Would removing psychic ennervation unbalance the wilder?

[classy one]

I was just wondering if reducing or outright eliminating that class feature would do for the meta game. Wilders are really unpopular for that exact reason. Would this unbalance the game? They still have a lot powers than both the psion and the psywar, would that be enough to put them on a equal footing?

Maybe make a feat (other than unconditional power) that reduces the chance of ennervation by 5% and can be taken multiple times? Wilder don't get bonus feats so that could be a good feat tax on an already rare resource?

[Morcleon]

...actually, I'd be fine with removing psychic enervation entirely. Wilder only gets 11 powers total, so they don't really need more gimping. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Without psychic enervation, you make Wilder 20 viable, but it still sucks massively. You're getting 1 power fewer known than the Warlock, a class well known for being tight on known invocations, and yours are limited by your PP reserve. Unlike Sorcerers (who learn literally three times as many powers as you, and are STILL known for not getting enough) you don't have the versatility of Alter Self or Summon Monster or Shadow Evocation/Conjuration. All the good powers (Schism, Metamorphosis) are discipline-restricted, and so unavailable to you without a feat.

Even with the removal of psychic enervation, Wilders are still very very low T2, possibly even T3, and anything but top-notch power choice makes Wilder builds fall down into T4 territory.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would give them an extra power every three levels, open up taking powers from the specialty lists, and alter wild surge to be the following.

Wild Surge
- A wilder can tap into the chaotic powers of their minds, unleashing more power than would be otherwise possible. A wilder can spend a move action to wild surge. This uses their psionic focus and grants a increase to the wilders manifester level and provides a small pool of temp PP. Both of these bonuses last only one round.

The manifester level increase adds 1 to the wilder's manifester level, +1 per five class levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th).

The wild surge grants one point of temp PP at first level. At 4th level this increases to 1d4, at 8th 1d6, at 12th 1d8, at 16th 1d10, and at 20th 1d12.

At 10th level the wilder can surge as a swift action.

[Raineh Daze]

The wild surge grants one point of temp PP at first level. At 4th level this increases to 1d4, at 8th 1d6, at 12th 1d8, at 16th 1d10, and at 20th 1d12.

At 10th level the wilder can surge as a swift action.

... perhaps not randomising it would be a better idea?

[classy one]

Hmmm I just realized that without ennervation you could recharge PO even easier. Maybe still keep the PP lose but lose the daze effect?

@Flickerdart: even as it is, wilder is still T2. It can get more powers with Expanded Knowledge and the educated variant gives it 4 more powers in exchange for volatile mind. I think another reason it is unpopular is because the wilder is really a Gish class. Surging Euphoria is a very potent class feature that is better the more you surge. You can't really play it as a psion (but with more ML) since it lacks the powers to do so. But it isn't that great of a Gish class since it doesn't have the feats or the weapon/armor proficiency to make it so.

@fouredgedsword: wild surge is, as far I can tell, a free action. It is something you can apply on any manifestation no matter what action it takes.

[Fouredged Sword]

That hardly seems wild. I suppose you could just change it to 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 respectively, but I like the variable aspect of the die roll. You get the PP you roll and have to figure out how you are going to spend them before the end of your turn.

[Glimbur]

Hmmm I just realized that without ennervation you could recharge PO even easier. Maybe still keep the PP lose but lose the daze effect?

I'd suggest fixing PP recharge directly, rather than changing a different class feature to make it harder to do. That is, if you see PP recharge as a problem.

[classy one]

I'd suggest fixing PP recharge directly, rather than changing a different class feature to make it harder to do. That is, if you see PP recharge as a problem.

Wild surge is not the only way to recharge (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27940693/Compilation_of_Power_Point_Recharge_Methods). You are suggesting a much bigger fix when what is need is just to prevent recharging due to wild surge.

Now that I think about it, is recharging really that bad?

[Psyren]

I would give them an extra power every three levels, open up taking powers from the specialty lists, and alter wild surge to be the following.

Wild Surge
- A wilder can tap into the chaotic powers of their minds, unleashing more power than would be otherwise possible. A wilder can spend a move action to wild surge. This uses their psionic focus and grants a increase to the wilders manifester level and provides a small pool of temp PP. Both of these bonuses last only one round.

The manifester level increase adds 1 to the wilder's manifester level, +1 per five class levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th).

The wild surge grants one point of temp PP at first level. At 4th level this increases to 1d4, at 8th 1d6, at 12th 1d8, at 16th 1d10, and at 20th 1d12.

At 10th level the wilder can surge as a swift action.

Er... yuck. I would much rather deal with enervation than have wild surge eat valuable actions, even Swifts. (And yay for a chance at surging for 1 PP at 20!)

Enervation might daze you, but at least it's only a 2/10 chance or so.



Now that I think about it, is recharging really that bad?

Yes it is, because psionics can already remove the biggest limitation on casters (actions.) Nova potential is bad enough without the ability to refuel between (or during!) fights - check out the Mad Minute trick from my sig to see where this kind of thing can lead.

There's a reason DSP plugged all the recharge holes when they updated psionics for PF.

[classy one]

DSP also had the Maenad wilder that eliminates the daze effect altogether. Still lose PP based on wilder level though. Maybe there is already precedence for this type of thing?

[Psyren]

DSP also had the Maenad wilder that eliminates the daze effect altogether. Still lose PP based on wilder level though. Maybe there is already precedence for this type of thing?

Not just that, but there are different flavors of surge in PF that have different drawbacks. For instance, the Student Wilder is only dazzled rather than dazed when enervating, and the Warrior Wilder is dazed but loses HP rather than PP.

[Flickerdart]

@Flickerdart: even as it is, wilder is still T2.
Wilder is the worst T2, easily.

[classy one]

Not just that, but there are different flavors of surge in PF that have different drawbacks. For instance, the Student Wilder is only dazzled rather than dazed when enervating, and the Warrior Wilder is dazed but loses HP rather than PP.

As far as I can tell there is no version of wilder that removes the PP lose. The closest you can get in ennervation tolerance to cut the lose in half. Maybe all the published stuff is trying to tell me something.

Quick recovery and a good will save can somewhat mitigate the daze effect. Still costs a feat though.

[classy one]

Wilder is the worst T2, easily.

Well T2 is still T2. I was wondering if getting rid of ennervation would be a bad idea. From what I'm reading it seems not to be the case, just not to safeguard against recharge tricks.

[Spuddles]

That hardly seems wild. I suppose you could just change it to 1,2,3,4,5, and 6 respectively, but I like the variable aspect of the die roll. You get the PP you roll and have to figure out how you are going to spend them before the end of your turn.

What about the manifester boost?


Er... yuck. I would much rather deal with enervation than have wild surge eat valuable actions, even Swifts. (And yay for a chance at surging for 1 PP at 20!)

Enervation might daze you, but at least it's only a 2/10 chance or so.



Yes it is, because psionics can already remove the biggest limitation on casters (actions.) Nova potential is bad enough without the ability to refuel between (or during!) fights - check out the Mad Minute trick from my sig to see where this kind of thing can lead.

There's a reason DSP plugged all the recharge holes when they updated psionics for PF.

A 40% chance of being dazed is a hell of a lot of lost actions. Also, by his way, level 20 the min bonus pp would be 6, not 1. The biggest downside of that method, I see, is not getting the boost to manifester level. Blasting with ML +4 is the biggest benefit of wild surge, imo.

[PersonMan]

Well T2 is still T2.

Yes, but the difference between "T2 because you can break the game with a combo, but without proper power choice you become T4" is different from "T2 all day, every day".

Think about the Effective Tier 4 Wilders, ET3 Wilders and ET2 Wilders. Think about how Psychich Ennervation effects each of them. Don't just discard 2/3 of the possible options, or you'll run into a similar problem that a lot of Wizard nerfs hit (in their case, they nerf high-OP wizards and accidentally crush the mid/low-OP ones and/or force them into high-OP builds, which are not nerfed).

Personally, I'd say it changes nothing. I've literally never seen a Wilder say "well I would Wild Surge, but Psychic Ennervation might hit me!", it's always just a sort of 'haha, you rolled low, get screwed over' thing that crops up every now and then. Which isn't really fun IMO.

[Flickerdart]

Well T2 is still T2. I was wondering if getting rid of ennervation would be a bad idea. From what I'm reading it seems not to be the case, just not to safeguard against recharge tricks.
You can recharge regardless of enervation - Midnight Augmentation at 2 essentia allows you to augment Bestow Power twice for only 2PP, meaning that you spend 5PP to gain 6PP.

[classy one]

You can recharge regardless of enervation - Midnight Augmentation at 2 essentia allows you to augment Bestow Power twice for only 2PP, meaning that you spend 5PP to gain 6PP.

Yeah I know there are plenty of ways to recharge PP but the surging variant is still the most straightforward.