[3.5] Need a full casting PrC for 3 levels

[Phelix-Mu]

Hello all,

I have a gishy monk thing going on, but we're going to ignore that for the moment.

The relevant details are that I have conjurer1/abjurant champ5 and a bunch of other non-caster stuff. I want to transition into Planeshifter PrC (Manual of the Planes), so I need three more levels of wizard casting, or some other way to meet the 5th level spells req for Planeshifter. I already can meet all other pre-reqs to the class (though a bonus/item creation feat would be nice, as the PrC requires Craft Wondrous Item).

So, please help me examine options for a full-casting PrC to take for 3 levels. All material that is 3.5 is fine (might be able to swing some 3.0 stuff, too), Dragon Magz are in, any setting, no homebrew, please.

As always, thanks so much for lending your assistance, Playgrounders.:smallsmile:

[yougi]

More information on your build, especially feats and (maybe) skill ranks might be very helpful. There are numerous full casting PrCs, do you maybe want to be more specific as to what you want?

[TaiLiu]

Ruathar is a easy class to enter, as long as one has the fluff requirements.

[BowStreetRunner]

Mage of the Arcane Order is a possibility. Cooperative Spell is the requirement that will be hardest to meet, as it is not a common feat. The PrC is full casting, gives access to a wide range of spells, gives a bonus metamagic feat at 2nd as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's a big build at epic levels, so I can probably jump through significant hoops to get to destination X or whatever.

Lemme try to give info while not devolving into a biog of the campaign.

Um...

monk17/conjurer1/abj.champ5/swordsage1/shadowsunninja1/crusader1

that's where it currently stands. If necessary I can probably rebuild a level or two, but the monk levels are pretty much fixed where they are (as they are part of backstory and DM probably won't allow them to be rebuilt). I'd prefer stuff that I can do now.

The concept is Int-based Monk, but at this point in the campaign I could be the worst melee build ever, and bard buffs and epic spells/mythals would buff me so hard that I could punch way above my grade level.

Anyway, the feats that I have are pretty much all spoken for, save 2-3 that I've gotten in the last few levels that aren't particularly key to the build.

Thanks again. It's a bit of a mess, really, so just chuck in any ideas that you have.

Ruathar: Shoot, I'm already an elf...but I might be able to swing the fluff. Eek. Pretty much all the elves in our setting aside from one other character and I were killed, though. Hmm.

Mage of the Arcane Order: Worth checking out.

EDIT: Mage of the Arcane Order is probably right out, as most of the native D&D universe was nuked in our campaign, and the guild itself seems pretty integral to the PrC.

[A_S]

Some ideas:

Incantatrix gets its best class feature at level 3, but it'll only work for you if you already have metamagic to use it on (preferably Persist). You'd need to have maxed Spellcraft, too.

Sacred Exorcist gets you a turning pool, which can be used to fuel whatever the hell you want. Good choices might include Death Devotion, Travel Devotion, or Divine Might.

Archmage is pretty okay in small doses, if you've got the prerequisites. Especially since you're already into epic, you can take Epic Counterspell and counter as much stuff per day as you want, then throw it back as per spell turning with Archmage's Mastery of Counterspelling feature. Cool. Tons of prereqs, though.

Ruather is already mentioned. Its class features kind of suck, but it's one of the easiest classes to enter in the game.

If you can swing the skill requirements in time, two levels of Unseen Seer get you expanded knowledge, which would let you pick up Hunter's Eye for lotsa d6 of sneak attack.

[Phelix-Mu]

Good, good. Keep 'em coming.

[BowStreetRunner]

Paragnostic Apostle (CC) and Urban Savant (Cityscape) might be worth looking at.

[Phelix-Mu]

Unseen Seer seems like a strong choice. How would the Damage Bonus class feature from Unseen Seer interact with Assassin's Stance (my current source of SA), if at all?

[A_S]

By my reading, it'd stack on top of the 2d6 from Assassin's Stance, but if you left the stance, you'd be down to 0, rather than only reducing by 2d6.

[Phelix-Mu]

By my reading, it'd stack on top of the 2d6 from Assassin's Stance, but if you left the stance, you'd be down to 0, rather than only reducing by 2d6.

Sounds fair. I'm liking the uncapped nature of that hunter's eye thing. Especially with my CL keying off of my BAB.:smallcool:

[Elric VIII]

Well, if you can fit in a 4th level, going to Wizard 5 is not terrible. Spontaneous Divination is an excellent power, especially at higher levels. Aside from Incantatrix' Metamagic Effect, Spontaneous Divination is the best "capstone" that you could get out of those few levels.

Although if you already have the Spellcraft and applicable MM feats, then Incantatrix will make you an even better gish with Persist.

[dspeyer]

Jade Phoenix Mage seems like a natural choice. The first level is no-casting, but if you drop one of the existing ToB levels it all works out.

[shendelzar]

I see you have a level of specialist wizard (Conjurer)...
How about dipping 3 levels of Master Specialist?

[Katana1515]

Fatespinner from complete arcane may be worth a look, it has a cool power at each level your interested in and the fluff around it is kinda cool. it requires 5 ranks in Gambler to enter but hey maybe you can run some in game poker tournament or something :D Fickle finger of fate is one of the only ways I can think of to force someone to reroll a d20, if your builds not very casterish overall then using your 'spin' to boost DC's might not be too appealing but at 3rd level you can add it to a whole mix of other things that could be handy in a pinch :)

[Phelix-Mu]

You've all been very helpful, and there are several good choices, it seems (as I'd suspected).

I'll try to address the issues one at a time.


Well, if you can fit in a 4th level, going to Wizard 5 is not terrible. Spontaneous Divination is an excellent power, especially at higher levels. Aside from Incantatrix' Metamagic Effect, Spontaneous Divination is the best "capstone" that you could get out of those few levels.

Although if you already have the Spellcraft and applicable MM feats, then Incantatrix will make you an even better gish with Persist.

d4 sucks (I am the dedicated tank in the party), and without some nice class features to back it up (or at least skill points), sticking with wizard is probably not going to happen. I do like spontaneous x and y, but the money slush fund-factor is so intense at this level that I have scrolls of everything I could possibly want at my fingertips.

Persistomancy, while it probably would fly, has been made mostly superfluous by the introduction of a number of mythals into the buff mix. Most spell slots now go toward utility casting or toward damage dumping (Arcane Strike or some such).


Jade Phoenix Mage seems like a natural choice. The first level is no-casting, but if you drop one of the existing ToB levels it all works out.

Swordsage is necessary for shadow sun ninja and infinite self-healing. Crusader was initially intended for JPM, but that lost level of casting is going to be one too many, considering the recently revealed event horizon of the campaign (40th).

Also a slight issue with needing to find a JPM Master when the entire D&D multiverse bit the dust several levels back.


I see you have a level of specialist wizard (Conjurer)...
How about dipping 3 levels of Master Specialist?

Good suggestion. I'd have to shuffle a couple feats, and the downside is I basically NEVER summon anything (though I could start doing so...but some summoning doesn't work depending on the universe we are it...:smallyuk:). Some of the other stuff is good, though.


Fatespinner from complete arcane may be worth a look, it has a cool power at each level your interested in and the fluff around it is kinda cool. it requires 5 ranks in Gambler to enter but hey maybe you can run some in game poker tournament or something :D Fickle finger of fate is one of the only ways I can think of to force someone to reroll a d20, if your builds not very casterish overall then using your 'spin' to boost DC's might not be too appealing but at 3rd level you can add it to a whole mix of other things that could be handy in a pinch :)

Now, that is one PrC I haven't looked at in an age. *opens book*

Nicely done, Playground.:smallwink:

[GeekGirl]

Also a slight issue with needing to find a JPM Master when the entire D&D multiverse bit the dust several levels back.

It's hard to say without knowing the details of the world ending. But you could use Emerald Immolation as a base of how some may have survived. But it sounds like it won't work for other reasons.

This may help (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861838/Sorcerer_Prestige_Classes_with_Full_Caster_Progres sion)

[Phelix-Mu]

It's hard to say without knowing the details of the world ending. But you could use Emerald Immolation as a base of how some may have survived. But it sounds like it won't work for other reasons.

This may help (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861838/Sorcerer_Prestige_Classes_with_Full_Caster_Progres sion)

The entire multiverse of D&D stuff, and probably 99% of the gods therein (including the Overgod), was laid waste by Tharizdun/Cthulu and his hordes, and it seems that only god-level magic would allow someone to have fled that multiverse to some other multiverse, and even then I'd have to contact them somehow. Not an insurmountable plot obstacle, but virtually so.

Now we are roaming through universes/multiverses based on other fantasy/scifi settings, trying to evade Tharizdun's minions while acquiring the powers we'll need to knock Mr. Elder God back into his prison, or (even less likely) actually destroy it.

Thanks for the link.

[GeekGirl]

That seems like a very interesting setting.

[Keld Denar]

Divine Oracle is pretty easy, especially if you can get the Know feat from the Frog God's Fane (its a dumb prereq). 2 levels gives you Evasion that works in armor, not a bad pickup. 3 levels don't grant a ton other than that, but it does give casting, BAB, a d6 HD, and decent saves.

[ArcturusV]

I'd suggest Metaphysical Spellshaper. 3 level PrC, full caster progression. Bonuses for Metamagic. Does require ranks in Craft (sculpting) or Craft (Weaving). Also already having at least 2 metamagic feats. So if your Gishy type there doesn't pump out Metamagics then it's not really a good deal for you.

[Menzath]

It's odd that no one mentioned this, but you could do Enlightened Fist from Complete Arcane, would help if you could sub out a few monk levels till you got Hold Ray. If you get spring attack... talk about run and gun.

[Venusaur]

I'd suggest Metaphysical Spellshaper. 3 level PrC, full caster progression. Bonuses for Metamagic. Does require ranks in Craft (sculpting) or Craft (Weaving). Also already having at least 2 metamagic feats. So if your Gishy type there doesn't pump out Metamagics then it's not really a good deal for you.

That's third party, and BoEF is probably pretty unlikely to be allowed.

[TypoNinja]

3 levels of the Arcane variant of the Demon Wrecker PrC from the Expedition to the Demon Web Pits adventure book nets you full casting, and its level 3 class ability turns half of all spell damage untyped and therefor un-resistible.

You'll also pick up a spell smite 2/day that lets you add your spellcasting stat mod to attack and damage rolls with that spell.

Pretty easy to qualify for, only feat tax is spell penetration, everything else is skillpoints and casting ability.

[Phelix-Mu]

That seems like a very interesting setting.


Divine Oracle is pretty easy, especially if you can get the Know feat from the Frog God's Fane (its a dumb prereq). 2 levels gives you Evasion that works in armor, not a bad pickup. 3 levels don't grant a ton other than that, but it does give casting, BAB, a d6 HD, and decent saves.

I'm epic level, so only the HD, skill points, casting, and class features are relevant. Already got Imp/Evasion, and I never where armour. Otherwise not a bad suggestion. A friend of mine once played a very interesting sorcerer/oracle concept devoted to Wee Jas in one of my campaigns. Hehe, at least before being rebuilt into wilder, which was before he'd been psychically destroyed and rebuilt into a soulknife/corrupt avenger, which was before he discovered that he'd actually been mindraped by a succubus npc, and his whole backstory was just an elaborate lie. Good times.


I'd suggest Metaphysical Spellshaper. 3 level PrC, full caster progression. Bonuses for Metamagic. Does require ranks in Craft (sculpting) or Craft (Weaving). Also already having at least 2 metamagic feats. So if your Gishy type there doesn't pump out Metamagics then it's not really a good deal for you.

Might check it out, as I've never heard of it. But metamagic is pretty much not my thing, as 95% of my combat time is racing around at 220' and full attacking all over. Everyone else in the party aside from the druid's animal companion is full caster, so I'm pretty much front-line tanking.


It's odd that no one mentioned this, but you could do Enlightened Fist from Complete Arcane, would help if you could sub out a few monk levels till you got Hold Ray. If you get spring attack... talk about run and gun.

See the note about tanking. I do run around a fair bit, but usually while scouting. I deal such a pathetically, sickeningly large amount of damage on a full attack (grtr mighty wallop, bard buffs, wraithstrike...it's a lot), that most mook battles are little more than footnotes. My buffed AC is over 90, touch is around 60, and I have a rod that has a silver wyrm dragon in it if I need more muscle (or more spells). Really, effectiveness in most combats is pretty darn high, as only plot-related BBEG really are a noteworthy challenge. But the plot-related stuff regularly nearly kills at least one or two of us.

Anyway, I have effective monk level of over 20, and there isn't much benefit to monk levels over 20. Because of the order I took classes in, it would be a serious rebuild to move the monk levels or Abjurant Champ. levels around, and I'd rather not lose more BAB (only levels before 20 count toward BAB).

[Phelix-Mu]

3 levels of the Arcane variant of the Demon Wrecker PrC from the Expedition to the Demon Web Pits adventure book nets you full casting, and its level 3 class ability turns half of all spell damage untyped and therefor un-resistible.

You'll also pick up a spell smite 2/day that lets you add your spellcasting stat mod to attack and damage rolls with that spell.

Pretty easy to qualify for, only feat tax is spell penetration, everything else is skillpoints and casting ability.

I do like that PrC, but I almost never cast damaging spells. My UAS is massively more effective with buffs, and I can't afford to stand back, as many of the enemies definitely demand a dedicated tank to keep them from tearing the DWK sorcerer or jaebrin bard apart.

That spell smite is nice, though.

[TypoNinja]

I do like that PrC, but I almost never cast damaging spells. My UAS is massively more effective with buffs, and I can't afford to stand back, as many of the enemies definitely demand a dedicated tank to keep them from tearing the DWK sorcerer or jaebrin bard apart.

That spell smite is nice, though.

Not throwing touch spells into your UAS routine? A quickened casting (feat, or item) and you get some extra damage. Or is your swift action already spoken for?

Though honestly if you are hitting stuff, the divine version is better. I take it on practically every cleric I play. My weapons are cold iron and good, because, screw demons, that's why! With the capstone of "I hate demons so much, now my allies weapons are all cold iron and good too just for standing near me!"

[Phelix-Mu]

Not throwing touch spells into your UAS routine? A quickened casting (feat, or item) and you get some extra damage. Or is your swift action already spoken for?

Though honestly if you are hitting stuff, the divine version is better. I take it on practically every cleric I play. My weapons are cold iron and good, because, screw demons, that's why! With the capstone of "I hate demons so much, now my allies weapons are all cold iron and good too just for standing near me!"

Hmm, well, I'll look at it. Many of my swift actions have been spoken for in the past (wraithstrike was necessary a very large amount of the time), but a mythal just recently freed up a bunch of them. But now I use many for maneuvers/swift teleport shadow hand and such. And I may pick up that hunter's eye trick, though many bosses have been immune (though not all:smallwink:).

In any case, the DM has moved many of our enemies out of the normally encountered types to custom stuff that isn't going trigger off of much besides...maybe some Aberrations. There were some demons early on, but they were fairly weak (balor and pit fiends played with low-op tactics), and my monk curbstomped them (abrupt jaunt+Sun School for the win...now I have Snap Kick too). In any case, they usually were wielding guns (DOOM-style enemies were common in Tharizdun's ranks), so my allies were waaaaay back in the back row. All my attacks are transmuting, now, so I ignore DR after the first hit. Remember, epic level and at least I've used pretty much every trick that I know of.

Quickened spells might not be a terrible idea, but I'd probably just grab a metamagic rod for it. I used to use vampiric touch, but then I picked up ShadowSun Ninja 1st, and that just seems more effective when I kick for 16d8.

Any other spells you might suggest quickening on my UAS?

[TypoNinja]

Hmm, well, I'll look at it. Many of my swift actions have been spoken for in the past (wraithstrike was necessary a very large amount of the time), but a mythal just recently freed up a bunch of them. But now I use many for maneuvers/swift teleport shadow hand and such. And I may pick up that hunter's eye trick, though many bosses have been immune (though not all:smallwink:).

In any case, the DM has moved many of our enemies out of the normally encountered types to custom stuff that isn't going trigger off of much besides...maybe some Aberrations. There were some demons early on, but they were fairly weak (balor and pit fiends played with low-op tactics), and my monk curbstomped them (abrupt jaunt+Sun School for the win...now I have Snap Kick too). In any case, they usually were wielding guns (DOOM-style enemies were common in Tharizdun's ranks), so my allies were waaaaay back in the back row. All my attacks are transmuting, now, so I ignore DR after the first hit. Remember, epic level and at least I've used pretty much every trick that I know of.

Quickened spells might not be a terrible idea, but I'd probably just grab a metamagic rod for it. I used to use vampiric touch, but then I picked up ShadowSun Ninja 1st, and that just seems more effective when I kick for 16d8.

Any other spells you might suggest quickening on my UAS?

I'm not as experienced with casters as melee so nothing specific jumps out at me, and frankly I'm a fan of saving my swift action for Wings of Cover, so I've not really looked too deeply into it, I just remembered it was possible.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm not as experienced with casters as melee so nothing specific jumps out at me, and frankly I'm a fan of saving my swift action for Wings of Cover, so I've not really looked too deeply into it, I just remembered it was possible.

Right, which reminds me that I do use Abrupt Jaunt regularly for a jump to safety, or during a round where I need to squeeze out that last bit of damage with Sun School.

Snap Kick really is pretty demented. If the DM I played with was more of a stickler for the combat rules, or used much melee in general in this campaign (amazing how guns make melee almost superfluous), then I'd be getting much more synergy off of it. Am I right in thinking that AoOs trigger Snap Kick? Was there ever clarification of this? (It's ToB, so that's pretty unlikely, but I thought it worth asking.) I can get almost as many UAS in a round where I jump around with Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride and use a standard action maneuver as I can in a normal full attack.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

[TypoNinja]

Right, which reminds me that I do use Abrupt Jaunt regularly for a jump to safety, or during a round where I need to squeeze out that last bit of damage with Sun School.

Snap Kick really is pretty demented. If the DM I played with was more of a stickler for the combat rules, or used much melee in general in this campaign (amazing how guns make melee almost superfluous), then I'd be getting much more synergy off of it. Am I right in thinking that AoOs trigger Snap Kick? Was there ever clarification of this? (It's ToB, so that's pretty unlikely, but I thought it worth asking.) I can get almost as many UAS in a round where I jump around with Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride and use a standard action maneuver as I can in a normal full attack.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

Don't see why Snap Kick wouldn't trigger, it says when you make a melee attack, AoO is definitely a melee attack.

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't see why Snap Kick wouldn't trigger, it says when you make a melee attack, AoO is definitely a melee attack.

Which means I probably won't retrain Robilar's Gambit after all. Really wish the DM would have us fight more small threats and less plot-related stuff. Alas, epic levels. My martial coolness can lay waste to thousands, but we narrate right past that battle (for the sake of time and sanity) and move onto the big fish.

Anyway, this is the reason I'm switching away from melee focus. She can already do most of what combat requires from melee tanking (hit like a truck, avoid blows, soak damage/spells fairly well) and her damage and accuracy key more off of buffs and spells than any abilities she can pick up with class features. The main thing she ends up doing is going all brain trust and telling the casters how to best use their spells, what epic spells to design, how to make money in campaign where almost nothing drops treasure (thanks, Tharizdun).

So more spells of her own and more ability to recon as we travel through the Omniverse sounds like the new focus. JPM would be nice (so close to 9th level maneuvers...:smallfrown: ), but Planeshifter is more pertinent to our challenges, and I already fill my party role just fine. I'm sick of having my LG monk beholden to the CN dwk sorcerer/incantatrix and the (virtually C)N half-fey elf druid for spells and such (that was half the impetus behind the wyrm rod purchase...only later did I discover that spending 1.8million for a dragon that has 17 levels of sorcerer casting is about the biggest no-brainer investment evah)..

Anyway, Unseen Seer->Planeshifter seems workable. One or two other suggestions were also tempting. More cost-benefit analysis to come, I guess. Craft Wondrous Item...hmm...I might need to search up those discount construct threads. Could use some nice constructs.:smallcool: