Character Development/Ability Score

[nmphuong91]

Elan's flaw, as in the beginning was being really stupid. As the story progress, he is getting better. I wonder if that is pure character development, or Elan has been raising his Intelligence, instead of Charisma?
This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) has shown us the easy way to redeem Belkar to Chaotic Neutral, or even Chaotic Good. Say, why not use Owl's Wisdom on Belkar when he get to raise an ability score, persuade him to raise his Wisdom. Belkar would be able to cast Ranger spell, and no more deep-seated emotional problem. Perfect Belkar!

[David Argall]

Our perfect Belkar is highly imperfect. A Belkar with a better wisdom and a better attitude towards others would be quite dull. `
Nor has Elan been getting better. From early on he was able to deal with story themes and such quite well, indeed better than more competent members of the party, while he remains hopeless when dealing with other matters.

[Kish]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) has shown us the easy way to redeem Belkar to Chaotic Neutral, or even Chaotic Good. Say, why not use Owl's Wisdom on Belkar when he get to raise an ability score, persuade him to raise his Wisdom. Belkar would be able to cast Ranger spell, and no more deep-seated emotional problem. Perfect Belkar!
No one else in the Order knows what Belkar was thinking then.

[quasit]

Fun fact: V dismissed the spell shortly after belkar healed elan. So V might have had realized that belkar was dwelling to much on it, thus cancelled owl's wisdom and belkar reverted to his usual bloodthirst at the apropiate time. "Might" being the keyword here- could be just a D&D pun about stats as well-

[Belkar<3]

I believe Owl's Wisdom is temporary, and does not affect your base ability score. So V would have to renew it several times a day. Waste of spell slots, waste of a great character.

[EmperorSarda]

Fun fact: V dismissed the spell shortly after belkar healed elan. So V might have had realized that belkar was dwelling to much on it, thus cancelled owl's wisdom and belkar reverted to his usual bloodthirst at the apropiate time. "Might" being the keyword here- could be just a D&D pun about stats as well-

Or V saw Belkar was just standing there, uncharacteristically, and dismissed it for that reason.

[nmphuong91]

As I said, just one Owl's Wisdom needed right as Belkar get level up, no need to waste spell slot to constantly keep his Wisdom, surely it would be easy to persuade him to raise Wisdom instead of Strength. As OotS get to lv 12, Belkar would have 3 Wisdom score, at that point he can be good by himself. Well, but that would totally ruin the point of having Belkar in OotS, the Giant might as well put a Chaotic Neutral Ranger with decent Wisdom right at start.
That make me wonder...what is the Giant's plan with Belkar if he clearly made to be the odd one out and without background story so far? A character development with Mr.Scruffy and go on the path of redemption? Or a combo of Heroic Sacrifice with Redemption Equal Death? Might as well as an arc of his own as Serini pull an "Belkar, I am your mother"?
About Elan, he start with getting dumped for being too stupid. And the infamous "I am invisible" as his introduction, come up next with "Bluff the stupid ogre" that make Roy worry that he won't be able to do the night watch. But I don't remember any such stupidity after Azure City battle.

[David Argall]

But I don't remember any such stupidity after Azure City battle.
There aren't too many, just 502, 505, 506, 552, 554, 557, 558, 559, 583, 590, 597, 599, 665, 675, 691, 720, 726, 727, 766, 771, 776... with most of the rest being scenes where he was absent, or not taking a leading enough roll to do anything really stupid.. I suspect the last hundred represent my getting tired rather than Elan actually getting better.
No, Elan has not really improved.

[137beth]

Our perfect Belkar is highly imperfect. A Belkar with a better wisdom and a better attitude towards others would be quite dull. `
Really? You think every character with a wisdom higher than Belkar is dull?

[EmperorSarda]

Really? You think every character with a wisdom higher than Belkar is dull?

That isn't what he said. He said a Belkar with higher wisdom would be dull, because of how Belkar acts and is. He wasn't speaking about anyone else.

[Kish]

Our perfect Belkar is highly imperfect.
The Royal We thing is inappropriate, Argall.

[NerdyKris]

Elan's flaw, as in the beginning was being really stupid. As the story progress, he is getting better. I wonder if that is pure character development, or Elan has been raising his Intelligence, instead of Charisma?
This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) has shown us the easy way to redeem Belkar to Chaotic Neutral, or even Chaotic Good. Say, why not use Owl's Wisdom on Belkar when he get to raise an ability score, persuade him to raise his Wisdom. Belkar would be able to cast Ranger spell, and no more deep-seated emotional problem. Perfect Belkar!

I don't like it. I just flat out don't like the idea of having to tie "growing up and taking responsibility for your actions" to a stat increase. In fact, this idea was lampooned in the comic with the old dirt farmer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html) Since Wisdom increases as you get older, naturally, your spot and listen checks increase in old age. Which clearly isn't true.

The stats are okay for a numerical statement of some things, but not personality. That should be based on character alone. Belkar shouldn't have become good when he gained a wisdom increase. One can be wise and evil. Look at Tarquin.

Elan is growing up because he's being forced to confront the reality of his carefree lifestyle. He's been through a war, had someone die for him, found out that 2/3rds of his immediate family are evil, and was just now forced to see how ludicrous his dreams are. That should be changing anyone's outlook, regardless of stat changes.

[137beth]

I don't like it. I just flat out don't like the idea of having to tie "growing up and taking responsibility for your actions" to a stat increase. In fact, this idea was lampooned in the comic with the old dirt farmer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html) Since Wisdom increases as you get older, naturally, your spot and listen checks increase in old age. Which clearly isn't true.

The stats are okay for a numerical statement of some things, but not personality. That should be based on character alone. Belkar shouldn't have become good when he gained a wisdom increase. One can be wise and evil. Look at Tarquin.

Elan is growing up because he's being forced to confront the reality of his carefree lifestyle. He's been through a war, had someone die for him, found out that 2/3rds of his immediate family are evil, and was just now forced to see how ludicrous his dreams are. That should be changing anyone's outlook, regardless of stat changes.
Agreed, it sounds a lot like the people saying "ooh, Elan just rolled a natural 20 on his will save against the illusion!"

The Royal We thing is inappropriate, Argall.
I always assumed that his "we" referred to himself and a friend (or even a pet) without an account on the forums...huh.

[Math_Mage]

Elan has gained one lousy ability score point since the first book. (If he wasn't level 8 by comic 1, he was definitely level 8 by comic 124 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html).)

If he put that one point into Int instead of Cha, would anyone even notice?

No, there is no evidence that character development is tied to ability score increases.

[nmphuong91]

No, there is no one said any such thing like "character development tied into ability score increase". So why you need evidence for something no one talk about?
The question is: Is it character development? Or is it ability score increase that cure his stupidity?
@Nerdy: Did you read the strip I mention on first post? One can be both wise and evil, but that one not Belkar.
@Argall: All I see in those strip is "comically inefficient", something that the entire OotS suffer, not stupidity to the point of incapable of common sense. In the story arc which he was imprisoned by Nale's scheme, he did try to get back to Azure City by disguise and stowaway on board the airship, not "turn invisible" and get on board the airship. That's the biggest example of what Elan can think of by himself. So I wonder if he has gained intelligence to cure his stupidity? Or he just gained more common sense (character development)?

[David Argall]

All I see in those strip is "comically inefficient", something that the entire OotS suffer, not stupidity to the point of incapable of common sense. In the story arc which he was imprisoned by Nale's scheme, he did try to get back to Azure City by disguise and stowaway on board the airship, not "turn invisible" and get on board the airship. That's the biggest example of what Elan can think of by himself.
Since we have no definition of "comically inefficient" vs "stupidity to the point of incapable of common sense", much less an explanation of why some cases fall into one rather than the other, this claim becomes merely an assertion, not evidence that Elan has changed. In the case cited, we note it happened before the fall of Azure City, and that the scheme failed almost immediately, which hardly makes it an shinning example of common sense. Then in the next strip, we see Elan involved in a scheme that seems to have no sense [common or not] to it.
So we continue to see no difference in Elan's behavior post- vs pre- Azure City.

[David Argall]

The Royal We thing is inappropriate, Argall.
There are many types of "we" and it is routinely a mistake to consider a particular case a royal we. A much more common form is the teacher we, as in "and so we see...".
But this is just the common collective we. Belkar gets much of his popularity from being dumb. And any increase in his mental abilities would make him a less popular character.

[Math_Mage]

No, there is no one said any such thing like "character development tied into ability score increase". So why you need evidence for something no one talk about?
The question is: Is it character development? Or is it ability score increase that cure his stupidity?
The point remains that a measly one point in Int isn't curing anything.

However, the reason I phrased my response the way I did is because any option that says it isn't character development cannot be the case. Elan's development of thoughtfulness is, objectively, character development. It's indisputable. The only relevant question is whether that character development is or is not tied to putting ability score points in Int.

Now, we have the Giant on record stating numerous times that he doesn't have character sheets, he doesn't go out of his way to invent rules explanations for narrative events, and he frankly doesn't care what you think Elan's exact Int score is. Do you really think the Giant would say that Elan's character development is dependent on juggling numbers on his (nonexistent) character sheet?

And let me repeat: One. Ability score. Point. One.

[137beth]

There are many types of "we" and it is routinely a mistake to consider a particular case a royal we. A much more common form is the teacher we, as in "and so we see...".
But this is just the common collective we. Belkar gets much of his popularity from being dumb. And any increase in his mental abilities would make him a less popular character.
Yea, what you call the teacher we is what I use in my math papers...

On the other hand,

So we continue to see no difference in Elan's behavior post- vs pre- Azure City.
Is referring entirely to your own personal opinion, and is hence a royal we.

Are you just opposed to the idea that any character development could have possibly happened inside the illusion?

[Math_Mage]

Since we have no definition of "comically inefficient" vs "stupidity to the point of incapable of common sense", much less an explanation of why some cases fall into one rather than the other, this claim becomes merely an assertion, not evidence that Elan has changed. In the case cited, we note it happened before the fall of Azure City, and that the scheme failed almost immediately, which hardly makes it an shinning example of common sense. Then in the next strip, we see Elan involved in a scheme that seems to have no sense [common or not] to it.
So we continue to see no difference in Elan's behavior post- vs pre- Azure City.

*ahem*
Pre-Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html)
Post-Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)

While Azure City isn't exactly the cutoff I would choose--I think Elan's character growth came from the Linear Guild Round 2, Therkla, and EoB arcs--it's pretty much indisputable that Elan has become a more serious character over time. This is not to say that he no longer does stupid things for comedic effect. It's simply that he does more serious things now than before. He thinks more now than before. This is the good way to develop a comedic character as the narrative he's in becomes darker and more serious.

[pearl jam]

Yea, what you call the teacher we is what I use in my math papers...

On the other hand,

Is referring entirely to your own personal opinion, and is hence a royal we.

Are you just opposed to the idea that any character development could have possibly happened inside the illusion?

I'm not taking any sides on the main argument, but I read this "we" as referring to "we readers" with an included assumption that we are all seeing the same thing, rather than being the royal "we".

[Vinyadan]

Fun fact: V dismissed the spell shortly after belkar healed elan. So V might have had realized that belkar was dwelling to much on it, thus cancelled owl's wisdom and belkar reverted to his usual bloodthirst at the apropiate time. "Might" being the keyword here- could be just a D&D pun about stats as well-

I also always saw it this way. After all, however empirical and impregnated by superiority complex his psychological analyses may be, Vaarsuvius seemed to have a nice explanation about Belkar's kiss, and could get pretty well how he thinks. He also outsmarted Nale using psychology, and, with some help, he understood the imp's intentions.

V gets people well, as long as he can gain some advantage from it. Otherwise, he just doesn't mind (like with the poor Elan when he wanted to be a wizard and V took it as an offense, or when he seemed not to care about his wife).

[Math_Mage]

I also always saw it this way. After all, however empirical and impregnated by superiority complex his psychological analyses may be, Vaarsuvius seemed to have a nice explanation about Belkar's kiss, and could get pretty well how he thinks. He also outsmarted Nale using psychology, and, with some help, he understood the imp's intentions.

V gets people well, as long as he can gain some advantage from it. Otherwise, he just doesn't mind (like with the poor Elan when he wanted to be a wizard and V took it as an offense, or when he seemed not to care about his wife).

V habitually reduced other people to state machines. That's not the same as understanding them.

We have no idea whether or not he actually interpreted Belkar's kiss correctly. Outsmarting Nale amounted to a riddle. And having Blackwing shout explanations in his ear isn't the same as him understanding the imp's motives on his own.

[Kish]

I'm not taking any sides on the main argument, but I read this "we" as referring to "we readers" with an included assumption that we are all seeing the same thing, rather than being the royal "we".
The problem here, is the generalization of one reader's private, personal opinions to Things We Know.

[pearl jam]

The problem here, is the generalization of one reader's private, personal opinions to Things We Know.

Yes, I gathered that that was the nature of your disagreement and was merely commenting on the tangential issue of semantics.

[137beth]

V habitually reduced other people to state machines. That's not the same as understanding them.

We have no idea whether or not he actually interpreted Belkar's kiss correctly.
Agreed, but...

Outsmarting Nale amounted to a riddle.
It required understanding that Nale would be unable to avoid gloating, even if the situation required keeping silent.

And having Blackwing shout explanations in his ear isn't the same as him understanding the imp's motives on his own.
Blackwing was fooled by the qarr's claim about it "not being V's fault"...V wasn't.

[NerdyKris]

No, there is no one said any such thing like "character development tied into ability score increase". So why you need evidence for something no one talk about?
@Nerdy: Did you read the strip I mention on first post? One can be both wise and evil, but that one not Belkar.

You said in the opening post:


I wonder if that is pure character development, or Elan has been raising his Intelligence, instead of Charisma?

That is "character development tied into ability score increase". You were talking about it. In the opening post. Elan is making more mature choices because he's being forced to grow up. A full year was spent where he was the high level PC in command. I feel that trying to tie it into a "he put points in intelligence" increase cheapens the massive amount of life changing events he's been through in the past year.


@Nerdy: Did you read the strip I mention on first post? One can be both wise and evil, but that one not Belkar.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I was saying that I don't like that strip. It was early on and I feel it cheapened the characters. I'd rather just sweep it under the rug. Belkar's personality shouldn't have changed.

[David Argall]

*ahem*
Pre-Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html)
Post-Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)

While Azure City isn't exactly the cutoff I would choose--I think Elan's character growth came from the Linear Guild Round 2, Therkla, and EoB arcs--it's pretty much indisputable that Elan has become a more serious character over time. This is not to say that he no longer does stupid things for comedic effect. It's simply that he does more serious things now than before. He thinks more now than before. This is the good way to develop a comedic character as the narrative he's in becomes darker and more serious.
This is entirely disputable. Back when Elan joins the party [at which time there really isn't a party yet] in On the Origin of PCs. he quickly gives Roy advice that works. In our current strip, Elan is being stopped from disbelieving illusion on reality. He has always been well able to deal with certain aspects of "reality", but not with reality in general. Any improvement has been at most statistical. There seem no good reason to even think that has happened.

[David Argall]

The problem here, is the generalization of one reader's private, personal opinions to Things We Know.
What private, personal opinion? Elan has been a fool from start to finish, but he is surprisingly effective at certain times under certain conditions. This too he has been for a long time. Where is the actual evidence that he has changed?

[veti]

Blackwing was fooled by the qarr's claim about it "not being V's fault"...V wasn't.

V still takes it for granted that she's smarter than her own familiar, so when her reasoning (as opposed to her emotion) conflicts with his, she must be right.

Doesn't necessarily mean she is right, though.

[Kish]

V still takes it for granted that she's smarter than her own familiar, so when her reasoning (as opposed to her emotion) conflicts with his, she must be right.

Doesn't necessarily mean she is right, though.
So you contend that Qarr came to directly contradict what the IFCC already stated, privately, while gloating to Qarr, to be the case...

...because he decided he liked Vaarsuvius and wanted him/her to stop feeling bad?

[AstralFire]

It's reductionist to say that Elan only got character growth because he put a point in Int.
It is not reductionist to say that Elan got character growth and decided to put a point in Int because he felt it would help him more - and then it actually did.

I think the latter is what we're discussing.

It is reductionist to say that Elan only broke everyone out of the illusion because he rolled high.
It is not reductionist to say that Elan broke everyone out of the illusion because his character growth allowed him to seize on an opportunity at the right time, as represented by a high result. (Assuming the spell mechanic allowed a roll, that's a separate issue.)

One is being a slave to the mechanics, the other is working within them.

[David Argall]

It is not reductionist to say that Elan broke everyone out of the illusion because his character growth allowed him to seize on an opportunity at the right time, as represented by a high result.
No character growth is needed here. Rather he applied a theme, just as he did back when he met Roy.

[137beth]

No character growth is needed here. Rather he applied a theme, just as he did back when he met Roy.

Realizing that your life long dreams will never happen? No, totally doesn't involve character growth.

[AstralFire]

No character growth is needed here. Rather he applied a theme, just as he did back when he met Roy.

False dichotomy. Elan applies themes; that is the overarching framework through which he analyzes everything. His recognition that a different theme is appropriate than the one he had been using is character growth.

We all think in themes sometimes, just less blatantly than Elan. The first time someone realizes their own wrongdoing rather than blaming others? They are still applying a right/wrong theme, but they are now correctly applying it. When someone reconciles the end of a relationship with the words, "it wasn't meant to be?" They are still thinking in terms of fate, but they are now correctly applying it.

It would still be considered character growth every time in the real world.

[David Argall]

False dichotomy. Elan applies themes; that is the overarching framework through which he analyzes everything. His recognition that a different theme is appropriate than the one he had been using is character growth.

We all think in themes sometimes, just less blatantly than Elan. The first time someone realizes their own wrongdoing rather than blaming others? They are still applying a right/wrong theme, but they are now correctly applying it. When someone reconciles the end of a relationship with the words, "it wasn't meant to be?" They are still thinking in terms of fate, but they are now correctly applying it.

It would still be considered character growth every time in the real world.
But there is no change, and thus no growth here. He functioned in themes, and he still functions in themes. And the party sometimes did and sometimes did not correctly apply it in both the old days and now.

[137beth]

But there is no change, and thus no growth here. He functioned in themes, and he still functions in themes. And the party sometimes did and sometimes did not correctly apply it in both the old days and now.

First he hopes/wants/expects his parents to remarry, then he realizes that this childish fantasy is impossible. So obviously, those two thoughts are the same, right?

[AstralFire]

Mr. Argall, it sounds like you're making the argument that Character Development can only occur if someone makes a fundamental shift of their entire worldview, which would be an untenable position. Most character development is by steps both small and large, not by leaps and bounds.

[David Argall]

First he hopes/wants/expects his parents to remarry, then he realizes that this childish fantasy is impossible. So obviously, those two thoughts are the same, right?
If we had a different writer, this would be foreshadowing, and the two would end up re-marrying. But a goal that he put no effort into achieving before is now abandoned, which we only have a brief statement of, this is supposed to be character development?



it sounds like you're making the argument that Character Development can only occur if someone makes a fundamental shift of their entire worldview, which would be an untenable position. Most character development is by steps both small and large, not by leaps and bounds.
Any time "character development" is by steps, one is entitled to ask if it is happening at all, especially around here, where posters talk routinely about major changes, based on even the slightest evidence. Given the willingness of the author to whipsaw the story, that tendency is not completely unjustified, but it does make for a lot of jumping at shadows, and seeing "character development" where there is none.
We have had 900 pages for Elan [or Belker, or ...] to develop and we are looking at tiny changes at most. Just about any action of the early days could happen now, or a reaction to an event could have happen to the same sort of event way back then. Elan was and is a fool, and he was and is able to recognize story elements that are amazing insights. The change is merely in the drawing.

[Carry2]

Mr. Argall, it sounds like you're making the argument that Character Development can only occur if someone makes a fundamental shift of their entire worldview, which would be an untenable position. Most character development is by steps both small and large, not by leaps and bounds.
Well, yes. But in principle enough small changes will eventually add up to a fundamental shift in their entire worldview. It's kind of setting a high bar on a largely arbitrary threshold, but in theory you could use that definition.

Unless Argall is arguing that the fundamental shift has to occur all at once in order to happen at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog). Which would be nuts.

[NCoffin]

We have had 900 pages for Elan [or Belker, or ...] to develop and we are looking at tiny changes at most.

I disagree strongly. I think Elan has grown considerably as a person through many of the plot arcs in the comic. The Elan/Nale switch arc, leading to him becoming a more effective member of the group as a Dashing Swordsman is one. Encountering his father and realizing a showdown of some sort will be necessary in the future is another. Breaking out of the illusion based on acknowledging the unlikelihood of the fantasy is something that I argue the Elan of the first hundred strips would never have been able to do.

[hamishspence]

Realizing that "bardic tradition" might stand in the way of a happy ending for him & Haley, and choosing to disregard it:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

might be another example.

[veti]

So you contend that Qarr came to directly contradict what the IFCC already stated, privately, while gloating to Qarr, to be the case...

...because he decided he liked Vaarsuvius and wanted him/her to stop feeling bad?

No, I'm saying that V's analysis is V's analysis, and may not be correct. You'll agree, I think, that it's possible for V to make errors in reasoning?

That's all.

[Kish]

If you wish to say that Vaarsuvius is wrong about the single conclusion "I am responsible for the mass murder I committed while spliced," I am no more likely to agree to that than I am to agree that fire doesn't burn. If you wish to say that you're totally not addressing anything but you wish to assert that it's possible for Vaarsuvius to be wrong, in the abstract...I make a point of not co-signing free-standing non-sequitur assertions.

[Sunken Valley]

Breaking out of the illusion based on acknowledging the unlikelihood of the fantasy is something that I argue the Elan of the first hundred strips would never have been able to do.

That's for a very simple reason. He has Shoes now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) Belkar couldn't do it. He doesn't have shoes.

[David Argall]

I disagree strongly. I think Elan has grown considerably as a person through many of the plot arcs in the comic. The Elan/Nale switch arc, leading to him becoming a more effective member of the group as a Dashing Swordsman is one. Encountering his father and realizing a showdown of some sort will be necessary in the future is another. Breaking out of the illusion based on acknowledging the unlikelihood of the fantasy is something that I argue the Elan of the first hundred strips would never have been able to do.
On the contrary, it is precisely the sort of thing Elan would have done from the start. He is the one who knows these story conventions. We could do this illusion in Dungeon Crawling Fools very easily.
As I have noted before, On the Origin of PCs gives us the meeting of Roy and Elan. Elan immediately tells Roy how to recruit an adventuring party, advice that worked. So from the moment Elan joins the party, he is able to do things of very high efficiency, along with actions of much foolishness. Our last look at him is his getting a weird idea.
Now since the Nale/Elan switch Elan has had a more central role in the plot. This gives us more focus on his problems and their solutions, and this can create an illusion of character growth even as he continues to act in the same way. But there is really nothing of Elan that could not have happened early or late.

[Bird]

V habitually reduced other people to state machines. That's not the same as understanding them.

We have no idea whether or not he actually interpreted Belkar's kiss correctly. Outsmarting Nale amounted to a riddle. And having Blackwing shout explanations in his ear isn't the same as him understanding the imp's motives on his own.

There's good reason to say that V misinterpreted Belkar's kiss. As you say, reducing someone to a state machine isn't likely to produce a nuanced understanding. And we *know* that Belkar is capable of reactions other that hate or lust, which was the key to V's analysis. Even before his ("fake") character development with Mr. Scruffy, Belkar liked, but did not lust, for Shojo. He also didn't really hate (for instance) Durkon, despite enjoying teasing him.

[EmperorSarda]

On the contrary, it is precisely the sort of thing Elan would have done from the start. He is the one who knows these story conventions. We could do this illusion in Dungeon Crawling Fools very easily.
As I have noted before, On the Origin of PCs gives us the meeting of Roy and Elan. Elan immediately tells Roy how to recruit an adventuring party, advice that worked. So from the moment Elan joins the party, he is able to do things of very high efficiency, along with actions of much foolishness. Our last look at him is his getting a weird idea.
Now since the Nale/Elan switch Elan has had a more central role in the plot. This gives us more focus on his problems and their solutions, and this can create an illusion of character growth even as he continues to act in the same way. But there is really nothing of Elan that could not have happened early or late.
Except Elan hadn't met his father. Meeting his Father, seeing that he is Evil helped play a part in that.

I dunno, to say that one must act completely different once they experience some character growth seems unrealistic to me.

[pearl jam]

On the contrary, it is precisely the sort of thing Elan would have done from the start. He is the one who knows these story conventions. We could do this illusion in Dungeon Crawling Fools very easily.
As I have noted before, On the Origin of PCs gives us the meeting of Roy and Elan. Elan immediately tells Roy how to recruit an adventuring party, advice that worked. So from the moment Elan joins the party, he is able to do things of very high efficiency, along with actions of much foolishness. Our last look at him is his getting a weird idea.
Now since the Nale/Elan switch Elan has had a more central role in the plot. This gives us more focus on his problems and their solutions, and this can create an illusion of character growth even as he continues to act in the same way. But there is really nothing of Elan that could not have happened early or late.

Except that, aside from the joke at the end about foreshadowing, Elan's revelation was not based on storytelling conventions, genre savvy, Bardic lore, or fourth-wall-breaking meta-knowlege at all. It was based primarily on his understanding of his family members and their motivations, which lead him to recognize the ways in which they were acting out of character, as people, not Out Of Character as players in a game. From here he then recognized how prior events had also been playing to his own dreams and motivations as well as those of his fellow members of the OOTS. Elan of the Dungeon of Durokan may well have been able to see through illusions based on storytelling conventions that could have applied to any stereotypical party or storytelling, but I find it difficult to believe that the Elan of that time had the personal self-knowledge of himself and his party to see through an illusion based on their own specific motivations, rather than generic genre stereotypes.

[David Argall]

I dunno, to say that one must act completely different once they experience some character growth seems unrealistic to me.
But we have not seen Elan act differently at all. He did foolish things and things that turned out to be clever before. Now he is doing foolish things and things that turn out to be clever.


Except that, aside from the joke at the end about foreshadowing, Elan's revelation was not based on storytelling conventions, genre savvy, Bardic lore, or fourth-wall-breaking meta-knowlege at all. It was based primarily on his understanding of his family members and their motivations, which lead him to recognize the ways in which they were acting out of character, as people, not Out Of Character as players in a game.
Same difference from Elan's view. Either way they were out of character, and the story convention is to react dramatically. Consider if you were in Elan's place and and brother said he wasn't up to anything. You would think he has finally reformed or that he has some especially deep plot and you need to stay on your toes. You would not stop the ceremony and insist it is all a dream, and you would expect to be hauled off to the nut hatch if you did.
People are in fact very reluctant to give up their dreams and need overwhelming evidence, and time, to do so. Elan is acting in a very story way, a very Elan way.



From here he then recognized how prior events had also been playing to his own dreams and motivations as well as those of his fellow members of the OOTS. Elan of the Dungeon of Durokan may well have been able to see through illusions based on storytelling conventions that could have applied to any stereotypical party or storytelling, but I find it difficult to believe that the Elan of that time had the personal self-knowledge of himself and his party to see through an illusion based on their own specific motivations, rather than generic genre stereotypes.
Now putting this illusion back in the Dungeon would have required some foreshadowing like that that was done over the next 7-800 pages. At page 100 we are the one who lacks knowledge that Elan wants his parents to remarry. Elan already knew just about all the information he had in 888. That his father was a nasty warlord who did not get on well with his mother... This he had 20 years to learn from Ma. And he would have known from her about the lack of desire to remarry. There is little in the way of new knowledge here. So we could do something like put in Elan suggesting to Nale that they try a parent switch in order to get them remarried with Nale merely saying he has not seen dad in years etc. And the illusion fits into the early part of the text. Probably not as well, but that is because the scene benefits from the setup, not because Elan has changed.

[pearl jam]

You would not stop the ceremony and insist it is all a dream, and you would expect to be hauled off to the nut hatch if you did.

Well, yes, but we don't live in a world where magic is an accepted fact of reality.



People are in fact very reluctant to give up their dreams and need overwhelming evidence, and time, to do so. Elan is acting in a very story way, a very Elan way.

I'm pretty sure the point of showing having the illusion span 6 and a half or so comic pages was to supply the little bits of evidence that eventually piled up until a particular piece of evidence, in this case Nale's behavior, was the proverbial pebble that started to avalanche of recognition of all the prior clues. We can argue whether 6+ comic pages was too much or too little, but they had evidence and time to recognize it.



Now putting this illusion back in the Dungeon would have required some foreshadowing like that that was done over the next 7-800 pages.


of course.



At page 100 we are the one who lacks knowledge that Elan wants his parents to remarry. Elan already knew just about all the information he had in 888.


My memory could be wrong, but he didn't know he had a twin brother at all, did he? Let alone that he was evil.



That his father was a nasty warlord who did not get on well with his mother... This he had 20 years to learn from Ma. And he would have known from her about the lack of desire to remarry. There is little in the way of new knowledge here.

Since he was in denial that Tarquin was evil until he saw the burning slaves, it seems possible that this statement assumes too much. Not all parents speak ill of their former spouses to their children. Perhaps Elan's mother simply said she and his father could no longer get along.



So we could do something like put in Elan suggesting to Nale that they try a parent switch in order to get them remarried with Nale merely saying he has not seen dad in years etc. And the illusion fits into the early part of the text. Probably not as well, but that is because the scene benefits from the setup, not because Elan has changed.

Of course this scene benefits from the setup, and Elan's gradual change is part of that setup.

[hamishspence]

My memory could be wrong, but he didn't know he had a twin brother at all, did he? Let alone that he was evil.

He discovers Nale is his twin brother in strip 50:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

[EmperorSarda]

But we have not seen Elan act differently at all. He did foolish things and things that turned out to be clever before. Now he is doing foolish things and things that turn out to be clever.

Except he is questioning himself on what is right, because he sees how he has accidentally made things worse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html). Would the "I am on an adventure" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) Elan be questioning himself like that?


People are in fact very reluctant to give up their dreams and need overwhelming evidence, and time, to do so. Elan is acting in a very story way, a very Elan way. By recognizing that Nale is acting in a very unlike Nale way? That his mom is getting back with Tarquin for him? I dunno... it doesn't seem very Elan-like to see that his heart desires and what is reality don't jive. It's not a matter of storyteller convention, or Elan would have mentioned. It is because he has experience some growth to see what is and isn't. Some growth comparatively to the Elan who got all of Sir Francois' possessions taken at the very least.


Elan already knew just about all the information he had in 888. That his father was a nasty warlord who did not get on well with his mother... This he had 20 years to learn from Ma.
Actually, Elan doesn't know at all why his parents split up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html)

[wumpus]

The point remains that a measly one point in Int isn't curing anything.

However, the reason I phrased my response the way I did is because any option that says it isn't character development cannot be the case. Elan's development of thoughtfulness is, objectively, character development. It's indisputable. The only relevant question is whether that character development is or is not tied to putting ability score points in Int.

Now, we have the Giant on record stating numerous times that he doesn't have character sheets, he doesn't go out of his way to invent rules explanations for narrative events, and he frankly doesn't care what you think Elan's exact Int score is. Do you really think the Giant would say that Elan's character development is dependent on juggling numbers on his (nonexistent) character sheet?

And let me repeat: One. Ability score. Point. One.

While the Giant has made it clear that he has never written down the character sheets for each character those character sheets exist in the OOTS world. From what I've heard, Roy saw each of the character's sheets when he hired them on the party (and V's was visable with the gender smudged/unreadable).

Face it, character growth in OOTS happens via stat changes and whatnot. Since at least some characters (I think Haley mentioned it) have read the Player's Handbook, all the Giant can do is either ignore that line as a throwaway or claim the the OOTS Player's Handbook isn't the same as any of the ones for sale on Amazon (I suspect this is his choice and he has already subtly put it into effect as I am unaware of any rulebook that includes Dashing Swordsman). Elan could easily have some means of gaining a few more points of intelligence (or possibly had odd numbers and this removed his intelligence penalty). As far as one point goes, unless you are absolutely certain that this puts him in odd teritory (and ignoring the possiblity that he wasted his last one on intelligence back when he planned on taking a level in wizard) it isn't quite out of character. Elan just hasn't been that smart and isn't exactly being shown as smarter than Roy or Haley (I'd assume that Durkon was as dumb as Nale, just that his wisdom score helped him keep his mouth shut. Then again I tend to deal with min/maxers a lot).

[Kish]

From what I've heard, Roy saw each of the character's sheets when he hired them on the party (and V's was visable with the gender smudged/unreadable).

You've misheard. He saw the forms he asked Haley and Vaarsuvius to fill out. Not their character sheets, and not anything for Durkon, Belkar, or Elan.


Since at least some characters (I think Haley mentioned it) have read the Player's Handbook, all the Giant can do is either ignore that line as a throwaway or claim the the OOTS Player's Handbook isn't the same as any of the ones for sale on Amazon (I suspect this is his choice and he has already subtly put it into effect as I am unaware of any rulebook that includes Dashing Swordsman).

Setting aside the concept of house rules...

...why are these Rich's only two choices, again?


(I'd assume that Durkon was as dumb as Nale, just that his wisdom score helped him keep his mouth shut.
What? Why?

Then again I tend to deal with min/maxers a lot).
Is "because clerics don't mechanically use Intelligence" the answer to the question I just asked, then?

[AstralFire]

Dashing Swordsman is explicitly mentioned as a supplemental book, FYI.

General rule: Knowledge of 3.5 is a good way to make predictions and educated guesses about the strip, but there are no actual rules.

[NCoffin]

@David Argall

EmperorSarda's post reminded me of another instance of character growth by Elan: the Therkla arc. I don't see how anyone could justifiably claim that the experience did not affect Elan's way of thinking.

Additionally, I'm not convinced that Elan did know about his father in any meaningful way prior to meeting him. Certainly his mother might have told him something anbout Tarquin, but until meeting him in person I don't believe Elan really knew. There's a difference between being told someone is "a mean fighting guy", to quote his description in Strip #50, and seeing them commit clearly evil acts firsthand. Coming to the realization that a parent works against everything you believe in (Alignment-wise, at least) has to have some impact.

The exact degree to which Elan has grown as a person might be up for debate, but I don't think it's reasonable to say he hasn't changed meaningfully at all.

[hamishspence]

Dashing Swordsman is explicitly mentioned as a supplemental book, FYI.

Actually I think that in War & XPs the Giant said that the PRC was entirely made up by him, with its abilities left undefined so he could add them when he needed them to appear.

[David Argall]

Well, yes, but we don't live in a world where magic is an accepted fact of reality.
We do live in a world of con-men who can be deemed illusionists for our purposes here. You would not try to stop the ceremony where Ma/Dad is marrying this "rich" heir because somebody is acting strangely.
[Incidentally, Nale is in fact acting very Nale-like from Elan's point of view. Nale has repeatedly acted all helpful and friendly up to the moment he sprang his trap. Here we might imagine he has a plan that requires his parents be married, and then maybe killed along with Elan. Very typical Nale behavior. Elan has no grounds, beyond story convention, to suddenly go crazy. But going crazy is standard Elan behavior.]



I'm pretty sure the point of showing having the illusion span 6 and a half or so comic pages was to supply the little bits of evidence that eventually piled up until a particular piece of evidence, in this case Nale's behavior, was the proverbial pebble that started to avalanche of recognition of all the prior clues.
But again, this is story convention, in part there for the drama. The actual action is usually "no, it can't be. This can't be a lie!" The truth is accepted only slowly and reluctantly. As one author put it, "you're joking... how can you think such a terrible thing?... you had better have some good evidence... But there must be some explanation... and following with falling into sorrow, not action.



My memory could be wrong, but he didn't know he had a twin brother at all, did he? Let alone that he was evil.
Found both out around #50, well before the suggested 100 for the illusion.



Since he was in denial that Tarquin was evil until he saw the burning slaves, it seems possible that this statement assumes too much. Not all parents speak ill of their former spouses to their children. Perhaps Elan's mother simply said she and his father could no longer get along.
Again #50 tells us that he knew the essentials. And his "conversation" with "ma" would have to be based on what he remembers his mother saying.



Of course this scene benefits from the setup, and Elan's gradual change is part of that setup.
But what gradual change are we talking about? He remains over-excitable and prone to react based on the logic of the generic story.

[David Argall]

another instance of character growth by Elan: the Therkla arc. I don't see how anyone could justifiably claim that the experience did not affect Elan's way of thinking.
It hasn't. In fact, our writer seems to have gone to pains to make sure it doesn't. Elan's "confession" to Hailey is there to make Therkla essentially a closed chapter, one that can pretty much be ignored from now on. Much more character development possible if Elan doesn't mention her.
But again, where do we see Elan acting different? He remains cheerful and innocent.



Additionally, I'm not convinced that....
Which would mean you are accepting that you are probably wrong. You don't have to be convinced here, and in fact can't be even by overwhelming evidence unless you want to be. But we only need the preponderance of the evidence, not beyond the shadow of a doubt. And "not convinced" translates into "it may be true, indeed probably is, but...'



Elan did know about his father in any meaningful way prior to meeting him. Certainly his mother might have told him something anbout Tarquin, but until meeting him in person I don't believe Elan really knew. There's a difference between being told someone is "a mean fighting guy", to quote his description in Strip #50, and seeing them commit clearly evil acts firsthand. Coming to the realization that a parent works against everything you believe in (Alignment-wise, at least) has to have some impact.
It does. Elan gets right into a fight. But he is back to typical Elan behavior quite rapidly.



The exact degree to which Elan has grown as a person might be up for debate, but I don't think it's reasonable to say he hasn't changed meaningfully at all.
In what way? As far as I can tell, it amounts to changing his clothes.

[EmperorSarda]

[Incidentally, Nale is in fact acting very Nale-like from Elan's point of view. Nale has repeatedly acted all helpful and friendly up to the moment he sprang his trap.
Repeatedly? The only time Nale has acted helpful was when they first met in the Dungeon of Durokan. Since then Nale hasn't been helpful at all.


Here we might imagine he has a plan that requires his parents be married, and then maybe killed along with Elan. Very typical Nale behavior. Elan has no grounds, beyond story convention, to suddenly go crazy. But going crazy is standard Elan behavior.]

We can imagine such a plan, but if Elan had a plan to get his parents back together why did he ask his illusionary mother why she was getting back with Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)?

Also, it'd be Nales' behavior to maybe go along with the wedding and then disrupt it for convoluted reasons. After all, the reason why Nale tried to kill Elan was for a quasi-imagined slight, for turning down his offer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) to form a new team.

So of course Elan has grounds to "go crazy", his brother is not acting like himself, nor is his mother. Nale saying he wants one day of peace with his family? It's not in line with the Nale that we and Elan know at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html).



But again, this is story convention, in part there for the drama.
You're right, the story convention of actual character growth.


The actual action is usually "no, it can't be. This can't be a lie!"
Why does there have to be only one reaction to such things. Why can there not be more than one reaction?


The truth is accepted only slowly and reluctantly. As one author put it, "you're joking... how can you think such a terrible thing?... you had better have some good evidence... But there must be some explanation... and following with falling into sorrow, not action.

If you accept that all people are the same and react the same way, then yes. But there are a variety of people in the world that react to things differently. Some take baby steps when it comes to approaching truth and others jump in and begin running.

Additionally Elan's reaction wasn't "My brother's not objecting, this must not be real!" His was reaction was "This is odd..." and began questioning his parents about it, along with more confirmation from Nale. It wasn't an immediate leap of conclusion.


Again #50 tells us that he knew the essentials. And his "conversation" with "ma" would have to be based on what he remembers his mother saying. The essentials being that Tarquin was a big mean fighting guy? That only describes him, on a very rough level. That doesn't explain why they split up, and we know that Elan was never told by his mother why (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html).


But what gradual change are we talking about? He remains over-excitable and prone to react based on the logic of the generic story.
His maturity for one. He has matured some since the prequel and comic one. Just because he is still the same in some areas does not mean he hasn't experienced change.


In fact, our writer seems to have gone to pains to make sure it doesn't. Elan's "confession" to Hailey is there to make Therkla essentially a closed chapter, one that can pretty much be ignored from now on.

A quote from the The Giant or else this is just your own conclusion.


Much more character development possible if Elan doesn't mention her.
So if Elan doesn't mention Therkla at all, like she doesn't matter, that Elan would experience character growth? How does that make sense? Doesn't it show that Elan has had some growth since what happened with Therkla has helped shape his view some (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)? It's like, "Oh hey dad, let me share you a little something that didn't affect or change me at all in hopes you might change how you do things." It just doesn't make sense.


But again, where do we see Elan acting different?
The differences (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) in invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) for one, which is actually believing something and then recognizing the mistake and making a small joke about it later. Or how about his spell selection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)? If Elan never experienced growth he would be choosing more illusion spells.


It does. Elan gets right into a fight. But he is back to typical Elan behavior quite rapidly.

So because Elan is still Elan, because discovering that his father is evil doesn't completely change him means no growth at all? Despite worrying about it all later? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)


In what way? As far as I can tell, it amounts to changing his clothes.

What is character growth for you then? A complete deviation of who someone was before to have an entire new outlook and personality on life, a whole different person in the same body? Cause from all you seem to be saying, in which you discount everything that has been said thus far about changes others have seen in Elan, that might be what you are going for.

[AstralFire]

Actually I think that in War & XPs the Giant said that the PRC was entirely made up by him, with its abilities left undefined so he could add them when he needed them to appear.

My statement was in reference to the in-universe origin of Dashing Swordsman - it is explicitly a supplemental book, not the OotS PHB.

[NCoffin]

Which would mean you are accepting that you are probably wrong. You don't have to be convinced here, and in fact can't be even by overwhelming evidence unless you want to be. But we only need the preponderance of the evidence, not beyond the shadow of a doubt. And "not convinced" translates into "it may be true, indeed probably is, but...'

This is simply untrue. If I somehow gave you the impression that I think I'm wrong about something, I guess I apologize, but frankly I wouldn't be arguing a point I didn't believe true. "Not convinced", at least where I come from, simply means that you haven't said anything to sway my opinion yet. Of course I'd be convinced by overwhelming evidence; you have yet to really put forth any evidence at all, I'm afraid.

EmperorSarda has once again made most of the points I myself would.

To reiterate, though, I'm not trying to say that Elan-now is an entirely different person than Elan-at-#100. All I'm saying is that he's a changed person; he's grown up some. He acknowledges that not everytihng is going to work out great for him. Early Elan came across as entirely, almost cripplingly, naive. Is he still? To some extent. I'd say that seeing people he knew and liked die in front of him has - at least partially - "woken him up", as it were, to the realities of his world.

[David Argall]

Repeatedly? The only time Nale has acted helpful was when they first met in the Dungeon of Durokan. Since then Nale hasn't been helpful at all.
Consider his kidnapping caper. Nale approaches Elan in an open, not-immediately hostile manner. One might possibly think he is about to propose a duel to the death between the two, but one would assume it will be an honorable duel to be started when both are ready and merely without the interference of Elan's friends. [At least those who didn't know Nale, or who always thought the best of others would assume so.] So by the loose definition of friendly, he qualifies, until he unleases Thog.
So Nale is acting as Nale does when he says he is not going to interrupt the wedding. That doesn't mean he won't. Indeed, we might consider it evidence he will. But we expect Nale to insist he is not up to anything.



We can imagine such a plan, but if Elan had a plan to get his parents back together why did he ask his illusionary mother why she was getting back with Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)?
Because this is what the plot demanded, that Elan denounce as impossible whatever seemed even a little bit odd, no matter what his previous actions.



Also, it'd be Nales' behavior to maybe go along with the wedding and then disrupt it for convoluted reasons. After all, the reason why Nale tried to kill Elan was for a quasi-imagined slight, for turning down his offer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) to form a new team.

This might be Nale's immediate motive. But we know he was hired to dispose of the party, and his party works like a well-rehearsed play. They came into the first meeting very much intending to backstab the party. Nale might had thoughts about sparing Elan for the moment in order to make use of him later, and the slight might have put an end to such thoughts, but the LG had already set up plans for taking out the guards and is not at all surprised when Nale backstabs Elam.



So of course Elan has grounds to "go crazy", his brother is not acting like himself, nor is his mother. Nale saying he wants one day of peace with his family? It's not in line with the Nale that we and Elan know at all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html).
Nale is a skilled liar. He spends several days with the party as "Elan" without being suspected. That's partly the party's fault, but there is nothing un-Nale about his saying he wants a day of peace. [Meaning it, that's another story, but saying it is routinely Nale.]



You're right, the story convention of actual character growth.
But again, there is no character growth here. We can set the same scene 700 pages earlier and see no problems with Elan behaving the same way. As far as this scene is concerned, he is the same Elan.



But there are a variety of people in the world that react to things differently. Some take baby steps when it comes to approaching truth and others jump in and begin running.
The problem is that they don't come running in such cases. Elan has a big emotional commitment in the situation. He would not abandon that on a detail. This is done here for reasons of drama, not real behavior.



Additionally Elan's reaction wasn't "My brother's not objecting, this must not be real!" His was reaction was "This is odd..." and began questioning his parents about it, along with more confirmation from Nale. It wasn't an immediate leap of conclusion.
No. After a short conversation with Nale, it is "Stop the wedding!". No further investigation, just meeting arguments that this is not that weird. So he is jumping right away.



The essentials being that Tarquin was a big mean fighting guy? That only describes him, on a very rough level. That doesn't explain why they split up, and we know that Elan was never told by his mother why (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html).
This is putting too much stress on a light point. The writer [wisely] is more concerned about the idea of ma wearing a beard to father-son day than how closely this tracts to previous points. We can not assume he even considered the point at issue.
But consider this, ma had 20 years to talk to Elan on the subject, a subject he would have had to be very interested in [or he would not be thinking about the wedding.] We are supposed to assume she only said one sentence? Or to assume she said a lot more and Elan simply summerized it to Nale?



His maturity for one. He has matured some since the prequel and comic one. Just because he is still the same in some areas does not mean he hasn't experienced change.
"Maturity" is like "character development" in being a vague term that is somehow always the case no matter what the facts. Again we need examples of thing he would do differently at different time.



A quote from the The Giant or else this is just your own conclusion.
Well of course it is my own opinion, and you are free to show where it is wrong. But the story will continue and there is no sign her contribution will be more than missing in passing from now on. By contrast, without that confession, the possibility of her deeds coming back into the plot would be constantly in our minds. The effect of that confession is to close her chapter, and reduce character development.



So if Elan doesn't mention Therkla at all, like she doesn't matter, that Elan would experience character growth? How does that make sense? Doesn't it show that Elan has had some growth since what happened with Therkla has helped shape his view some (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)? It's like, "Oh hey dad, let me share you a little something that didn't affect or change me at all in hopes you might change how you do things." It just doesn't make sense.
It in fact is a part of daily life. Elan wants to persuade his dad, and so bring up any incident that might seem relevant to the point and which might influence dad in the desired direction. It doesn't matter if it affected Elan at all, nor in what direction. Elan merely wants an event with negative outcome and is somewhat similar to what dad is planning so that dad will try a different plan. He is just trying to draw a moral, not tell his history.



The differences (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) in invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) for one, which is actually believing something and then recognizing the mistake and making a small joke about it later.
What joke? This is a serious comment. Actually, I am not sure if Elan ever tells a joke [besides puns] in the entire strip. He is a joke, not the teller of them.



Or how about his spell selection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)? If Elan never experienced growth he would be choosing more illusion spells.
Elan is easily influenced, and about anyone else can influence his choices. That he this time is influenced by recent events is hardly a sign of maturity.



So because Elan is still Elan, because discovering that his father is evil doesn't completely change him means no growth at all? Despite worrying about it all later? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)
No, because there really is little to no growth.



What is character growth for you then? A complete deviation of who someone was before to have an entire new outlook and personality on life, a whole different person in the same body? Cause from all you seem to be saying, in which you discount everything that has been said thus far about changes others have seen in Elan, that might be what you are going for.
Well, let's look at Hailey-Elan. Prior to 302, we have no sign Elan regards her as other than one of the boys. Indeed, it is only with 302 that we get much evidence that Elan is actually sexual at all. It isn't until 365 that he starts considering her something special. Thereafter, we rapidly lose track of the number of references to their love affair. Clear change, fully documented.
But our "character development"? we are having trouble finding it at all. It is dubious events that are scattered and of unsure meaning.

[NCoffin]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your main argument against character growth seems to be that we've not seen any evidence on-screen that to you is conclusive; everything could have happened with an unchanged character.

But, when you refute the point about what Elan knows of his father rpior to meeting him, you say:


But consider this, ma had 20 years to talk to Elan on the subject, a subject he would have had to be very interested in [or he would not be thinking about the wedding.] We are supposed to assume she only said one sentence? Or to assume she said a lot more and Elan simply summerized it to Nale?

This strikes me as the opposite position. That, in effect, we can assume certain off-screen actions/conversations. How can you reconcile the two? If you dismiss character growth as not appearing on-screen, you can't then argue for another point using off-screen evidence.

If you're instead arguing the "harder" (for lack of a better term. Stronger?) position that "no character growth has happened, and we know that", then I'm mistaken and feel free to disregard this post.

[EmperorSarda]

Consider his kidnapping caper. Nale approaches Elan in an open, not-immediately hostile manner. One might possibly think he is about to propose a duel to the death between the two, but one would assume it will be an honorable duel to be started when both are ready and merely without the interference of Elan's friends.
A duel is only one way to look at it. We have no idea what Elan was thinking except him stringing together clues. We don't even know if Elan had arrived at a conclusion beyond no one interfering.

Nor is his arrogant manner helpful, nor can it really be considered friendly. If anything, the only thing you have correct is that Nale has a tendency to set traps. And by Illusionary Nale not setting a trap or doing anything to interfere, but not even expressing outrage at not being the best man (which would be characteristic of Nale), Elan does have plenty of reason to be suspicious.


Because this is what the plot demanded, that Elan denounce as impossible whatever seemed even a little bit odd, no matter what his previous actions.

It makes no sense story wise though. Why ask his mother a question that he already has an answer to if he has a plan? If he had a plan, wouldn't he say something like, "I know I did, this, this and this to get you back together, but why else are you getting back with Tarquin". He doesn't. If there was some plan enacted in the illusion, it would have been stated. The marriage happens in the illusion because Elan wanted it to happen, and so it did. Just like Shojo was resurrected in Belkar's illusion, because Scruffy wanted tummy rubs.


This might be Nale's immediate motive. But we know he was hired to dispose of the party, and his party works like a well-rehearsed play. They came into the first meeting very much intending to backstab the party. Because Nale didn't know he had a brother when he was hired by Xykon.


Nale might had thoughts about sparing Elan for the moment in order to make use of him later, and the slight might have put an end to such thoughts, but the LG had already set up plans for taking out the guards and is not at all surprised when Nale backstabs Elan. What does it matter what Nale's party members thought? Nale was the leader, if Nale wanted he could have told his party members to spare Elan, that he was joining them. (Had Elan joined of course)



Nale is a skilled liar. He spends several days with the party as "Elan" without being suspected.
Because it doesn't take much skill to act like a buffoon. Note Nale doesn't even have to say anything (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) and he is accepted as Elan, because the party doesn't even put an effort to questioning what has happened.


but there is nothing un-Nale about his saying he wants a day of peace. [Meaning it, that's another story, but saying it is routinely Nale.]
Yes there is, there totally is. Nale didn't lure the Order to Cliffport with promises of peace, nor did he approach Elan with promises of peace. To want peace when the whole brotherly relationship has been tarnished with violence is completely uncharacteristic of Nale.


But again, there is no character growth here. We can set the same scene 700 pages earlier and see no problems with Elan behaving the same way. As far as this scene is concerned, he is the same Elan.
No, because the Elan at the beginning of the comic would accept the illusion wholeheartedly, because Elan is much more naive, much more foolhardy, and much more trusting. He has learned, he has grown. Elan has grown from the person who thought that the Rob You While You Sleep Inn was just an ironic name.


The problem is that they don't come running in such cases. Elan has a big emotional commitment in the situation. He would not abandon that on a detail. This is done here for reasons of drama, not real behavior.
How is being suspicious of Nale not acting like Nale a question of drama. What trope can be cited to justify that, when it takes growth to recognize when someone isn't being themselves. If it was a question of drama, wouldn't Elan say to Nale "I know you're lying about not stopping the wedding, and I'll stop you when do"? Cause a bad guy stopping weddings is a trope, as pointed out by Tarquin. One that Elan was warning his brother not to execute and the sheer honesty of his brother is what caught him off guard.


No. After a short conversation with Nale, it is "Stop the wedding!". No further investigation, just meeting arguments that this is not that weird. So he is jumping right away. Cause it is totally normal for estranged parents who have nothing in common to get remarried just for the sake of one of their adult children?


This is putting too much stress on a light point. The writer [wisely] is more concerned about the idea of ma wearing a beard to father-son day than how closely this tracts to previous points. We can not assume he even considered the point at issue.

That Elan talks about picnics is not the issue, nor is it relevant. What is revealed is that in those years growing up he knew nothing of the break up. No reason as to why they split up. His own mother never even mentioned a brother despite him catching her crying over a "lost nail". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)


We are supposed to assume she only said one sentence? Or to assume she said a lot more and Elan simply summerized it to Nale?
We don't need to assume anything, because what Elan's mother told him is clearly spelled out in the comic.


It in fact is a part of daily life. Elan wants to persuade his dad, and so bring up any incident that might seem relevant to the point and which might influence dad in the desired direction. It doesn't matter if it affected Elan at all, nor in what direction. Elan merely wants an event with negative outcome and is somewhat similar to what dad is planning so that dad will try a different plan. He is just trying to draw a moral, not tell his history.
Yes, he is trying to draw a moral from what he learned and was still learning, because it affected him so.


Elan is easily influenced, and about anyone else can influence his choices. That he this time is influenced by recent events is hardly a sign of maturity.

If Elan is easily influenced, why does he still worship his puppet? Why does he persist in Bardic Tradition even when at times it is detrimental? If Elan is easily, why did it take so much to convince Elan that his father is evil?


Well, let's look at Hailey-Elan. Prior to 302, we have no sign Elan regards her as other than one of the boys. Indeed, it is only with 302 that we get much evidence that Elan is actually sexual at all.
Umm, we have plenty of evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html)beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).

[David Argall]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your main argument against character growth seems to be that we've not seen any evidence on-screen that to you is conclusive; everything could have happened with an unchanged character.
I have not seen much evidence that is even indicative.



But, when you refute the point about what Elan knows of his father rpior to meeting him, you say:

This strikes me as the opposite position. That, in effect, we can assume certain off-screen actions/conversations. How can you reconcile the two?
In some cases, it is very easy. Take our bathroom strips. There surely have been hundreds, maybe thousands of such trips off stage. We automatically assume them.
The case of conversations about the missing father is nearly as easy to assume. We have a son who is clearly interested in his dad, and about 20 years to pester Ma about him. Unless we assume possibilities like her beating Elan every time he asked, we have to assume Ma said a lot that is not listed in comic text. Now we can't assume it was at all friendly [or that Elan actually remembers much of anything], but we just know the mother in such a situation is going to have to tell the kid more than a sentence or two.



If you dismiss character growth as not appearing on-screen, you can't then argue for another point using off-screen evidence.
That depends on the details of the case. We assume bathroom breaks, even without our bathroom strips, but we can't assume very much about these bathrooms, or even that they will really qualify as bathrooms.
Same point for mother-son conversations. We can't say much about what was said, but we can say something was said.
But when we are talking about character development, we are not talking about the general idea that he has changed, but that Elan has changed in a particular way. That is precision that requires support from the text, and that is what we are lacking.



If you're instead arguing the "harder" (for lack of a better term. Stronger?) position that "no character growth has happened, and we know that", then I'm mistaken and feel free to disregard this post.
Since we are talking of a change, the burden of proof is on those who wish to claim Elan has changed. But this evidence just isn't there. We can point to loads of differences in his attitude towards Hailey, but the evidence he is more mature or something... it is rare and selective.

[EmperorSarda]

I have not seen much evidence that is even indicative.
You've been presented evidence on how Therkla's death has affected Elan, in which he chooses new spells based off that. He even bucks bardic tradition, which is not Elan-like, to tell Haley about Therkla. Plus all the brooding about his father and accepting that his family isn't going to reunite. Not to mention improving with how he works his illusions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html) and grasp of sarcasm. Therkla dying was a traumatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html) experience for Elan. Traumatic experiences tend to change how some people think.


The case of conversations about the missing father is nearly as easy to assume. We have a son who is clearly interested in his dad, and about 20 years to pester Ma about him. Unless we assume possibilities like her beating Elan every time he asked, we have to assume Ma said a lot that is not listed in comic text. Now we can't assume it was at all friendly [or that Elan actually remembers much of anything], but we just know the mother in such a situation is going to have to tell the kid more than a sentence or two.
This is coming from the same mother (and father for that instance) who never told their son that they have a brother. We cannot make assumptions about what Elan knows because all that has been revealed in what he told Nale, about knowing his father was a mean fighting guy, and that Elan was never told why his parents split up. Tarquin asked him directly, and Elan gave him a firm no. We cannot assume otherwise until the comic postures otherwise. Otherwise we are making our own story up and not following the one presented us.

[Carry2]

Yeah... Elan has probably shown at least a little bit of development over the course of the strip. I doubt it's a fundamental paradigm shift, but on average it's there, alright.

[David Argall]

A duel is only one way to look at it. We have no idea what Elan was thinking except him stringing together clues. We don't even know if Elan had arrived at a conclusion beyond no one interfering.

Nor is his arrogant manner helpful, nor can it really be considered friendly. If anything, the only thing you have correct is that Nale has a tendency to set traps. And by Illusionary Nale not setting a trap or doing anything to interfere, but not even expressing outrage at not being the best man (which would be characteristic of Nale), Elan does have plenty of reason to be suspicious.
Well of course when he is dealing with Nale, but not because Nale is acting in an un-Nale-like manner. Both times before Nale acted the same way, peaceful and making no visible threat.So at the wedding he acts peaceful and no visible threat. How is that different for Nale?



It makes no sense story wise though. Why ask his mother a question that he already has an answer to if he has a plan?
Who says ge had a plan? the dream would just provide that and he would feel he had a plan, or not. But his question to his mother is rhetorical, not a request for information.



If he had a plan, wouldn't he say something like, "I know I did, this, this and this to get you back together, but why else are you getting back with Tarquin". He doesn't. If there was some plan enacted in the illusion, it would have been stated. The marriage happens in the illusion because Elan wanted it to happen, and so it did.
Your train of logic does not seem to be going anywhere.



Just like Shojo was resurrected in Belkar's illusion, because Scruffy wanted tummy rubs.
Actually, it is unlikely Shojo was resurrected in Belkar's illusion. The cat wanted him there and so he was there.


Because Nale didn't know he had a brother when he was hired by Xykon.

That is what Nale said, but we know Nale to be a consistent liar. This is inconsistent with what we hear from Tarquin [who is also quite a liar.] Tarquin claims to have made considerable efforts to find Elan, efforts that Nale would know about. [Of course, Tarquin was trying to impress Elan and making some outlandish claims. So we can't assume he is telling the truth. {in fact, we are almost certain he is lying on some points} here either. Still, he had 20 years to mention to Nale that he had a brother and while Elan could easily forget such information, Nale would remember, and want to eliminate the competition.



What does it matter what Nale's party members thought?
Minions need to know their cues, and just when they are to attack, and the LG acted like a well oiled machine. The backstab was not a surprise to any of them. Other elements of betrayal also had to be planned in advance, before Nale ever saw the Order, and the minions knew just what they were to do. Nale had to have discussed his plot in advance with them. He may not have told them all, but he did issue orders before he ever saw the party.



Because it doesn't take much skill to act like a buffoon. Note Nale doesn't even have to say anything (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) and he is accepted as Elan, because the party doesn't even put an effort to questioning what has happened.
Actually Hailey did some quite serious questioning when he started hitting on her. But while the party didn't make it hard on him, Nale still had to keep the disguise up for several days. So he ranks as a pretty good liar.



Nale didn't lure the Order to Cliffport with promises of peace, nor did he approach Elan with promises of peace.
But he did, for the very short term. He approached Elan with empty arms, and no sign of violence. We may not be sure what Elan was thinking, but he could see a "peaceful" Nale.



To want peace when the whole brotherly relationship has been tarnished with violence is completely uncharacteristic of Nale.
To want peace is uncharacteristic. To SAY he wants peace [followed by a backstab] is very characteristic of Nale. Elan sees nothing unusual here.



No, because the Elan at the beginning of the comic would accept the illusion wholeheartedly, because Elan is much more naive, much more foolhardy, and much more trusting. He has learned, he has grown. Elan has grown from the person who thought that the Rob You While You Sleep Inn was just an ironic name.
This is simply an assertion, and as said, one that requires proof because it is a claim of change.



How is being suspicious of Nale not acting like Nale a question of drama.

As said, Nale is acting like Nale, as far as Elan can tell. But it is drama because it is a standard piece of drama, where the hero realizes something is wrong and then realizes everything is a hoax.



What trope can be cited to justify that, when it takes growth to recognize when someone isn't being themselves.
But no growth is needed. One just realizes that 2+2 is not equaling 4. The Prisoner, a tv show of a few decades back, used this theme fairly often, with the hero not changing.



If it was a question of drama, wouldn't Elan say to Nale "I know you're lying about not stopping the wedding, and I'll stop you when do"? Cause a bad guy stopping weddings is a trope, as pointed out by Tarquin. One that Elan was warning his brother not to execute and the sheer honesty of his brother is what caught him off guard.

Now how would Elan know that Nale was being honest here?



Cause it is totally normal for estranged parents who have nothing in common to get remarried just for the sake of one of their adult children?

Largely irrelevant. Elan was stopping the wedding before that came up.



That Elan talks about picnics is not the issue, nor is it relevant.

What is relevant is that your logic depends on the writer having been very precise in his meaning here. And the evidence is that he was more interested in the story and the jokes than perfect logic. Granted, our author has been quite clever quite often, but from the first strip, there have been errors and assuming perfect logic, especially when several liars are our sources of information, is not without risks.



What is revealed is that in those years growing up he knew nothing of the break up. No reason as to why they split up. His own mother never even mentioned a brother despite him catching her crying over a "lost nail". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)

Now this is a good story, which is one of the problems. Our story gets preference over mere facts. Inconsistencies are to be tolerated or embraced for the sake of drama.



We don't need to assume anything, because what Elan's mother told him is clearly spelled out in the comic.
But we have reason to think it is not correctly spelled out, for one reason because we are listening to a almost brainless Elan. It requires us to assume a son interested in the parents remarrying would not learn anything about one of those parents. For that matter, it requires us to ignore the behavior of most orphans, who are quite interested in their parents. Much easier to assume Elan meant "nothing" in the definition of "not much.



Yes, he is trying to draw a moral from what he learned and was still learning, because it affected him so.
But where is the evidence that it has affected him at all?



If Elan is easily influenced, why does he still worship his puppet? Why does he persist in Bardic Tradition even when at times it is detrimental? If Elan is easily, why did it take so much to convince Elan that his father is evil?

Easily influenced does not mean always influenced.



Umm, we have plenty of evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html)beforehand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).
True, I had forgotten these, but they do not change the tone here. Elan did not regard Hailey as something special for 350 stripes. Then she becomes very important. This is very heavily documented. By contrast, the evidence for "character development" is very thin.

[hamishspence]

Prior to 302, we have no sign Elan regards her as other than one of the boys. Indeed, it is only with 302 that we get much evidence that Elan is actually sexual at all.

What about these two strips?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

[Ceaon]

But again, where do we see Elan acting different? He remains cheerful and innocent.

Would it be character development if Elan still acts the same after instance X, but for a different reason?

[hamishspence]

The Giant had some interesting things to say about Elan's character development in War & XPs:

Buckling his Swash

In order to make him a believable romantic lead, I needed to transform him without losing his ... Elanyness. Based on his love of the dramatic and his genre savvyness, I decided to give him an upgrade to a wisecracking pun-slinging action hero. Not only would this advance his romantic subplot, but giving him some much-needed combat skills would help keep him relevant in the upcoming battle for Azure City.

By forcing him to escape Cliffport on his own, I made him grow up - just a little - into the sort of man who is willing to fight for his girl. And in the process, I hopefully made it easier to conceive of Elan in an adult relationship without it seeming like Haley was somehow taking advantage of his childlike nature. Even though Haley clearly wears The Pants in their relationship, I thought Elan needed to be able to realistically sweep her off her feet at least once.