Caster of everything

[Gwazi Magnum]

Idea hear inspired by another thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15316429#post15316429

But moved to a new topic to not de-rail it completely.

The idea being, is it possible by level 20 to make a character able to cast level 9 spells from an arcane list, divine list and psionic list?

Note: Legit though, not 'I cast this as an arcane spell'.

I mean the character actually knows these spells.
Note: Early entry into thurege classes invited/encouraged.

+Since Spontaneous casting if prefered for this idea, I'd appreciate it if whatever builds are suggested can use sorcerer instead of wizard for the arcane part.

Side Question: Might go resurrected with this. As in die as a Venerable Character and then revive with the +3 to INT, WIS and CHA and none of the penalties, also taking no mental penalties from a new race.

The two main questions for this idea is: Would be smarter to lose a level and then catch up with bonus exp as a result here, or smarter if I take the -2 con penalty?

Also, if I were to take human as the race he was originally would I keep the bonus feat and skill points or would that be lost so I'd be better off with something like Gray Elf?

[thethird]

So Spell to power erudite with favored discipline (spellcasting) doesn't count does it? Because that would be the easiest way to have everything.

[Raineh Daze]

Side Question: Might go resurrected with this. As in die as a Venerable Character and then revive with the +3 to INT, WIS and CHA and none of the penalties, also taking no mental penalties from a new race.

Surely you'd be the same age, unless you'd reincarnated or something? :smallconfused:

[flare'90]

I remember there was a way to get 9th powers, divine and arcane spells in 20 levels.
It used Ardent, beholder mage (accessed with double PaO), ur-priest, theurge classes and maybe tainted scholar for crazy high spell slots and DC (and feats).

I'll search and link if i found something.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So Spell to power erudite with favored discipline (spellcasting) doesn't count does it? Because that would be the easiest way to have everything.

Not so familiar with that class so I looked it up a bit.

If my impressions are right and it's not spontaneous like the sorcerer than it wouldn't work. Also, it looks like it would only be able to learn up to level 8 arcane spells any ways.


Surely you'd be the same age, unless you'd reincarnated or something? :smallconfused:

That's what I meant, sorry for the confusion.


I remember there was a way to get 9th powers, divine and arcane spells in 20 levels.
It used Ardent, beholder mage (accessed with double PaO), ur-priest, theurge classes and maybe tainted scholar for crazy high spell slots and DC (and feats).

I'll search and link if i found something.

Thanks, that would be much appreciated. :)

[flare'90]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140618) we go.

I forgot how many classes were need to make this work.

[thethird]

Not so familiar with that class so I looked it up a bit.

If my impressions are right and it's not spontaneous like the sorcerer than it wouldn't work. Also, it looks like it would only be able to learn up to level 8 arcane spells any ways.

It is spontaneous but its list gets limited as it casts spells, and it can learn 9th level spells, since spells are treated as powers learned from a discipline and has favored discipline (spellcasting) thus being able to learn spells up to 9th level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140618) we go.

I forgot how many classes were need to make this work.

A bit lost by how this is working exactly.

How is this allowing me to cast up to level 9 arcane, divine and psionic spells?

Also it seems to say I need to be a Beholder to do this well, does this mean this build will only work if I'm a giant floating eye.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It is spontaneous but its list gets limited as it casts spells, and it can learn 9th level spells, since spells are treated as powers learned from a discipline and has favored discipline (spellcasting) thus being able to learn spells up to 9th level.

What do you mean by 'Limited as it casts spells'?

Also, is this guy simply casting arcane and divine spells as psionic spells rather than having individual spell lists of each?

[Jack_Simth]

So Spell to power erudite with favored discipline (spellcasting) doesn't count does it? Because that would be the easiest way to have everything.

Let's see... the Convert Spell to Power (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) aspect specifies Arcane spells. We can get around that, though, due to a quirk in item creation rules for scrolls. Of course, to make use of that quirk, you're going to need a crafting cohort... warlock or artificer with Scribe Scroll and some arcane casting (which can be gotten via regional feat). As a warlock or artificer, scrolls of divine spells can be made. As the crafter is an Arcane caster, the scroll is thus an arcane scroll, and suitable for learning by the Spell-to-Power Erudite. That can get you all spells everywhere. Of course, then you need some way to get all the 9th level disipline powers. To do that, we need a quick and easy way to swap out cohorts... I'm fond of Thrallherd. Keep swapping out for 17th level Psions of different disciplines, give them cross-class ranks in UPD, and lots of powerstones of Psychic Chirgury to grant you the powers from the disiplines.

But that would get someone all the spells and all the powers.

Not quite what the OP asked for, though; the OP just wanted 9th level Arcane Spells, 9th level Divine Spells, and 9th level powers. Hmm.

[thethird]

An erudite is limited by its "unique powers per day", that means that a 1st level erudite can only manifest 1 power per day but it can manifest is as many times as he wants (note that he doesn't need to choose this "unique power per day" in advance). A 6th level erudite would be able to manifest 4 unique powers per day.

This "limitation" is totally bypassed by using linked power and imprint powerstone.

A spell to power erudite manifests spells. Among other benefits they are stilled and silenced, also it is easy to bypass material components And note that: "You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it", thus a spell to power erudite can choose "Favored Discipline (spellcasting): You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning." So with both spell to power and favored discipline an erudite can learn those spells as easy as he wants.

Enter fast progression casting classes (such as the trapsmith) and it becomes truly powerful, add ways of turning divine spells into arcane spells (alternate spell source, southern magician, others) and the spell to power erudite has access to all divine spells too.

No mater how obscure the source, if it can be an arcane spell a favored discipline (spellcasting) spell to power erudite considers the spell as if it were a general psion power and can learn it when leveling up without trouble.

Versatile spells such as arcane fusion, just add a cherry on top of your manifesting.

And don't get me started on augmentation...

---

Note that the erudite gets two bonus feats at level one, and thus can take two ACFs.

[Gwazi Magnum]

An erudite is limited by its "unique powers per day", that means that a 1st level erudite can only manifest 1 power per day but it can manifest is as many times as he wants (note that he doesn't need to choose this "unique power per day" in advance). A 6th level erudite would be able to manifest 4 unique powers per day.

This "limitation" is totally bypassed by using linked power and imprint powerstone.

A spell to power erudite manifests spells. Among other benefits they are stilled and silenced, also it is easy to bypass material components And note that: "You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it", thus a spell to power erudite can choose "Favored Discipline (spellcasting): You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning." So with both spell to power and favored discipline an erudite can learn those spells as easy as he wants.

Enter fast progression casting classes (such as the trapsmith) and it becomes truly powerful, add ways of turning divine spells into arcane spells (alternate spell source, southern magician, others) and the spell to power erudite has access to all divine spells too.

No mater how obscure the source, if it can be an arcane spell a favored discipline (spellcasting) spell to power erudite considers the spell as if it were a general psion power and can learn it when leveling up without trouble.

Versatile spells such as arcane fusion, just add a cherry on top of your manifesting.

And don't get me started on augmentation...

---

Note that the erudite gets two bonus feats at level one, and thus can take two ACFs.

Very nice...

Though there are three main questions I have in regards to this.

1. How would I go about turning divine spells into arcane spells to then turn to powers?

2. Is there to increase the number of powers a Erudite knows so I can expand my spell list more? Access to all three spell lists isn't overly great if I can only pick up a very limited number of those spells.

Note: Not asking for anything like cohort abuse to know all spells. Just some nice tricks, feats or something that expands the number of spells he can know but to the extent it is easily abuse of the system.

3. Does this mean any arcane spell he casts is automatically stilled and silenced without me having to increase it's spell level?

[thethird]

1. How would I go about turning divine spells into arcane spells to then turn to powers?

If spellcasting is your favored discipline you don't need to, just mention that someone somewhere can cast it as an arcane spell, perhaps using southern magician, once it is an arcane spell you can learn it as psion power, something that you might learn when leveling up.


2. Is there to increase the number of powers a Erudite knows so I can expand my spell list more? Access to all three spell lists isn't overly great if I can only pick up a very limited number of those spells.

The erudite doesn't have limited power known, he can potentially learn every power/spell in existence.

If you are talking about unique uses per day you can use versatile spells such as arcane fusion (5th level slot, casts any 4th level spell and any 1st level spell) or anyspell (3rd level slot, casts any 2nd level spell) use linked power when manifesting a power you link another power known but it won't count against the limit of your "unique powers day" and/or using psionic items such as power stones (that rely on you known powers, not "unique powers") to manifest.


3. Does this mean any arcane spell he casts is automatically stilled and silenced without me having to increase it's spell level?

Yes.

[Gwazi Magnum]

If spellcasting is your favored discipline you don't need to, just mention that someone somewhere can cast it as an arcane spell, perhaps using southern magician, once it is an arcane spell you can learn it as psion power, something that you might learn when leveling up.

That seems a bit rule bending though.

Do you mean it actually counts as an arcane spell somewhere or a class is able to convert it? Cause I doubt the conversion thing will work unless if you actually have a level in that class.

Like, where can I find say a healing spell able to be casted as a arcane spell?


The erudite doesn't have limited power known, he can potentially learn every power/spell in existence.

If you are talking about unique uses per day you can use versatile spells such as arcane fusion (5th level slot, casts any 4th level spell and any 1st level spell) or anyspell (3rd level slot, casts any 2nd level spell) use linked power when manifesting a power you link another power known but it won't count against the limit of your "unique powers day" and/or using psionic items such as power stones (that rely on you known powers, not "unique powers") to manifest.

That seems kind of broken... how do I learn more spells to that extent then?

Is this something a DM can easily say 'no' too and leave me restricted?


Yes.

Sweet... Heavy armor caster here I come :smallamused:

[thethird]

Do you mean it actually counts as an arcane spell somewhere or a class is able to convert it?

That's not how it works.

Pg. 154 of Complete Psionics; Powers Discovered (repertorie): Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest from the psion/wilder list.

Mind's eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a); Convert Spell to Power: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

Mind's eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a); Favored Discipline: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning.

Spells are treated as a discipline => Spells are treated as psion/wilder powers => Spells can be learnt without needing conversion.


Like, where can I find say a healing spell able to be casted as a arcane spell?

Bard list?


That seems kind of broken... how do I learn more spells to that extent then?

You just need to make a psicraft/spellcraft check to learn new powers/spells. IF you want to learn them permanently a pittance of XP needs to be paid.


Is this something a DM can easily say 'no' too and leave me restricted?

Of course, rule 0 always works.

I normally limit the spell to power conversion to spells that are directly arcane spells (note still that some creatures, such as dragons cast a lot of spells that normally would be divine as arcane spells), and I limit people to full spellcasting classes, if a spell both a appears in a fast progression class such as Trapsmith and in a normal progression class such as Wizard the spell/power level is the one of the normal progression class. Both of those are houserules.

Still, another point of contention is that even if spells are treated as a discipline someone might have problems with allowing favored discipline spellcasting, if so you would need to learn them as normal, just watch people casting spells.


Sweet... Heavy armor caster here I come :smallamused:

If your DM allows you to take mantles (from the mantled erudite ACF) instead of bonus feats at fifth level (that would be really nice of him) consider the magic mantle, that would make magic and psionics identical for you, and blur the line between powers and spells a great deal.

[Gwazi Magnum]

As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.

^Am I reading this wrong or would this mean I still need to cast the somatic and verbal components and it's not like I have still and silent spell for free?

Plus the class says no metamagic but does Eschew materials count for that, or can I still use that feat for the Psionic?


That's not how it works.

Pg. 154 of Complete Psionics; Powers Discovered (repertorie): Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest from the psion/wilder list.

Mind's eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a); Convert Spell to Power: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

Mind's eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a); Favored Discipline: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning.

Spells are treated as a discipline => Spells are treated as psion/wilder powers => Spells can be learnt without needing conversion.

Both of those count as level 1 variants so I can only pick one.

But from what it looks like simply picking the last one (Favored Discipline) should be enough, right?


Bard list?

Good point.


You just need to make a psicraft/spellcraft check to learn new powers/spells. IF you want to learn them permanently a pittance of XP needs to be paid.

Wait, so using psicraft/spellcraft to learn them isn't pernament?


If your DM allows you to take mantles (from the mantled erudite ACF) instead of bonus feats at fifth level (that would be really nice of him) consider the magic mantle, that would make magic and psionics identical for you, and blur the line between powers and spells a great deal.

Wait, don't they already count as psionics? So I can cast them in armor already?

[Piggy Knowles]

Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 6/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 5?

8th-level Nar Demonbinder arcane spells (becomes 9th-level with Versatile Spellcaster and a bloodline feat or Mother Cyst). 16th-level Ardent plus Practiced Manifester gives you 9th-level powers. 9th-level cleric spells off of 9 effective levels of Ur-Priest. Go Vaulnaen Illumian, and you can use your effective 9th-level Demonbinder slots to cast cleric spells out of.

It's pretty clunky - you'd need a way to add Bluff as an ardent skill (one of the Apprentice feats should do the trick), and probably need flaws to pull off all the required feats. But I think it should work for triple casting. That said, this is a pretty off-the-cuff response and I'm not in front of any books, so I'm sure there are some flaws in this plan, or obvious ways to make it much better.

[thethird]

Irregardless of what the original spell had as a component since it is now a psionic power it doesn't have those components.

Both ACF substitute bonus feats; the erudite gets two bonus feats at level 1, so you can take both.

No, it is not permanent unless you pay xp (but xp is a river and thought bottles are a thing).

They do already count as psionics, the full transparency is to break other stuff down the line. Or since spells re considered powers and they aren't in any discipline they are general powers and thus valid to be learned (that is cheesier than favored discipline in my opinion).

[Phelix-Mu]

Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 6/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 5?

8th-level Nar Demonbinder arcane spells (becomes 9th-level with Versatile Spellcaster and a bloodline feat or Mother Cyst). 16th-level Ardent plus Practiced Manifester gives you 9th-level powers. 9th-level cleric spells off of 9 effective levels of Ur-Priest. Go Vaulnaen Illumian, and you can use your effective 9th-level Demonbinder slots to cast cleric spells out of.

It's pretty clunky - you'd need a way to add Bluff as an ardent skill (one of the Apprentice feats should do the trick), and probably need flaws to pull off all the required feats. But I think it should work for triple casting. That said, this is a pretty off-the-cuff response and I'm not in front of any books, so I'm sure there are some flaws in this plan, or obvious ways to make it much better.

Not bad for AFB. :smallamused:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 6/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Cerebremancer 5?

8th-level Nar Demonbinder arcane spells (becomes 9th-level with Versatile Spellcaster and a bloodline feat or Mother Cyst). 16th-level Ardent plus Practiced Manifester gives you 9th-level powers. 9th-level cleric spells off of 9 effective levels of Ur-Priest. Go Vaulnaen Illumian, and you can use your effective 9th-level Demonbinder slots to cast cleric spells out of.

It's pretty clunky - you'd need a way to add Bluff as an ardent skill (one of the Apprentice feats should do the trick), and probably need flaws to pull off all the required feats. But I think it should work for triple casting. That said, this is a pretty off-the-cuff response and I'm not in front of any books, so I'm sure there are some flaws in this plan, or obvious ways to make it much better.

Wait, do all these classes granted a new spell level per class level or something?


Irregardless of what the original spell had as a component since it is now a psionic power it doesn't have those components.

Both ACF substitute bonus feats; the erudite gets two bonus feats at level 1, so you can take both.

No, it is not permanent unless you pay xp (but xp is a river and thought bottles are a thing).

They do already count as psionics, the full transparency is to break other stuff down the line. Or since spells re considered powers and they aren't in any discipline they are general powers and thus valid to be learned (that is cheesier than favored discipline in my opinion).

What happens as long as it's not counted as permanent?

I really don't like spending xp because I don't like having my hard earned xp meant to make me stronger be turned into a kind of currency.

Also can I ask where in the manuals it says they don't need somatic and verbal components?
Because the group this is planned for, the DM will bring this up often and probably demand to find written proof on how that works.

(Note: If you're reading this Tanner, this is not the character meant to replace Gregor so don't worry :P)

[thethird]

"Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)
The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost)."

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)

If you don't want to learn the power/spell you might manifest it in a round. But seriously your hard earned XP helps to improve your character, like increasing your list of powers/spells available. And if you fall back you will regain XP faster and yada yada (xp is a river (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River))

[Piggy Knowles]

Wait, do all these classes granted a new spell level per class level or something?

Ardent (Complete Psionics) is a manifesting class that selects powers from mantles. The level of power you can select is based on your manifester level. So, if you get a high enough ML, you can, say, select 9th-level powers even if you have fewer than 17 effective ardent levels.

Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) gives you 9th-level divine spells in nine levels.

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) is an odd duck. You must be able to cast 4th-level spells in order to take it at all. Once you do, it gives you spontaneous 4th- through 8th-level arcane spells, mostly focused on a demon theme, over the course of seven levels.

Psychic Theurge is like Mystic Theurge, but psionics plus divine.

Cerebremancer is like Mystic Theurge, but psionics plus arcane.

So, putting them all together...

9th-level ardent powers (5 levels in ardent +6 levels in psychic theurge +5 levels in cerebremancer = 16 levels of ardent manifesting, add in Practiced Manifester and you've got effective 20th-level manifesting and can choose 9th-level powers)

9th-level divine spells off the cleric list (2 levels of ur-priest +6 level in psychic theurge +1 level in mystic theurge = 9 effective ur-priest levels, enough for 9th-level spells)

8th-level arcane spells off the nar demonbinder list (1 level of nar demonbinder +1 level of mystic theurge +5 levels of cerebremancer = 8th-level nar demonbinder spells, which is where the class caps)

Now, NDB is a spontaneous arcane class, so it qualifies for Versatile Spellcaster, which lets you spend two spell slots of a lower level to cast a higher level spell that you know. So, you can spend two 8th-level spell slots to cast a 9th-level spell. Problem is, you don't know any 9th-level spells. So, pick up the Mother Cyst feat, or one of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, and you've got 9th-level arcane spells as well.

[Gwazi Magnum]

"Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)
The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost)."

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)

If you don't want to learn the power/spell you might manifest it in a round. But seriously your hard earned XP helps to improve your character, like increasing your list of powers/spells available. And if you fall back you will regain XP faster and yada yada (xp is a river (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River))

Sorry for the slow reply, I was reading over the links you posted.

But yea, I can really get what you're saying about XP being a river.

If I'm going the XP spending route though there's a few questions I have...

1. Would it worth it to play a reincarnated venerable character so I have +3 to the mental scores, no physical penalties and gain any physical bonuses from the new race without the mental penalties? This would mean I start off 1 level lower.

Reincarnated: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reincarnate

2. Are there any LA races you can suggest for this build? As in for the before-death idea above where mental bonuses and such can carry over? - Also, would the LA from that race even stay after I was reincarnated? I read it over myself but it's not clear if it includes LA or not.

3. Is there much ways to 'buy xp'. Not in the sense of replacing xp costs with gold for item creation. But something like fable 2 where there were experience potions you can buy from stores, drink them and gain some xp? Note, this xp can be xp that doesn't work for level ups and could be restricted to uses like item creation or learning new spells.

4. What would be the experience cost of learning new spells?


Ardent (Complete Psionics) is a manifesting class that selects powers from mantles. The level of power you can select is based on your manifester level. So, if you get a high enough ML, you can, say, select 9th-level powers even if you have fewer than 17 effective ardent levels.

Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) gives you 9th-level divine spells in nine levels.

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) is an odd duck. You must be able to cast 4th-level spells in order to take it at all. Once you do, it gives you spontaneous 4th- through 8th-level arcane spells, mostly focused on a demon theme, over the course of seven levels.

Psychic Theurge is like Mystic Theurge, but psionics plus divine.

Cerebremancer is like Mystic Theurge, but psionics plus arcane.

So, putting them all together...

9th-level ardent powers (5 levels in ardent +6 levels in psychic theurge +5 levels in cerebremancer = 16 levels of ardent manifesting, add in Practiced Manifester and you've got effective 20th-level manifesting and can choose 9th-level powers)

9th-level divine spells off the cleric list (2 levels of ur-priest +6 level in psychic theurge +1 level in mystic theurge = 9 effective ur-priest levels, enough for 9th-level spells)

8th-level arcane spells off the nar demonbinder list (1 level of nar demonbinder +1 level of mystic theurge +5 levels of cerebremancer = 8th-level nar demonbinder spells, which is where the class caps)

Now, NDB is a spontaneous arcane class, so it qualifies for Versatile Spellcaster, which lets you spend two spell slots of a lower level to cast a higher level spell that you know. So, you can spend two 8th-level spell slots to cast a 9th-level spell. Problem is, you don't know any 9th-level spells. So, pick up the Mother Cyst feat, or one of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, and you've got 9th-level arcane spells as well.

Sounds pretty powerful, I'm honestly surprised they made classes that gives you a spell level each level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Reading over the class more and there's still a part that confuses me.

The 'Unique Powers' section, what does that mean?
How is that any different from any of my other powers?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note that the erudite gets two bonus feats at level one, and thus can take two ACFs.

By this, did you mean that he gains two bonus feats from the class or one from the class and one from being level 1?

Because the Erudites page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b

Makes it look like it's only one bonus feat.

[nobodez]

By this, did you mean that he gains two bonus feats from the class or one from the class and one from being level 1?

Because the Erudites page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b

Makes it look like it's only one bonus feat.

Psicrystal Affinity and a Psionic/Meta-Psionic/Psionic Item Creation feat at 1st level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Psicrystal Affinity and a Psionic/Meta-Psionic/Psionic Item Creation feat at 1st level.

I'm not asking what feats to take.

Third said the class at level 1 gives me two bonus feats that can be traded for variants.
I was wondering if it did give two bonus or if he meant trading away the class feat and the innate level 1 feat.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Something else that dawned on me.

The Erudite seems to be an online only class (Someone please tell me the manual if I'm wrong), and it's entry never lists it class skills.

Granted it never details it's HD, saving throws or BAB either but I assume it's like the Psion which is: d4, low BAB, low Fort and Ref, High Will.

But the class skills is very dependent on discipline for the psion, but the erudite has none. Does that mean he simply as the base class skills of a psion? Or is there a list of class skills somewhere it has I just can't find?

[Seer_of_Heart]

I'm not asking what feats to take.

Third said the class at level 1 gives me two bonus feats that can be traded for variants.
I was wondering if it did give two bonus or if he meant trading away the class feat and the innate level 1 feat.
Those are the bonus feats you get and can trade away.

[ben-zayb]

A bit lost by how this is working exactly.

How is this allowing me to cast up to level 9 arcane, divine and psionic spells?

Also it seems to say I need to be a Beholder to do this well, does this mean this build will only work if I'm a giant floating eye.

If you are interested in other multiple-9s (and then some) you might want to check the thread itself, but here's a sample:

Triple 9s:

Ardent 3/Beholder Mage 2/Cerebremancer 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Psychic Theurge 5

Take Assume Supernatural Ability by level 3 and buy a casting of Polymorph Any Object. Become Beholder, stab out eye, enter Beholder Mage. Take Cerebremancer to advance BM to 7 and Ardent to 8. Have Iron Will and Spell Focus: Evil by level 9. Enter Ur-Priest. Enter Mystic Theurge to get Beholder Mage to 10 (unnecessary but there's room and it's good) and Ur-Priest to 5. Enter Psychic Theurge to get Ur-Priest to 10 and Ardent to 13. Have Practiced Manifester by the last level so that you can learn your 9th level power.

I would probably prefer to take Erudite instead of Ardent though for fuller access to psionics. You can also opt to get your psionics side up to 15 by sacrificing the last levels of BM and UP (you still get 9s, just not as many). The Ardent part could then have more 9th level powers at least, and the Erudite would get its 8ths. I don't think either is as good as having extra Beholder Mage slots if you ask me...
EDIT: Either 1 PAO from Elan to Beholder, or 2 PAO from X to Elan to Beholder.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Those are the bonus feats you get and can trade away.

So a level 1 Human Erudite gains 4 feats at level 1?

1 Base + 1 Race + 2 Class

If so where does it detail it?
Is Erudite in a manual or is it purely an online source class?
Because in my online source it looks like it's only one feat from the class.

[Jack_Simth]

The Erudite seems to be an online only class (Someone please tell me the manual if I'm wrong), and it's entry never lists it class skills.

It's in Complete Psionic. The extra stuff for spell to power is online-only, though, as nearly as I can tell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, StP Erudite + Rainbow Servant.

Alternate Spell Source + Archivist + Cerebramancer works too.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It's in Complete Psionic. The extra stuff for spell to power is online-only, though, as nearly as I can tell.

Thanks.

Is there a source in the future I can use to point me to manuals that detail certain classes? Cause I end up running into this a lot where I see a lot of great things on a class but nothing details where to find it so I'm forced to ask on here for the manual.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks.

Is there a source in the future I can use to point me to manuals that detail certain classes? Cause I end up running into this a lot where I see a lot of great things on a class but nothing details where to find it so I'm forced to ask on here for the manual.
Conveniently enough.... (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists)

[Chronos]

You could also use the Versatile Elf Generalist Domain Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14924623&postcount=13) trick to get your 9th-level arcane casting from a single level of wizard, and then spend your other 19 levels on Ardent, Ur-Priest, and Psychic Theurge.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Conveniently enough.... (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists)

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

This should save me a lot of hassle in the future.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You could also use the Versatile Elf Generalist Domain Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14924623&postcount=13) trick to get your 9th-level arcane casting from a single level of wizard, and then spend your other 19 levels on Ardent, Ur-Priest, and Psychic Theurge.

That's cheesy if I ever saw it. :P

But nah, the goal of this was to do it legit without cheap tricks.

[nobodez]

So a level 1 Human Erudite gains 4 feats at level 1?

1 Base + 1 Race + 2 Class

If so where does it detail it?
Is Erudite in a manual or is it purely an online source class?
Because in my online source it looks like it's only one feat from the class.

Dude, I say already, the Erudite Alternate Psion gets two first level class features:

Psicrystal Affintiy (as a bonus feat)
Bonus Feat (psionic/metapsionic/psionic item creation only)


This is from both the link posted by Gwazi Magnum and from Complete Psionic (page 154).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Dude, I say already, the Erudite Alternate Psion gets two first level class features:

Psicrystal Affintiy (as a bonus feat)
Bonus Feat (psionic/metapsionic/psionic item creation only)


This is from both the link posted by Gwazi Magnum and from Complete Psionic (page 154).

1. You need to check who you're reply too better. You're trying to argue me with my own link.

2. That's not what I'm asking.
What I'm asking is does the class give him 2 bonus feats for the purposes of ACF? Can I replace two feats with two ACF's or is it only the feat specifically detailed as 'bonus feat' that can do this?

[thethird]

Most people I've played say that yes, since psycristal is a bonus feat an erudite can trade it away if it wants. Of course, DM judgement trumps forums advice :smalltongue:

[Gwazi Magnum]

So, I rolled up my character with the re-incarnate.

My Original Race was Gray Elf.
Grey Elf started the game Venerable and then Reincarnated into a Gnome (It was rolled).

So this has given me a total of: -2 STR, +2 CON, +5 INT, +3 WIS, +3 CHA

And this is in exchange for 1 level. However, in another thread it was highlighted I can use 'Last Breath' instead to instead lose 1 HP rather than a level so I think I'll go with that.

However, there's also the matter of me having to pay experience to learn arcane spells and if I want a good supply of them that will get costly fast.

My plan is to spend my experience down to half way between level 7 and 8 (for now) on spells so I start off the same level wise as if I had used reincarnate.

However, this leads me to some questions.

1. Which spells (Spell Compendium included) do you suggest an Erudite knows?
-So which spells are normally the best through level up?
-Which are the best arcane spells to get?
-Any discipline powers I should look at?

2. Is there ways for me to reduce the XP cost needed to learn spells like I can reduce the XP cost to make magic items?

3. Are there any permanency spells that are expecially useful?
-Also if I do this with Read and Detect magic would it be assumed to be passive?


Most people I've played say that yes, since psycristal is a bonus feat an erudite can trade it away if it wants. Of course, DM judgement trumps forums advice :smalltongue:

Alright, thanks. :)

[Seer_of_Heart]

2. Is there ways for me to reduce the XP cost needed to learn spells like I can reduce the XP cost to make magic items?


Thought bottle :smallbiggrin:. Stores all but 500exp, use all the exp possible and then use the thought bottle again to be restored to your previous experience total -500.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Thought bottle :smallbiggrin:. Stores all but 500exp, use all the exp possible and then use the thought bottle again to be restored to your previous experience total -500.

I should of expected this response.

I am looking for legit ways to learn the spells for cheaper though. Not any infinite experience tricks.

Also, Wizard of the coast did give an announcement saying that's not how you use it.

[Kazyan]

Ask the DM if Distilled Joy or Agony will work, in the same way that they work to replace XP for most things. Not RAW, but possibly reasonable. BoED and BoVD items.

Sidenote: If you die again as an StP Erudite, I just don't even.:smalltongue:

[Seer_of_Heart]

I should of expected this response.

I am looking for legit ways to learn the spells for cheaper though. Not any infinite experience tricks.

Also, Wizard of the coast did give an announcement saying that's not how you use it.

How the heck do you use it then :smallannoyed: that's the only logical conclusion I can draw from looking at the item.

[Jack_Simth]

How the heck do you use it then :smallannoyed: that's the only logical conclusion I can draw from looking at the item.

The apparent intent is to restore level loss in case of death, failed saves vs. a wight, and that kind of thing.

[Seer_of_Heart]

The apparent intent is to restore level loss in case of death, failed saves vs. a wight, and that kind of thing.

But there is restoration for that :smallannoyed:. This is just silly WoTC.

[Xervous]

Ways to avoid paying XP for things outside of crafting are pretty much all or nothing. Outside of thought bottle and the BoVD/BoED methods, I can only think of cheesy, cheesy stuff like self inflicted negative level abuse.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ask the DM if Distilled Joy or Agony will work, in the same way that they work to replace XP for most things. Not RAW, but possibly reasonable. BoED and BoVD items.

Sidenote: If you die again as an StP Erudite, I just don't even.:smalltongue:

*Points to quote post below*


Wait, do all these classes granted a new spell level per class level or something?



What happens as long as it's not counted as permanent?

I really don't like spending xp because I don't like having my hard earned xp meant to make me stronger be turned into a kind of currency.

Also can I ask where in the manuals it says they don't need somatic and verbal components?
Because the group this is planned for, the DM will bring this up often and probably demand to find written proof on how that works.

(Note: If you're reading this Tanner, this is not the character meant to replace Gregor so don't worry :P)

+ This would require the approval of several manuals and sources not currently allowed.

I've actually been running a bit short on character ideas for our campaign so I'm thinking of keeping Gregor... we'll see when the session starts.

[Kazyan]

Ah, missed that line. I do that...anyway, good luck with this.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ah, missed that line. I do that...anyway, good luck with this.

Thanks, the erudite shall hopefully rule the world... MUA HA HA HA!

[A_S]

If all you want is 9ths from arcane, divine, and psionic, you need very little cheese to get it done, certainly no PAO + Beholder Mage stuff. This ought to do it:

-----

Human

1 - Ardent 1 - Iron Will, Able Learner
2 - Ardent 2
3 - Savage Bard 1 - Spell Focus (evil)
4 - Ardent 3
5 - Ardent 4
6 - Ur-Priest 1 - Practiced Manifester
7 - Ur-Priest 2
8 - Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) 1 (Ur-Priest + Ardent)
9 - Psychic Theurge 2 (Ur-Priest + Ardent) - Alternate Source Spell
10 - Psychic Theurge 3 (Ur-Priest + Ardent)
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Mystic Theurge 1 (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord) - Overchannel
13 - Mystic Theurge 2 (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord)
14 - Mystic Theurge 3 (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord)
15 - Mystic Theurge 4 (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord) - (free feat)
16 - Cerebremancer 1 (Ardent + Sublime Chord)
17 - Cerebremancer 2 (Ardent + Sublime Chord)
18 - Cerebremancer 3 (Ardent + Sublime Chord) - (free feat)
19 - Cerebremancer 4 (Ardent + Sublime Chord)
10 - Cerebremancer 5 (Ardent + Sublime Chord)

-----

Casts spells as a 9th level Ur-Priest and a 10th level Sublime Chord. At level 18, your Ardent ML is 10 (effective ardent level) + 4 (practiced manifester) + 3 (overchannel) = 17, so your last three powers learned can be 9th level. Alternate Source Spell is used to make Ur-Priest spells count as arcane for Sublime Chord's prerequisite, but not to let you advance Ur-Priest as an arcane spellcasting class (which would be somewhat RAW-ambiguous).