Wands as guns (3.5)

[Eslin]

In the setting my players are currently in humanity finally got around to abusing decanters of endless water and walls of iron and promptly curbstomped pretty much every other race, and have started abusing various methods of making magical items cheaply.

Infinite iron and magical forging means steel is so cheap that pretty much everything's getting built out of it and good quality swords can be obtained by anyone who really wants one, but I'm wondering about wands (or other similar things like command word items) - considering almost everyone has ranks in UMD, what low level spells could be a useful commonly used as pseudo guns? So far I've got magic missile, seeking ray and scorching ray (1d4+1 for SL1/CL1 and 4d6 for SL2/CL3) respectively - what other spells could be useful?

Specifically I'm looking for high damage/something else cool with no save at the lowest levels possible - anyone have any personal favourites that could fit the bill?

[Juntao112]

Lesser Orb of X.

[Eslin]

That'll work fine, 1d8 beats 1d4+1. Though I think I'll have wands of magic missile be more common still - it's an iconic spell and it has four times the range and does force damage, so it's probably more useful.

[thethird]

launch item?

Use boulders as munition, or arrow heads, or alchemical thingies.

[Eslin]

I was about to say I don't mean physically pretending to be a gun but rather taking the place of guns (easy to use and deadly), but on closer examination that looks really useful in its own right too.

So we've got:
scorching ray (powerful and expensive, short range)
seeking ray (ditto, but electricity)
launch item (weak and needs physical ammunition, but long range and cheap)
magic missile (cheap, low damage, medium range)
orb of acid (cheap, slightly improved low damage, short range)

Anyone got any others?

[Uncle Pine]

You can also use launch item to throw a Colossal crossbow bolt, should you need more damage without having to carry a gigantic boulder.

[Piggy Knowles]

Fell Frighten Sonic Snap? It's the same level as Seeking/Scorching Ray, and only deals negligible damage, but the target is automatically shaken and has a chance of being deafened.

[Eslin]

Isn't that metamagic though?

And colossal crossbow bolt wise, I'm the dm. I'm not going to encourage players to do stuff like that by doing it myself.

[CaladanMoonblad]

When D&D was being playtested in Gary Gygax's home campaign in the early 1970s, one of his players was a huge western fan and wanted to play a cowboy. Gary said there were no cowboys in his medieval world, but suggested a Wizard who had wands... that looked like revolvers. That cowboy/wizard was Murlynd, who still has artifacts named after him in d20 (like Murlynd's Spoon, which creates trail grits on command).

The benefit of a magic missile wand, is that it is an autohit. No need to aim at all. Just win initiative.

Chances are, the "fast draw" mechanic of choice will be a wand carried in a forearm holster, with a quick release mechanism.

[Piggy Knowles]

Isn't that metamagic though?

And colossal crossbow bolt wise, I'm the dm. I'm not going to encourage players to do stuff like that by doing it myself.

It is, but that shouldn't stop you. Metamagic wands are explicitly allowed in the DMG. Here's a quote from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#):



Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


They even have wands in the DMG that are already incorporating this, such as the heightened versions of Charm Person and Hold Person.

[Eslin]

Oh, cool. Well that makes it even better - I'm planning to have it be a pretty flourishing industry, with different specs and various makers adding pointless crap like polished walnut grips etc, metamagic adds a lot of variety.

Game balance wise, the proliferation of wands amongst the general populace is supposed to keep the PCs scared of random crowds at high levels because they might be packing.

[maximus25]

Oh, cool. Well that makes it even better - I'm planning to have it be a pretty flourishing industry, with different specs and various makers adding pointless crap like polished walnut grips etc, metamagic adds a lot of variety.

Game balance wise, the proliferation of wands amongst the general populace is supposed to keep the PCs scared of random crowds at high levels because they might be packing.

"You better watch out, bro. I'm packing heat... and cold... and electricity... and force."

[ahenobarbi]

Fell Frighten Sonic Snap? It's the same level as Seeking/Scorching Ray, and only deals negligible damage, but the target is automatically shaken and has a chance of being deafened.

Fell Drain Sonic Snap wile we're at it. Not scary but negative level is pretty bad.

[Piggy Knowles]

Fell Drain Sonic Snap wile we're at it. Not scary but negative level is pretty bad.

Yeah, that's the cream of the crop... I just worried it might be too expensive for the OP's purposes.

[Eslin]

Fell drain works a little too well - I've ruled that if the opponent has more negative levels than levels each new negative level applies two points of constitution drain rather than killing them instantly.

Keeps negative levels scary at high levels and makes them less ridiculous at low levels.

[Maginomicon]

I was about to say I don't mean physically pretending to be a gun but rather taking the place of guns (easy to use and deadly), but on closer examination that looks really useful in its own right too.
I have to wonder though, what would you have to do to a wand if you wanted them to be so easy a child (figuratively) could use them?

The following is what I do for wands-as-guns in my main campaign:

Define shorthand in the House Rules for different kinds of effects:
The following new terms categorize certain kinds of effects:

“Grenade-like”: Some kind of object is hurled or fired at a destination (which is usually a square), auto-hits the destination, and then has an area-of-effect centered there (i.e. Fireball, Hail of Crystals, etc.). This category includes cones centered at the user (colloquially called a “shotgun-like” effect).
“Ray-like”: Some kind of object (usually a visual ray) is hurled or fired at a destination (which could be a square) as a ranged touch attack. (i.e. Scorching Ray, Crystal Shard, etc.)
“Bullet-like”: Some kind of object is hurled or fired at a destination (which could be a square) as a ranged attack (not a ranged touch attack). (i.e. Giant’s Wrath, Invisible Needle, etc.)

Effects that do not describe a grenade-like, bullet-like, or ray-like means to get from you to their destination do not require true line-of-effect and only need line-of-sight (even if that line-of-sight is through a glass window, a screen, or scry) so long as the physical destination is within the effect’s stated physical range ignoring obstacles (Yes, this means you’ll often have to look up the flavor text for each effect if it’s from the SRD, but that’s nothing new). If this puzzles you, you can think of it as “the influence of your magic does not spread beyond the physical range of the spell”.

Use your best judgement on what grenade-like, bullet-like, or ray-like effects do to intervening obstacles (such as whether they count as “soft cover” or whether it’ll damage, destroy, or move the obstacle in some way).

Realize that a lot of psionic powers do not mention any sort of need for a true line-of-effect. Additionally, the psionic character could “dispense with displays” (and generally will always attempt to anyway since there’s no negative cost for failure) to completely remove that display. However, if the power’s description directly describes a grenade-like, bullet-like, or ray-like effect as a means for the power to get from the manifester to the destination, then the dispense with display option will not dispense with that aspect of the display (and thus, still requires true line-of-effect.

Define "Guns":
A “gun” is a template that can be applied on any wand or dorje that meets certain prerequisites.

Essentially, a gun is a wand (a “wand gun”) or dorje (a “dorje gun”) that has certain extra properties:

It can be used by anyone. This means it does not require a “use magic device” check or a “use psionic device” check and is a use-activated item that takes a normal action to activate as appropriate for a wand or dorje of that type.
It can only contain a spell or power that utilizes a “grenade-like”, “bullet-like”, or “ray-like” effect (see the “House Rules” section).
It can be “recharged” in one of three ways:
You can spend money on it.
You can spend XP on it.
You can expend magical or psionic energy into it.
If the contained effect is a grenade-like effect that does not normally require a ranged touch attack to reach a destination square or intersection (such as most grenade-like spells with a simple range), when the gun is “fired” at a specific square or intersection the character must first succeed on a ranged touch attack (AC 5) within the effect’s normal range to affect that square. Treat a misdirection as if you were missing with a splash weapon.
Guns are considered ranged simple weapons. Normally, operating a gun requires two hands. However, you can shoot a gun with one hand at a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a gun with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

A gun is still treated as a wand or a dorje for the purposes of effects which affect a wand or a dorje.

Define methods for reloading a gun:You cannot recharge a gun beyond it’s normal charge limit of 50 charges.

Recharging a Wand Gun

Be aware that the caster level that was required to craft the wand gun may be higher than expected.

As a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can spend gp equal to 15 times the caster level required to craft the wand gun to give the wand gun a single charge. A wand gun can be recharged this way up to 10 times a day. You must have a hand free to do this.

As a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you can spend XP equal to 50 times the caster level required to craft the wand gun to give the wand gun a single charge. A wand gun can be recharged this way up to three times a day.

As a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you can expend a spell slot appropriate to the minimum caster level required to craft the wand gun (so 1st for CL 1, 2nd for CL 3, 3rd for CL 5, etc.) to give the wand gun a single charge. A wand gun can be recharged this way up to five times a day.

Recharging a Dorje Gun

Be aware that the manifester level that was required to craft the dorje gun may be higher than expected.

As a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can spend gp equal to 15 times the manifester level required to craft the dorje gun to give the dorje gun a single charge. A dorje gun can be recharged this way up to 10 times a day. You must have a hand free to do this.

As a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you can spend XP equal to 50 times the manifester level required to craft the dorje gun to give the dorje gun a single charge. A dorje gun can be recharged this way up to three times a day.

As a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you can expend power points equal to the manifester level required to craft the dorje gun to give the dorje gun a single charge. A dorje gun can be recharged this way up to five times a day.

Define methods for crafting a gun:Crafting a gun adds special costs and prerequisites. When calculating the normal wand or dorje costs, double the final base cost. Add the Jack of All Trades feat (Complete Adventurer page 110) to the crafting prerequisites.

[A_S]

Hail of Stone for videogame-style shotgun effect?

[Fouredged Sword]

Chain launch bolt becomes the gatling gun wand of kings.

Get three on that rod that mounts three wands and fires them all at once.

You are looking as firing up to 60 bolts as a standard action.

Have the wand have a 60 bolt quiver slung under the grip for easy ammunition.

Give it to a fighter who focuses on crossbows. That +2 damage starts to add up quickly.

[Eslin]

Interesting idea, but not the point - I'm looking for stuff the average (well off and educated due to magical first world economy) citizen can pull out of his pocket and aim - everyone has a few ranks in use magic device what with the magical industrial revolution, which combined with gaining bonuses to UMD with specific devices due to familiarity plus wands coming with custom enchantments/enchanted holsters (quick draw! +5 to UMD with wands of magic missile!) the DC20 should be regularly hittable for joe citizen.

It's not like everyone will have one, and attitudes will vary - in some places everyone will have one for self defense, in others it'll be frowned upon, in some there'll be government controls on who can have them, in some it'll be a status thing and every guy will one one.

'Check this out, polished darkwood with a custom grip, fires acid arrows accurate to 500 feet and watch this - press the button on the side and this genuine green steel +1 dagger slides out the top! Bet you wish you had one of these.'

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider then an eternal wand. 3/day is enough for most people's self defense, and allows for training without burning a hole in the pocket of the owner. Or maybe a eternal and normal version of the same wand. One for practice, one in case you need more than 3/day.

Off the top of my head, the big ones would be...

Bold for common

Level 0 - 375gp wand, 7.5gp a charge
Launch Bolt - 1d6 damage, good range, cheep.
Acid Splash - Cheep and easy

Level 1 - 750gp wand, 15gp a charge
Color Spray - Pepper spray likely to end an encounter non-lethally with one shot. A ladies' wand of choice for going about without accompaniment.
Cause Fear - Another nice combat ender
Sleep - See Cause Fear
Burning Hands - Nice damage for close in
Magic Missile - 1d4+1 auto hit, easy to prepare for though.

Level 2 - 4500gp a wand, 90gp a charge, get as eternal wands, these end encounters with one shot.
Scorching Ray - 4d6 fire damage at good range
Glitter Dust - Combat Ending POWER
Blindness/deafness - This is cruel and awesome as a defensive wand. Blind your target and run, so attack roll needed.

[thethird]

Not that launch item can throw stuff such as alchemical fire, tanglebags, balls of poison etcetera...

[Eslin]

Yeah, but then you need to have those items on you. We're talking regular citizens, not adventurers - in quite a lot of places people will buy wands never expecting to have to use them, but liking the idea of magical power at their fingertips nonetheless.

Also, hadn't considered colour spray - that makes a lot of sense, though the will save part mean's it's pretty unreliable, plus it has to be used when they're really close to you. Anyone got any other cheap non lethal options?

[PlusSixPelican]

I don't think Launch Item can launch enormous crossbow bolts.

Launch Bolt could probably launch bigger bolts, though.

[Eslin]

Doesn't really matter either way - having to carry around a bunch of crossbow bolts doesn't make sense.

[Fouredged Sword]

Unless the wizard who made the wand of launch bolt also use the eschew material feat to remove the need for the material component. Then the wands DON'T need to be used with crossbow bolts as the wand creates one.

[maximus25]

Unless the wizard who made the wand of launch bolt also use the eschew material feat to remove the need for the material component. Then the wands DON'T need to be used with crossbow bolts as the wand creates one.

Are the crossbow bolts a material component or just shot as a result of the spell?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes!

The spell has an odd wording, but the material component states "One Crossbow Bolt"

[maximus25]

Well then.

Eschew materials works and you get your wand of crossbow bolt creation and destruction.

[Eslin]

'Target: One crossbow bolt in your possession'
Gonna go with needing an actual bolt

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, well the wording is very odd. I wish WoTC maintained better internal consistency with the wording of their spells.

[PlusSixPelican]

If ya read the new Spell Compendium entry with the errata, the material component AND the target are the crossbow bolt, so you can't get around needing a bolt with Eschew Materials.

[Seharvepernfan]

Scorching Ray is my go-to wand-slinger spell. Especially if you increase the caster level (18th is good) and add Empower. If you're using Magic of Faerun, put a gem on it to increase it's CL a bit more. Get the double-wand wielder feat. Heh, be a rogue!

If you elementally-substitute it for sonic, it's pretty much a gun. I don't think you're going to fine anything better.

[TuggyNE]

Effects that do not describe a grenade-like, bullet-like, or ray-like means to get from you to their destination do not require true line-of-effect and only need line-of-sight (even if that line-of-sight is through a glass window, a screen, or scry) so long as the physical destination is within the effect’s stated physical range ignoring obstacles (Yes, this means you’ll often have to look up the flavor text for each effect if it’s from the SRD, but that’s nothing new). If this puzzles you, you can think of it as “the influence of your magic does not spread beyond the physical range of the spell”.
[…]
Realize that a lot of psionic powers do not mention any sort of need for a true line-of-effect. Additionally, the psionic character could “dispense with displays” (and generally will always attempt to anyway since there’s no negative cost for failure) to completely remove that display. However, if the power’s description directly describes a grenade-like, bullet-like, or ray-like effect as a means for the power to get from the manifester to the destination, then the dispense with display option will not dispense with that aspect of the display (and thus, still requires true line-of-effect.

Actually, that's not correct; spells and powers always need line of effect unless they specifically say (or very strongly imply) that they don't.


Line of Effect
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a power can affect. A solid barrier cancels a line of effect, but it is not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you manifest a power on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any power you manifest.

A burst, cone, or emanation power affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a power’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for the purpose of determining a power’s line of effect.

The text in Spell Descriptions is very similar.

[Maginomicon]

Actually, that's not correct; spells and powers always need line of effect unless they specifically say (or very strongly imply) that they don't.

We're dealing with guns here. Certain liberties can be taken within house rules (which is what you were quoting) with "line of effect vs line of sight". With the advent of glass windows, periscopes, scrying pools, and other means of acquiring line of sight it's reasonable to guess that you can start to treat certain things as only needing line of sight and being within range but not needing line of effect.

The trick to making it fair is to not let the range of the effect start at the scryed location but at you (as it always has been).

Besides, the purpose of that part was to provide insight as to what you can or more-importantly can't make into a gun.

[TuggyNE]

We're dealing with guns here. Certain liberties can be taken within house rules (which is what you were quoting) with "line of effect vs line of sight". With the advent of glass windows, periscopes, scrying pools, and other means of acquiring line of sight it's reasonable to guess that you can start to treat certain things as only needing line of sight and being within range but not needing line of effect.

Ah. It was entirely unclear to me whether those were deliberate changes to existing rules, or simply misapprehensions of existing rules; the latter seemed frankly more likely, since it's not the first time I've seen that.

I might suggest adapting rules from lightning bolt to let guns fire through transparent obstacles if they do enough damage. Of course, that still means wall of force would be an effective barrier, but isn't that a good thing?

[killem2]

Could the trigger mechanism from traps be used to fire magic effects?

[Lightlawbliss]

a thought: If wands are as common as you are saying, a nicely cut stick clearly visible could be enough to stop minor threats for next to nothing.

Edit: also, a wand of a cure spell (minor or light most likely) can be a very solid form of defense.

[Eslin]

I'm more looking for wands to fill the same sort of niche guns do - cheap, easy to use and deadly at range. Not trying to actually imitate guns with wands, should have made that clear.

[Waitingnomad]

If you want to implement them into society as a whole, then you could houserule a little bit to allow for things like masterwork wands, 'pistol' wands etc. and perhaps shape the wands to resemble firearms. This would reflect the increased levels of research and development put into developing wands (as you seem to be implying that a sort of economy is being built around them, or at least they are becoming a mass produced commodity), and a firearm-shaped wand seems only a logical development for wands designed specifically as ranged weapons, as handles, iron sights, 'triggers' etc. exist because they make the wand easier to operate simply and accurately. This also reflect a difference between wands designed to generally produce X magic effect e.g. CLW and wands designed for offensive ranged use. Of course, wands of CLW could be developed as anti-undead weapons also. Such additions may afford varying bonuses like +1 to hit for a wand with sights, or 'shotgun' wands affording +1 to hit at close distances but -1 at long and so on. It depends how much effort you want to put into this aspect, should it appeal to you.

It seems that you could reflect their influence or pervasiveness in society on a greater scale by allowing for varying types of wands for different purposes, e.g. civilian use, military use, police use and so on. Whether this manifests itself in a real-world fashion, such as permits for varying levels of 'wand' depending on the scale of their effect, not unlike gun licensing in the US, or simply in a 'these are the wands more generally used or preferred by certain groups' (probably my preferred way) is up to you as DM.

This may be divvied up as:
Tier 1 wands; simple, cheap and easy to come by. Anyone can own one, and they are often purchased by average citizens looking for a method of home-protection but unable to afford costly weapons training.
Typically nonlethal, and may include: Wand of Flare/Acid Splash/Daze/Ray of Frost

Tier 2 wands; still simple and relatively inexpensive, but more costly than their Tier 1 counterparts. These are more commonly owned by more well-off individuals such as shopowners or traders, who equally have a greater need to protect themselves and their stock, and are very rarely possessed by lowly villagers. Lethal variants may also be the wand of choice for frontline infantry (perhaps with included bayonet), and nonlethal options are commonly used by police forces for riot control. Can be modified as such to include a bayonet, or secreted in wand compartments of walking sticks etc.
May include: Wand of Magic Missile/Kelgor's Fire Bolt/ Shocking grasp (think taser)/ Colour Spray/ Ray of Enfeeblement

Tier 3 wands; More commonly owned by nobles or particularly well-off traders, who may carry these items for self-defence, protection of their stock, to show off to friends or to arm their bodyguards with. Elite troops such as commando units or special forces may utilise such wands during warfare, and the police forces of larger towns and cities may own a small number of these for use during riots or emergency response to dangerous criminals. These are costly to produce and to own.
May include: Wand of Melf's Acid Arrow/Glitterdust/Web/Gust of Wind/Scorching Ray/Blindness/Deafness/Scare

Lethal variants of these may be more costly, or more tightly controlled, and nonlethal options may typically be carried by young ladies in order to protect themselves against criminals. SImilarly, sale of wands to criminals may be limited/restricted or the sale of more dangerous or 'illegal' wands like invisibility or knock (which may have been outlawed to the general public due to their use almost exclusively in illegal activities) could be restricted to 'black market' wand salesmen etc. Similarly, the power levels and availability of the wands could be raised or lowered accordingly to what you deem appropriate as DM to the power level of the magic in your campaign (e.g. if it wouldn't be unusual for a farm labourer to come into possession of a Wand of Magic Missile), or if higher level wands like Wands of Fireball are more common, rather than being limited for use as magical artillery in warfare (think magical tanks!).

[Fouredged Sword]

Another thing to consider is assault weaponry.

By this I mean staves. They function as melee weapons as well as more powerful attack weapons.

A staff of scorching ray and fireball could be an effective artillery weapon for a squad of soldiers. It would be given to a high casting stat / low level caster with weaponlike spell centered feats.

A staff with quicken magic missile would also be nice for close in fighting by a quarterstaff wielder. Steady damage that adds to your threat.

[nedz]

Sonic Snap, by itself, would make for a cheap pop-gun.

Why has no one mentioned Enervation yet ? It's at the top end of wand space but it's very good.

[Lightlawbliss]

another fact alot of people seem to overlook is 2.4 wands=1 idem of on command (for price) and command needs no umd. An idem of 2 uses a day on command is just under the priceof a wand as well. (assuming dmg guidelines are used). Depending on expected use (and the prices in your game), a wand might not be the best choice.

[ahenobarbi]

another fact alot of people seem to overlook is 2.4 wands=1 idem of on command (for price) and command needs no umd. An idem of 2 uses a day on command is just under the priceof a wand as well. (assuming dmg guidelines are used). Depending on expected use (and the prices in your game), a wand might not be the best choice.



Or you could use a partially charged wand (let'ssay with 5 charges - more than enough for an encounter and much cheaper).

[Lightlawbliss]

Or you could use a partially charged wand (let'ssay with 5 charges - more than enough for an encounter and much cheaper).

that would be a choice too. As I said: it depends on expected use.