're weaker overall. The base mechanic is a bit better, in that you avoid many of the drawbacks of Arcane magic, and the pp system is a hell of a lot friendlier than the spellslot system, but there's some new disadvantages to and the raw potency isn't quite there.

Divine Spells really only have a couple of the Story Breakers, and are generally considerably weaker except for buffing and restoration. They generally come with a better chassis (d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, better proficiencies) to make up for it, but the spells themselves generally aren't quite as nasty offensively.

Basically exactly my interpretation of the three. And also sonofzeal, I did want to say thanks for the links in your sig. Some good reads I've now bookmarked.

[otakumick]

I find it strange that some people run into trouble with simple psionic characters(confused dms banning most balanced caster system[not that its saying much to say that a casting system is most balanced of unbalanced systems]) when my most recent character was a somewhat cheesewrought kobold aiming towards using both cerebremancer and mindmage prestige classes... my character ended up being the most useful character in the group but not for any of the casting... simply because my character was the only one with a decent number of languages... and the only one to speak undercommon... in an underdark campaign... I do not understand the lack of proper prepwork inherent in that situation.

[Need_A_Life]

Psionics is most fun to play (well, I'm mostly thinking Psion[Telepath], TBH) in my experience. Flexibility and raw power is a fun combo.

Arcane comes second; more raw power, less flexibility. You get some pure "I win buttons," but I actually find it easier to "nova" as an arcane caster than as a psionics-user... maybe it's just that I don't need my high-level powers to be a competitive Telepath, while an arcane caster is more-or-less expected to rely on their shiniest toys.
Under Pathfinder psionics, I'd probably go Body Snatcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/body-snatcher) and just have fun with that, raw power be damned.

Divine has always been a support thing for me.
Playing a cleric, I was a front-line fighter who could patch himself and others up, while also providing buffs and a few fun tricks (Hide from Undead is a fun spell against a necromancer relying on mindless undead; a buffed cleric in melee with a wizard just isn't fair). But ultimately, I was more of a fighter with some tricks, rather than feeling like a "real" spellcaster.
Playing an Archivist, I used Dark Knowledge (think Bardic Music, but better :smallwink:) and Knowledge Devotion every bit as much as my spells (primarily summons, a few buffs and healing) in combat. My spells were powerful and useful, but ultimately just another tool in my toolbox. I was a bard with better spellcasting and buffing.

[classy one]

By RAW Pun-Pun can ascend as a lvl 1 Paladin, thus making Divine the most powerful.

At a certain point, though, you have to restrain yourself to practicality.

But that is a good example of divine being better than the rest. But then again psionics can do pun-pun with metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer. So restraint has nothing to do with it.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to recharge spell slots with arcane magic. Not sure about divine.

[Snowbluff]

But that is a good example of divine being better than the rest. But then again psionics can do pun-pun with metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer. So restraint has nothing to do with it.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to recharge spell slots with arcane magic. Not sure about divine.

If you can polymorph and Assume (Su), you can Pun Pun. Usually by them you have Shapechange, so it doesn't matter. Sarrukh have 14 HD, last time I checked.

Prayer Beads of Karma/Ankh of Ascension (CL) , DMM Heighten, extra slot might expedite the process. Said cleric can use wall of salt in his extra slot to gain the GP for CL boosting Items.

Also, a Yuan Ti Tainted One can probably polymorph (SLA) into a Sarrukh with their Psionics (Su) ability. Yes, that is a psionic ability that is supernatural that is actually an SLA.

[sonofzeal]

And also sonofzeal, I did want to say thanks for the links in your sig. Some good reads I've now bookmarked.

Thanks! Always nice to hear positive feedback. :smallsmile:

[classy one]

IIRC manifesting is considered a psi-like ability, which means you can apply supernatural transformation on it. Thus making all powers Su.
I doubt arcane and divine can do that.

[JusticeZero]

Unfortunately my gaming group has deemed psionics too powerful (Pathfinder).
IT's really frustrating that that happens so much, given that psionics actually has so much less to it that's brokenly powerful. Some of those abilities come online looking strong, then you have to sink a lot in to keep it scaling. I'm always tempted in those groups to go "Oh,ok, i'll just play a wizard.." and then casually work up to the point where I can go Angel Summoner on everyone in a variety of ways . Except that people would just imagine that a psi would be even worse.

WHich is partly why my current game (that still needs players) banned all arcane and divine casters full stop. I like psis, they're balanced, and I think that it's just flavor clash that gets them the bad rap. They usually get shoehorned in with all the other kinds of phlebotinium-chuckers and they don't get to show their identity much. Overstuffed campaign world syndrome at work, which Core starts already suffering from before you add anything.

[zilonox]

I won't even try to say which is better, but I can offer that I enjoy using psionics more than the other two. The reason being that I find psionicists to be very self reliant. Take away a wizards spell book or a cleric's divine focus and you can pretty well shut them down. Taking away spell components for both arcane/divine casters can hamper them as well (meta-magic aside). Obviously this is not a guarantee for all instances, but my psions never fear losing all their stuff when the PC's inevitably get arrested (either deservedly or through a set-up) at any level.

To shut down a psionicist in the same way, you have to take away their mind, which would pretty much hamper any character. Now, I'm not saying this makes psionics better or more powerful - just that I like to play them for this reason. I much prefer my characters to be as self reliant as possible. I like to play monks for this reason as well, despite their overall lack of "yippie"-ness from the general crowd. :smallsmile:

Let me make a gestalt psionic monk and I am one very happy (though not terribly overpowered) camper! :smallbiggrin:

[Ken Adams]

IMO i like psions the best...they have more of a true caster feel to them, they have a power point pool "mana pool" and i can augment the spells to buff them and still use metamagic feats to add more buffs.

no im not saying arcane/divine is not as effective, i just prefer psions the most.

[JusticeZero]

And when questioned on their complaints it amounts to little more to 'You're guy does too much damage when none of ours can'.
"I'd be happy to help you out with tweaks that stay in character to ramp your damage up more. It's not like I want to overshadow anyone; i'd rather help everyone else to be awesome so I can be surrounded by really strong friends."