[3.5] Improve this katana?

[ericp65]

Craftspersons and enchanters, your assistance is requested and valued for improving the following katana, the primary weapon for one of my epic knightly characters. No published materials are banned, and any balanced homebrew is welcome. Some details come from Epic Level Handbook, and some from The Complete Book of Eldritch Might.

Wyrmcleaver
Katana +6, Dragon Dread (+9, +4d6, DC 27 Fort save on crit or be turned to dust)
INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 16, STR 20, DEX 20
EGO 44
HP 166, Hardness 22
AL NG
Communication: speech (speaks/reads Common, Draconic, Elven, Shou)
Primary Abilities: Wielder has free use of Sunder and Mobility, can use See Invisibility.
Special Ability: Dread
Lesser Powers: 10 ranks in Knowledge (dragonkind)
Senses: 60' darkvision and hearing
Trait: Strong morals
Extraordinary Powers: Lightning Bolt (8d6), Invisibility (wielder) up to 30 minutes, Cat's Grace (wielder), Levitation (wielder, 10 minutes).
Special Purpose: Defeat/slay dragons
Special Purpose Power: +4 bonus on saves, +4 AC, SR 30
Awesome Power: Haste (wielder, 40 rounds)
Level 17/1 (1 Fighter level)
BAB +13/+8/+3
Saves: F +23, R +21, W +20

The sword has several feats and skills, and a couple spell-like abilities (cure light wounds 1d8+5, feather fall). It can animate itself and attack, and can empower and maximize its abilities.

Ready? Discuss! TIA for any input :smallsmile:

[only1doug]

there are a bunch of fixed price enhancements in the magic item compendium, I see no reason not to stick them all onto the weapon, the cost is minimal compared to the other costs already involved.

illuminating, Aquatic, everbright, hideaway, shadowstrike, sizing, slowburst, Vanishing, Prismatic burst.

61,500 gp for all of the lot. (which is nothing to an epic character)

Edit: although hideaway seems pointless when you have sizing...

[Darrin]

Needs more Starmetal (Complete Arcane). Same properties as adamantine, but does +1d6 damage to extraplanar creatures. I'd also add Pitspawned (DMGII) for +2 to confirm crits. I'd probably throw on a wand chamber (Dungeonscape) as well.

[BowStreetRunner]

I always begin with the Masterwork Weapon itself, before adding magical enhancements. Darrin made several suggestions that are worth considering in his post above. While you might not agree with his specific recommendations, in general you should consider each of the types of improvements he suggests.


A special material (Starmetal, Adamantine, etc.)
A weapon template (Pitspawned, Fireshaped, etc.) from DMGII
Any other augmentations (Wand Chamber, etc.)
Dwarvencrafted (RoS)

[ericp65]

there are a bunch of fixed price enhancements in the magic item compendium, I see no reason not to stick them all onto the weapon, the cost is minimal compared to the other costs already involved.

illuminating, Aquatic, everbright, hideaway, shadowstrike, sizing, slowburst, Vanishing, Prismatic burst.

61,500 gp for all of the lot. (which is nothing to an epic character)

Edit: although hideaway seems pointless when you have sizing...

Sweet, I recognize some of those. Just gotta track 'em all down (which books they come from) and add the details to the weapon's item sheet.

[ericp65]

Needs more Starmetal (Complete Arcane). Same properties as adamantine, but does +1d6 damage to extraplanar creatures. I'd also add Pitspawned (DMGII) for +2 to confirm crits. I'd probably throw on a wand chamber (Dungeonscape) as well.

Very nice, that Starmetal! I hadn't specified the materials used in construction, so this works perfectly. Wand chamber is pretty sweet, too...

If I can think of a way to fit the Pitspawned template, I'll include it also (the weapon is good-aligned, so maybe there's a way it could have been "purified" and still keep its properties):smallamused:

[ericp65]

I always begin with the Masterwork Weapon itself, before adding magical enhancements. Darrin made several suggestions that are worth considering in his post above. While you might not agree with his specific recommendations, in general you should consider each of the types of improvements he suggests.


A special material (Starmetal, Adamantine, etc.)
A weapon template (Pitspawned, Fireshaped, etc.) from DMGII
Any other augmentations (Wand Chamber, etc.)
Dwarvencrafted (RoS)


Agreed, and I'll check out the other weapon templates in DMGII as well, to see if another one would be more appropriate than Pitspawned (maybe it was forged on some Upper Plane, instead of a Lower Plane...).

[only1doug]

Sweet, I recognize some of those. Just gotta track 'em all down (which books they come from) and add the details to the weapon's item sheet.

All of those were from the Magic item compendium:

illuminating- pretty obvious what this does

Aquatic- no penalties to weilding weapon underwater

everbright- blinding flash a few times a day + immune to rust and acid

hideaway- folds down to a smaller size on command

shadowstrike- add 5' reach and remove opponents dex bonus 1/day

sizing- changes size as required

slowburst- opponent must save vs slow on crit, low save dc

Vanishing- after hit PC may DD 1/day

Prismatic burst- opponent must save vs prismatic effects on crit, low save dc (for epic opponents the DC will be low).

so the two burst effects offer low saves, but if the opponents aren't immune to magic they may fail one of the 2-3 saves they have to make, all you lose is the cost of the enchantment and as it is a static cost (doesn't raise the + bonus of the weapon) its chump change at that level, might as well have it just in case it hits.

[ericp65]

All of those were from the Magic item compendium:

illuminating- pretty obvious what this does

Aquatic- no penalties to weilding weapon underwater

everbright- blinding flash a few times a day + immune to rust and acid

hideaway- folds down to a smaller size on command

shadowstrike- add 5' reach and remove opponents dex bonus 1/day

sizing- changes size as required

slowburst- opponent must save vs slow on crit, low save dc

Vanishing- after hit PC may DD 1/day

Prismatic burst- opponent must save vs prismatic effects on crit, low save dc (for epic opponents the DC will be low).

so the two burst effects offer low saves, but if the opponents aren't immune to magic they may fail one of the 2-3 saves they have to make, all you lose is the cost of the enchantment and as it is a static cost (doesn't raise the + bonus of the weapon) its chump change at that level, might as well have it just in case it hits.

Ah, that was one of the holes in my library. Now filled :) Sure, these all look great!

[Amnestic]

I see no mention of weapon crystals (MIC) in this thread so far. Can only slot in one at a time and the bonuses aren't that amazing at epic level, but they also don't cost terribly much. Demolition crystal (can crit/sneak attack constructs) and Truedeath crystal (can crit/sneak attack undead) are probably top of the list of things you might want to consider having around. Greater Crystal of Energy Assault (Electric) gives a +1d6 electric damage but it also dazzles the target for 1 round - no save. Might be worth considering.

[Mato]

I see no mention of weapon crystals (MIC) in this thread so far.I see no mention of the extremely obvious Weapons of Legacy either.

Have a guide. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19858386/Building_a_weapon_of_legacy,_for_dummies.)

[Krobar]

One of my favorite weapon modifications is a very simple one: add a wand chamber and a Wand of Wraithstrike.

[ddude987]

I would add an alloy on top of the metal (adamatine, starmetal, etc...) I would use oerthblood it lowers the cost of enchanting as well as includes a free +1 and an ohit stacking debuff. Its from dragon but I don't re,member which

[ericp65]

I would add an alloy on top of the metal (adamatine, starmetal, etc...) I would use oerthblood it lowers the cost of enchanting as well as includes a free +1 and an ohit stacking debuff. Its from dragon but I don't re,member which

Starmetal is in. Anything Greyhawk-related is out.

If it matters, the weapon exists in Faerun, and is the signature/primary weapon of my best and favorite epic character, a good knightly Drow, who pairs it with a holy wakizashi ("Sacred Guardian"). I'd like to give that weapon some great features as well, to make it a fitting complement to Wyrmcleaver.

Maybe another name would be better for the katana, come to think of it *L*

[ericp65]

I see no mention of the extremely obvious Weapons of Legacy either.

Have a guide. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19858386/Building_a_weapon_of_legacy,_for_dummies.)

Wonderbars! I'll check the guide and the WoL volume (never used it before).

[Gildedragon]

Katana, eh?

There's the katana only enhancement that gives a ++ to Iaijutsu Focus checks
Pure ore is a good addition to add oomph to the metal
but go riverine: it is a blade of force and water. Hell it sets up a theme there. Pitspawned template makes it cooler

A sword shaped from the waters of the Styx

Though Hellforged might be better: you get to add the Speed enhancement for cheap. and between keen and an extra attack, I think the extra attack is better

[unseenmage]

You could also simply hit it with some spell buffs (or give it the ability to do so on it's own)

Hardening is obvious.

Augment Objects from the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook is nice too.
You could either put it in the item at a certain number of uses per day or use Permanency on it (I always use the same cost as Shrink Item)

Speaking of, Shrink Item is fun too. Shrink the sword down and make it "clothlike" as per the spell then wear it into no-weapon communities as a belt.

[only1doug]

Speaking of, Shrink Item is fun too. Shrink the sword down and make it "clothlike" as per the spell then wear it into no-weapon communities as a belt.

Shrink Item doesn't work on magical items and is redundant if the sizing enchantment was taken, simply cammand the sword to change size to Fine and use it as an ornamental pin.

[unseenmage]

Shrink Item doesn't work on magical items and is redundant if the sizing enchantment was taken, simply cammand the sword to change size to Fine and use it as an ornamental pin.

I hadn't realized that, sorry. I wonder what happens if you use the spells on the sword THEN make it a magic item?


In any case I just remembered another suggestion, the Artisan Craftsman feat(s) from Dragon Magazine 358 pg39. They could add some more bonuses as well.

[Metahuman1]

shadowstrike- add 5' reach and remove opponents dex bonus 1/day




Question: How much would it cost to get just the deny dex bonus to be continuous? (I don't care if the weapon has the +5ft of reach once a day, or even if it has it at all.)

[ericp65]

The weapon will further benefit from its current wielder's two levels of Totemist :)

[Eurus]

Question: How much would it cost to get just the deny dex bonus to be continuous? (I don't care if the weapon has the +5ft of reach once a day, or even if it has it at all.)

Continuous? As in, opponents are always flat-footed against this weapon? I can't think of an easy way to do it off the top of my head, and it'd be hilariously expensive if you could.

[Gavinfoxx]

Faerun-specific, eh?

So no Dragonlance stuff, no Eberron stuff...

Okay, here is one possible alternative swords that might do Katana better than 'Bastard Sword'.

Great Scimitar, which is a hand and a half curved sword... from Sandstorm, I think. 18-20 crit range, for use with Keen.

As far as Faerun materials, you might want to use Hizagkuur, and use Hardening and that psionic power to get it slightly past Adamantine in hardness.

Some mundane stuff to add:

Pure Ore
Gloryborn
Perfect Balance
Razor Sharp
Oil Chamber / Wand Chamber / Hilt Hollow / Weapon Capsule Retainer (pick one; you'll likely not have 'room' for all of these, though no rules say you can't do that)
Resilient
Acid Washed
Ornate
Dwarvencraft
Folded Metal

I would only make it a +3 -- for the Weapon Crystal--, and simply add bonuses appropriate to the theme for the other +3. After all, Greater Magic Weapon is a thing; you might even want to make the pommel a Wondrous item of Greater Magic Weapon 1 or 2/day.

Read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12837.0

For ideas on the magical stuff.

[GoatBoy]

Everyone knows katanas are underpowered in 3.5.

[Metahuman1]

Continuous? As in, opponents are always flat-footed against this weapon? I can't think of an easy way to do it off the top of my head, and it'd be hilariously expensive if you could.

Yup. But for the type of character I have in mind for that trick, it would be easy to make the weapon class, alignment and race specific to lower the price once the price is established.

Heck, I'd even be willing to throw in making a none action slight or hand check or something to further cut the cost. I just need to figure out what the base price of making that one part go form 1/day to "Every round" or "Every round you can make the check."

[ericp65]

So many great options...but an item is limited in the special qualities that can be applied to it, isn't it? That will force me into paring down the list of goodies to add to the item.

[ericp65]

Can more than one alloy be combined, along with the properties?

[BowStreetRunner]

So many great options...but an item is limited in the special qualities that can be applied to it, isn't it? That will force me into paring down the list of goodies to add to the item.

If a single weapon has a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10 then it must be an Epic weapon.

[BowStreetRunner]

Can more than one alloy be combined, along with the properties?

Per the DMG page 283 "If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material." The sole exception mentioned is a double-weapon, which can have each half use a different material. I have also known DMs to allow a Shield or Armor of one material with Shield or Armor Spikes of another.

[Talderas]

Needs more Starmetal (Complete Arcane). Same properties as adamantine, but does +1d6 damage to extraplanar creatures. I'd also add Pitspawned (DMGII) for +2 to confirm crits. I'd probably throw on a wand chamber (Dungeonscape) as well.

Starmetal isn't that useful in an epic campaign where you're typically spending your time time fighting things on other planes. It's secondary benefit only is useful against extraplanar creatures on the material plane. So if you encounter a sucubus on the elemental plane of fire you gain no benefit.

[ericp65]

Per the DMG page 283 "If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material." The sole exception mentioned is a double-weapon, which can have each half use a different material. I have also known DMs to allow a Shield or Armor of one material with Shield or Armor Spikes of another.

I suspected it wouldn't be possible to preserve all the qualities. OK, then, Wyrmcleaver will be made of starmetal.

When I first read "pure ore," I thought that was a generic term, but apparently it's a distinct metal. Would have been nice to have "pure ore starmetal."

[ericp65]

If a single weapon has a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10 then it must be an Epic weapon.

No peoblem, then, as this is already an Epic weapon :)

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, it could always use Vorpal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14873536#post14873536).

[Gavinfoxx]

You can stack Pure Ore with another material, like Hizagkuur or Starmetal, that just means you got it from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Okay, I think you need it as 'base +6' so it bypasses DR/Epic, which is otherwise hard to bypass. If you DON'T need that to bypass DR/Epic, I would only make it +3 and add other abilities to it. I would consider making it 'Shadow Striking' from Tome of Magic, and 'Swarmstrike' (Dungeonscape), in order to bypass DR.

At Epic levels, the primary concern isn't 'having a bunch of sometimes useful effects', the concern is 'can my weapon bypass the defenses of this creature at all, so I can use my class features to kill it?'

After all, you're going to be doing stuff like charging and two handing (do not use your short sword in your off hand! Use the main weapon two handed!) it and dealing tons of damage if you can hit it, and if it isn't 100% immune to your attack, so you should endeavor to make sure it ISN'T 100% immune to your attacks.

Here are some links for you to read:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138
http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

For ideas of weapons for high-end characters, and abilities for high end characters in general.

[BowStreetRunner]

At Epic levels...the concern is 'can my weapon bypass the defenses of this creature at all, so I can use my class features to kill it?'

Your weapon needs to reflect your nature. If your class features are designed to damage or apply debuffs to an opponent, then your weapon should be all about getting through your opponent's defenses. If your class features are all about bypassing your opponent's defenses, then your weapon should be all about doing damage or applying debuffs an opponent. The weapon has to compliment your build in order to protect the investment you made in your class features.

[Talderas]

Okay, I think you need it as 'base +6' so it bypasses DR/Epic, which is otherwise hard to bypass. If you DON'T need that to bypass DR/Epic, I would only make it +3 and add other abilities to it. I would consider making it 'Shadow Striking' from Tome of Magic, and 'Swarmstrike' (Dungeonscape), in order to bypass DR.

I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. /epic damage reduction requires an epic weapon in order to bypass. By the rules, any item which has an effective enhancement bonus of +11 or greater is an epic weapon and uses the epic weapon cost table. However, if you read damage reduction it labels an epic weapon as something with at least +6 enhancement bonus. So what we have is two separate definitions for epic weapon. I think there is a valid case to be made that a weapon with an effective enhancement of +11 is an epic weapon that qualifies for bypassing damage reduction.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. /epic damage reduction requires an epic weapon in order to bypass. By the rules, any item which has an effective enhancement bonus of +11 or greater is an epic weapon and uses the epic weapon cost table. However, if you read damage reduction it labels an epic weapon as something with at least +6 enhancement bonus. So what we have is two separate definitions for epic weapon. I think there is a valid case to be made that a weapon with an effective enhancement of +11 is an epic weapon that qualifies for bypassing damage reduction.

Rules Compendium page 41 states "Weapons that have a magical enhancement bonus of +6 or higher can overcome epic damage reduction. An “epic weapon” isn’t enough."

So an item with a +5 enhancement bonus but a total effective enhancement bonus of +11 is indeed an epic weapon, but doesn't overcome DR/epic.

[Spuddles]

Has anyone mentioned kaorti resin yet? Makes the crit multiplier x4.

[TuggyNE]

Rules Compendium page 41 states "Weapons that have a magical enhancement bonus of +6 or higher can overcome epic damage reduction. An “epic weapon” isn’t enough."

So an item with a +5 enhancement bonus but a total effective enhancement bonus of +11 is indeed an epic weapon, but doesn't overcome DR/epic.

More precisely, weapons that bypass epic DR are a proper subset of epic weapons; you cannot get a +6 weapon without it being an epic weapon*, but the converse is not true.

*With a few exceptions that I know of, mostly relating to Bane increasing effective enhancement bonus.

[Spuddles]

More precisely, weapons that bypass epic DR are a proper subset of epic weapons; you cannot get a +6 weapon without it being an epic weapon*, but the converse is not true.

*With a few exceptions that I know of, mostly relating to Bane increasing effective enhancement bonus.

Can you rephrase that with fewer negatives? Like make it a positive statement: all epic weapons are at least +6, or all +6 weapons all epic. I believe both of those statements are true.

By converse do you mean if a weapon is not +6, it could still be epic? A +5 shocking burst vorpal sword, for instance, is what, +12? Which means it is epic and gets the x10 cost modifier, but still won't overcome DR/epic.

Ok I think I'm dumb.

[ericp65]

Has anyone mentioned kaorti resin yet? Makes the crit multiplier x4.

I read about that just recently. Wasn't sure if it could be applied to a case like this, but I'll take it, if I can :)

[ericp65]

You can stack Pure Ore with another material, like Hizagkuur or Starmetal, that just means you got it from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Okay, I think you need it as 'base +6' so it bypasses DR/Epic, which is otherwise hard to bypass. If you DON'T need that to bypass DR/Epic, I would only make it +3 and add other abilities to it. I would consider making it 'Shadow Striking' from Tome of Magic, and 'Swarmstrike' (Dungeonscape), in order to bypass DR.

At Epic levels, the primary concern isn't 'having a bunch of sometimes useful effects', the concern is 'can my weapon bypass the defenses of this creature at all, so I can use my class features to kill it?'

After all, you're going to be doing stuff like charging and two handing (do not use your short sword in your off hand! Use the main weapon two handed!) it and dealing tons of damage if you can hit it, and if it isn't 100% immune to your attack, so you should endeavor to make sure it ISN'T 100% immune to your attacks.

Here are some links for you to read:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188138
http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

For ideas of weapons for high-end characters, and abilities for high end characters in general.

Much obliged!

[Gildedragon]

Note that there is an enchantment that bypasses DRs after the first blow. I forget the name.

Also: if looking for something that'll resist damage, Riverine. It's easy to make indestructible.

[Gavinfoxx]

Kaorti Resin has MAJOR durability, price, dm fiat, and logistics issues.

Not to mention is Eberron.

[Spuddles]

Kaorti Resin has MAJOR durability, price, dm fiat, and logistics issues.

Not to mention is Eberron.

Lesser planar binding + fabricate. That's what, an 11th level wizard ally?

[Gavinfoxx]

Lesser planar binding + fabricate. That's what, an 11th level wizard ally?

Well, we're only supposed to use Faerun sources. Sorry!

[Spuddles]

Well, we're only supposed to use Faerun sources. Sorry!

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Realm

Also, please review first paragraph of OP regarding material allowed.

Furthermore, FR is drowning in high level casters. Finding a mage shouldn't be too difficult.

[ericp65]

Well, we're only supposed to use Faerun sources. Sorry!

Yeah, the sword's current wielder is native to Toril. One of his closest friends is a 36th level arcane caster, who is originally from Earth, but none of my characters has ever been to Eberron. The arcane caster has an Artificer cohort (NPC) whose backstory hasn't been fully detailed, so he might possibly have been from Eberron, but none of my PCs have any knowledge of Eberron, unless said Artificer has chatted about it with his "employer." The wielder has been to some of the Outer Planes, but never to any other Prime worlds besides Toril.

[Spuddles]

The kaorti are far realms denizens; the far realms is in both FR and Greyhawk. The kaorti and their ribbon daggers first showed up in 3.x in the 3.0 Fiend Folio. The rules for their weapons are in a web enhancement on wotc. Kaorti and the far realms aren't in eberron, at all. Instead they have Khyber. The far realms analogue in Pathfinder is the Void.

Here's where the rules are from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

How anyone got it into their heads that this was Eberron material (eberron didn't even exist when it was published), I have no idea.

[TuggyNE]

Can you rephrase that with fewer negatives? Like make it a positive statement: all epic weapons are at least +6, or all +6 weapons all epic. I believe both of those statements are true.

By converse do you mean if a weapon is not +6, it could still be epic? A +5 shocking burst vorpal sword, for instance, is what, +12? Which means it is epic and gets the x10 cost modifier, but still won't overcome DR/epic.

Ok I think I'm dumb.

You have answered your own question and gained enlightenment!

But yeah, for clarity's sake, all +6 weapons are epic, but not all epic weapons are +6.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well I'll be damned... sorry about that.

[Spuddles]

Well I'll be damned... sorry about that.

No worries. :smallsmile:

[Talderas]

You have answered your own question and gained enlightenment!

But yeah, for clarity's sake, all +6 weapons are epic, but not all epic weapons are +6.

I personally consider it an oversight mostly because all +1 weapons are magic weapons and all magic weapons are +1 since the rules don't permit things like "Elf Bane Longswords" without first obtaining the +1 enhancement. I also dislike it because martial characters already are bad enough at high levels in comparison to wizards and an enhancement bonus is such a negligible benefit in the grand scheme of things.

It's something definitely worth talking to the DM about and asking if he lets epic weapons bypass epic damage reduction or if you actually have to have a +6.

[ericp65]

Oddly, I had it in my head that "Far Realm" simply referred to Prime worlds/planets that were--you guessed it--far away from whatever passes for "known space" *L* Now I know better. Looks like it's something that characters can learn about through obscure lore, or by exploring the planes, among other means.

[ericp65]

I personally consider it an oversight mostly because all +1 weapons are magic weapons and all magic weapons are +1 since the rules don't permit things like "Elf Bane Longswords" without first obtaining the +1 enhancement. I also dislike it because martial characters already are bad enough at high levels in comparison to wizards and an enhancement bonus is such a negligible benefit in the grand scheme of things.

It's something definitely worth talking to the DM about and asking if he lets epic weapons bypass epic damage reduction or if you actually have to have a +6.

Not all +1 weapons are magic weapons, because masterwork is a thing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not all +1 weapons are magic weapons, because masterwork is a thing.

Actually, yes they are, because +1 refers to an enhancement bonus to hit AND damage, specifically derived from magic. Masterwork weapons are just masterwork weapons.

[Spuddles]

Oddly, I had it in my head that "Far Realm" simply referred to Prime worlds/planets that were--you guessed it--far away from whatever passes for "known space" *L* Now I know better. Looks like it's something that characters can learn about through obscure lore, or by exploring the planes, among other means.

I discovered Lovecraft by accident when I was 12-13. Been into cosmic horror ever sense. One of my favorite feats you can actually get as a bonus feat by making some checks. It's from a dragon magazine and adds a bunch of far realm themed spells to your spell list. It's called Cerebrosis.

[BowStreetRunner]

I discovered Lovecraft by accident when I was 12-13. Been into cosmic horror ever sense. One of my favorite feats you can actually get as a bonus feat by making some checks. It's from a dragon magazine and adds a bunch of far realm themed spells to your spell list. It's called Cerebrosis.

Unfortunately, you can't get true Lovecraft horror with your D&D anymore. I still have a copy somewhere of my 1980 printing of the 1st edition Deities and Demigods complete with the Melnibonéan and...you guessed it...Cthulhu mythos. These two 'pantheons' were removed from the 1981 printing and have, to my knowledge, never had a D&D tie-in since.

[Spuddles]

Unfortunately, you can't get true Lovecraft horror with your D&D anymore. I still have a copy somewhere of my 1980 printing of the 1st edition Deities and Demigods complete with the Melnibonéan and...you guessed it...Cthulhu mythos. These two 'pantheons' were removed from the 1981 printing and have, to my knowledge, never had a D&D tie-in since.

Lords of Madness mentions them, and they are canon Void dwellers in PF. There are even a few slumbering beasties on Golarion. Some cthonic monster is the source of the duegars madness. Don't think it's a legit Lovecraft starspawn, but it certainly has a lovecraftian name.

[Ionbound]

I second Vorpal

"He left it dead and with it's head he went galumphing back"

It fits the theme of a dragon-slaying blade as well, as the Jabberwocky looks quite like a dragon in the picture. Maybe even the original Vorpal Sword for legacy bonuses?

[Gavinfoxx]

The original vorpal sword is a Falchion, though.

[Spuddles]

The original vorpal sword is a Falchion, though.

Because of the crit range or...?

[BowStreetRunner]

The original vorpal sword was the sword in Jabberwocky - the word Vorpal was invented by Lewis Carroll for the poem, although it had no specific meaning. As he stated, "I am afraid I can't explain 'vorpal blade' for you—nor yet 'tulgey wood.'"

[Spuddles]

The original vorpal sword was the sword in Jabberwocky - the word Vorpal was invented by Lewis Carroll for the poem, although it had no specific meaning. As he stated, "I am afraid I can't explain 'vorpal blade' for you—nor yet 'tulgey wood.'"

Frumios bandersnatch, all mimsey were the borograves, snicker-snacker, oh calloo oh callay, etc etc.

I had to memorize that poem in high school.

Bandersnatch is an awesome word.

[BowStreetRunner]

Frumios bandersnatch, all mimsey were the borograves, snicker-snacker, oh calloo oh callay, etc etc.

I had to memorize that poem in high school.

Bandersnatch is an awesome word.

The funniest thing about it for me is that the first paragraph (starting at 'Twas brilig...) was made up of real words that sounded like nonsense, but all the nonsense words were actually mixed into the next five paragraphs.

[Gavinfoxx]

Because of the crit range or...?

Because it's the Conyers Falchion that inspired the poem. In a very real sense, that is The vorpal sword.

http://www.foxtail.nu/bjorn/h_conyers_eng.htm

Also, for those with a love of Lewis Carroll, this is totally a thing:

http://www.borogovegame.com/

SO AWESOME.

[Spuddles]

Because it's the Conyers Falchion that inspired the poem.

http://www.foxtail.nu/bjorn/h_conyers_eng.htm

Also, for those with a love of Lewis Carroll, this is totally a thing:

http://www.borogovegame.com/

SO AWESOME.

Damn bro, always with the links. I love it.

Are you a scholar?

[unseenmage]

Because it's the Conyers Falchion that inspired the poem.

http://www.foxtail.nu/bjorn/h_conyers_eng.htm

You mean based on this?

The Sockburn Worm itself was almost certainly immortalized by Lewis Carroll in his famous nonsense rhyme, "Jabberwocky", as he lived in Croft on Tees as a boy and it was there he wrote the first verse of the rhyme. There's a theory that the legend has its roots in the slaying of some marauding Viking chieftain, who made their raids using dragon-headed longships, but that would be a too mundane an explanation…


"...almost certainly...", indeed.

[TuggyNE]

The funniest thing about it for me is that the first paragraph (starting at 'Twas brilig...) was made up of real words that sounded like nonsense, but all the nonsense words were actually mixed into the next five paragraphs.

Um. The first paragraph was made up of words that sounded like nonsense, because they were nonsense. The explanation Humpty Dumpty gave of what they meant was clearly made up. ("Wabe" means "way beyond/way behind", referring to the plot of ground around a sundial? No. No it does not.)

[BowStreetRunner]

Um. The first paragraph was made up of words that sounded like nonsense, because they were nonsense. The explanation Humpty Dumpty gave of what they meant was clearly made up. ("Wabe" means "way beyond/way behind", referring to the plot of ground around a sundial? No. No it does not.)

Nope. I actually wrote a paper on this one when I was in college back...oh...let's just say it was a few years ago and leave it at that. Anyway, as I recall, the words in the first paragraph mostly predate modern English, but although archaic they did in fact have real meanings. While I no longer recall the original meanings, they did in fact differ greatly from Humpty Dumpty's interpretations.

[ericp65]

Unfortunately, you can't get true Lovecraft horror with your D&D anymore. I still have a copy somewhere of my 1980 printing of the 1st edition Deities and Demigods complete with the Melnibonéan and...you guessed it...Cthulhu mythos. These two 'pantheons' were removed from the 1981 printing and have, to my knowledge, never had a D&D tie-in since.

Yeah, I really, really miss the Melnibonéan material. Scratched the surface of Stormbringer/Elric rpg stuff, but never fully incorporated it into D&D. I'd love to see d20 3.5 renditions of all that. Never had any interest in Lovecraft's work, but I wouldn't be against playing through adventures that included horror/madness from the Great Beyond :)

[ericp65]

Actually, yes they are, because +1 refers to an enhancement bonus to hit AND damage, specifically derived from magic. Masterwork weapons are just masterwork weapons.

I just reread the masterwork rule today, and it said that the weapon is still considered mundane. The +1 is supposed to apply by virtue of the weapon being of superior quality to run-of-the-mill mundane weapons, but no longer applies after the weapon is enchanted with a +1 or better..

Is there a reference I can read that clears all this up?

[ericp65]

I second Vorpal

"He left it dead and with it's head he went galumphing back"

It fits the theme of a dragon-slaying blade as well, as the Jabberwocky looks quite like a dragon in the picture. Maybe even the original Vorpal Sword for legacy bonuses?

Yep, I'll gladly go snicker-snack! Vorpal is in :)

Folded metal is also a given in my book, as that's now katanas were traditionally forged.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yep, I'll gladly go snicker-snack! Vorpal is in :)

Folded metal is also a given in my book, as that's now katanas were traditionally forged.

Only use that improved Vorpal version, though. The default vorpal sucks, and is hideously overpriced for +5.

[ericp65]

Only use that improved Vorpal version, though. The default vorpal sucks, and is hideously overpriced for +5.

So noted. Thanks!

[TuggyNE]

Nope. I actually wrote a paper on this one when I was in college back...oh...let's just say it was a few years ago and leave it at that. Anyway, as I recall, the words in the first paragraph mostly predate modern English, but although archaic they did in fact have real meanings. While I no longer recall the original meanings, they did in fact differ greatly from Humpty Dumpty's interpretations.

Interesting; they must be really really obscure, because I can't find any obvious references online, and (if memory serves) it wasn't mentioned in The Annotated Alice (which did have references for all kinds of other crazy trivia).

[BowStreetRunner]

Interesting; they must be really really obscure, because I can't find any obvious references online, and (if memory serves) it wasn't mentioned in The Annotated Alice (which did have references for all kinds of other crazy trivia).

I actually found the information in an old book. I should mention that, at the time of my research I actually had to use a physical library. HTML had not yet arrived, so I was actually forced to *gasp* walk down to the library and go up into the stacks and actually read through paper books for my research.

You might be astonished at just how much information remains in physical books and has not yet found its way onto the internet yet. (Not to mention how much information is lost to history entirely - never committed to any sort of record ever.)

As to the reference, unfortunately my memory does not serve to recall a title. I stumbled upon it while looking for material for my paper and thought it sufficiently interesting to warrant mention. All I recall is the author explained the entire first verse word-for-word taken from middle or old English, or perhaps one of the root languages such as Anglo-Saxon or Celtic. Whether Lewis Carroll ever verified the author's claims I cannot say. It is certainly possible the connections were in fact accidental, considering the antecedents of the modern English language. It may simply be that, in attempting to invent words, Carroll inadvertently used words that had existed before of which he was simply unaware. The lack of uniform standards and conventions for spelling at the time make this even more possible. I have seen several arguments regarding the origins of some of the words introduced by Tolkien's works that could not agree on whether he had borrowed an archaic word or if the similarity was entirely coincidental. (Personally, I am entirely convinced that the arguments claiming to have found earlier references to Orcs written as Orkes and living in the sea actually refers to Orcas - or killer whales.)

[ericp65]

There's been a claim that Carroll wrote entire sentences as anagrams. The rearranged lines are racy in spots. Not sure if it was intentional, or if someone just had too much time on his/her hands.

[BowStreetRunner]

There's been a claim that Carroll wrote entire sentences as anagrams. The rearranged lines are racy in spots. Not sure if it was intentional, or if someone just had too much time on his/her hands.

Racy anagrams!?! I have my copy of The Complete Works of Lewis Carroll in front of me (not kidding, really). I need page numbers!

[ericp65]

Racy anagrams!?! I have my copy of The Complete Works of Lewis Carroll in front of me (not kidding, really). I need page numbers!

I don't recall where I read it (maybe searching the 'net would yield some joy), and the only line I recall that was "decoded" in that way reads "And masturbate the hog more!" :smallredface:

[ericp65]

Trying to decide between starmetal and Hizagkuur for the blade's material.

These look like great properties to apply: pure ore, razor sharp, resilient, blood groove, acid washed, folded metal, dwarvencraft. But is it overkill (pun intended!) to have razor sharp and vorpal on the same weapon? I want to include the alternate vorpal rules I've seen posted, and not the published version.

[Gildedragon]

Hizagkuur; its more interesting than it's very hard.

[BowStreetRunner]

Hizagkuur; its more interesting than it's very hard.

I was under the impression you could not make magic items from Hizagkuur - by it's very nature it reflects any attempt to enchant it back upon the caster. :smallconfused:

[Gavinfoxx]

I was under the impression you could not make magic items from Hizagkuur - by it's very nature it reflects any attempt to enchant it back upon the caster. :smallconfused:

Wherever did you hear that? That isn't in the 3.Xe description...

[TuggyNE]

I was under the impression you could not make magic items from Hizagkuur - by it's very nature it reflects any attempt to enchant it back upon the caster. :smallconfused:

Wait, does that mean you can use it to enchant Monks?

Fakeedit: bah, dream dashed already.

[unseenmage]

Wherever did you hear that? That isn't in the 3.Xe description...

Magic of Faerun page 179
"Hizagkuur can never be
used in a magic item that uses cold effects, such as a frost
or icy burst weapon.
Hizagkuur weighs the"

[ericp65]

Magic of Faerun page 179
"Hizagkuur can never be
used in a magic item that uses cold effects, such as a frost
or icy burst weapon.
Hizagkuur weighs the"

Wyrmcleaver doesn't have any cold effects, so no problems there.

[BowStreetRunner]

Magic of Faerun page 179
"Hizagkuur can never be
used in a magic item that uses cold effects, such as a frost
or icy burst weapon.
Hizagkuur weighs the"

There is another version of Hizagkuur floating around the net, and since I don't play with Forgotten Realms I did not realize that Magic of Faerun was the original source. The other version (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/swordspointe/items/metals/hizagkuur.html) makes the stuff reflect all magic. There is no mention of cold effects.

[ericp65]

There is another version of Hizagkuur floating around the net, and since I don't play with Forgotten Realms I did not realize that Magic of Faerun was the original source. The other version (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/swordspointe/items/metals/hizagkuur.html) makes the stuff reflect all magic. There is no mention of cold effects.

Was not aware of that. When in doubt, I choose Realms-based material. That's where all my characters live.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does it have to be a Katana? Europe had a very similar sword, yaknow. You don't have to use the, like, three Japans that FR has. You could use one of the two Germanies.

I'll just leave this here.. (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm)

[ericp65]

Does it have to be a Katana? Europe had a very similar sword, yaknow. You don't have to use the, like, three Japans that FR has. You could use one of the two Germanies.

I'll just leave this here.. (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm)

Yes, it absolutely has to be a katana. I've statted it out as a great scimitar. The weapon's owner received the weapon in Kara-Tur.

Edit: The DM specified that the weapon was a katana when my character received it.

[ericp65]

Weapon Crystals that look good to me for the weapon: Acid Assault (greater), Witchlight Reservoir (blood), and Truedeath (greater).

The owner will carry a small assortment of wands, too, for the wand chamber. Wraithstrike is in, and I'll see what else would be appropriate.

[Gavinfoxx]

The weapon's owner received the weapon in Kara-Tur.

I believe that could make it from the equivalents to China, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

The Japan-equivalents are... I'll just leave this here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172197

It could be a Dadao. Ie, 'big knife', which is also what kriegsmesser translates to...

[Talya]

Yes, it absolutely has to be a katana. I've statted it out as a great scimitar. The weapon's owner received the weapon in Kara-Tur.



http://www.kobudovenlo.nl/images/HumorImages/CutThroughTank.jpg

Of course, a magical epic katana probably CAN cut through a tank.

[Gavinfoxx]

This one, unless it is made of Starmetal, only cuts through tanks on the second hit. Because Shadowstrike then sets it to overcome DR/Adamantine, which is how D&D simulates 'this thing which you are trying to cut is made of rigid, unyielding, tough material'.

Well, that and Hardness. I suppose you would have to make it out of Starmetal to always get through things with Hardness. Anyone know any ways to bypass Hardness?

[Gildedragon]

Metaline augment crystal
Or a belt of the stone dragon

[ericp65]

http://www.kobudovenlo.nl/images/HumorImages/CutThroughTank.jpg

Of course, a magical epic katana probably CAN cut through a tank.

Maybe! They used to test for quality by how many dead bodies stacked up it could cleave.

[ericp65]

This one, unless it is made of Starmetal, only cuts through tanks on the second hit. Because Shadowstrike then sets it to overcome DR/Adamantine, which is how D&D simulates 'this thing which you are trying to cut is made of rigid, unyielding, tough material'.

Well, that and Hardness. I suppose you would have to make it out of Starmetal to always get through things with Hardness. Anyone know any ways to bypass Hardness?

At the risk of embarrassing myself, my guess is that hardness can't be bypassed.

[Gavinfoxx]

At the risk of embarrassing myself, my guess is that hardness can't be bypassed.

Well, Adamantine (40 hp/in, hardness 20) ignores hardness < 20. Thus Starmetal does as well. But Glassteel and Obdurium and materials strengthened to have Hardness of at least 20 don't bypass hardness < 20, oddly.

[Gildedragon]

Hardness can be bypassed: mountain hammer maneuvers ignore hardness and DR. In going to epic levels you could have all the MH maneuvers available.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tome of Battle to the Rescue!

The character which wants to melee in epic... he is using Psionics and/or Tome of Battle and/or Buff Spells, yes?

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

You have read that, and your players know that by Epic level, you do need some magic (more the better) to be competitive? I would even go so far as to say a Tome of Battle Only character that doesn't have innate magic (including not using any of the supernatural abilities, for example) wouldn't be competitive in Epic.

[ericp65]

Tome of Battle to the Rescue!

The character which wants to melee in epic... he is using Psionics and/or Tome of Battle and/or Buff Spells, yes?

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

You have read that, and your players know that by Epic level, you do need some magic (more the better) to be competitive? I would even go so far as to say a Tome of Battle Only character that doesn't have innate magic (including not using any of the supernatural abilities, for example) wouldn't be competitive in Epic.

The character is my 46th level drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279775), who does have four levels of Warblade. He has no arcane spellcasting class levels, but does have a level of Cleric, and two levels of Totemist. I'm still rebuilding him. Recalling now that clerics in the Realms must be "specialty priests" of a given deity, I suppose the most appropriate patron would be Torm or Helm. Not exactly sure which to choose.

[ericp65]

Well, Adamantine (40 hp/in, hardness 20) ignores hardness < 20. Thus Starmetal does as well. But Glassteel and Obdurium and materials strengthened to have Hardness of at least 20 don't bypass hardness < 20, oddly.

After going back and forth between starmetal and Hizagkuur, I chose the latter.

[Gavinfoxx]

Judging by your other thread, you need a whole lot of help in choosing feats... Like, basically all of those feats need to be reworked...

[ericp65]

Judging by your other thread, you need a whole lot of help in choosing feats... Like, basically all of those feats need to be reworked...

I couldn't agree more. That feat selection was from the previously written character, who had mostly Fighter levels, plus Knight Protector. Now that I've had help in rebuilding his level progression, feat selection needs a complete overhaul!

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey EricP.. as a thing to help you in Epic Levels...

Here's an interesting thread for you. Remember, this is without Epic Spellcasting being legal in the game:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286797

Especially read Tippy's posts and the replies associated with them!

[DeusMortuusEst]

IMO these are worth looking into: Sudden stunning (DMG II) and Shadow Striking (ToM).

Shadow striking in particular, as you don't have to worry about DR ever again.

EDIT: Aurorum, a special material from BOED is also pretty sweet.

[ericp65]

Excellent, all the help is most helpful :)

[Gavinfoxx]

IMO these are worth looking into: Sudden stunning (DMG II) and Shadow Striking (ToM).

Shadow striking in particular, as you don't have to worry about DR ever again.

EDIT: Aurorum, a special material from BOED is also pretty sweet.

Wow have you ever been ninja'd... lol...

[DeusMortuusEst]

Wow have you ever been ninja'd... lol...

Haven't read the thread besides the OP *shrug*

EDIT: And after going through it (quickly, so I might have missed something) only Shadow Striking has been mentioned before. So yea...

[Gavinfoxx]

Sudden Stunning and Aurorum were mentioned in the weaponry handbooks that he has been linked to.

[ericp65]

I think I've got enough great suggestions for this weapon, so now to edit the item sheet (I almost wrote "character sheet" *L*) :smallbiggrin:

[ericp65]

Of course, the blade isn't the only weapon in its wielder's arsenal, and he can always use it with both hands, rather than always pair it with the accompanying wakizashi. His other main weapons have been a shortsword +2 luck blade (that maybe he should have improved or get rid of?), and a mighty composite longbow +5, each intelligent, and with a handful of abilities (the bow was made to defeat/slay CE foes by phantasmal killer). The more I look at these weapons, the less they impress me.

[Vaz]

According to the A+EG, Feats are worth 10K+5-10K per prerequisite as a Weapon Enchantment Ability thing. Weapon Supremacy, for example?

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you looked at this yet for ideas?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

And how come the bow isn't based off of Hank's Bow?

[ericp65]

Have you looked at this yet for ideas?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

And how come the bow isn't based off of Hank's Bow?

Checking the link now. Thanks!

When the bow was created, I had no knowledge of Hank's Bow. That's fairly new info for me, so I'll take another gander at the details when I get ready to overhaul Sav's bow (previously named "Mighty Virtue" but needs a better name).

The rest of the explanation is that I created some of the items using only the DMG, and some using that plus the ELH. I didn't have access to many other volumes until fairly recently.

[Gavinfoxx]

Some questions you need to answer, regarding the Force ability (MIC) and Hank's Energy Bow.

1.) Does it overcome all DR except the Force Dragon's DR/Force?
2.) Can it be shot from without, into an area of antimagic field or null magic zone?
3.) Can it shoot successfully through a wind wall?
4.) Does it overcome SR automatically?

Personally, I would do some writeup of the 'Force' option that is +2, and a 'Greater Force' that is an extra +1 for +3. And I'd make the Greater Force require 'Orb of Force', not 'Magic Missile', as the base option, and have the greater version do some of the fancy things like that.

[ericp65]

Some questions you need to answer, regarding the Force ability (MIC) and Hank's Energy Bow.

1.) Does it overcome all DR except the Force Dragon's DR/Force?
2.) Can it be shot from without, into an area of antimagic field or null magic zone?
3.) Can it shoot successfully through a wind wall?
4.) Does it overcome SR automatically?

Personally, I would do some writeup of the 'Force' option that is +2, and a 'Greater Force' that is an extra +1 for +3. And I'd make the Greater Force require 'Orb of Force', not 'Magic Missile', as the base option, and have the greater version do some of the fancy things like that.

I'll keep these points in mind as I further modify the bow. Thanks!

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh yes...

5.)does it make its own arrows, like hank's bow, or does it just sheathe arrows in energy?
6.) Does it make the bow automatically adjust to a particular strength bonus?

[ericp65]

Oh yes...

5.)does it make its own arrows, like hank's bow, or does it just sheathe arrows in energy?
6.) Does it make the bow automatically adjust to a particular strength bonus?

I've added both those properties, identical to Hank's Bow, and the wielder being able to apply Power Attack to shots, if he/she has that feat.