Best way to Teleport/Plane Shift very big things?=>Protecting a Big Ship

[Nettlekid]

Long story short, I want to be a cool nonevil pirate who flies a House Lyrandar airship through the cosmos. I've found the Windwright Captain PrC from the Explorers Handbook, which is ideal for piloting the airship, and it has 3/5 arcane casting progression, which would allow for 9th level spells. My endgoal is for a 21st level campaign, which would rather necessitate 9th level spells for protection. Now, I know, having a Colossal airship at all times is asking for trouble, it will be destroyed easily, there's nothing it can do that Teleport can't do better, and it's just a bad idea in general. But you have to admit. It's cool. I'd love to fly from world to world on an airship. But it's really big. And I don't know how to get it across planar boundaries.

The best means I can think of to get this giant ship from plane to plane is with the Planeshifter PrC, which allows you to take spheres of the planes (100 ft/level in radius) and switch them to another plane. That's certainly enough to bring the ship. But unfortunately, that PrC is 5/10 casting, which is...terrible. What's worse is that Windwright Captain can be first taken at level 8, and Planeshifter requires 5th level arcane spells, so...Even if the skills worked out, Wizard 7/Windwright Captain 5/Planeshifter 9 is the best I could do, which ends up with a mere Wizard 16 casting, and missing out on the Planeshifter's capstone of a demiplane. Now, if there's no way to make this work the way I want it to, to be cool and still effective, then I'll drop the idea entirely. I don't think being a pilot is worth it without Windwright Captain, I don't think I can get the ship where I want it without Planeshifter, and I can't think of any accelerated casting classes that let me get 9s that early. But I do hope someone can think of a way to make it work.

[Nettlekid]

Also, how best can I defend this flying airship from being shot down by dragons and wizards and Balors, oh my? I remember reading somewhere about...I can't quite recall, someone built some sort of flying cube fortress that was absolutely indestructible? I'd love to see some of those defenses. Also, where are the rules for those self-resetting magic traps that this airship can use as magic cannons? Basically, any and all tips for an airship appreciated.

I think for the build, I'm going to give up on the Planeshifter, and just use an Epic Spell for it instead. *shrug*

[Jack_Simth]

Stronghold Builder's Guide. 3.0, but it's got rules for making the thing out of Prismatic Walls (which will discourage it being shot down, but not stop it), making it fly, teleport, and plane shift, and so on. Also includes a feat for mitigating the costs of doing all this.

[Arc_knight25]

As for your Planeshifter, I would say team up with one of your other players. You be the Windwright Captian/Wizard. Setting you up to be the face of the ship and your buddy will be the Navigator. Fill in the other roles of the ship with other party members. Firstmate would be your meat sheild (Make him feel needed)

As for Defending, you'll have 2 casters(if you have your Navigator Planeshifter). Let the shenanigans fly.

For Materials to use for construction and such I think DMG's, MIC, and try Hero's of Battle, may have somethings for defences for you, or at least ideas for such.

[Nettlekid]

Excellent! That's exactly what I was looking for. Awesome, one Plane-Shifting Teleporting Airship, away! And wow, that Landlord feat nets you quite a packet. It's perfect, because my DM wants us to be some sort of nobility or a wealthy, notable figure, and it makes sense that such a figure would be a Landlord.

Now, tell me if this is really stupid, but...To defend the craft...Would 48 Lyres of Building do the trick? The craft is smaller than 300 feet in any direction from the center, of course. If I had like, an Unseen Servant or mechanized statue, or even did it myself, could I strum a Lyre every half hour and protect the ship from anything forever? 48 Lyres of Building would cost over 600,000 gold (assuming no discount for buying in bulk...) but it stands to reason that the cost would again go toward the Landlord feat, since it's there for defense, as would a castle lined with Prismatic Walls.

[Jack_Simth]

Now, tell me if this is really stupid, but...To defend the craft...Would 48 Lyres of Building do the trick? The craft is smaller than 300 feet in any direction from the center, of course. If I had like, an Unseen Servant or mechanized statue, or even did it myself, could I strum a Lyre every half hour and protect the ship from anything forever? 48 Lyres of Building would cost over 600,000 gold (assuming no discount for buying in bulk...) but it stands to reason that the cost would again go toward the Landlord feat, since it's there for defense, as would a castle lined with Prismatic Walls.
Theoretically. Mind you, the effect could probably be dispelled separately from attacking the ship, and a Lyre of Building doesn't have all that high of a caster level. Oh yes, and you'll need some form of construct to play it, or multiple players, seeing as how strumming a chord every 30 minutes doesn't exactly give you time to sleep.

[Vaz]

I might be mistaken, but there was a Planes shifting pirate in the Acolyte of the Skin entry. Might be worth looking into. AFPC at the moment so its nit easy to checl. Or type for yhat matter.

[Nettlekid]

Theoretically. Mind you, the effect could probably be dispelled separately from attacking the ship, and a Lyre of Building doesn't have all that high of a caster level. Oh yes, and you'll need some form of construct to play it, or multiple players, seeing as how strumming a chord every 30 minutes doesn't exactly give you time to sleep.

Hm. If I had a Spellblade Dagger or something affixed to the prow of the ship, keyed to Greater Dispel Magic, would that prevent it from being targeted? Or would the caster of the effect have to target the Lyre itself, which would be a lot harder to do if the Lyre was within the ship.

Hm, speaking of which, what SPECIFIC spells should I be really worried about? If general damage spells are guarded by the Lyre, there are still those like Dispel Magic and its kin. I'm going to assume no MDJ, because that's just rude. How can I better fortify my airship against things like teleporting onto it without barring myself from teleporting on?



I might be mistaken, but there was a Planes shifting pirate in the Acolyte of the Skin entry. Might be worth looking into. AFPC at the moment so its nit easy to checl. Or type for yhat matter.

Not seeing it at the moment. Let me know if you get to your computer and find it.

[Clistenes]

Use the Guardian Ship from Dragon Magazine 333 (an intelligent construct ship) and give her a magic item that allows to cast Plane Shift ; or, for added awesomenes, add items that would allow her to use Greater Teleport and Overland Fly, (she can wear two rings, a pendant, a hat, a mask...etc.).

Since the ship's cargo is load to her, she can teleport carrying it with her.

[Krobar]

For my last ship, I used a Planar Helm, Everfull Sails, a Cloud Keel, and a Major Spelljamming Helm.

Note: A Planar Helm takes the form of the ship's wheel, while the Spelljamming Helm, though it's called a helm, takes the form of a chair.


I also did a bunch of other stuff to it (Hallowed, Forbiddance, some Wishes to make the ship immune to certain types of attacks, mithril plating (hardened via the Hardening spell), all kinds of stuff, but this is a good place to start.

One thing it didn't do was teleport.

[Spuddles]

Animate your ship with Animate Objects. Permanency it. Now it is a creature you can include in teleport, and thanks to its enormous carrying capacity, you can take a lot of stuff with you.

Mind that a colossul creature counts as a lot of medium creatures.

Haunt Shift will make an undead creature possess an item and be able to animate it. If you were to haunt shift a 9th level necropoliton psion, your ship could teleport itself, people on it (if they entered a bag or hole of holding prior to dimensional jumps), as well as shoot lasers and deploy defensive maneuvers.

A psionic version of Wings of Cover would be pretty much closest thing to a force field you could get.

[Nettlekid]

If I were to cover the entire ship (except for like a 10 ft cube) with Forbiddance, so creatures can't teleport on (except into that cube, which will be monitored and probably closed off when not in use), could the ship still use its Teleport and Plane Shift abilities? If like, the Forbiddance was cast so that it lined the inside of the hull of the ship, could the hull could teleport and then bring what was inside with it, even a Forbiddanced zone?

Although, unlike a demiplane where teleportation is the only way in, I guess with a ship that you can just fly to, Forbiddance isn't quite as important. You could even teleport above the ship and the Forbiddanced zone, and then drop into it, bypassing the ward. In that case, since all the inanimate parts of the ship are completely protected (thanks to the Lyre of Building), I guess in the event of a siege all the crew can retreat into quarters and let enemies tire themselves out attacking the invulnerable hull. So, two questions. One, is there a way to make doors disappear? Not just via illusion, but actually like "There is no door there anymore." If the doors could disappear and the wall was unbreakable, all the crew would be safe. So the only remaining vulnerable creature is the Fire Elemental bound to the giant ring. How do I protect that?

[Jack_Simth]

If I were to cover the entire ship (except for like a 10 ft cube) with Forbiddance, so creatures can't teleport on (except into that cube, which will be monitored and probably closed off when not in use), could the ship still use its Teleport and Plane Shift abilities? If like, the Forbiddance was cast so that it lined the inside of the hull of the ship, could the hull could teleport and then bring what was inside with it, even a Forbiddanced zone?

Unspecified in RAW. However, if your DM rules that you can't just drag the forbiddance with you, if you've arranged for your ship to be treated as a creature, well, Forbiddance permits SR, and is a 6th level spell... which means Greater Spell Immunity can take care of it. However, if you do that, the ship is no longer "inanimate construction" for the purposes of the Lyre of Building.


Although, unlike a demiplane where teleportation is the only way in, I guess with a ship that you can just fly to, Forbiddance isn't quite as important. You could even teleport above the ship and the Forbiddanced zone, and then drop into it, bypassing the ward. In that case, since all the inanimate parts of the ship are completely protected (thanks to the Lyre of Building), I guess in the event of a siege all the crew can retreat into quarters and let enemies tire themselves out attacking the invulnerable hull. So, two questions. One, is there a way to make doors disappear? Not just via illusion, but actually like "There is no door there anymore." If the doors could disappear and the wall was unbreakable, all the crew would be safe.Try barring the door, rather than locking it. Sure, you could do something fancy with Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron and a Disintegrate later, but but the bar on a door is still inanimate construction, and as a bar, it can't be picked. Make sure to use three bars (knock), and have people ready to put them back if they're suddenly undone.


So the only remaining vulnerable creature is the Fire Elemental bound to the giant ring. How do I protect that?
Same way you'd protect the fighter. Buff him up with spells.

[Phelix-Mu]

One, is there a way to make doors disappear?

Check out the passwall and phase door spells in the PHB. Also viable, if it's stone wall, use xorn movement (Spell Compendium)/earthglide.

[Marnath]

How wide is this ship? Gate can create a portal 20 feet in diameter, and the destination is exactly where you wanted it to be, not off target like plane shift. Sudden widen could arguably get you a 30 foot diameter portal if you needed it.

[Nettlekid]

Ah, Phase Door is perfect. If I specify "All crew and friendly allies of the ship," then anyone I want could rush in and out while all hostiles (like a rampaging dragon on the deck) are stuck outside.

I guess, for the Elemental, could it retreat into its Khyber Dragonshard for safety? If I'm reading correctly, the House Lyrandar airships are actually lighter than air and float naturally, so the ship would still float (but not fly or move around) even without the propulsion. Dragon jumps on board, Elemental hides, crew rushes through the Phase Doors, someone's playing a Lyre of Building, and so the dragon just roars and smashes about to no avail until it either leaves or I, the ship's captain, step on deck to take care of it on my own turf.

I like this! I love blanket protections, like what the Lyre of Building offers. It clears things up nicely. Now, what weapon and armor should I have? My main (only, pretty much) offense is spells, so the weapon would either be purely decorative or have buffing enchantments. In either case, I wouldn't want it to be too expensive. For the armor, I think Soulfire and Heavy Fortification are two good enchantments to get, but would there be better? Going for the Captainly image, after all.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, Phase Door is perfect. If I specify "All crew and friendly allies of the ship," then anyone I want could rush in and out while all hostiles (like a rampaging dragon on the deck) are stuck outside.


You might want to reflect on a backup plan for the lyre of building. It does make noise, from what I recall, and a well-placed silence might nix the whole thing.

But for the phase door, consider a self-resetting magical trap to trigger the spell again with the same parameters when it runs out. Not sure if the permanent phase door solves the limited use problem, but if it doesn't, there are other ways to do so.

[Nettlekid]

If I keep the Lyres in the center of the ship, next to all the other important stuff (maybe the Kyber Dragonshard, among others. I don't know what goes into a skyship) then hopefully no enemy will be able to actually get to them in order to destroy them or silence them. Also, the description seems to say that you play a few notes and then it works for 30 minutes, so I don't think Silence would have an effect except for those few notes at the half-hour mark. But either way, hopefully it's a moot point.

I would assume a Permanent Phase Door is unlimited use, because if not, then it wouldn't be permanent. And those are cheap enough to get quite a few Permanencied.

[Phelix-Mu]

Beware sailing into dead magic zones and planes with impeded magic or the like. Permanent things wink out permanently, IIRC. Might be worth some kind of special navigational device to do some kind of commune with nature or some other divination spell/device that would ping off of dead magic zones or the like. I don't know about other DMs, but those places without normally-functioning magic are a natural feature of my world, and are found in various places.

[Nettlekid]

Hm. That would be a pain, but it's unlikely that I'd take an ostentatious airship into a dead magic zone anyway. And in the worst case scenario, I'll get a Permanent Flame on a 10-foot pole at the bow, and if that winks out unexpectedly, I'll go away from that area.

[Nettlekid]

Okay, the Lyres of Building thing was a stupid idea, I'm now realizing. I thought it was good because I liked the blanket protection, but I don't think I'm willing to spend over 600,000 gold on JUST LYRES OF BUILDING. It would probably be easier to have the ship repaired magically (maybe by resetting traps of Repair Critical Damage) than it would to protect it like that. But what other defenses could I use?

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, the Lyres of Building thing was a stupid idea, I'm now realizing. I thought it was good because I liked the blanket protection, but I don't think I'm willing to spend over 600,000 gold on JUST LYRES OF BUILDING. It would probably be easier to have the ship repaired magically (maybe by resetting traps of Repair Critical Damage) than it would to protect it like that. But what other defenses could I use?

I would strongly advise a quick perusal of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. Specifically the wall materials. Build your boat out of, say, Prismatic Walls, layered with Walls of Force, and you'll do fine.

[Nettlekid]

I would strongly advise a quick perusal of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. Specifically the wall materials. Build your boat out of, say, Prismatic Walls, layered with Walls of Force, and you'll do fine.

Do you think so? I'm hoping that this lasts even in Epic levels (though my DM is very non-optimizing, and is probably using very few elements of casters outside of Core, so I have a good idea of what to expect.) With a Wall of Force and Prismatic Walls, it wouldn't be *too* hard for a dedicated spellcaster to prepare the appropriate spells to take apart the Prismatic Wall, and an extra Disintegrate for the Wall of Force. Plus I think it would look garish.

[Jack_Simth]

Do you think so? I'm hoping that this lasts even in Epic levels (though my DM is very non-optimizing, and is probably using very few elements of casters outside of Core, so I have a good idea of what to expect.) With a Wall of Force and Prismatic Walls, it wouldn't be *too* hard for a dedicated spellcaster to prepare the appropriate spells to take apart the Prismatic Wall, and an extra Disintegrate for the Wall of Force. Plus I think it would look garish.
It wouldn't be too hard to do so, no... but the wall-type Prismatic walls in SBG regenerate after a while if they're disabled in that manner, and it takes like seven spells to get through the silly things. Layer it with something else - like, say, Wall of Stone - to deal with the garishness (and the occasional opening disjunction).

Really, though, if your DM wants it dead, it's dead. If he wants it holed, it's holed. The best defence is him forgetting you have it. Or convincing him not to target it - make it out of something reasonably durable, like, say, hewn stone - and just repair it with Wall of Stone spells as needed. Yes, he'll get through. Oh well, you'd have to fight them eventually anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you think so? I'm hoping that this lasts even in Epic levels (though my DM is very non-optimizing, and is probably using very few elements of casters outside of Core, so I have a good idea of what to expect.) With a Wall of Force and Prismatic Walls, it wouldn't be *too* hard for a dedicated spellcaster to prepare the appropriate spells to take apart the Prismatic Wall, and an extra Disintegrate for the Wall of Force. Plus I think it would look garish.

That is why you add an AMF to the exterior of the Walls of Force/Prismatic Walls. They need to rip that down first to be able to start destroying the walls.

[Nettlekid]

It wouldn't be too hard to do so, no... but the wall-type Prismatic walls in SBG regenerate after a while if they're disabled in that manner, and it takes like seven spells to get through the silly things. Layer it with something else - like, say, Wall of Stone - to deal with the garishness (and the occasional opening disjunction).

Really, though, if your DM wants it dead, it's dead. If he wants it holed, it's holed. The best defence is him forgetting you have it. Or convincing him not to target it - make it out of something reasonably durable, like, say, hewn stone - and just repair it with Wall of Stone spells as needed. Yes, he'll get through. Oh well, you'd have to fight them eventually anyway.

I doubt I'll have to worry about Disjunction, especially with this DM, but in general our gaming group agrees not to use it. And true, while if the DM wants to take in down then he will, what I want is to make something strong enough so it's can get attacked, isn't immediately destroyed, and the party reacts to the threat.


That is why you add an AMF to the exterior of the Walls of Force/Prismatic Walls. They need to rip that down first to be able to start destroying the walls.

Now that would make a good defense for the walls, but how do I: 1) Shape the AMFs so they form around the ship, as opposed to just a series of AMF bubbles all over, and 2) Get like, AMF shells around the Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls such that the walls are covered by the AMF (and as such the attacker will need to get through the AMF before getting to the Walls) without stopping anyone on the ship from using their own magic?

[Spuddles]

Have you given any consideration to making your ship into a creature?

[Nettlekid]

Have you given any consideration to making your ship into a creature?

Thought about it, but I don't really like the feeling of it so much. Now, living ship is cool, sure. But this already has the Huge Fire Elemental bound to it, which gives it a spirit and makes it kind of like Howl's Moving Castle. Which is really cool. To make the ship alive too (and I assume you'd have to make the ship a creature separately from the Elemental) just has too many "things" in the ship.

[Spuddles]

Thought about it, but I don't really like the feeling of it so much. Now, living ship is cool, sure. But this already has the Huge Fire Elemental bound to it, which gives it a spirit and makes it kind of like Howl's Moving Castle. Which is really cool. To make the ship alive too (and I assume you'd have to make the ship a creature separately from the Elemental) just has too many "things" in the ship.

I can see that.
At the same time, how cool would it be to have an undead pirate captain as the ship's "helm"? Or Jarvis, or the Star Trek computer?

Technically, you wouldn't need the bound elemental if the ship was a creature.

[Nettlekid]

I can see that.
At the same time, how cool would it be to have an undead pirate captain as the ship's "helm"? Or Jarvis, or the Star Trek computer?

Technically, you wouldn't need the bound elemental if the ship was a creature.

True, I wouldn't, but I don't want to get into the fiddly mechanics of using a House Lyrandar airship without the elemental...especially since I don't know if it would still fly. And yeah, the self-run ship is quite cool, but since I started looking at the elemental thing I've gotten my heart set on a "Calcifer" type arrangement. After all, without the elemental, there's no excuse to have the huge ring of fire surrounding the ship.

[TypoNinja]

Now that would make a good defense for the walls, but how do I: 1) Shape the AMFs so they form around the ship, as opposed to just a series of AMF bubbles all over, and 2) Get like, AMF shells around the Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls such that the walls are covered by the AMF (and as such the attacker will need to get through the AMF before getting to the Walls) without stopping anyone on the ship from using their own magic?

The Stronghold Builders guidebook rules for enchanting walls actually is designed for this, the magic only operations on the outside surface, and people standing upon the walls are usually unaffected, I think a wall with a built in Cloud Kill is the example. So if you tied AMF's to the hull, it'd only point 'out'.

Downside, cheap it is not.

[Nettlekid]

The Stronghold Builders guidebook rules for enchanting walls actually is designed for this, the magic only operations on the outside surface, and people standing upon the walls are usually unaffected, I think a wall with a built in Cloud Kill is the example. So if you tied AMF's to the hull, it'd only point 'out'.

Downside, cheap it is not.

Hmm, cheap or not, it might be good. I've been going through the SBG, but I can't find anything about antimagic walls. Can you guide me to the page? I can't Ctrl+F on my copy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit

And this:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19857754/Living_in_a_Flying_Box...

??

[Nettlekid]

I have not! And I was looking for that Flying Box, I've been trying to find it for ages.

[Gavinfoxx]

It seems that you aren't worried about a budget, so the second option is more what you are likely looking at...

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, now, my initial plan to defend the ship was with Lyres of Building, but since it only worked for 30 minutes a day, I needed 48 of them. Which was 624,000 gold. What have they done to extrapolate that 30 minutes per day into at-will for 65,000 from 13,000?

[Spuddles]

You can play a lyre of building forever, as long as you meet the DC18 perform check.

[Nettlekid]

But it only requires a few notes to start the protective effect, and that only lasts for a half hour.

[Spuddles]

But it only requires a few notes to start the protective effect, and that only lasts for a half hour.

Oh you are absolutely correct. My apologies.

[TypoNinja]

But it only requires a few notes to start the protective effect, and that only lasts for a half hour.

What kinds of fights are you getting into that last more than half an hour?

You are also mobile, if you see more than a half dozen serious threats in a day your DM just hates you.


Hmm, cheap or not, it might be good. I've been going through the SBG, but I can't find anything about antimagic walls. Can you guide me to the page? I can't Ctrl+F on my copy.

Starting on page 38, Wall Augmentations. It doesn't actually say its a general rule, its buried in each augmentation description "When creating this augmentation choose one face of the wall".

There's no default anti-magic wall, but all the rules for creating one (enchanting wondrous architecture) are in the book.

Something like StormWrack might go into greater detail on enchanting ships in general, but considering D&D explicitly treats large vehicles as mobile structures SHBG rules are technically correct too.

[Nettlekid]

What kinds of fights are you getting into that last more than half an hour?

You are also mobile, if you see more than a half dozen serious threats in a day your DM just hates you.



Starting on page 38, Wall Augmentations. It doesn't actually say its a general rule, its buried in each augmentation description "When creating this augmentation choose one face of the wall".

There's no default anti-magic wall, but all the rules for creating one (enchanting wondrous architecture) are in the book.

Something like StormWrack might go into greater detail on enchanting ships in general, but considering D&D explicitly treats large vehicles as mobile structures SHBG rules are technically correct too.

I guess I wouldn't need it for that long, but I'd like to have the option of full protection. If we have to sail through Hell for a little while, for example, it might be nice to be warded.
Ah, I see that about Wall Augmentations. I don't think a one-way Antimagic Wall would work quite the same way, though.
And Stormwrack is very on-the-water-ship-based, so it's got a lot of "avoiding rapids" and "dealing with waves" and "if another ship shoots its cannons at you" and things like that. Not so much for defense, more like defense-by-offense.

[Jack_Simth]

I guess I wouldn't need it for that long, but I'd like to have the option of full protection. If we have to sail through Hell for a little while, for example, it might be nice to be warded.
Ah, I see that about Wall Augmentations. I don't think a one-way Antimagic Wall would work quite the same way, though.
And Stormwrack is very on-the-water-ship-based, so it's got a lot of "avoiding rapids" and "dealing with waves" and "if another ship shoots its cannons at you" and things like that. Not so much for defense, more like defense-by-offense.
To be fair, killing the other guy first after it's clear he is trying to kill you is one of the more time-honoured ways of defending one's self.

[TypoNinja]

To be fair, killing the other guy first after it's clear he is trying to kill you is one of the more time-honoured ways of defending one's self.

How am I gonna stop some mean mother hubbard from tearing me a structurally superfluous new behind?

The answer? Use a gun.

And if that don't work. Use more gun.