Create-A-Gate: The Power is Yours

[RadagastTheBrow]

Hello, world. I was thinking about some stuff the other day and eventually came to the topic of: If I had an epic D&D-ish character in a world who needed to hide and/or protect a crack in reality, how would he do it? Then it occurred to me that it might be fun to ask you guys and gals here. So, here I am, speculating and asking.

For my part, I've had a couple ideas. The first and most direct revolves around a spell in the Epic Level Handbook: Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). Essentially, spend a week, some XP, and a giant crystal, and you create your own demiplane. You're the only person who knows about the plane, so hopefully nothing will randomly Shift into it.

To guard the gate, I (er, my character) would somehow create the plane out of the material in which the crack exists. In this way, I would essentially sew the fabric of reality shut around the crack. Then I'd do what I can to hide the space where the crack was, so that adventurers/civilians don't randomly find and explore the space-time anomaly. Also, hide all information about the demiplane so nobody even thinks to look for the crack in the first place.

For further protection, possibly build a dungeon around the anomaly to serve as my crypt, with directions and material for True-Resurrecting me in case of trouble. Then go get myself completely obliterated so that nobody can use Speak-With-Dead on my corpse to get the information about the demiplane. This also utilizes a nice bit of misdirection- people know that something's being hidden there, but they also blatantly know what it is. Nobody has any reason to question what else it might be.

Now, this has a few weaknesses- somebody could resurrect me, then magically force the information out of me. Hence the need to destroy the body. Likewise, I think maybe somebody could randomly Plane-Shift into the crack's demiplane. On the other hand, I think you need a specific material focus to get to a specific Plane, so I'd just have to set the key to "my bones" and fail my next Fort save against Disintegration. I'm sure there are other weaknesses, too, which I haven't thought of yet. That's part of the fun of posting this stuff here.

I had another idea- simpler, yet possibly less feasible. I don't think anything says the Gates have to stay in one place. The Sapphire, for instance, was simply the lock on a greater magical Gate, if I recall correctly. It could have been anywhere, and was probably on Soon at all times before his death. Anyway, if the weak-point can be mobilized, then why not? The best defense is the one that can evaluate and respond to a variety of threats, yes? Build the "gate" into a construct- a sentient Air Golem, if such a thing is possible. (I pick "Air" to avoid the problem constructs have with "Transmute Rock to Mud," and because I fear that, containing the Snarl, standard reconstructive/divine magic might not work on it.) (There are spells to create new species, thanks to Epic. Sure, it wouldn't be a golem, but that extra motive force would be worth it.)

In other words, build the Crack into a peaceful, sentient, artificial air elemental and then train it in a couple dozen levels in Rogue so it can hide and sneak around really, really well. This can also make for a nice little bit of drama- "I AM the gate."

So, thoughts? Questions? Comments? Thanks for reading, and I hope you have fun!

[EmperorSarda]

I'd develop an epic level version of Imprisonment that can trap objects and not just creatures. Then use other divination spells to hide its location from Locate Object, Wish, and Miracle.

Then, I create a dungeon with several imitation gates that function as Plane Shift so attention is drawn to them. Whereas the location of the real gate is in some broom closet where no one would think of casting Freedom.

[Shadowknight12]

Every single Abjuration spell at my disposal and then some. I would create epic Abjuration spells the likes of which Dorukan could have never dreamt of. No creatures, no traps, just a desolate arctic mountain with inclement and merciless cold weather.

My magnum opus would be an epic Abjuration spell that would shield the gate from time and space themselves. The gate would be inaccessible by any means, as no path could possibly lead to it, and it would be untouched by time. If it was within my limits, I would enhance that epic spell to make sure that it was shielded from the magic (and sight) of deities themselves.

My hubris would undo me, of course, as would narrative conventions, but I would probably make for the most impressive story.

[King of Nowhere]

It depends on the setting.
In the campaign world I used, nations were rich and resourceful and way more powerful than any goup of adventurers.
In that setting, I'd just spread knowledge of the gate in the world, and make sure all the nations see it is in their interest to protect it.

The actual defences would probably include prismatic walls enclosed in anti magic fields, and the most powerful anti-teleportation wards that can be devised. Miracle and wish spells are used to make those wards dispel-resistant. In particular, miracle and wish can be used to teleport people past abjurations, but if said abjurations are strenghtened by a miracle/wish specifically forbidding to bypass them that way, then they cannot be bypassed, not even by miracle/wish.
Only one way to access the fortress, and that is a long narrow corridor with no cover shrouded in permanent antimagic. at the end of the corridor there's a hole, and on the other side there are cannons loaded with shrapnel.
The doors on the inside are all protected against magic, and they have no locks: they are all barred from the inside. The actual door to the gate is also protected by several mechanisms, both magical and mundane, that would trigger the explosion of a few tonnes of gunpowder if disturbed. and just a fraction of second before the explosion, an anti magic field would be triggered. No just evading the explosion from ghostform or something.
And then plenty of alarm systems, redundant alarms, alarms that are set off if other alarms are disabled, random people everywhere carrying alarm beacons. Those alarms would warn every single high priest of every religion, and every single special forces command of every powerful nation. That means a few dozens 15+ level people, and a few hundreds level 10+ people, ready to teleport there within a few rounds in case of troubles.

And if someone was still looking for some way to tamper with it, then the best divinations (including miracle/wish if needed) would be cast by the most powerful spellcasters in the world, to identiffy the treath, and then the aforementioned few dozens of level 15+ people would fall on that treath like a cascade of bricks.

In my campaign world epic levels did not exist, epic magic and feats did not exist, and no one ever went over level 25. So it should be perfectly safe.

[RadicalTurnip]

If the gate can be moved: Drop it into a volcano that is permanently anti-magic'd (Epic Antimagic spell that has a horrible xp penalty but a huge bonus against being overcome or dispelled. Then I only cast it once). If it can't be moved, build a volcano around it. Then of course every anti-divination I can get, as well as anti-teleportation. Then it'll have a few different types of guards: Fire elementals, a permanently dominated or sufficiently coerced Red Dragon (or force/prismatic dragons if I can find them) (it can start as "Adult" or so, it'll only get more powerful), and a Balor that's either dominated or I can somehow force/coerce into guarding it within the magma.

Then a flying fortress above the volcano with every mean trick and terrible trap I can get into it to convince people that the tear is actually guarded by the fortress.

[never_shades]

Do the genesis thing, but move the gate to the bottom of the ocean. Then drop thousands of tonnes of rocks on it. Then ward against teleportation and divination.

[Cavenskull]

If the gate can be moved: Drop it into a volcano that is permanently anti-magic'd (Epic Antimagic spell that has a horrible xp penalty but a huge bonus against being overcome or dispelled. Then I only cast it once). If it can't be moved, build a volcano around it. Then of course every anti-divination I can get, as well as anti-teleportation. Then it'll have a few different types of guards: Fire elementals, a permanently dominated or sufficiently coerced Red Dragon (or force/prismatic dragons if I can find them) (it can start as "Adult" or so, it'll only get more powerful), and a Balor that's either dominated or I can somehow force/coerce into guarding it within the magma.

Then a flying fortress above the volcano with every mean trick and terrible trap I can get into it to convince people that the tear is actually guarded by the fortress.

What would you do to make sure the gate wasn't destroyed when it gets dumped into the volcano?

[The Pilgrim]

I'd just chain Chuck Norris to it and call it a day.

[oppyu]

I think Girard had the right idea; illusions, traps, decoys and secrecy. Even the 'kidnapping babies to raise them into a gate-guarding illusionist cult' part is pretty decent, if you don't care about morality or crazy elf mages casting Familicide.

[OctoberRaven]

Put a gate in the gate so that when someone tries to go though the gate they end up going through the other gate.

GATECEPTION.

EDIT- Serious answer: Build a flesh golem around the gate, then cast Flesh to Stone on the Golem, and a Permanenced Contingency so that if Stone to Flesh is cast on it, Flesh to Stone is cast immediately.

And walls of force around this golem, with a Permanenced Contingency that recasts the walls if they are dispelled, surrounding those will be prismatic walls with the same contingencies, and around the prismatic walls would be 360 Symbols of Death. And around all of that would be a permanenced Alarm. Oh and I'd make myself a lich so I can guard it forever.

[Sapreaver]

Genesis for the plane.
the gate its self will be a door standing in the middle of a room 30ft by 30 ft room inside of a room 15 ft by 15 ft
around this door will be a thousands of small cubes each filled with helium enough to float but not enough rise for ever just fall slowly permanently.

each of the cubes will be trapped with a self resetting arboreal transformation on touch by a non treent.
the floor tiles will each be trapped to give a single mental command to treents to move out side and root. self resetting of course.

so anyone except a treent will become a treent and then leave. the door will be trapped with rock to lava targeting the rock around the door.

The doors around that door are rigged to close and lock when opened and are trapped with internal fire targeting as many living creatures near by.

Upon entering the door it leads to an area that looks the exact same as the room you just went through the portal is invisible and you can see through it as normal.

http://i43.tinypic.com/25kscwx.png

[OctoberRaven]

so anyone except a treent will become a treent and then leave.

"Make like a treent... and get outta here!"- Tan-En, CE Human Barbarian

[Silverionmox]

Create a curse that forces someone to guard the gate and makes them immortal and sleepless. The curse is transferred to anyone killing a cursed person.

[nogall]

Create a curse that forces someone to guard the gate and makes them immortal and sleepless. The curse is transferred to anyone killing a cursed person.

How could they be killed if they are immortal? :smallconfused:

[Cavenskull]

How could they be killed if they are immortal? :smallconfused:
Immortal does not automatically mean invincible. In quite a bit of fiction--Highlander, for instance--immortals do not age, but can still be killed.

[Tragak]

I would want whatever fortress I designed to be defended by recruiting a mixture of mortals, outsiders - preferably Summoned, instead of residential, so that they don't die when they lose a fight - and constructs, just in case somebody came up with an attack that all members of one group or the other would be vulnerable to.

One construct that I would want my subordinates to make a lot of would be intelligent (minimum mental stats: 10 CHA, 12 INT, and 12 WIS) Neutral Good Helms of Opposite Alignment - with HEAVILY increased Save DCs, how would one go about doing that? - that would either warn Good/Neutral people not to put them on or possibly turn off their own curses for those particular people. However, they would still be very obviously enchanted with extremely powerful defenses, so as to would look as tempting as possible - especially with empathic suggestions - to any Evil invaders that kill their previous bearers (who themselves had probably been brainwashed in the same way)*.

*I totally cribbed this idea from Silver :smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

I would also want my soldiers to be trained to Soul Bind slain Evil invaders, lest they take their information on my compound with them to the Infernal Realms (and give it to powerful fiends, voluntarily or otherwise), including the ones that had been previously brainwashed, if they go into the afterlife with their pre-Helm alignment instead of their converted alignment. If they would instead go to the Good afterlife, and Raising them would not break the enchantment, then they would be Raised instead.

If a Bag of Holding were filled to the brim with Soul-Bound sapphires, and then destroyed so that the sapphires would vanish into nothingness, would the souls disappear too, or would they be freed to the Evil afterlife as though the sapphire were destroyed normally?

[OctoberRaven]

How could they be killed if they are immortal? :smallconfused:

Vampires are immortal.

[Tragak]

Vampires are immortal. And was that supposed to explain anything?

[Nilehus]

And was that supposed to explain anything?

Vampires are immortal, but they can still be destroyed and killed. Set them on fire, make them take a walk in the sun, destroy them and their coffin... Immortal doesn't necessarily mean invulnerable. For example, Highlander plays with it both ways. Nothing can kill an Immortal except getting beheaded. So in theory, they could live forever, but considering they feel drawn to dramatic sword battles, not many do. :smalltongue:

[rodneyAnonymous]

There are lots of kinds of immortality, from "can't die, ever, even violently" to "eternal youth but can be killed" to "like a zombie, doesn't age but doesn't heal either".

[Amphiox]

Why create a big, protected dungeon at all? In a D&D setting that's like setting up a big flashing red sign saying "ADVENTURERS PLEASE COME HERE".

Whatever protections you put on the gate itself, make them discrete, and do not disseminate the fact.

Then surround the area with a reverse memory charm that makes anyone crossing into the vicinity forget the reason they were going there in the first place, and specifically to seek out and expunge any memories directly pertaining to the gate/tear.

Immediately within the memory charm zone put a zone of illusions designed to steer your freshly memory wiped travelers, subtly and gently, right back out.

[Lesser Naboo]

Step 1: Figure out how to move a rift. This is the hard part. Maybe a high-level good cleric, or me, if I am one, could convince their god that, as a being of good, they should do everythng they can to prevent the destruction of the world. So gimme that gate ritual.
Step 2: After you have figured out how to move a rift, move it into a specially prepared gate in a genesis demiplane.
Step 3: Use magic items/wish to prevent people from coming in via Wish.
Step 4: Create an auto-resetting trap that continually recasts Dimension Lock. Now there is no way to get onto the demiplane.
Step 5: Drink.

Now, let's say that your wish variant only blocks incoming travel for 1 hour. Use an auto-resetting wish trap to recast that every half hour, for overlapping safety. You can add redundant traps, for safety.
You may want to leave yourself a backdoor. Make it so that only the caster(you), can use it to get in.
Also, incude lots of auto-resetting Greater Dispels, Circle of Death, Undeath to Death, and Imprison. Eventually, they'll fail a save.

If we're talking epic, the principle is basically the same. Just use a permanent epic dimension lock. They'll still eventually fail saves. You just have to take everything up to 11.

Oh, and either way, you can throw in some golems too.

[Finwe]

- Epic spell to grant a massive bonus on "Use Rope" skill.
- Untangle the snarl.
- Gates no longer need defending.

[ZerglingOne]

Hide it inside a nearly endless prismatic fortress (made literally of tons of permanent prismatic walls, yes, even the floors.) In each of the rooms is a permanent cloudkill. Good luck.

[Lord Ruby34]

I think Soon's got the right idea, for the most part. I'd build a dungeon, fill it with traps and monsters, then bind my soul to the gate and kill myself. Blam, a high level undead guardian that can move though walls to mess with adventures at the worst possible times. Like, say, when they have a complex plan to get past my trap and I shank the party rogue from beneath the floorboards.

I'd make sure to ward the place against teleportation and scrying, too. Just to be thorough.

[Amaril]

The first thing I'd do is try to make the actual, direct protections on the gate itself as subtle as possible. I'd hide it in plain sight somewhere--even if anybody knew it was there, I'd set it up so it wasn't interesting enough for anybody to bother finding out what it was (so definitely not protected by a heavily guarded and fortified dungeon that would basically just be so much adventurer-bait). I know I'm not being very specific about any of that, but that's okay, because that part isn't important compared to the real defense.

The real defense on the gate would be an epic abjuration I developed called Nevermore. I originally came up with the idea for this a while after V's Familicide on the dragons, because that got me thinking about things V could have done with his/her newfound powers to make sure none of the dragon's relatives would ever come to avenge her without killing all of them. Later, though, it occurred to me that this would be the perfect for hiding something like a gate as well.

Nevermore is, in essence, simple--it wipes all knowledge of a subject from existence. Completely. When the spell is cast, the caster designates an object, creature, location, event, or some similar target. The spell then alters the memory of every creature in existence so that that target, and anything related to it, is seamlessly edited out. Then it does the same thing for all written or material records of the target, changing them so that any of the pertinent information is no longer included. The caster can choose to exempt themselves from the spell, and even to exempt a small number of other creatures, but doing either drastically increases the spell's difficulty and cost. The intent of Nevermore is basically to do exactly what the Order of the Scribble were hoping to do with the gates--purge all knowledge of them from existence so that nobody ever comes looking for them. It just does it more effectively than any of the Sapphire Guard's crusades ever did.

[Bulldog Psion]

The undead route does seem to be the most practical, though it's an unpleasant solution. Your guardianship will be eternal, and if you're an epic undead, you're one heck of a challenge to boot. Add in conditions that are fatal to the living but that the undead shrug off (poisonous gases, no air, whatever) and you're good to go.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

step 1 Build a gate like the one that was in the first dungeon.
step 2 Create a secret guild of guardians that are one part cult one part Rangers from B5 (like current familiy guarding a gate)
step 3 Create a dungeon that is deminsional locked filled with golems and traps and illusions and seal the room with the gate has no doors, and is full of posion gas. Put a few undead in stasis inside some rooms as 'traps' mostly level drainers and ability score drainers... and put special contingency dispels to get rid of death wards
step 4 over the only entraces to the dungeon (there will be 2) I build a castle that I fill with an elite group of palidens, and a wizard tower that trains wizards (and is really headed by my cult see step 2)
Step 5 build a metroplis around the tower and castle like Azur city
Step 6 craft an epic spell that binds the souls of dead palidens, and cult members to the gate room as special undead (deathless) that are only summoned if someone makes it withing X ft of the gate (xft will be the rooms adjacent to the doorless room).
Step 7 become a lich and study the most awsome combat spells (lots of save or dies) and secretly
Step 8 build a small armu of clones, and simulacrums that I store in temp stasis
Step 9 (well simo with 7 and 8) research spells that remove all knowladge of the gates and rifts from the world...
Step 10 be called a munchkin power gamer and get told I may have gone too far..

[Rakoa]

I wouldn't need to be an epic level character to protect my gate. Why, I would just need to be a level one Kobold Psion. See, my first step would be to summon Pazuzu...

[JBiddles]

Have O-Chul swallow it. Job done.

In all seriousness, can the Gate be moved? If so, abjure it to kingdom come (e.g. against divination and teleportation to it, spells to rewrite the memory of anybody who somehow finds it so that they think it was a decoy, etc.), blindly teleport it into solid rock beneath the ocean, then remove the memory of doing so - in fact, of your Gate's very existence - from your own mind. Make a decoy Gate-dungeon, or several, with Epic illusions for the Gate and Rift. Make it your mission in life to mind-wipe everybody who knows of the Gates aside from yourself, then before you die of old age, do the same to yourself. If you don't succeed in doing so before death, make sure your corpse is Disintegrated so nobody can Speak With Dead about the existence of Gates.

If the Gate cannot be moved, move something to the gate - Stone Shape as much earth over it as possible. Mind-wipe and move any citizens nearby. Don't use magic directly on it (unless you can disguise the magic, in which case make it look like rock and abjure as above) in case any Outsiders get tingly teeth from it. Mind-wipe your Gate's existence from yourself. Proceed as of the third sentence above.

[The Pilgrim]

Ok, since my suggestion of hiring Chuck Norris was not appreciated, I'll write a somewhat serious proposal.

My way of defending a Gate is based on the following principles:

1) Simplicity works best.
2) The best way to hide a book, is in a library, among other books.
3) My people works on a need-to-know basis.

Following those principles, the exact details of my defense would depend on which gate I've been assigned, and the circumstances around it.

1) No matter which Gate I'm assigned, I'll cast on the gate as many abjurations and stuff as Xykon and Redcloak casted on the Philactery, then double that number. The objective would be to make the think totally indetectable by magical or any other means. Things like the Oracle would probably still be able to locate the Gate, but the good news is that things like the Oracle rely on the Gods, and the Gods have a blackout on info about the Rifts.

Nedless to say, I would NOT share the location of my gate with the other members of the Order. Sure, they'll remember the general area in which it is located, but that's bad enough. No exact coordinates.

2) If it's Lirian Gate, I'll grow a tree all around it, so that the Gate is buried inside it's trunk. Added to the abjurations, the Gate is now hidden in a tree inside the biggest forest in the world. Good luck finding it.

3) If it's Dorukan, I'll seal it inside a rock, merge it with the mountain, make the mountain grow so that the rock is left well inside it, and make sure no valuable minerals are left in or near that mountain.

4) If it's Soon, I'll seal it inside a totally epic awesome gem, part of a totally epic awesome decoration, of a totally epic awesome temple. Of course, the official and canonical explanation of why I've build all that is not that I need to protect some Gate, but that I want to praise the Twelve Gods or whatever. Anyone attemping to tamper with the Gate would be also tampering with the historical and artistic patrimony of a major civilization. Good Luck trying to get into Azure City's version of the Sistine Chapel and perform a ritual that takes several weeks to finish.

In the rare event that anyone finds info about the true nature of the Temple and exposes it, he'll be discredited as a conspirancy theorist and Dan Brown wannabe.

5) I'm yet to see Giriard's or Kraagor's, so I can't develope a plan to protect those gates yet.

6) No matter which Gate I'm assigned, it would have an alert system so that the very moment anyone touches it, a warning is sent to the HQ of my secret organization of sicaries who are sworn-bound to defend it.

Paladins, Illusionists, Druids, Dragons, Dragons juggling other dragons who juggle other dragons... whatever floats your boat. The important thing is that said HQ would be thousands of kilometers away from the Gate, and my organization wouldn't even know the location of the Gate (if the alarm is triggered, they receive a signal with the exact coordinates, but that's about it).

So, now, any idiot attemping to find my Gate, and lucky enough to get any info, will be directed to my HQ, forced to defeat my organization, and even if they defeat it, they would get nothing because my organization would have no info on the Gate. The baddies can start digging around my HQ if they please, unaware of the fact that my Gate is thousands of km away, on the other side of the world.

7) I would feign my own death in the face of my organization, and secretly retire to my own HQ, far from the HQ of my organization, and also far from the Gate. Then select some of the many means available in D&D to attain immortality.

From there I'll not monitor the Gate (so no one could locate it via intercepting my scrying). I'd be informed by the mentioned alarm system if anyone touches it. And that's about it.

I'll not monitor my organization, either. I'll just set some alarm system so if my organization is vanquised (or decides to change it's goals) I'd be informed. In that event, I will of course not attemp to wrest control of my former HQ from the Villiain. I'll let him seach pointlessly for my Gate there, and set up another organization somewhere else.

My only luxury will be to remain informed about the political happenings in the region surrounding my Gate. So, if someone begins to mass chop trees on Lirian's Forest, or digs frantically in Redmountain Hills, or profanates Azure City's historical patrimony, I'll know. Those are the kind of things you can hardly do in secret. Of course, I'll get my info just via the Teevo or the newspapers, and don't keep an archive about news on the region or some other stupid thing that could be used as a clue to find my Gate if any villiain finds my home.

8) Finally, I'll burn Serini's diary and smack that idiot for ever writing it.

And that's about it, basically.

[Lord Torath]

Put a gate in the gate so that when someone tries to go though the gate they end up going through the other gate.

GATECEPTION.

EDIT- Serious answer: Build a flesh golem around the gate, then cast Flesh to Stone on the Golem, and a Permanenced Contingency so that if Stone to Flesh is cast on it, Flesh to Stone is cast immediately.

And walls of force around this golem, with a Permanenced Contingency that recasts the walls if they are dispelled, surrounding those will be prismatic walls with the same contingencies, and around the prismatic walls would be 360 Symbols of Death. And around all of that would be a permanenced Alarm. Oh and I'd make myself a lich so I can guard it forever.So the central eye of your standard Beholder will open a path right through, as well as deactivating the flesh golem. Ducky!

(This also works on the Prismatic Palace)

And of course, the gates cannot be moved, which is why the throne room was built where was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html).

[OctoberRaven]

So the central eye of your standard Beholder will open a path right through, as well as deactivating the flesh golem. Ducky!


Nope. Prismatic Walls are unaffected by antimagic fields.

[orrion]

The first thing I'd do is try to make the actual, direct protections on the gate itself as subtle as possible. I'd hide it in plain sight somewhere--even if anybody knew it was there, I'd set it up so it wasn't interesting enough for anybody to bother finding out what it was (so definitely not protected by a heavily guarded and fortified dungeon that would basically just be so much adventurer-bait). I know I'm not being very specific about any of that, but that's okay, because that part isn't important compared to the real defense.

The real defense on the gate would be an epic abjuration I developed called Nevermore. I originally came up with the idea for this a while after V's Familicide on the dragons, because that got me thinking about things V could have done with his/her newfound powers to make sure none of the dragon's relatives would ever come to avenge her without killing all of them. Later, though, it occurred to me that this would be the perfect for hiding something like a gate as well.

Nevermore is, in essence, simple--it wipes all knowledge of a subject from existence. Completely. When the spell is cast, the caster designates an object, creature, location, event, or some similar target. The spell then alters the memory of every creature in existence so that that target, and anything related to it, is seamlessly edited out. Then it does the same thing for all written or material records of the target, changing them so that any of the pertinent information is no longer included. The caster can choose to exempt themselves from the spell, and even to exempt a small number of other creatures, but doing either drastically increases the spell's difficulty and cost. The intent of Nevermore is basically to do exactly what the Order of the Scribble were hoping to do with the gates--purge all knowledge of them from existence so that nobody ever comes looking for them. It just does it more effectively than any of the Sapphire Guard's crusades ever did.

You needed V to give you that idea?

http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Chainfire_%28spell%29

"The Chainfire spell is one of the most powerful spells of all time, causing what is known as a Chainfire event. It uses Subtractive Magic to remove all traces of its victim from existence, from other peoples' memories of them to physical evidences like tracks. Its effects are so extensive that Chainfire has the potential to unravel reallity."

:smallwink:

[Landis963]

Ok, since my suggestion of hiring Chuck Norris was not appreciated, I'll write a somewhat serious proposal.

My way of defending a Gate is based on the following principles:

1) Simplicity works best.
2) The best way to hide a book, is in a library, among other books.
3) My people works on a need-to-know basis.

Following those principles, the exact details of my defense would depend on which gate I've been assigned, and the circumstances around it.

1) No matter which Gate I'm assigned, I'll cast on the gate as many abjurations and stuff as Xykon and Redcloak casted on the Philactery, then double that number. The objective would be to make the think totally indetectable by magical or any other means. Things like the Oracle would probably still be able to locate the Gate, but the good news is that things like the Oracle rely on the Gods, and the Gods have a blackout on info about the Rifts.

Nedless to say, I would NOT share the location of my gate with the other members of the Order. Sure, they'll remember the general area in which it is located, but that's bad enough. No exact coordinates.

2) If it's Lirian Gate, I'll grow a tree all around it, so that the Gate is buried inside it's trunk. Added to the abjurations, the Gate is now hidden in a tree inside the biggest forest in the world. Good luck finding it.

3) If it's Dorukan, I'll seal it inside a rock, merge it with the mountain, make the mountain grow so that the rock is left well inside it, and make sure no valuable minerals are left in or near that mountain.

4) If it's Soon, I'll seal it inside a totally epic awesome gem, part of a totally epic awesome decoration, of a totally epic awesome temple. Of course, the official and canonical explanation of why I've build all that is not that I need to protect some Gate, but that I want to praise the Twelve Gods or whatever. Anyone attemping to tamper with the Gate would be also tampering with the historical and artistic patrimony of a major civilization. Good Luck trying to get into Azure City's version of the Sistine Chapel and perform a ritual that takes several weeks to finish.

In the rare event that anyone finds info about the true nature of the Temple and exposes it, he'll be discredited as a conspirancy theorist and Dan Brown wannabe.

5) I'm yet to see Giriard's or Kraagor's, so I can't develope a plan to protect those gates yet.

6) No matter which Gate I'm assigned, it would have an alert system so that the very moment anyone touches it, a warning is sent to the HQ of my secret organization of sicaries who are sworn-bound to defend it.

Paladins, Illusionists, Druids, Dragons, Dragons juggling other dragons who juggle other dragons... whatever floats your boat. The important thing is that said HQ would be thousands of kilometers away from the Gate, and my organization wouldn't even know the location of the Gate (if the alarm is triggered, they receive a signal with the exact coordinates, but that's about it).

So, now, any idiot attemping to find my Gate, and lucky enough to get any info, will be directed to my HQ, forced to defeat my organization, and even if they defeat it, they would get nothing because my organization would have no info on the Gate. The baddies can start digging around my HQ if they please, unaware of the fact that my Gate is thousands of km away, on the other side of the world.

7) I would feign my own death in the face of my organization, and secretly retire to my own HQ, far from the HQ of my organization, and also far from the Gate. Then select some of the many means available in D&D to attain immortality.

From there I'll not monitor the Gate (so no one could locate it via intercepting my scrying). I'd be informed by the mentioned alarm system if anyone touches it. And that's about it.

I'll not monitor my organization, either. I'll just set some alarm system so if my organization is vanquised (or decides to change it's goals) I'd be informed. In that event, I will of course not attemp to wrest control of my former HQ from the Villiain. I'll let him seach pointlessly for my Gate there, and set up another organization somewhere else.

My only luxury will be to remain informed about the political happenings in the region surrounding my Gate. So, if someone begins to mass chop trees on Lirian's Forest, or digs frantically in Redmountain Hills, or profanates Azure City's historical patrimony, I'll know. Those are the kind of things you can hardly do in secret. Of course, I'll get my info just via the Teevo or the newspapers, and don't keep an archive about news on the region or some other stupid thing that could be used as a clue to find my Gate if any villiain finds my home.

8) Finally, I'll burn Serini's diary and smack that idiot for ever writing it.

And that's about it, basically.

Few things:
5) If Girard's gate isn't actually in Windy Canyon, then it's in a spot in the desert Windy Canyon's in, and good luck finding that. If it's Kraagor's gate, then it's in Kraagor's tomb, which means it's in a mausoleum. Make the spot into a public or family crypt and you're set. Either way, your principle of "hide a book in a library" holds.

7) Just set up a voice-activated heuristic like Girard did at the decoy spot. that way, if anyone discussed the Gate (or Gates) you would get a lovely little soundbite you could use to plan your next move.

Also, I think a lot of these defense schemes could be improved with the "sphere of annihilation" trick minus the secret door.

[Winter Light]

Ahhh, this topic again...

My Assumptions / Ground Rules:
1) The gates cannot be moved, plane-shifted, etc., short of the Dark One's ritual or similar deific intervention.
2) No epic magic cheese--no "I make an epic spell that ____". Nothing above the power level of Cloister--and I intend to stay well below that.
3) It can be assumed that at some point, someone with more power, resources, etc., than me will come along.
4) No obscure splatbooks.
5) No "cheats". No lines of 600 peasants passing a steel rod to accelerate it to explosive velocities.

For my epic-level character, I choose Wizard with a focus in Divination. If PrCs are being used, I'd go Mystic Theurge. It's a nice bonus, but not, ultimately, necessary.

Step 1) Defense.
I'll need a dungeon. As long as it isn't an aerial gate, anyway. Construction can be done with, well, constructs. Or just magic. Involving anyone who could gossip is undesirable, beyond the smallest extent necessary (though... see below).
For rank-and-file defenders, constructs, constructs, constructs! They're long-lasting, low-maintenance, and tend to do well against spellcasters (which, realistically, are the biggest risk to a gate). Some traps, too, because why not. If possible, I'll look into creating some kind of golem-assembly-line, with a magically-created intelligence in charge of it (someone just trashed the golems on the first floor; replace them). Doesn't need to be too fancy, and needs to not be too smart. Optional, but helps keep the place low-maintenance.

Step 2) The Gate
Simple, here. If the gate's tampered with, the place self-destructs, unconditionally.

Step 3) Warding, etc.
Dimension locks, abjurations spammed all over the place, the usual. Taking all steps necessary to avoid other people scrying, teleporting in, or otherwise bypassing my defenses. Have to make them look convincing, after all!

Step 4) I'm a Diviner, remember?
Research various divination spells specifically for this purpose. Ones to keep my appraised of the situation in the gate's dungeon, alert me of any issues (failed, or successful, teleports into it; the gate blowing itself up; the gate failing to blow itself up; heck, even just if there are any intruders).

Should anything occur, the first step is, of course, to spam-scry the place, maybe view the past day or so of events, and, most importantly, who will be involved. I think I'll research an epic spell capable of accepting a target along the lines of "that lich and his goblin who entered the gate room just before it blew up" and gathering as much information as possible (for an epic spell) about them. I can add some prohibitive requirements (focii, make a ritual, whatever), since it won't be used on-the-spot.

The reason why diviner is chosen is mostly for the above reasons. Additionally, it is relatively less likely that someone planning to take over the world will be a diviner than another class--that's just not how the story tends to play out. Thus, even if they're more powerful than me (say, a level 24+ epic lich sorcerer), I will most likely be able to beat them in my area of expertise.


Step 5) ...But not too well-hidden.
I'm a high-level Wizard, I have a respectable Int score (and Wis, if I'm fortunate enough to get to be a PrC). Plus, I have abusive divination powers! Using these, I'll take steps to make me gate seem like one of the least-well-defended (and probably ensure that it is), and most poorly-hidden. It'll be the one which, if a person wanted access to a gate, would make the most tempting target, and ideally the one they'd go for first.


Then I wait! When a villain comes along, they'll hopefully go after my gate, if not first, relatively early on. Them doing so will allow me to start doing my whole "epic diviner" thing, gathering as much information as possible about them, their abilities, their goals, their movements, their base(s) of operation, and so on. That information, of course, gets passed on to the defenders of other gates. If the enemy is so overwhelmingly powerful that none of the gate-defenders, or powerful adventurers around the world, can stop them even with that level of information--well, there was never really any chance to begin with, was there?


Of course, this has the problem of needing me to be alive for it to work, so...


Step 6) Become immortal!
Lichdom doesn't sound too bad, but losing out on coffee would be a bummer. The soul-hidey-place is especially nice. Still, it's kind of evil, so maybe not the "undead" route. Perhaps an epic item of some sort. 'Immortal' is probably less accurate than 'ageless'; I'm an epic diviner, if I can't avoid being surprise-ganked I probably deserve to die. A non-evil way to respawn some period after death would be nice, but eh, not mandatory.


Step 7) Get a hobby.
Maybe I'll take up painting. I really don't want to be spamming divination at that stupid gate for the rest of forever, so I'll rely on a Permanency'd "alert" system to let me know when I should actually bother cracking open the old spell book again.
I'll live a quiet life, probably. Not "so I can't be tracked down and have information extracted"--but because I want to enjoy my retirement.


Voila~
A gate defense plan that does not rely on assuming my enemies are weaker or less competent than I, or rely on "and then I just win, kthxbai" epic magic.

[invinible]

I would build a pony kingdom around the gate than try to keep that kingdom as well protected as possible.

[Bulldog Psion]

(lots of good stuff)

Your idea is probably the one that would defend a Gate the best out of the ones that have been offered so far.

[Edric O]

My plan depends on the number of people who know about its existence. I assume the Gate can't be moved, because defending a movable Gate is trivial (just shove it off into a demiplane or encase it in rock at the bottom of the ocean, as others have suggested).

So, I have two possible routes to follow:

1. If the existence of the Gate is only known by a few people - bury it.

In this situation, I would begin by encasing the gate in the strongest material I can find, then cast on it every abjuration I can muster. Then I would bury it under as much rock as possible without changing the general look of the landscape (so if it's in the mountains, I'd bury it under a mountain, but if it's in the hills or plains I would only bury it under a hill). No dungeon, no traps, no guardians. I would make the place look as unremarkable and mundane as possible.

Then I would kill and disintegrate the bodies of everyone who knows about the Gate. If this requires wiping out a small village or such, I would make sure to come up with a fake motive for the murders, so that I seem to be a villain killing innocent people for vengeance or personal gain.

2. If the number of people who know about the Gate and/or Rift is large (say, more than a thousand) - make it public knowledge. I would encase it in the strongest material I can find, then encase that in solid rock, at least 100 metres thick... then build a big flashy monument around it, with stone inscriptions in every language explaining what it is and why it should never be tampered with. But the monument would have no treasure, nothing valuable inside it at all, no traps and no guardians. Then I would make sure to inform every major government and powerful organization on the planet about it. That way, the entire combined military might of the civilized races will be my Gate guardians. They can build additional defenses as they see fit. Then, if some madman decides to go for the Gate (even if that madman happens to rule a nation), he'll have to fight the entire rest of the world to achieve his goal. My job is done.

Either way, I would use no dungeons, no traps or creatures, and no epic spells (except abjurations, if I have access to them). The idea is to make it so that no one even thinks to take control of the Gate, either because it's buried and no one ever heard of it, or because everyone knows about it and you can't possibly seize it in secret. The first option is preferable, but it can only be done if it is feasible to kill everyone who knows about the Gate without arousing suspicion.

[JBiddles]

The best place to hide a book is not in a library, it's where nobody would ever look for a book and wouldn't find it if they did, with believable decoys in libraries. Therefore, if you're lucky enough to have a Gate in the wilderness, you use magic to bury your Gate with solid rock and then build a grand fortress somewhere else. However, assume the Gate is in a populated area and you are ethical so you can't just cover it with rock:

1. Lie to your companions about your Gate's location and defences, destroy Serini's diary (honestly, what were they thinking?) then fake your own death. Have it happen in a dungeon you built, spreading the rumour that your ghost is bound to defend said dungeon, along with a plethora of nasty wards. The dungeon, of course, has a fake Gate with a load of magical traps.

2. Change your identity. If possible, make sure there are appearances of your new identity before your death. Ideally, use magic to make it seem you were both in the same room at some public ceremony.

3. Become ruler of the area in which your Gate is located via whatever means necessary. Charm Person, Suggestion, Alter Self... it shouldn't be too hard for an epic character. Tell the populace that you're a low-level wizard with Enchantment and Illusion as your barred schools and specialism in Conjuration, so they don't become suspicious, and to prepare for step 4.

4. If knowledge of the Gate's existence, if not its nature, has become common knowledge amongst the populace, make a show of easily removing the Gate (use an epic invisibility spell in case anybody has True Seeing). Say it was a minor planar rupture you closed and nothing to worry about.

5. Announce that to celebrate something-or-other, you're building a new castle. Clear the area around your now-invisible Gate and cover it with abjurations that make Xykon's phylactery look like a Coke can.
Build a small hill and the foundations over it. Build your castle, and use epic magic to make it the biggest, shiniest and most artistically valuable castle the world has ever seen. Hopefully, the area becomes heavily populated from tourist revenue. Spread the rumour that a powerful magical being owed you a favour, explaining why there's magic all over the place and you built it quickly.

7. Flood the world with rumours about the Gate your previous identity was charged with guarding, obviously under a third identity. Make some wild, some vague, but make one point to your decoy. Have the story of how the third identity died painfully trying to enter your decoy told to everybody.


This method relies on misdirecting would-be Gate-users, as opposed to the brute-force strategies employed by Dorukan and Girard, who simply slapped a dungeon full of monsters around their Gates, which is great until Xykon comes along. However, this method prevents anybody from going for your Gate in the first place, and also protects the Gate directly.

[The Pilgrim]

Few things:
5) If Girard's gate isn't actually in Windy Canyon, then it's in a spot in the desert Windy Canyon's in, and good luck finding that. If it's Kraagor's gate, then it's in Kraagor's tomb, which means it's in a mausoleum. Make the spot into a public or family crypt and you're set. Either way, your principle of "hide a book in a library" holds.

7) Just set up a voice-activated heuristic like Girard did at the decoy spot. that way, if anyone discussed the Gate (or Gates) you would get a lovely little soundbite you could use to plan your next move.

Also, I think a lot of these defense schemes could be improved with the "sphere of annihilation" trick minus the secret door.

The problem of a voice-activated heuristic, is that someone looking for my Gate could activate it just by passing by, without having necessary found the Gate. Mind Lirian's, I don't want anyone activating the alarm just because they happen to be taking a walk through the forest. Becomes more of a problem in case of Soon's, where a lot of people a day are gonna visit the place.

And if the alarm is triggered, it would leave a signature, allowing a magic user to back-track the location of the Gate, my HQ, and the HQ of my organization.

So I want to ensure that the alarm is only triggered when it's absolutely necessary: when someone has found my Gate. Activation by Touch is the first think I thought about, though I suppose a better condition may be formulated.

[Kiraxa]

*snip*
Lichdom doesn't sound too bad, but losing out on coffee would be a bummer. The soul-hidey-place is especially nice. Still, it's kind of evil, so maybe not the "undead" route. Perhaps an epic item of some sort. 'Immortal' is probably less accurate than 'ageless'; I'm an epic diviner, if I can't avoid being surprise-ganked I probably deserve to die. A non-evil way to respawn some period after death would be nice, but eh, not mandatory.

*/snip*

3rd edition rules allows for Good liches (per Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn). The main differences is they aren't hostile to clerics, and they don't have the fear aura. 3.5 monstrous manual states always evil for Liches, but being as they're missing those two facets, I'd say they warrant their own MM section. Spelljammer allows for Archliches, which is more accurately what Xykon is (no spellbooks, just instinctive learning/casting.) and 4th edition brought Archliches back for good, lawful, or non-aligned players.

[Lord Torath]

Nope. Prismatic Walls are unaffected by antimagic fields.Hmmm... There's no mention of them being immune to anti-magic in the 2nd Edition spell description. Must have changed since then. Fair enough.

2nd Edition introduced the Arch Lich in a Spelljammer supplement (Lost Ships), which I believe was the first Good Lich. Lots of advantages over the evil versions.

[OctoberRaven]

Hmmm... There's no mention of them being immune to anti-magic in the 2nd Edition spell description. Must have changed since then. Fair enough.

Actually it's in the spell description of Antimagic Field in 3.5.

And in any case, the flesh golem isn't there to be anything but another barrier. That's why Flesh To Stone is cast on it instead of just making it a stone golem.

EDIT- Plus, the only important ward is Alarm. Everything else is just to keep them busy while I Teleport Without Error to a vantage point where I can assess the situation.

[RadicalTurnip]

Create an epic spell to move the solar system a few earth-lengths away from the gate. Exactly how powerful of an epic character am I again? :smallbiggrin:

[JBiddles]

^Even if you could pull off the spell and it didn't destroy the solar system, Greater Teleport doesn't have distance limitations.

[EmperorSarda]

Create an epic spell to move the solar system a few earth-lengths away from the gate. Exactly how powerful of an epic character am I again? :smallbiggrin:

If you can teleport the Solar System, why not use a modified version of Redcloak's Ritual to teleport the gate to another plan and then into the sun?

[OctoberRaven]

^Even if you could pull off the spell and it didn't destroy the solar system, Greater Teleport doesn't have distance limitations.

No, but... well, what book is "Protection From The Vacuum Of Space" in? :smallwink:

[Kiraxa]

No, but... well, what book is "Protection From The Vacuum Of Space" in? :smallwink:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Environment_and_Hazards#VACUUM

[Lord Torath]

No, but... well, what book is "Protection From The Vacuum Of Space" in? :smallwink:
Spelljammer. Teleporting into the void leaves you with 2d20 rounds of breathable air. Or just bring your ship with you for 4 man-months of breathable air per 100 cubic yards of volume of your ship.

Also, the Mantle of Celestian has the principle power of allowing you to survive in the void of outer space.

Edit: Of course, Space is BIG, even in Spelljammer. If you can make it effectively immune to divinations, then just put it somewhere out in the far reaches of the crystal sphere (and far above or below the ecliptic plane), and the odds of anyone finding it are extremely slim. Especially if you cloak it in Continual Darkness. Unless it masses more than 10 SJ tons (1000 cubic yards), any ship that actually happens to come close will whip right by at 4 million miles per hour. Waaaay too fast to notice a small black patch against a black background.

Of course, this all hinges on being able to move the rift/gate relative to the planetary system/crystal sphere.

[Valtiel]

I have some absurd ideas about completely surrounding the gate with a shell made entirely out of Spheres of Annihilation, guarded by a construct or other endlessly-patient entity with some obscenely large bonus to controlling the spheres.

Just hiding the thing seems tempting. A simple sheet of lead will block most divinatory magic that targets objects. Discern Location can only find objects if the caster once touched them, which is useless for finding the Gate. Wish, while powerful, doesn't have special provisions for finding things - it just duplicates high-level divinations. You could, in theory, use the "transport travellers" feature of Wish to teleport yourself directly to the Gate, but then you'd be at the mercy of its defences. Miracle is a bit more flexible, but the gods have an embargo on knowledge of the rifts, so it wouldn't work. Legend Lore only gets you "vague and incomplete" information if rumours are all you start out with.

[WizardsLaw12]

Alright, so, this will be my first post - and to protect a Gate MY way, I would first need to know how big it is. If it's small, like Soon's Gate, then I'd hide the Gate somewhere so far away from the place it was found, it's unlikely anyone will find it. If it's as big as Dorukan's Gate, then we're going to need a way to protect it well enough that it's not gonna be defenseless.

Plan A: For a gate as small as, say, Soon's Gate, I'd first cast the same amount of abjurations on it as there are on Xykon's phylactery - and then quintuple that number. Then, I'd completely surround it with lead(I wouldn't need a lot, probably), and then make sure that the lead is also protected by the same abjurations, so no one can break the lead without high-level spells or a lot of magic gear.

Once the Gate is fully surrounded by lead, I'd lock the Gate and the lead inside a small multidimensional stone box with every abjuration known to magic-users - including divine casters, if I can recruit any. Then, I'd make a small army of undead to protect it - I'm thinking zombie dragons and maybe some mummies.

Then, I'd make myself a lich to guard the Gate forever once I'm high-Epic level(Level 30, to be precise) - using the Gate itself as my phylactery, and using enough spells to make my reforming immediate. I'd make more and more undead with everyone that comes in here after my undead army slays them, and once my army has swelled enough in numbers that it doesn't matter how little there is, anyone against me will lose, I'll leave my Gate for a while, make myself a fortress below the hidden dungeon that my Gate will be in once I construct it - and once my fortress is complete, I'll start work on the whole dungeon.

Once it's finished, I'll add protection to the dungeon (I'm thinking using a combo of every last protection for my Gate, like, say, Lirian's Guardian Virus, Dorukan's Cloister spell, Soon's army of ghosts bound to protecting the Gate, Girard's Epic-level phantasm in all corridors leading to the Gate itself, and finally, Serini's swap-overs to really mess with people when they're supposed to be in the same room as the Gate, but undetectable by anyone but an Epic-level Rogue), and once that's finished, my Gate will be safe for good.

However...in the off-chance that someone actually gets to my Gate...it'll magically alert me if anyone tries, and I'll go there to stop the adventurers. And the best part is, I can keep doing it, over and over, for as long as I need!

Plan B: If my Gate is as big as, say, Dorukan's Gate, then I'd need a far different plan - and it'd be HIGHLY unlikely that I wouldn't need game-breaking tactics like Disenchanters and Paragon-level Rust Monsters. I'd have to make a FAR bigger box of lead for my Gate (maybe I could use a permanent Creation spell to make the giant box?), and it'd take me quite a while to do it.

I'd also make exact replicas of my Gate - and exact replicas of my entire dungeon, sending them all out to the world - making sure that only I could tell the difference. And after the replicas were sent out, I'd personally make sure to not tell anyone the true dungeon - and make sure that the coordinates of the real one were never leaked(seriously, not smart, Order of the Scribs!), not even to my most trusted friends - because if they die before me, someone could take where they put the coordinates.

Once the copies had been scattered, I'd cast a permanent Mind Blank on myself to make myself immune to magical means of making me leak the true dungeon - and make myself resilient to pain so much, no form of torture could work on me to make me talk.

Then, I'd hide. I'd only interfere when it's necessary. Maybe I could hide out in the Astral Plane until I'm needed. Maybe I might make myself an undead dedicated to guarding the Gate by any means necessary. Point is, I'd make it so that no one person could enter my dungeon and get to the Gate alive - it'd take a high-Epic balanced party to get to my Gate.

[Grendelkin]

Step 1: Very publically "go mad". Pretend I've gone Halaster Blackcloak when I, in fact, retain as much of my sanity as I've ever had.

Step 1-A: Acquire spells, powers and gizmos as needed to be able to completely cloak myself from attempts to scan or locate me using magic, psionics, incarnum or whatever's going.

Step 2: Unleash a series of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions in a wide area around the location of the Gate. These must be precisely calibrated to rearrange the landscape while not impacting the Gate.

Step 2-A: While the earthquakes etc. are still ongoing, construct layers of earth and stone over the gate, effectively burying it. Coat the thing in lead and cast permanent abjurations on it to make sure it can't be magically detected.

Step 3: Use the Origin of Species epic spell to create a species of mind-numbingly dull humanoids. They're not good, they're not evil, they're just blah. They're content to lead dull lives, doing repetitive jobs in a dull place. Have them set up villages and farms on the land over the Gate.

Step 4: Very publically construct a dungeon in one of the new mountain ranges raised during step 2, at perhaps a week's travel from the dull people's homes. Fill dungeon with vicious traps, more vicious beasts, and set up spells to summon, burn, freeze, slice and dice to taste. Appoint the cruelest creatures that will work for coin to serve as dungeon commanders, and tell them that they need to guard the innermost chamber.

Step 5: Ward innermost chamber with every abjuration spell available, then place mirrors of opposition on every available surface. Lock and bolt innermost room and set the most powerful creature you can hire or summon to guard it.

Step 6: Create a private demiplane using the Genesis epic spell, then set up shop as a scholar / healer in the dull people's town. Sit back, relax and watch creatures interested in the Gate pass through, pay the dull people for supplies, then march off to hurl themselves into the hideous meatgrinder you've set up for them. See also step 1-A.

Step 7: Perform maintenance as necessary. If some whackjob lich starts murdering the dull people before going into the dungeon, retreat into previously-prepared demiplane and wait. When he leaves, come back out and restock dull people and meatgrinder for the next chump to come along.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Gates shouldn't be defended with Necromancy