What do you think of these Korean 'elementary student laws'?

[meto30]

Hello Playground, I've recently come across a set of rules supposedly posted by the teachers in an elementary school in Korea. Inside the spoilers is the original photo, and below it is a translation.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dLQjEjRWHCk/UaRLqa3kcSI/AAAAAAAA1tw/eESTZTH8k_g/w680-h510-no/1369638810_67AIcB9D_4854086140.jpg

6th grade common school regulations

1. You may not use the hallways unless you're going to the restrooms.
2. When outside the classrooms, you may not
-- gather in groups of more than 2,
-- meet another for more than 30 seconds,
-- talk for longer than 2 sentences.
3. You may not run in the hallways.
4. You must submit your phone to your teacher, which you will get back when classes are over for the day. You may never touch someone else's phone without the owner's express permission.
5. You may not touch things not belonging to you. Do not do anything that can garner suspicion.
6. Do not lie.
7. Participate in the School Abuse Questionnaires every month.
-(verbal, physical, pranks that may disturb others)
- in case of an actual case of abuse.... photo cut off


Apparently, this is the response of the school governing board to the rise of school violence and abuse cases in the country in the last few years. Some people over here points out that this particular set of rules may be due to a severe case recently occurring at the school in question. However, many people (including myself) believe that these restrictions are excessive, and more to the point, are utterly ineffective in stemming further cases of violence among students.

What do you make of these? Do you think these regulations are odd? Do you think these regulations would accomplish the mission of preventing further cases of peer abuse?



EDIT: I forgot that 'Isang' means 'equal to or above', not simply 'above'. Translation fixed to reflect this.

[Brother Oni]

I believe 6th grade is for 10-11 year olds?

There's insufficient information on the school to make a judgement. Is it a state-run, public or an international school? Each type of school has a very different attitude and culture.

You say this has been imposed by the school board as a response to violence/abuse incidents - what type of violence or abuse? A shooting or stabbing is very different to bullying/physical assault.

As for being utterly ineffective, I'm not familiar enough with South Korean culture to make an assessment. As a example, this level of discipline would not be out of place in the school I went to in the UK (public boarding school), but it wouldn't be explicitly stated like this.

[meto30]

I believe 6th grade is for 10-11 year olds?

There's insufficient information on the school to make a judgement. Is it a state-run, public or an international school? Each type of school has a very different attitude and culture.

You say this has been imposed by the school board as a response to violence/abuse incidents - what type of violence or abuse? A shooting or stabbing is very different to bullying/physical assault.

As for being utterly ineffective, I'm not familiar enough with South Korean culture to make an assessment. As a example, this level of discipline would not be out of place in the school I went to in the UK (public boarding school), but it wouldn't be explicitly stated like this.

As international schools in Korea use English as the primary language, I guess it's a state-run school. (AFAIK there are no privately owned/operated elementary schools in Korea, though there are some middle and high schools) The school in question was not in any news, so I have no additional information to give other than my own guesses. Even the occurrence of an abuse case is speculative: it is just that photo which is on the Korean internet causing arguments, nothing else.

That said, if the press is doing their jobs, then there were no shootings in schools in the last decade, and so I think a shooting is out. There were very few cases of actual student murders, so while it is possible the photo is from one of those schools I think it's unlikely. More likely is that this is a response to some physical/verbal peer pressure case, as such things are ubiquitous in Korea.

[Elemental]

1. You may not use the hallways unless you're going to the restrooms.
2. When outside the classrooms, you may not
-- gather in groups of more than 3,
-- meet another for more than 30 seconds,
-- talk for longer than 3 sentences.
3. You may not run in the hallways.
4. You must submit your phone to your teacher, which you will get back when classes are over for the day. You may never touch someone else's phone without the owner's express permission.
5. You may not touch things not belonging to you. Do not do anything that can garner suspicion.
6. Do not lie.
7. Participate in the School Abuse Questionnaires every month.
-(verbal, physical, pranks that may disturb others)
- in case of an actual case of abuse.... photo cut off

Actually... While some of these rules are a bit much, most of them aren't.

1. And how is it different from any other school? When I was in school you had to have a reason to be out of class.
2. This is Umbridgean.
3. Running in the hallways is Health and Safety. If anyone trips and falls, or runs into another student, etc. etc., someone could get injured or the school sued or something. In short, paperwork is evil.
4. An extension of failed phone policies obviously. When I was in school, if you had a phone it was to be in your bag and off. Handing them in makes sense if it was added in after softer measures failed.
5. Well, you shouldn't be doing that anyway. The part about not doing anything suspicious is completely too vague however...
6. People are usually told not to lie. This is no different from usual.
7. No idea what this means, but if there are problems, this could be an attempt to deal with them.

[meto30]

Actually... While some of these rules are a bit much, most of them aren't.

1. And how is it different from any other school? When I was in school you had to have a reason to be out of class.
2. This is Umbridgean.
3. Running in the hallways is Health and Safety. If anyone trips and falls, or runs into another student, etc. etc., someone could get injured or the school sued or something. In short, paperwork is evil.
4. An extension of failed phone policies obviously. When I was in school, if you had a phone it was to be in your bag and off. Handing them in makes sense if it was added in after softer measures failed.
5. Well, you shouldn't be doing that anyway. The part about not doing anything suspicious is completely too vague however...
6. People are usually told not to lie. This is no different from usual.
7. No idea what this means, but if there are problems, this could be an attempt to deal with them.

The primary issue is with the second clause, as can be expected. The prohibition on conversation is of particular note. On the first clause, note that these rules are implied to be active at all times, i.e. even in break times in between classes. And in Korean schools there are no longer break times reserved for recreation - there are only classes, 10 minute breaks between them, and an hour of lunch time. As lunch is served in the classrooms, the first clause would prohibit students from leaving the classrooms for six hours per day.

[Starwulf]

I like the rules, honestly. Maybe if we over here in the U.S. adopted them, we might actually rise up in the ranks of over-all education compared to the rest of the world ><

[Elemental]

The primary issue is with the second clause, as can be expected. The prohibition on conversation is of particular note. On the first clause, note that these rules are implied to be active at all times, i.e. even in break times in between classes. And in Korean schools there are no longer break times reserved for recreation - there are only classes, 10 minute breaks between them, and an hour of lunch time. As lunch is served in the classrooms, the first clause would prohibit students from leaving the classrooms for six hours per day.

Well... Now that I know that, the first one is just as bad.
All I can say is Dolores Umbridge would be proud.

[Brother Oni]

More likely is that this is a response to some physical/verbal peer pressure case, as such things are ubiquitous in Korea.

My only exposure to South Korean culture is from what I see in films and from people's experiences on the internet, so I apologise in advance for any incorrect assumptions that I may make.

How prevalent is this physical/verbal peer pressure and how extreme can it get?

In Japan, it can get to the point where the entire class is involved, with physical/verbal abuse, often inciting the affected pupil to suicide. Ijime*, as it's known, often results from the fairly homogenous population of Japan, both physically and culturally.
I know that South Korean culture can be fairly prejudiced against foreigners (particularly black people, although for some reason, they're more scared than anything else), but how does this reflect in schools where presumably the population is also fairly homogenously S. Korean?


*The point is, not that bullying by the entire class is prevalent to Japan as it's not, but that it happens so often that there's a specific term for it.

[GnomeFighter]

Seems to me that the rules are OK, apart from the fact that there are no brakes away from the classroom where 2 is no longer in force.

They seem fine for between and during classes, but to keep kids basically locked in a room for 6 hours a day with zero interaction with other people is, well, wrong. Thats going to lead to all sorts of problems...

I think the bigger problem is the lack of brakes rather than the rules themselves.

I do think adults forget how tiering learning can be. I go on half day training and come out exhausted. I wonder how many adults have been away from learning for so long they forget it is not like work. It's no wonder kids can be disruptive sometimes. I know if I had to do a week of intensive training I would be tempted to start flicking elastic bands and doodling by the end of the week.

[meto30]

My only exposure to South Korean culture is from what I see in films and from people's experiences on the internet, so I apologise in advance for any incorrect assumptions that I may make.

How prevalent is this physical/verbal peer pressure and how extreme can it get?

In Japan, it can get to the point where the entire class is involved, with physical/verbal abuse, often inciting the affected pupil to suicide. Ijime*, as it's known, often results from the fairly homogenous population of Japan, both physically and culturally.
I know that South Korean culture can be fairly prejudiced against foreigners (particularly black people, although for some reason, they're more scared than anything else), but how does this reflect in schools where presumably the population is also fairly homogenously S. Korean?


*The point is, not that bullying by the entire class is prevalent to Japan as it's not, but that it happens so often that there's a specific term for it.

There is a specific term in Korean as well, "Wang-Dta", where Wang is 'king' and used as a slang adjective meaning "great", and Dta is for "Dtadolim" or alienation. Unlike Japanese Ijime, where abuse is usually carried out passively at a massive scale in tandem with the more active abuse, Korean Wang-Dta is, AFAIK, mostly carried out by a small group of bullies, nowadays usually involving some form of fiscal extortion.

Until about a decade ago, majority of student suicides were due to the student's school performance. Nowadays suicides are mostly due to peer pressure and verbal/physical abuse, and there's been a sharp rise of notorious abuse cases leading to suicides that caught the attention of the Korean press amid public outrage. Apparently physical abuse can get quite messy, but as those aforementioned cases that caught the eye of the media did not involve high-profile violence (no adults connected to the cases were aware of the abuse happening, which would mean that there were no outward signs), I think the actual severity of the physical side of things aren't too high.

Korea is like Japan a very homogeneous nation with a long history of xenophobia, but most Wang-Dta cases do not involve xenophobia, as unlike Japan's Ijime, Wang-Dta is usually initiated by a core group of bullies, who are organized on the national level in a student criminal association called the "Iljinhwe", meaning 'the First Wave'. Recently police even caught wind of the school bullies forming bonds with minor organized crime gangs mostly through former members of the Iljinhwe who are now member of said gangs.


Seems to me that the rules are OK, apart from the fact that there are no brakes away from the classroom where 2 is no longer in force.

They seem fine for between and during classes, but to keep kids basically locked in a room for 6 hours a day with zero interaction with other people is, well, wrong. Thats going to lead to all sorts of problems...

I think the bigger problem is the lack of brakes rather than the rules themselves.

I do think adults forget how tiering learning can be. I go on half day training and come out exhausted. I wonder how many adults have been away from learning for so long they forget it is not like work. It's no wonder kids can be disruptive sometimes. I know if I had to do a week of intensive training I would be tempted to start flicking elastic bands and doodling by the end of the week.
Well, in Korea, it is normal for students to attend extracurricular schools such as piano schools, curriculum crunch schools, and martial arts schools after actual school classes are over, usually for several hours. This holds true for elementary schools as well, especially those in the big cities. Standing in one of those extracurricular school neighborhoods at nine in the evening, it is very easy to spot huge groups of middle school and even elementary school students milling about to board the bus home. Sixth grade students are particularly stuck at those schools, as they are gonna be in Middle school next year and it is customary in Korea to teach sixth-graders the entire middle school curriculum in advance.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just wondering if this is in North Korea or South Korea. I see some people assuming South Korea, but the OP consistently uses simply "Korea" with no designation.

[meto30]

Just wondering if this is in North Korea or South Korea. I see some people assuming South Korea, but the OP consistently uses simply "Korea" with no designation.

Just to be clear, this is South Korea I'm speaking of. In case you're wondering, if I was a North Korean citizen, then I would be incapable of posting this, as I won't have authority to view/use this site. It'd be a miracle I even have internet access at all; the fact that I have it would imply I'm a member of the Communist Party of North Korea, live in Pyongyang, and have a certified 'higher citizenship' denoting my rank above those of 'dubious citizenship' who are potential political criminals.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah, thanks. And if I had been paying more attention earlier, I might have noticed that you have your location listed as South Korea. :smallredface:

As for the rules themselves, they seem slightly strict but nothing too out of the ordinary except for Rule 2.

[meto30]

Ah, thanks. And if I had been paying more attention earlier, I might have noticed that you have your location listed as South Korea. :smallredface:

As for the rules themselves, they seem slightly strict but nothing too out of the ordinary except for Rule 2.

Did you know that 70 years of separation has resulted in a drift apart in language as well? The grammar's still more or less same, but there's a huge difference in vocabulary used in the two Koreas! :D

[Ravens_cry]

Did you know that 70 years of separation has resulted in a drift apart in language as well? The grammar's still more or less same, but there's a huge difference in vocabulary used in the two Koreas! :D
That's actually rather fascinating, in a sad sort of way.

[TaiLiu]

Did you know that 70 years of separation has resulted in a drift apart in language as well? The grammar's still more or less same, but there's a huge difference in vocabulary used in the two Koreas! :D
Very interesting. This requires further research...

[Xuc Xac]

Did you know that 70 years of separation has resulted in a drift apart in language as well? The grammar's still more or less same, but there's a huge difference in vocabulary used in the two Koreas! :D

Just like the North and South in Vietnam. Or the US. Or Germany. Or England. Almost every country has a big difference in regional vocabulary, unless they have an official language that everyone learns and uses as a second language (like Indonesia) so they don't have as much drift as you typically see in their first languages.

[meto30]

Just like the North and South in Vietnam. Or the US. Or Germany. Or England. Almost every country has a big difference in regional vocabulary, unless they have an official language that everyone learns and uses as a second language (like Indonesia) so they don't have as much drift as you typically see in their first languages.

By separation of vocabulary, I mean a difference in meanings, usage, and terminology so great that intercommunication becomes very difficult.

A well known instance is the North Korean sentence "Il Eopsubnida (literally, 'there is no issue')". To a South Korean, not only is the sentence nonsensical, it seems to mean 'I have no business with you," and is deemed offensive. To a North Korean, the sentence is a friendly reminder that there is no problem (issue) to resolve and thus everything is alright.

North Korea is also notorious for forcibly removing as much Chinese and English influence in their language, resulting in a vocabulary filled with archaic Korean components and many new jargon that South Koreans simply cannot understand. The same goes for South Korean heavy reliance on English for new words - almost the entire modern South Korean vocabulary is at least partially English-based, and thus North Koreans have a hard time catching all the words. The fact that North Korea relies primarily on Russian for loanwords does not help, too.

North Koreans also tend to use a lot of heavier, more violent terms in everyday speech. According to the Ministry of Korean Unification, this is because of an active propaganda effort by the North Korean government to make the people more warlike. For example, let's say a factory is going into crunch time to meet temporary demands. While a South Korean factory manager might use motivational phrases such as "We can do this" "you are doing a great job" "fighting everyone!" ('fighting' is Konglish used in much the same way as Hooray), a North Korean manager is prone to use phrases such as "we will blast through the crunch time like a machine gun through infantry!" "kill those workloads!" "once more onto the breach!". Pronunciation is heavier in the North as well, with stronger emphasis on double consonants (a feature of the Korean language) and such. A common observation by South Koreans on North Korean speech is that "it always sounds like they're angry".

[TaiLiu]

By separation of vocabulary, I mean a difference in meanings, usage, and terminology so great that intercommunication becomes very difficult.

A well known instance is the North Korean sentence "Il Eopsubnida (literally, 'there is no issue')". To a South Korean, not only is the sentence nonsensical, it seems to mean 'I have no business with you," and is deemed offensive. To a North Korean, the sentence is a friendly reminder that there is no problem (issue) to resolve and thus everything is alright.

North Korea is also notorious for forcibly removing as much Chinese and English influence in their language, resulting in a vocabulary filled with archaic Korean components and many new jargon that South Koreans simply cannot understand. The same goes for South Korean heavy reliance on English for new words - almost the entire modern South Korean vocabulary is at least partially English-based, and thus North Koreans have a hard time catching all the words. The fact that North Korea relies primarily on Russian for loanwords does not help, too.

North Koreans also tend to use a lot of heavier, more violent terms in everyday speech. According to the Ministry of Korean Unification, this is because of an active propaganda effort by the North Korean government to make the people more warlike. For example, let's say a factory is going into crunch time to meet temporary demands. While a South Korean factory manager might use motivational phrases such as "We can do this" "you are doing a great job" "fighting everyone!" ('fighting' is Konglish used in much the same way as Hooray), a North Korean manager is prone to use phrases such as "we will blast through the crunch time like a machine gun through infantry!" "kill those workloads!" "once more onto the breach!". Pronunciation is heavier in the North as well, with stronger emphasis on double consonants (a feature of the Korean language) and such. A common observation by South Koreans on North Korean speech is that "it always sounds like they're angry".
Very interesting!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by meto30
Did you know that 70 years of separation has resulted in a drift apart in language as well? The grammar's still more or less same, but there's a huge difference in vocabulary used in the two Koreas!

Absolutely fascinating. To a degree, I think this would be expected even without the ham-handed government interference, especially given what I assume is extremely limited interchange across the border. It calls to mind the divergence of Hindi and Urdu, although in that case there are powerful external forces that have been at work for centuries.

From what you describe, though, it sounds as if the North Korean government is doing everything they can to intensify and accelerate these changes--if not to recreate a "pure" language that never really was. They're not the first country to attempt to purge English loanwords from their language, although it sounds like they've been far more...rigorous than most.

:smalleek:



In Brazil, where I've worked and traveled a fair bit, there are very strong regional differences in pronunciation and vocabulary--in large part because travel within Brazil's immense borders has always been difficult, and remains so for a lot of people today.

I found an especially powerful difference between the clipped, precise speech of São Paulo, and the "standard" Brazilian Portuguese of Rio, compared with the easy, rolling accents of the central Amazon, which sometimes seemed to be all vowels and not a consonant to be had for love or cachaça. The Amazonian dialects also seem to have a lot of borrow-words from native languages, which sometimes simply don't exist in Rio.

And as you can imagine, there's an equally strong distinction between Brazilian and Continental Portuguese. After spending years learning Brazilian Portuguese, I can barely follow the Continental speech.

[Aedilred]

1. You may not use the hallways unless you're going to the restrooms.
2. When outside the classrooms, you may not
-- gather in groups of more than 2,
-- meet another for more than 30 seconds,
-- talk for longer than 2 sentences.
3. You may not run in the hallways.
4. You must submit your phone to your teacher, which you will get back when classes are over for the day. You may never touch someone else's phone without the owner's express permission.
5. You may not touch things not belonging to you. Do not do anything that can garner suspicion.
6. Do not lie.
7. Participate in the School Abuse Questionnaires every month.
-(verbal, physical, pranks that may disturb others)
- in case of an actual case of abuse.... photo cut off

Well, 5 and 6 are the sort of things you'd hope would go without saying anyway, even if phrased in a bit of a weird way (lost in translation?). 3 is also perfectly sensible. 4 is a little draconian but if phones are causing a problem in school then it seems fair enough - it's not like the kids need their phones in school anyway. 7 is a bit red-tape-happy for my liking, and is likely to lead to form-filling fatigue on the parts of the children, making the exercise futile, but fine.

1 seems fair enough so long as it doesn't extend to break times, but then it seems break times as we know them don't really happen in Korea. I'm not fond of that as an education philosophy, but if you've made the decision that school-age children are to be effectively imprisoned for the duration of the day, then it makes sense.

2 is ridiculous, as much as anything because it's practically unenforceable.

While the purpose of the exercise is, apparently, to prevent abuse and bullying, what it'll really result in - if successful - is the complete curtailing of any social life for any of the students and preventing them from forming any relationships with their peers or developing social skills... which is probably more likely to lead to some sort of abuse or bullying either in school or outside it than allowing them to socialise normally.

But then, if implemented fully and to a zero-tolerance degree, these rules probably would work, because they're preventing the students from doing anything that isn't completely prescribed by school authorities. It's only addressing the symptoms, not the cause, and likely leading to more, bigger and worse problems than it purports to address, but then that sort of approach is pretty much endemic to... well, any form of institution.

It won't work even to that limited degree, though, because the rules as they stand are unenforceable without a prohibitive level of supervision. And if you're providing that level of supervision you wouldn't need the rules anyway.

[Brother Oni]

A question for those citing point 2 as restrictive with regard to pupil's social development - why can't they socialise with the other pupils they're in class with?

According to one article I found, the average S.Korean elementary school class size is 28.6, which is fairly sizeable in my opinion.

In addition, meto30 also mentions that extra-curricular activities and after school clubs are very common, thus enabling them to socialise with their fellow pupils outside of their immediate class mates.

[Aedilred]

A question for those citing point 2 as restrictive with regard to pupil's social development - why can't they socialise with the other pupils they're in class with?
It prevents the students from forming new relationships other than those they're arbitrarily assigned. Rather than having the whole pool of peers to choose from, they've got to find their friends and companions from the >30 kids they spend all day with anyway. It also means they can't get away - either physically or socially - from anyone who's victimising them within that sphere, or seek refuge elsewhere.

[Coidzor]

In addition, meto30 also mentions that extra-curricular activities and after school clubs are very common, thus enabling them to socialise with their fellow pupils outside of their immediate class mates.

I don't know, usually draconian rules don't include obvious provisions like allowing for extra-curriculars and clubs. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

Yeah, there's a bit of context lacking, but I've heard about similar rules implemented elsewhere. In fact, I think there as a CNN clip about an school in the USA doing this.

[meto30]

1 seems fair enough so long as it doesn't extend to break times, but then it seems break times as we know them don't really happen in Korea. I'm not fond of that as an education philosophy, but if you've made the decision that school-age children are to be effectively imprisoned for the duration of the day, then it makes sense.

2 is ridiculous, as much as anything because it's practically unenforceable.

While the purpose of the exercise is, apparently, to prevent abuse and bullying, what it'll really result in - if successful - is the complete curtailing of any social life for any of the students and preventing them from forming any relationships with their peers or developing social skills... which is probably more likely to lead to some sort of abuse or bullying either in school or outside it than allowing them to socialise normally.

But then, if implemented fully and to a zero-tolerance degree, these rules probably would work, because they're preventing the students from doing anything that isn't completely prescribed by school authorities. It's only addressing the symptoms, not the cause, and likely leading to more, bigger and worse problems than it purports to address, but then that sort of approach is pretty much endemic to... well, any form of institution.

It won't work even to that limited degree, though, because the rules as they stand are unenforceable without a prohibitive level of supervision. And if you're providing that level of supervision you wouldn't need the rules anyway.

As I do not know exactly how the rules are being enforced, I can't give definitive answers. However, I do know that a grand majority of schools in Korea are government-designed-and-built with very similar linear layout, where all floors are basically very long and straight corridors with classrooms lining one side of it. I'd guess teachers would patrol the floors using the main stairs and forcing all students to use only that staircase (this is common practice in Korea; students are normally allowed one staircase while the rest are used by staff only). Complete coverage probably isn't being provided - teachers are already understaffed as they are.



I don't know, usually draconian rules don't include obvious provisions like allowing for extra-curriculars and clubs. :smalltongue:

If I were to imagine what the teachers are thinking, I'd guess it'd be "whatever happens outside the school is not in our purview!". Please do note that when I say extra-curricular schools I meant private academic institutions where students go to study after school; they are not connected to the schools in any way. In fact, Korean law regulates and in general prohibits such institutions, but as every parent wants their kids to go there, regulations are simply not applied.

On making friends, there's a saying in Korea: "Duty of the student is studying. Do your duty. Don't waste time doing something else."



Yeah, there's a bit of context lacking, but I've heard about similar rules implemented elsewhere. In fact, I think there as a CNN clip about an school in the USA doing this.

Very interesting! I did not know there were similar rules in force in some schools in the States! I did not expect that.

[Coidzor]

If I were to imagine what the teachers are thinking, I'd guess it'd be "whatever happens outside the school is not in our purview!".

Well, I suppose at least they aren't thinking with multiple exclamation points...:smallamused:


Please do note that when I say extra-curricular schools I meant private academic institutions where students go to study after school; they are not connected to the schools in any way. In fact, Korean law regulates and in general prohibits such institutions, but as every parent wants their kids to go there, regulations are simply not applied.

So the country lacks things like school clubs as a general rule then?

[meto30]

Well, I suppose at least they aren't thinking with multiple exclamation points...:smallamused:

So the country lacks things like school clubs as a general rule then?

School clubs exist, it's only they're mandatory part of the curriculum and are basically just another form of class sessions. Extra-curricular activities do exist, but either they are just for children of poor families who can't afford expensive 'Hagwon (after school academies)' or are run by extremely active PTAs filled with mothers who control every single aspect of their children's lives. And in the latter case, the activity just becomes a school-sponsored Hagwon of its own.


Absolutely fascinating. To a degree, I think this would be expected even without the ham-handed government interference, especially given what I assume is extremely limited interchange across the border. It calls to mind the divergence of Hindi and Urdu, although in that case there are powerful external forces that have been at work for centuries.

From what you describe, though, it sounds as if the North Korean government is doing everything they can to intensify and accelerate these changes--if not to recreate a "pure" language that never really was. They're not the first country to attempt to purge English loanwords from their language, although it sounds like they've been far more...rigorous than most.

:smalleek:
It helps if the penalty for dissenting with the government is life in a forced labor camp or a bullet to the head. North Korean criminal justice system isn't exactly what you and I would call a 'justice' system.



- edited for conciseness, see original post -

The innuendo of the rules 5 and 6 are translated as best I could, and the mood of the sentence that you seem to have detected is present in the original text as well. Especially the "don't do anything suspicious" part. Rule 6, "do not lie", is a blunt and short statement in the Korean text as well.

As on the part of abuse happening outside school grounds, that is one of my worries as well. Most of the notorious bullying cases reported by the media seem to place the scene of most physical harassment outside the schools - in playgrounds, in Hagwon, and in the roads leading to and from the school entrances. IMO those stringent rules aren't going to do much good (provided they do work as intended) if they're enforced only within school grounds.

Not only that, but it seems the Ministry of Education's response to school violence outside schools is to vastly increase police patrol presence in school zones. Korean police are already spread thin as it is. I live in Busan, the second largest city in the country, and when I walk in the streets it's a lucky day if I see even one police patrol. After the fall of the police state of the '80s the Korean law enforcement agencies have been gradually stripped of their power and funding, and now they're reduced to shadows of their former selves. Not that I support a police state of any kind, but when the police can't respond to a rape case happening 50 meters from their patrol car after receiving a report call from the employer of the victim that their employee hasn't returned from her customer, who happened to be a former convict tagged by the police department for having committed several counts of rape, who had even violated the terms of his parole by removing his tracking device from his ankle, just because the patrol did not have express authorization from the Persecution Agency to enter private property, I'd say the weakening of the police has gone too far. Now they expect nearly 50% of the patrol manpower watching over school zones. How in the world do they expect the police to do its normal job then?

...Ahem... looks like I rambled a bit. I'm putting the rambling in spoiler blocks, so those uninterested can leave it be. :smallredface:

[Brother Oni]

It prevents the students from forming new relationships other than those they're arbitrarily assigned. Rather than having the whole pool of peers to choose from, they've got to find their friends and companions from the >30 kids they spend all day with anyway. It also means they can't get away - either physically or socially - from anyone who's victimising them within that sphere, or seek refuge elsewhere.

I don't know how classes were organised in your school, but if someone was bullying me in my primary school class, there's nowhere to go anyway.

I'll concede the reduction in available pool, especially since meto30's clarified the nature of school clubs and extra-curricular activities in the S.Korean school system (I was thinking more along the Japanese line of school clubs).

[Aedilred]

I don't know how classes were organised in your school, but if someone was bullying me in my primary school class, there's nowhere to go anyway.
We were allowed free run during break times - in fact, at my primary school, we were forced to leave the classroom unless the weather was truly appalling - so escaping your own class (if necessary) to see friends from other classes, or just going to the library, was perfectly possible.

[GnomeFighter]

On making friends, there's a saying in Korea: "Duty of the student is studying. Do your duty. Don't waste time doing something else."


Without wanting to criticize someone else's culture (different countries have different needs), this is exactly why, in the west, we should not be trying to emulate Korean school system, and others from that area of the world. They may produce lots of qualifications but at the expense of creativity and social skills, which are what drive innovation.

[meto30]

Without wanting to criticize someone else's culture (different countries have different needs), this is exactly why, in the west, we should not be trying to emulate Korean school system, and others from that area of the world. They may produce lots of qualifications but at the expense of creativity and social skills, which are what drive innovation.

You are closer to the truth than you might think. This focus on studying has resulted in two full generations of skilled bigots (or so the saying goes). While the new 'batch' of graduates may have ample knowledge in many fields of study, they lack patience, morality, and common sense. This is especially true of the children of the richer families, who could afford to fit in more extra-curricular studies into their children's schedule, and thus leaves less room for everything else.

Productivity of the people is suffering as well. With most of the curriculum based on doing as told, most students lack any kind of initiative. With most of the student body crammed into Hagwon where tested, failsafe strategies of getting into college is copied and promulgated shamelessly, there is an astounding lack of variety in the way the students think and do things. There's currently a dual crisis in the Korean workforce, where young adults newly entering it cannot find jobs and companies cannot find the needed talent. The common observation is that there are millions who are capable in many different skills, but only ten or so make any real contribution to their employers. One assessment of the situation that I find particularly insightful is that made of Korea's IT industry: "There sure are hundreds of coders, but we can see not a single programmer among them."


One field I can testify from my own experience is the study of the English Language. A large portion of the Korean populace score high on TOEFL and other similar English tests, and yet it is rare to find people who can actually converse in the language. This is because most Koreans study the tests, not the language itself.

[GnomeFighter]

You are closer to the truth than you might think.
It's been something I have been pushing for a while, that we have our own needs and strengths, but people just say "Well, look at the test results and number of graduates". Same with the major outsourcing countries use in the UK, India and China.


One assessment of the situation that I find particularly insightful is that made of Korea's IT industry: "There sure are hundreds of coders, but we can see not a single programmer among them."

That doesn't surprise me at all. I don't have a huge amount of experience with Korean companies, but Indian companies (who seem to have the same sort of "lots of skills, no ideas" problem) seem to have the same thing. We are currently doing a massive upgrade of our core computer systems (A budget of around £10million). I hear people complaining about how India is becoming this major power in the world but then see what the outsourcing company dose with anything we give them. With run of the mill stuff they come back very fast but as soon as anything goes outside of this... As an example we have been trying to get one document to be printed correctly for months. We keep sending the specs we need, nothing complex but outside the norm. Within a week we have a reply back. Either it is the same document with a note saying "We can't workout what is wrong" or a very slight change. They can't think round the problem, just keep trying the same thing again and again that they have been taught. Lots of knowledge, very little understanding.

It worries me that, firstly, people look to these places as an example to follow, and secondly the damage this kind of education is doing to young people.

[Spiryt]

I've been running all around the hallway and school when I was in elementary school...

Dunno, maybe I'm from savage territories, and all, but I find those oppressive without any real necessity.


I like the rules, honestly. Maybe if we over here in the U.S. adopted them, we might actually rise up in the ranks of over-all education compared to the rest of the world ><

How exactly would this improve 'quality' of education though?

Can't see any connection.

[Eldan]

It's a trade-off, of course. But I don't think an Environment where children aren't allowed to run around and Play is healthy at all.

[Starwulf]

I've been running all around the hallway and school when I was in elementary school...

Dunno, maybe I'm from savage territories, and all, but I find those oppressive without any real necessity.



How exactly would this improve 'quality' of education though?

Can't see any connection.


It's a trade-off, of course. But I don't think an Environment where children aren't allowed to run around and Play is healthy at all.

I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life. Middle/High school is learning, which I don't particularly see enough of in our schools anymore. If there are less distractions, then that means the students focus is going to be more on the lessons being taught.

[SiuiS]

Interesting.
I think they have value but do not think they will achieve what yet are designed for.

[meto30]

It's been something I have been pushing for a while, that we have our own needs and strengths, but people just say "Well, look at the test results and number of graduates". Same with the major outsourcing countries use in the UK, India and China.

It worries me that, firstly, people look to these places as an example to follow, and secondly the damage this kind of education is doing to young people.
Indeed, I'd be terrified if more countries adopt this form of education.



How exactly would this improve 'quality' of education though?
Interesting. I think they have value but do not think they will achieve what they are designed for.
IMO, children are rebelious by their nature. I believe the more restrictive the rules become, the more hostile to the system the students will be. Once the system loses the trust of the students, it would fall apart. I fear this trend is at best short-sighted and at worst strictly counterproductive.



I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life. Middle/High school is learning, which I don't particularly see enough of in our schools anymore. If there are less distractions, then that means the students focus is going to be more on the lessons being taught.
But surely, you wouldn't want your middle and high school years to be filled with 1984-style Newspeak, would you?

Did you know that in all Korean high schools and some select Korean middle schools, there is such a thing as 'mandatory nighttime voluntary study time'? (Korean: 강제야간자율학습, Gangje-Yagan-Jayul-Haksup) "Voluntary study time" is a Korean term denoting students reading textbooks and solving practice problems on their desks (without the provision of an instructor, thus the adjective). It is called nighttime voluntary study time because these particular study sessions are held from 7 to 9~10 'o clock PM. It is also mandatory: they are considered as class sessions and thus you are disqualified from advancing a grade if you miss more then a third of them. Since it is mandatory, teachers patrol the corridors to make sure the students don't slack or attempt an escape. Talking, moving about, and making noise in general is not allowed. These sessions take place every day there's school, so that'd be six days a week, 45 weeks a year. If you'd prefer this kind of schooling, be my guest.

If I had kids, I'd never allow them to suffer this kind of life. It's bad enough that I had to go through it.

[Spiryt]

I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life. Middle/High school is learning, which I don't particularly see enough of in our schools anymore. If there are less distractions, then that means the students focus is going to be more on the lessons being taught.

It really doesn't work like that in any school I've ever seen...

If there's 'no distraction' kids will find some distraction. Drawing stuff in notebooks, telling jokes, pranks on other kids, and 491 other things.

If one cannot get kids interested in what is being taught, they won't 'focus'.

One can use increasingly more oppressive methods, but what's the point? Result will be stressed kids, not 'smart' kids.

[Aedilred]

I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life.
What about people who don't go to college? Fewer than 50% of people here go to higher education, and to be honest I think the proportion of people that do is already too high. Are we just going to throw everyone else to the wolves?

I think there are a number of flaws in the reasoning, which I don't have time right now to go into detail over, but that's the most obvious.

[GnomeFighter]

I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life. Middle/High school is learning, which I don't particularly see enough of in our schools anymore. If there are less distractions, then that means the students focus is going to be more on the lessons being taught.

Not really sure what your saying here. That kids should not socialize until they go to college? How can they build social skills, make friends etc? It SEEMS that your saying that kids should not have friends at that age because it distracts them from studying, which is... Worrying... Or that kids should not socialize in class? Well they shouldn't do that in college either. Please do explain more, as if that is not what you mean it is not clear what you do want to say.

The only other explanation is that you haven't read the context, that in Korea kids go to school in the morning, must keep to these rules at lunch, have no brakes, then go home and, often, off to evening "cramming" classes, 6 days a week. This isn't "no talking in class".

If any kid has to choose between education and "a life" it seems that there is too much pressure on them (within reasonable limits of "a life". i.e. I'm not talking teenage "why can't I go to that party on a school night!!!!!!!" life)

[Eldan]

I wouldn't want the rules for kids below 6th grade, but after that, I think it would be great. School shouldn't be a massive socializing place, that's college, when you're old enough to manage both education and having a life. Middle/High school is learning, which I don't particularly see enough of in our schools anymore. If there are less distractions, then that means the students focus is going to be more on the lessons being taught.

Huh. College was, for me, when all socialization stopped. You had your eight hours+ of lectures a day, then an hour or two of homework and everyone lived an hour away from Campus. Plus you spent your days with 300 other People in a lecture hall and never had time to talk to anyone for more than five minutes anyway.
High School was time off to have some fun between mandatory school and University entrance exams. You only have the 20% or so students left who want to be there instead of getting a Job, the teachers are better paid, University educated and only teaching their specialist subjects and everyone can choose their own courses for the first time.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan
College was, for me, when all socialization stopped. You had your eight hours+ of lectures a day, then an hour or two of homework and everyone lived an hour away from Campus. Plus you spent your days with 300 other People in a lecture hall and never had time to talk to anyone for more than five minutes anyway.

I had this experience when I was a commuter student in my master's program, although we still managed to socialize a little around class.

Completely the opposite in college itself, though, when I lived on campus. The intensity of social interactions was one of the defining aspects of the college experience.


Originally Posted by GnomeFighter
As an example we have been trying to get one document to be printed correctly for months. We keep sending the specs we need, nothing complex but outside the norm. Within a week we have a reply back. Either it is the same document with a note saying "We can't workout what is wrong" or a very slight change. They can't think round the problem....

I had almost the same experience, in my case dealing with a publishing company who outsourced a layout project to a firm in the same country. The publisher was Springer-Verlag and the book was an edited volume; I was first author on one of the chapters. Springer themselves were a real pain to work with (they sort of dropped the project for a year or so while they "reorganized") and the outsourced layout firm was a pure nightmare to deal with.

We had to go back and forth, back and forth over editing and layout issues that they just didn't get, and I had the strong impression they were working too fast to really think about it. I've worked in the field for years, and it was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had.

Part of it, of course, was that we were separated by eight thousand miles of mantle and nickel-iron core, which has a real way of hampering communication. But even if they'd been in the same room with me, I think there would've been a tremendous disconnect. They didn't seem to pause long enough to breathe, much less listen or really think about what they were doing.