Varient: constant damage crits

[Yakk]

Crits devolve into an efficient way to deal bonus damage as the game progresses and bonus damage outpaces weapon damage.

So here is an attempt to change this. Under this system, you have the same "roll to crit" and "confirm the crit" method. But instead of multiplying damage done, you get a fixed bonus damage if you get a crit.

This varies from +5 damage from a longsword up to +20 damage from a Scythe.


Weapon Crit Table
{table=head]Weapon|
Damage|
Old Crit|
New Crit|
New Avg.[br]Damage|
Amount[br]from Crit

1 handed martial
Longsword|
1d8|
19-20,x2|
19-20,+5|
5.0|
0.5

Battleaxe|
1d8|
20,x3|
20,+10|
5.0|
0.5

Scimitar/Rapier|
1d6|
18-20,x2|
18-20,+10|
5.0|
1.5

Heavy Pick|
1d6|
20,x4|
19-20,+15|
5.0|
1.5

Shortsword|
1d6|
19-20,x2|
19-20,+5|
4.0|
0.5

1 handed weak crits

Heavy Mace|
1d8|
20,x2|
20,+5|
4.75|
0.25

*|
?|
20,x2|
20,+5|
?|
0.25

2 handed martial

Falchion|
2d4|
18-20,x2|
17-20,+15|
8.0|
3.0

Greatsword|
2d6|
19-20,x2|
18-20,+7|
8.05|
1.05

Greataxe|
1d12|
20-20,x3|
19-20,+15|
8.0|
1.5

Scythe|
2d4|
20-20,x4|
18-20,+20|
8.0|
3.0

2 handed weak crits

Greatclub|
1d10|
20,x2|
20,+10|
6.0|
0.5

*|
?|
20,x2|
20,+10|
?|
0.5[/table]

Double weapons and ranged weapons are treated like two 1 handed weapons.

I "spread" the crits of two handed weapons because, in order to give two handed weapons a chance against one handed weapons, they needed some significant crit damage. I was reaching +30 damage from a crit, and I considered that excessive.

For other weapons, simply use the weapon with the same Crit range and multiplier.

Two handed weapons that are being used one handed (and aren't getting a 1.5 strength multiplier) should have their +damage on a crit halved.

[Wizzardman]

Wow...that really makes crits awesome.

Scythe: 2d4+20 [avg 25] rather than 4d4 [avg 10].

Suddenly, scythe are actually useful! Only if they crit, of course, but still!

[Ping_T._Squirrel]

I am not sure if that really changes much. Infact, it sort of nerfs criticals. Bare with me.

You have the Scythe used by a level 12 fighter. Lets say his damage bonuses look like this

- +10 for Power Attack
- +4 for Weapon Specialization
- +3 for Weapon Enchanment
- +5 for strength

Or +22 in total. Not too unreasonable. And on a crit, that becomes a whopping 8d4+88 damage! Yikes.

Under the preposed system, you just do 2d4 + 42. Still not bad, but nothing like above.

[Tack122]

Scythe is x4 damage on a crit (8d4) so its average does increase...
Not as fun in my opinion, I like lots of dice ^^

[Yakk]

Yes, it both nerfs and boosts crits.

First, note I changed the threat ranges on some weapons. In general, tighter crit weapons still get tighter ranges, but for some I made it broader.

Two handed weapons, in particular, had their threat ranges broadened. The alternative was rather huge +damage effects on them. (Scythe with +80 damage... sure that's only 4 average per hit, but EECK!)

It nerfs crits in the delivery of +damage. At high levels, crits became a heck of alot about delivery of +damage.

It boosts crits when you lack metric tonnes of +damage.

Notice the Scyth now has a crit range of 18-20, instead of 20.

I figured handing out weapons with +60 crit damage was overkill.

As it stands with the above table, crits are less powerful for a L 20 character.

Take a 28 strength barbarian, raging to 36, with a +5 weapon.

+18 1 H, +11 off-H, +24 2H

On targets that you can hit during your threat range:
A 19x2 crit boosts damage by 10%.
18x2 +15%
20x3 +10%
20x4 +15%
20x2 +5%

Longsword avg crit +damage on barbarian, SRD: +2.2
Longsword avg crit +damage on barbarian, using above: +0.5

Scimitar avg crit +damage on barbarian, SRD: +3.2
Scimitar avg crit +damage on barbarian, above: +1.5

Keen doubles the above numbers.

The two-handed numbers are designed to balance against the double-crit-damage you get from dual wielding.

The core of the system, to make it somewhat balanced between weapons, is:
1> Scimitars and Longswords should do the same average damage.
2> Two handed weapons should have about twice the crit damage of one handed weapons.
3> Amount of damage bonus should be based off the crit range and multiplier, not based off the weapon damage, for the most part. 2 pip weapons should be about equal, 3 pip weapons should be about equal (2 pip 2 handed should have twice the bonus of 2 pip 1 handed, 3 pip 2 handed twice 3 pip 1 handed, etc).


Here is a second table. Higher damage on this one.



Alternate Weapon Crit Table
{table=head]Weapon|
Damage|
Old Crit|
New Crit|
New Avg.[br]Damage|
Amount[br]from Crit

1 handed martial
Longsword|
1d8|
19-20,x2|
19-20,+11|
5.6|
1.1

Battleaxe|
1d8|
20,x3|
20,+20|
5.5|
1.0

Rapier|
1d6|
18-20,x2|
17-20,+10|
5.5|
2.0

Scimitar|
1d6|
18-20,x2|
18-20,+14|
5.6|
2.1

Heavy Pick|
1d6|
20,x4|
19-20,+20|
5.5|
2.0

Shortsword|
1d6|
19-20,x2|
19-20,+10|
4.5|
1.0

1 handed weak crits

Heavy Mace|
1d8|
20,x2|
20,+10|
5.0|
0.5

*|
?|
20,x2|
20,+10|
?|
0.5
*|
?|
20,x2|
19-20,+5|
?|
0.5

2 handed martial

Falchion|
2d4|
18-20,x2|
17-20,+20|
9.0|
4.0

Greatsword|
2d6|
19-20,x2|
18-20,+15|
9.25|
2.25

Greataxe|
1d12|
20-20,x3|
19-20,+25|
9.0|
2.5

Scythe|
2d4|
20-20,x4|
19-20,+40|
9.0|
4.0

2 handed weak crits[br]and other 2H weapons

Greatclub|
1d10|
20,x2|
19-20,+10|
6.5|
1.0

*|
?|
20,x2|
20,+20|
?|
1.0

*|
?|
20,x2|
19-20,+10|
?|
1.0

*|
?|
19-20,x2|
18-20,+13|
?|
1.95[/table]

Note: in the above table, I boosted the Greataxe a bit, so it competes better with the Greatsword.

[belboz]

Wow...that really makes crits awesome.

Scythe: 2d4+20 [avg 25] rather than 4d4 [avg 10].

Suddenly, scythe are actually useful! Only if they crit, of course, but still!

One thing to note about this, although I like the idea of nerfing crit a bit at very high levels:

This *dramatically* changes low-level play, particularly with things like the scythe. A crit with a scythe on the new system has a 50% chance of wasting a 2nd-level fighter with Con 18 *in one blow*. With a 10% crit chance, combat with farmers has suddenly become a *lot* more dicey.

Yeah, 10 damage will kill a lot of 2nd-level characters too, but not most fighter-types or clerics, which are the ones you're most likely to see on the front line.

Maybe it would be better to have something that starts out lower and scales a bit with bonuses, just not fully (say, you only get to tack on half your crit multiplier's worth of extra bonus damage)?

[Yakk]

The Scythe was crazy to start with. The average crit with a SRD Scythe is already 20 + str bonus * 4. So a Strength 12 farmer is doing 24 damage per crit.

This does boost melee damage at low levels, and boosts melee damage of any non-damage-bonus monkey out there. Rogues will do more damage, Monks will do more damage. Raging Barbarian crit monkeys using double-scimitars will do less damage.

As a note: Keen Scimitars and Keen Longswords intersected average damage at a damage bonus of about 10 or so. Unkeen weapons around 20ish. I strongly suspect the "high crit" weapons sucked because of the ability to make keen weapons with huge damage bonus backing them (aforsaid Barbarian crit monkey, and his brother the Fighter crit monkey).

Btw, a way to make Keen less crazy:

Keen increases crit damage by X, and threat range by Y.

At X=10, Y=2, Keen does +2.5 to +4.5 damage.
At X=5, Y=1, Keen does +1 to +2 damage.
At X=10, Y=1, Keen does +1.5 to +3.5 damage.

The above damage ranges are average per hit, and depend mainly on the weapon.

Such an implementation of Keen could stack with Improved Critical without being nuts.

Another idea:
"Crit +damage from offhand weapons is halved".

This lets us tone down 2 H weapon crit damage as well (so the Scythe isn't crazy) by about 33%....

However, the Scyth still needs to do 2 more average crit damage than the 2 HS in order to make it a less gimpy weapon...

[Umarth]

I'm not clear on why we're looking at changing the crit rules. How does this make the game better than it currently is?

[belboz]

Sorry, Yakk, I'd used a miscalculation of the SRD scythe crit. You're right. But you've also doubled the threat range, of course. So the L.1 doesn't need a really lucky hit to take out a L.2 fighter in a single blow, just a moderately lucky one.

But another question: Doesn't this basically exacerbate the already big "fighters rule at low level, casters at high-level" problem? A Level 1 wizard is now going to feel even more useless compared to the rest of the party, as will a Level 20 fighter.

Bizarre though it sounds, it would help the game more (at least from a balance perspective) to make crits scale *more* with personal power than in the SRD. Might give fighters a chance at higher levels.

[Yakk]

I'm actually trying to work on the "scimitars and rapiers suck unless you are a high level crit monkey build" problem.

In effect, because of how well crits stack with high level bonus items, high-crit items suck at low levels, and are over powerful at high levels.

I like having a variety of weapons and items which are all around the same power level, with subtle differences. Currently, longswords are the best at level 1, and scimitars are the best at L 20, by a decent margin.

With +3 damage bonus, a LS hit currently does an average of 8.25. A Scimitar does 7.475. Using the Longsword is really a no brainer -- it does 10% more damage per hit.

@ +10 damage bonus, a keen LS vs Scimitar is even.

With +20 damage bonus, a keen LS hit currently an average of 29.4. A Scimitar does 30.55. 4% edge on the Scimitar/Heavy Pick/etc.

With +30 damage bonus, it is 41.4 to 43.55 -- a 5% edge on the Scimitar/Heavy Pick/etc.

+40 damage bonus, 6% edge on Scimitar/Heavy Pike/etc.

A weapon with 4 crit pips (which don't exist) that does 1d4 damage beats a LS by 7% at +20 damage, and loses by 25% at +3 damage.

...

Now there are problems.
Keen.
Change in damage scaling by characters.
Increased fatalities at L 1.

[Umarth]

Is it really a problem that weapons aren't all equal?

You mention that Long swords beat out scimitars by 10% of damage if they both have a +3 bonus. That 10% though is 1 point of damage. Are plenty of players going to be willing to give up 1 point of damage for an extra point of threat? I'd think so.

At the high levels (+40dmg) you’re again seeing a 6% difference but even then it's 2 points of damage per hit.

Are your players coming to you and saying "I'd like to take a scimitar/long sword but because of the 1-2 point difference per hit I'm going to see in damage I don't feel I can."?

I think more of the reason that you don't see a lot of fighters with scimitars and long swords is they don't typically fit the theme that fighter type characters build.

Try running a game where horse based desert combat is going to play a central role and I'll bet you see a lot more scimitars. In a game with swashbuckling or lots of "noble" duels I'll bet you those rapiers start popping up a lot. Especially if you show your players in game that those are common weapons that most NPCs are using.

I guess I'm just not that worried about a 1-2 point per hit damage difference.

[Yakk]

I included the benefits of the extra threat when I compared rapiers and longswords. The rapier, including the damage from the extra crits, does 10% less damage per attack than the longsword.

Both the Scimitar and the Rapier are balanced with the Longsword by the end-game -- keen plus massive bonus's to damage boost them to the Longsword's zone and slightly beyond.

Scimitars suck at low levels because if they didn't suck, at high levels they would be overpowered, given the crit mechanics of d20.

I actually want a raft of weapons that are all mechanically distinct yet balanced against each other.

How many flaming burst weapons do you see? How many flaming weapons? It is rather clear that flaming burst (d10 on crit) is worse than flaming (d6 on every hit).

You'll note that one of the first replies was "wow, the scythe doesn't suck!" Because the Scythe does suck compared to the Greatsword in the vast majority of situations.

I want players to be able to pick weapons for flavour without making their character worse by picking crappy weapons.

I want a "mid level crit monkey" build to work, but be balanced against the "mid level 2 hand steady damage" build, the "mid level dual-wield" build, the "mid level sword and board" build -- heck, I want more builds than that to work!

I want a player to be able to pick what seems fun, and still end up with a character that is as good as the mechanics munchkin beside him.

A 10% damage swing from two weapons, which should be equal, is something worth fixing.

That is like adding a 1 handed feat-free weapon that does 1d8, +1 on any even roll, with a 19-20 x2 crit. Less than 10% extra damage, but I bet many characters would pick it over a longsword...

Just because someone is mathematically incapable of figuring out that a scimitar or rapier sucks, I don't want to punish them by giving them 10% less damage per attack than someone who wants to use a longsword.

And that is why I care about balancing weapons.

I'm gonna do another pass at this. As someone noted, rolling lots of dice is fun -- and there is no reason why crits can't have extra dice, yet still be used to balance weapons against each other. :)

[Mauril Everleaf]

personally, if you like all the dice rolling but still want to nerf crits, i would add another die to the damage (in the case of weapons that roll two dice for normal damage) or add one die of the next lowest level (in the case of weapons that roll one die for normal damage). this makes the longsword (1d8) add 1-6 damage on a crit, while a bastard sword (2d4) add 1-4 damage. you can also add strenth bonus to each roll, on both normal die and crit die. this gives higher level characters who focus on melee (and thus add to their strength periodically) higher damage at higher levels, which seems logical, and keeps damage relatively low for those who dont do melee. you could also have some sort of improved crit feat that can up the die level on crits or add more dice. just my thoughts.

[fangthane]

Seems to me that this would adversely affect a lot of DR-based challenge ratings too. A critter with (for example) DR of 10/- is already disproportionately strong against melee and weak against casters, and this only skews that balance more. In terms of the way it modifies peak damage output per hit, it definitely punishes high level melee-centric characters unduly in any situation where DR comes into play. It also devalues the bard's Inspire Courage ability and other damage-boosting buffs, as well as devaluing the items and feats which grant damage increases.

Is that a critical thing in your campaign? If not, then no worries. If you'd rather not have to consider the balance of every feat in the fighter bonus set though, and every ability or class feature which grants damage multiplied in a crit, you may want to address the way your changes modify their benefit. At the very least, you'll want to make sure that such balance shifts are made clear to your players so they don't complain partway through.

Edit - Rapiers suck? Whoa, that's a new one. Tell that to my bard with the 18 dex and the 12 strength. And Weapon Finesse, of course. Anything which can be used with Finesse is a special case and its damage is inferior specifically because of its greater versatility. Granted, it sucks for a fighter with a good strength score, but don't make the mistake of thinking that adding together averages with weighted crit averages tells the whole story with those weapons. It works for 2-hander vs 2-hander, 1-hander vs 1-hander and finesse weapon vs finesse weapon, but you can no more compare a rapier to a longsword than you can a longsword to a longbow. Or a greatsword to a longsword (unless AC is also in the discussion). They're intended for different purposes and situations, and any comparison is bound to be unfair. As for rapiers, my current bard loves them. I've had characters with a better strength who never gave them a second thought.

[Yakk]

Scimitar is nearly identical to a Rapier, except it isn't a finess weapon.

So replace "Rapier sucks" with "Scimitar sucks". The Scimitar sucks at low levels because you can synergize it at high levels to damage slightly above a long sword.

Scimitar does about 10% less damage at L 1 per attack.
Scimitar does about 5% more damage per attack at L 10 to 20.

I want multiple interesting weapons that are different yet balanced, at both low and high level. I'm aware that many people don't care about having different weapons to be balanced, or consider "10% worse" to not really matter.

[magic8BALL]

I dont like this system at all.

It's heart is in the right place: getting hit in the neck hurts heaps, and so a bonus to damage seems appropriate.

But if a weapon deals variable damage, so to should bonus for a weapon hurting more if it is swung by the same person.

A bastardsword swung by a 5th level hobgoblin fighter NPC deals 1d10+5 damage, or 2d10+10 on a crit. under your system, It would deal 1d10+16. On average, this is the same.

But as soon as my level 21 character with a Large Goliath Great Hammer is reduced from 12d6+128 (ignoring Overwhelming Critical, sneak attack, Power Attack, and either of the two Smite options available) to a meager 3d6+72, I feel like a dirty big weapon that is designed to hit stuff hard is under powered.

[Yakk]

I dont like this system at all.

It's heart is in the right place: getting hit in the neck hurts heaps, and so a bonus to damage seems appropriate.

But if a weapon deals variable damage, so to should bonus for a weapon hurting more if it is swung by the same person.

I am trying to avoid "crits are a method of delivering bonus damage". If crits are a method of channeling bonus damage into instant death, then high-crit weapons suck if you don't have the huge bonus damage to deliver, or high-crit weapons are overly powerful when you do have the huge bonus damage to deliver.

As it stands, d20 makes high-crit-range weapons suck without the damage bonus delivery.

I find this to be a larger problem than what happens at L 20. If you want L 20 melee to do more damage, it is mechanically easy.


A bastardsword swung by a 5th level hobgoblin fighter NPC deals 1d10+5 damage, or 2d10+10 on a crit. under your system, It would deal 1d10+16. On average, this is the same.

But as soon as my level 21 character with a Large Goliath Great Hammer is reduced from 12d6+128 (ignoring Overwhelming Critical, sneak attack, Power Attack, and either of the two Smite options available) to a meager 3d6+72, I feel like a dirty big weapon that is designed to hit stuff hard is under powered.

I'm less worried about L 21 characters with Large Goliath Great Hammers than you are? If you know the rules well enough to design and build a character around delivering massive critical damage, you will be able to work with a change.

Next, note the large increase in many threat ranges. Smaller crits that are more frequent are not that horrid of a thing.

It isn't hard for a DM to toss in "ultra-keen" enchantments that up critical damage at the high end. In existing d20, having two keen-type effects stacking results in horrid balance problems, simply because the real use of crits is to take your damage bonus and deliver it.

Under the above system, a DM could allow you to multiply crit damage by 3 using appropriate (high-end) enchantments and feats.

So your 3d6+32 weapon:
Old: 12d6+128
New, no super-keen: 3d6+72
New, super-keen (x3): 3d6+152

Hey look -- 7.5 average damage difference. And all I needed to do was change the keen/imp. crit description as follows:
Enchantments:
Keen 1: +1 enchantment. Increase crit damage by 50%. Stacks with feats.
Keen 2: +2 enchantment. Increase crit damage by 100%. Stacks with feats, but not other enchantments.

Feats:
Imp. Crit: Increase crit damage 50%.
Imp. Crit 2: Increase crit damage by another 50% on top of Imp. Crit 1.

Heck, you can create a truely balanced keen effect that takes crit range and weapon size into effect, so it doesn't snowball the "high crit range" weapons into the land of grossness.

[fangthane]

Here's a thought which might help some with the sense of "I'm a lot tougher than that guy, but our crits are only 4 points different" this could bring in...

Leave the constant crits more or less as is, but generate a "base critical" number for a given weapon/bonus situation, such that the "base crit" is equal to 5 (or 8, or other values as you've determined) plus a value based on their total damage bonus. Add half their normal bonus, excluding all strength, then add just half their strength, and you have a number which will typically be a bit higher for a crit-monkey type build, but not to the extent it currently is. You'll also give back a bit of damage to the pure-melee builds who get nerfed with such a change, and hopefully avoid skewing melee-vs-magic balance too far out of whack. Alternatively, allow full enhancement bonus and half (or full) strength and no other modifiers on the additional critical damage dealt, or whatever meets what you want to see. In any case though, do be aware of the way that significant modification of peak damage can affect encounters with damage-resistant foes. Generally I'm not that worried about crit-builds or balance though; my current PC group is a half-ogre bard (only charged him a +1 per SS, not +2 as in RoD because frankly it's not worth a +2), a cleric with a bastard sword, a wizard and their pal the spiked-chain wielding fighter. I encourage oddball builds. ;)

[magic8BALL]

...so now you want to stack keen effects... and somehow make keen effects deal extra bonus damage instead of increase the chance of this bonus damage...

Anyway... the whole point of a critical hit is that itr is critical. If you are critically hit, your suposed to die, thats the point. Coupe de Grace is an automatic crit, just with a fort save attacked incase the thing dosnt die!

...I don't see what the problem is with the sysetm as is. Of cause, I only know D&D rules, and you keep refering to d20 in general, so in other d20 based games there may be a problem. But in D&D, if your hit with a weapon, its more about the wielder of the weapon than the weapon itself when it comes to damage: how hard it's swung/thrusted at your vitals is more important than what it is.