Reincarnate - What stays, what goes?

[Gwazi Magnum]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reincarnate

I'm a bit confused on what exactly stays and goes as a result of this spell.

I figured the following so far:
Note: I'll update this list for others reference as people list things effected or not.

Old Race
+ Mental Ability Score Changes (Includes Age Modifiers)
- Physical Ability Score Changes (Includes Age Modifiers)
- Size
+ Any bonus feats or skills from the old race (In other words, all of the humans benefits stick around :smallbiggrin:)
+ Languages Known

New Race
- Mental Ability Score Changes
- Languages Known from sad race
+ Everything else

------------

So feel free to list anything you know is or isn't kept or taken away by certain races. But some things specifically I'm wondering about...

1. Racial Powers? Like Gnomes spells per day, Elans bonus power points.

2. Racial Proficiencies, such as Dwarfs or Elves added weapon proficiencies

3. I know I said skill bonuses stay, but this include stuff like listen/spot from elves?

[ericp65]

According to the link you supplied, class, BAB, base saves, class abilities, feats, and skill ranks from the old form are retained in the new form. Character Level or HD is reduced by 1. Racial abilities of the old form are lost; racial abilities of the new form are gained, but if the old form didn't already know the new form's native language, that language is not gained.

[Gwazi Magnum]

According to the link you supplied, class, BAB, base saves, class abilities, feats, and skill ranks from the old form are retained in the new form. Character Level or HD is reduced by 1. Racial abilities of the old form are lost; racial abilities of the new form are gained, but if the old form didn't already know the new form's native language, that language is not gained.

Would that include a humans bonus feat and skill points though in your opinion?

[A_S]

I actually don't see any indication that you lose the racial abilities of your old race, other than its ability score adjustments. Which seems very weird. Am I missing something? Like, if you started as a gnome, would you keep your SLA's?

Regardless, "It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed" seems to indicate that you would keep your human goodies.

[Jeff the Green]

So a human who reincarnates as an elf who reincarnates as a strongheart halfling who reincarnates as an azurin who reincarnates as a badlands dwarf who reincarnates as a glacier dwarf who reincarnates as a hadozee who reincarnates as a desert half-orc who reincarnates as a frostblood half-orc who reincarnates as a hellbred who reincarnates as a muckdweller who reincarnates as a spiker who reincarnates as a silverbrow human who reincarnates as a drow gets
1 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 = 24 feats to chaos shuffle away at the cost of 17 levels, which can be mitigated with a Thought Bottle. Or use last breath for no level loss. Maximize it to get "Other" so you can reincarnate as races not on the standard list.

Chaos shuffle in between reincarnations will also get you four additional feats for each subrace of elf.

[Arael666]

Or use last breath for no level loss. Maximize it to get "Other" so you can reincarnate as races not on the standard list.

I dont see how last breath would remove the level loss. Also, I'm probably wrong but I dont think you can empower/maximize reincarnation.

[Glimbur]

I dont see how last breath would remove the level loss. Also, I'm probably wrong but I dont think you can empower/maximize reincarnation.

Last Breath is a Reincarnate with strict limits on how long you can be dead for before the spell is cast. In exchange, you don't take level loss. I think it's in Spell Compendium.

I agree that maximize reincarnate won't send you to the top of the table. If age was determined randomly, then maximize might set that to the maximum value. This could be useful for repeatedly turning venerable for the +mentals. But I think it specifies 'young adult body' without a specific age.

[Eslin]

I repeatedly abuse a command word item of last breath - kill yourself, come back, repeat until you have the form you want, so naturally I'm kind of interested in hearing everyone's conclusions. I always think of it as a sort of permanent polymorph (that keeps base ability scores) - you keep your own feats, skills etc and you get the extraordinary qualities of your new race.

If there's a druid in the party I almost always end up as a bugbear once he hits level seven :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Maximize would be a bad idea, because it's the DM that controls that "other", not you. But in any event, if that worked, then Empower would, too. What happens when you come back as a Subscript Out of Range Error?

It doesn't work, though, because the spell doesn't have a numeric effect. You don't come back as a 17 or a 43 or whatever, you come back as a human or an elf or something.

[ericp65]

There is no link between race and class, for purposes of this part of the game rules. It makes sense that a soul/spirit that reincarnates as a different race should lose all race-specific details from the old life, and gain those of the new life.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Would you guys think there could be a way to control what race you come back as?

Example: I'm working on an Erudite who was originally a Gray Elf, I ended up rolling Elf... So I don't suffer the STR penalty now but the CON still hurts.

Also, if someone does roll a certain race like Orc, Elf, Dwarf etc. Do you have to be the base class or do you think you'd be allowed to select a variant version of it?

[zilonox]

Never mind. See my next post.


Last Breath is a Reincarnate with strict limits on how long you can be dead for before the spell is cast. In exchange, you don't take level loss. I think it's in Spell Compendium.

I don't have the Spell Compendium, so it's quite possible the spell was updated, but the version of Last Breath in my copy of Complete Divine (p. 167) specifically says:


The subject loses one level when it returns to life, just as if it had lost a level to an energy-draining creature.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I don't have the Spell Compendium, so it's quite possible it was updated, but the version of Last Breath in my copy of Complete Divine (p. 167) specifically says:

But in that case couldn't that lost level be recovered through a spell?

[zilonox]

But in that case couldn't that lost level be recovered through a spell?

The very next sentence says:


This level loss cannot be repaired by any spell.

I suppose that does not preclude other methods - though I have no idea what those may be.

Again, this is coming from Complete Divine. It may very well have been changed in Spell Compendium.

EDIT: I was able to get in touch with a friend who has the Spell Compendium and I found out the spell did indeed change. Here is the relevant text as transcribed to me:


This spell functions like reincarnate (PH 270), except that the reincarnated creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of spells.

Nice!

[Lightlawbliss]

There is no link between race and class, for purposes of this part of the game rules. It makes sense that a soul/spirit that reincarnates as a different race should lose all race-specific details from the old life, and gain those of the new life.

the question isn't what makes sense, it is what RAW gives and removes.

[ericp65]

Would you guys think there could be a way to control what race you come back as?

Example: I'm working on an Erudite who was originally a Gray Elf, I ended up rolling Elf... So I don't suffer the STR penalty now but the CON still hurts.

Also, if someone does roll a certain race like Orc, Elf, Dwarf etc. Do you have to be the base class or do you think you'd be allowed to select a variant version of it?

Class-related details carry over from the old form to the new form.

[ericp65]

the question isn't what makes sense, it is what RAW gives and removes.

Granted. RAW doesn't appear to answer that part.

[TuggyNE]

Maximize would be a bad idea, because it's the DM that controls that "other", not you. But in any event, if that worked, then Empower would, too. What happens when you come back as a Subscript Out of Range Error?

A wild MissingNo appeared!


It doesn't work, though, because the spell doesn't have a numeric effect. You don't come back as a 17 or a 43 or whatever, you come back as a human or an elf or something.

Son I am disappoint. I wanted to be a MissingNo!

[Phelix-Mu]

TO, this is all awesome. Congratulations, you have graduated from "Lich makes me immortal!" to "Why be a lich? MAGIC makes me immortal!" It's a big realization.

The method rather soundly sets one's character up for a serious meeting with an arbitrarily large number of max-HD maruts that are angry that the character is softballing death-avoidance with 4th level spells. And that's just the obvious result of this kind of pretty unimaginative spell-abuse.

But alas, TO is TO, and it works on paper so blah blah blah. I can only hope druids hunt the character down across the planes for pissing all over the cycle of life-death-and-rebirth.

[Feel free to ignore me. As a druid, I'm required to warn people about the dire results of this kind of behavior.:smallwink:]

[Clistenes]

Would you guys think there could be a way to control what race you come back as?

Example: I'm working on an Erudite who was originally a Gray Elf, I ended up rolling Elf... So I don't suffer the STR penalty now but the CON still hurts.

Also, if someone does roll a certain race like Orc, Elf, Dwarf etc. Do you have to be the base class or do you think you'd be allowed to select a variant version of it?

By RAW, you can use Wish to recover your old race.

[Jeff the Green]

I dont see how last breath would remove the level loss. Also, I'm probably wrong but I dont think you can empower/maximize reincarnation.

I think it's ambiguous, but in that case you just have to reincarnate an average of 1300 times rather than 13, so you'll need last breath as an SLA.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The very next sentence says:



I suppose that does not preclude other methods - though I have no idea what those may be.

Again, this is coming from Complete Divine. It may very well have been changed in Spell Compendium.

EDIT: I was able to get in touch with a friend who has the Spell Compendium and I found out the spell did indeed change. Here is the relevant text as transcribed to me:



Nice!

You sir... have just made my day :)

[Eslin]

As stated, a command word item of last breathe should be the party's first purchase once possible. Lets everyone be a bugbear (or troglodyte or similar if you just want NA), gives everyone a bonus +3 to mental stats if you're willing to all suck physically up until that point (works best if you're starting at a reasonably high level so you can just go back to being young straight away) and if you give it to the fastest character in the party ensures no-one actually loses levels from dying.