[Fixin' Pathfinder] Part 1: Barbarian

[Fedorchik]

Overall I like changes made to barbarian. But there are some issues, that make really fragile, while he was supposed to be tough and strong ;)

Issue #1 - End rage death
This is the main barbarian problem. If he gets knocked out by hit point damage he's probably dead at low levels and he's definitely dead at mid-high levels.

Let's look at this problem a little closer:
Rage gives barbarian bonus to his Con score, which gives him bonus HP. When rage ends this hit points are subtracted from his current hit points. Rage gives +2 HP/HD at levels 1-10, +3 HP/HD at levels 11-19 and +4 HP/HD at level 20.
So, rage makes barbarian lose up to 20 hit points, greater rage - up to 57 and Mighty rage - 80.

Available methods to prevent from dying:
Guarded Life [Rage Power] - prevents (converts it to nonlethal) 1 damage/level when knocked to negative HP.
Guarded Life, Greater [Rage Power] - prevents 2 damage/level when knocked to negative HP.
Raging Vitality [Feat] - allows you to continue rage while unconscious.

Assuming minimum Con score for barbarian around 14 and usual in-game score around 18 at low-mid levels and up to 26 at mid-high levels:
Guarded Life will probably save barbarian's life till level 11, where it just stops working. Greater Guarded Life works a little longer, but it won't save him at really high levels.Actually, as written it won't prevent 'damage' caused by hit point loss due to end of rage.
Raging Vitality works like charm, but it burns like hell through barbarians not-so-large rage rounds pool. And we still wonder why is this a feat and not integrated into rage?

Possible solutions:
1. Give barbarian more negative hit points to survive this.
Simplest way. Just make him more durable even if he's below 0. This may be a general upgrade for all PCs (like houserule mentioned by Frosty below), or just barbarian-specific upgrade.
If we chose this route, it could be something like:
Add following text in the end of Rage class feature description
Barbarians are extremely durable and will die only when their negative hit points reach double his Constitution score. This increases to triple his Constitution score at level 11 and to quadruple his Constitution score at level 20.
Personally I don't like this option because it messes with many things. Like making stabilization rolls. It also removes all that tension when a party member is dying from hit point loss - if he has ~30 rounds to bleed you'll probably finish this combat and loot enemy corpses before healing him.

2. Let him continue raging while unconscious.
No explanation needed. I just add that feat Raging Vitality needs some little boost instead of lost functionality. Something like fast healing 1/2/3 (or even 2/4/6) while raging seems like a good addition.

3. Don't subtract 'bonus' hit points while on negative HP.
This is quick and dirty way to completely fix the problem. Somehow I just don't like it. Probably because this makes things like rage power 'Guarded Life' obsolete.

4. Upgrade existing Rage Powers, making them mandatory for barbarian who wants to live, but be actually effective.
First, make rage powers Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life also 'absorb' hit point loss from Rage.
Second - make numbers greater:
2/3/4 hit points per level based on Rage quality (normal/greater/mighty) for Guarded Life will make you forget about 'End rage death' forever. Not sure what to do with Greater Guarded Life rage power - adding +2 to Guarded Life numbers seems right, but I'm concerned about making Barbarian unnecessary tanky with this ability.

Issue #2 - Rage cycling
This definitely was supposed to be a legit tactic. But it's not viable because of how long post-Rage fatigue lasts. And Tireless Rage comes into play too late.
Solutions:
I'm not really sure about this issue and how to fix it due to lack of in-game experience. I'll only show some general solutions to this and I hope to get some feedback to improve them.
1. Reduce fatigued time to 1 round or 1 round per round spent raging.
2. Allow Barbarian to 'break' fatigued condition caused by rage to initiate new rage using extra turns (probably 1 or 2 extra turns). This will burn his turns pretty fast to cycle through rage effectively.
3. Move Tireless Rage into play much earlier. Levels 13, 9, 7 or 5 look like a good spot to me. Balance issues though.
4. Make 1/rage powers 1/X rounds, where X is 1, or 3, depending on how much you love barbarian.

Issue #3 - Rage duration
Generally speaking I think rage has enough rounds as it is. On the other hand, 3.5 Barbarian had a tons more duration in rounds. By 20th level PF barb has 22+Con rage rounds/day, while 3.5 barb has 42+Con*6 rounds/day (well, considering common 3.5 builds it's more like 20+Con*4). This is a HUGE difference.Ooops! Can't do numbers ;) PF Barbarian actually gets 42+Con Rage rounds. The biggest difference is how much this number can be increased. 3.5 Extra Rage gave you 2 more uses of Rage per day, which translates into 14+Con*2 extra rounds per feat, while PF version gives flat +6.
Solution
As I stated before, I don't think this fix is really needed. But it may be good option if we'll end using second option for 'rage cycling' issue.
I think base progression should not be changed. Good choice is to insert Con multipliers at some levels. So the final amount would be something like 42+4*Con rounds per day.
I think 'Extra Rage' feat is ridiculous. This should give you 2+1 per barbarian level rounds per day.

Issue #4 - Rage is a morale bonus
This slipped from me. Anyway, I think this was actually intended.
Except for Superstitious rage power. For example, class mechanic of 'Swordlord' (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/aldori-swordlord) prestige class suggests he can break barbarian's Rage with his Shatter Confidence ability.

Solution
1. Leave as it is. Make Superstitious rage power to stack with normal rage bonus.
This only works if nothing gives moral bonuses to ability scores. AFAIK only rage does that.
2. Make it all untyped. F@#k that Swordlord, no one plays it anyway.

[Fedorchik]

Here is some variant houserules based on possible solutions from above.

Variant 1
Rage Gives untyped bonuses to ability score, but morale bonus on Will saves. At level 7 he adds double his Con modifier to rounds of rage per day? this increases to triple at level 13 and quadruple at level 19.
If barbarian is brought below 0 hit points or becomes unconscious, he may continue to rage up to his base constitution modifier rounds (without bonuses from Rage). This rounds cost him 2 rounds for 1. (optional)
Rage Powers 1/rage rage powers are usable 1/2 rounds while in rage. You can still bring in rage cycling to use them each round.
Superstitious Bonuses from this rage power stacks with rage bonus to Will saves.
Raging Vitality Allows raging while unconscious as long as you want (at normal cost) and also gives fast healing 1 while raging. (only one of two blue options)

[Frosty]

I don't personally have a problem with the unconscious problem, but that is due to a houserule I play with. The rule being that characters don't due until they are at negative hp equal to 1/3 of their normal maximum hitpoints.

[Raimun]

The only fix that would make any sense at all would be to make the "Rage-HP" to be temporary hit points.

So a Barbarian would lose "Rage-HP" first and when he's knocked unconscious he doesn't lose any hit points.

Yes, it would create balance issues.

No, I wouldn't care.

Meanwhile, I'll keep using Raging Vitality and hoping they don't get the cleric.

[Fedorchik]

Finished my initial list of 'issues' and possible solutions to them! Waiting for feedback!


The only fix that would make any sense at all would be to make the "Rage-HP" to be temporary hit points.

So a Barbarian would lose "Rage-HP" first and when he's knocked unconscious he doesn't lose any hit points.

Yes, it would create balance issues.

No, I wouldn't care.

Meanwhile, I'll keep using Raging Vitality and hoping they don't get the cleric.
This option was on my list too, but than I realized that it'l make Barbarian pretty damn unkillable once he gets some kind of fatigue immunity.
btw: You can fix it and still use Raging Vitality! :smallbiggrin:

[Deepbluediver]

Two thoughts; since Barbarian HP is NOT temporary HP, and has it's own set of rules anyway, just include a line that HP subtraction at the end of a rage cannot reduce you below 0 or -5 or whatever number you want. So you might be unconcious and/or dying, but you won't be dead provided someone else can come help you out.

Second, I think this thread would do better in the Homebrew forum; that's where the class-fixes are supposed to go. You should petition a mod to move it.

[SSGoW]

Two thoughts; since Barbarian HP is NOT temporary HP, and has it's own set of rules anyway, just include a line that HP subtraction at the end of a rage cannot reduce you below 0 or -5 or whatever number you want. So you might be unconcious and/or dying, but you won't be dead provided someone else can come help you out.

Second, I think this thread would do better in the Homebrew forum; that's where the class-fixes are supposed to go. You should petition a mod to move it.

Love it. I'm so putting this in all my games for now on.

[Certified]

Part of the argument being made in this thread is that the Barbarian class should be self sufficient. My perspective is a little different, to use an analogy you can think of a Barbarian's rage as "running hot" while you get better performance there are maintenance issues that arise.

One needs either a cooling system or someone there to monitor things and make sure everything functions well. To translate this into Pathfinder terms this means taking things like Beast Totem, Eater of Magic, Energy Absorption, Guarded Life, Regenerative Vigor, Renewed Vigor, and Raging Vitality, if you want to play it safe, or, having a Cleric, Bard, or other party member capable of healing you.

None of these methods are foolproof, however, having all three in play makes for a fairly safe Rage, at the cost of some power output. However, if one is playing a Barbarian, why are you playing it safe? Namby Pamby fighters wear armour, and hide behind shields, to protect themselves and be safe. Barbarians crush and smash and obliterate everything that stands in their way.

The Barbarian obtains victory through overwhelming offense. They are not safe, they are not tame, they are very dangerous things that once you set one off look out. You don't worry about dying as a Barbarian, you worry about how quickly you can kill the beast in front of you, so you can get on with killing the beast behind it.

This is part of the party dynamic, each character fills a role. If one is considering a Barbarian lets hope someone else is looking at a Cleric because, healing, ain't no Barbarian got time for that.

Note: Namby Pamby exceptions include Beast Totem, Eater of Magic, Energy Absorption as they each lead to either other bonuses or breath weapons.

[SSGoW]

Part of the argument being made in this thread is that the Barbarian class should be self sufficient. My perspective is a little different, to use an analogy you can think of a Barbarian's rage as "running hot" while you get better performance there are maintenance issues that arise.

One needs either a cooling system or someone there to monitor things and make sure everything functions well. To translate this into Pathfinder terms this means taking things like Beast Totem, Eater of Magic, Energy Absorption, Guarded Life, Regenerative Vigor, Renewed Vigor, and Raging Vitality, if you want to play it safe, or, having a Cleric, Bard, or other party member capable of healing you.

None of these methods are foolproof, however, having all three in play makes for a fairly safe Rage, at the cost of some power output. However, if one is playing a Barbarian, why are you playing it safe? Namby Pamby fighters wear armour, and hide behind shields, to protect themselves and be safe. Barbarians crush and smash and obliterate everything that stands in their way.

The Barbarian obtains victory through overwhelming offense. They are not safe, they are not tame, they are very dangerous things that once you set one off look out. You don't worry about dying as a Barbarian, you worry about how quickly you can kill the beast in front of you, so you can get on with killing the beast behind it.

This is part of the party dynamic, each character fills a role. If one is considering a Barbarian lets hope someone else is looking at a Cleric because, healing, ain't no Barbarian got time for that.

Note: Namby Pamby exceptions include Beast Totem, Eater of Magic, Energy Absorption as they each lead to either other bonuses or breath weapons.

Sooo what's the drawbacks for being a cleric, druid, wizard, or yeah you see where this is going...

Why should a class feature of the Barbarian be this lethal when other classes are MORE powerful with less chance of killing themselves with their own class features?

[Certified]

Sooo what's the drawbacks for being a cleric, druid, wizard, or yeah you see where this is going...

Why should a class feature of the Barbarian be this lethal when other classes are MORE powerful with less chance of killing themselves with their own class features?

Each class presents it's own challenges and rewards. Without getting into the Tiers concept I'll talk a bit about each class mentioned regarding strengths and weaknesses and how this plays into the group dynamic.

Cleric, clerics have a moderate defense and multiple ways to boost overall defensive capability such as Sanctuary. Their primary focus is not damage, but damage mitigation and party augmentation. Yes a cleric can buff themselves and maintain self sufficiency, however, they are better served by augmenting party members better suited for the role, such as the Barbarian. While they have a higher survivability their damage output, should, be less than a wizard or martial class. The notable exception to this is undead and depending on the cleric build this may be expanded to Outsiders, or Elemental type creates. This tends to be a less popular option unless campaign specific.

Druid, this is really a mixed bag, Pathfinder adjusted how Wild Shape worked in a subtle, but significant way. With that in mind the Druid remains one of the most versatile casters in the game. They are the quintessential party in a box with the ability to bring out creature after creature to swarm the battlefield. The Druid's spell list is a diverse, with less healing than the Cleric, but greater damage output, in the right environments. It's hard to peg definitive downsides for the Druid, other than needing to understand your spell selection which can be more complicated that say a Cleric or a Blasting Sorcerer. They also suffer from a lower AC, but can compensate for this, again we go to understanding the spell list. One could consider the Druid's issue, a ramp up time as he summons creature after creature, during this period someone with a high damage output and clear shot can make quick work of the Druid, say a Spell breaking Fighter or Barbarian.

Wizard, and here we have the king of casters. Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty hit die. The Wizards spell list is crippling for someone that can plan ahead or has time to prepare there is little they cannot overcome. However, caught in an unplanned situation the Wizard can be dispatched, quickly. Here speed is essential, before a Wizard can bring their real defenses online.

In all three cases Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Spellbreaker can, lock down casters or turn a battle quickly if the primary casters have time to turn up self buffs.

[Eldonauran]

If I had to make a house rule to 'fix' the barbarian issues with dying after a rage, I would probably do something like this:

Hit points gained during rage would be treated differently. These hitpoints are lost last. Should the barbarian be reduced below zero HP, these hitpoints act as a buffer between the character and death. If the rage ends while below zero hit points, the bonus HP is removed and the character's HP are 'reset' to what they would be normally, without counting the bonus HP.

Example:

80 HP normally, 14 CON score. -14 HP = Death
Rage gives +16 HP, (now 18 CON and -18 to die) -34 = Death
Character is at -31 HP when rage ends, HP is changed to -11 and they die at -14, as normal.

A character with Die-hard would effectively gain a LOT of use from this rule. Perhaps making it a feat that is very appealing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm sorry but I don't see a big problem here.

I mean if you are hitting zero HP, you clearly were already loosing and maybe should have Withdrawn to over by the Cleric or otherwise out of danger with your fast movement. You are living on borrowed life and you may be raging but are not utterly mindless. :smallwink:

Or you could take Diehard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/diehard---final). For this exact reason. Presuming Human its available from level 1, you think that +3 damage from PA is worth more then your life?

[Raimun]

I'm sorry but I don't see a big problem here.

I mean if you are hitting zero HP, you clearly were already loosing and maybe should have Withdrawn to over by the Cleric or otherwise out of danger with your fast movement. You are living on borrowed life and you may be raging but are not utterly mindless. :smallwink:

Or you could take Diehard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/diehard---final). For this exact reason. Presuming Human its available from level 1, you think that +3 damage from PA is worth more then your life?

With...drawn? Is that french? Swedish?

I'm just kidding but honestly, you can't plan for everything. Sometimes you're killing foes left and right and suddenly: BAM! You get hit by two greataxe criticals in one round, after you have already acted.

Besides, if getting yourself killed directly by one of your basic abilities isn't a problem, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

[Certified]

With...drawn? Is that french? Swedish?

I'm just kidding but honestly, you can't plan for everything. Sometimes you're killing foes left and right and suddenly: BAM! You get hit by two greataxe criticals in one round, after you have already acted.

Besides, if getting yourself killed directly by one of your basic abilities isn't a problem, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

If you think the risk versus reward is too high, mitigate the risk, Barbarians have multiple ways to do this, as I tried to outline. However, I think if you're too worried about defending as a Barbarian you may be missing out on the joys of Barbarianness.

[Soras Teva Gee]

With...drawn? Is that french? Swedish?

I'm just kidding but honestly, you can't plan for everything. Sometimes you're killing foes left and right and suddenly: BAM! You get hit by two greataxe criticals in one round, after you have already acted.

Besides, if getting yourself killed directly by one of your basic abilities isn't a problem, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

Allow me to pose the question: How much HP does dropping out of Rage cost you?

The answer is depending on level 4, 6, and 8 HP. Because you only die not when you drop to negative but when you have one more then your Con score. And those are the Rage modifiers to that. Those are the only HP that actually matter because beyond them is irrelevant... you were already dead.

That sounds to me like a reasonable tradeoff for what more often then not going to be extra rounds of action beyond what you had to begin with.

[Raimun]

If you think the risk versus reward is too high, mitigate the risk, Barbarians have multiple ways to do this, as I tried to outline. However, I think if you're too worried about defending as a Barbarian you may be missing out on the joys of Barbarianness.

Oh, I'm not worried. My AC is rubbish but I can usually beat the bad guys dead before they try to do the same.

I have Raging Vitality just in case but I'd imagine not every starting barbarian can figure out why it is so vital.

I'll admit it. I want melee to have nice things too. And I think Barbarian should be the toughest son of a... classy lady there is.

[Curious]

Honestly, to fix the rage hit point issue, I'd do two things;

1. Rage hit points are temporary.
2. Temporary hit points gained through raging do not stack with each other; if you begin a new rage while you still have temporary hit points remaining from your previous rage, your pool of temporary hit points resets to "full."

[zlefin]

the rage thing is kinda realistic as is actually; you're mortally wounded, but due to your rage and adrenalin you keep going; once that ends, you fall, and finish bleeding out.
A simpler method for balance might be to say most wounds don't instantly kill you when you drop to the lethal levels; unless it's extreme overkill. Instead you die over the course of a minute as you continue to bleed out more and stopped breathing/heartbeat. Then there's a one minute period to apply piles of magic healing to keep you from going fully dead.

[Raimun]

Actually, now that I think about it, Rage-hp should be still different than normal temporary hit points.

You keep track of your Rage-hp and normal hp separately. When you lose hit points, you lose Rage-hp first. When your Rage ends, you lose all of your Rage-hp, if you have any left. If you don't have any Rage-hp left, you don't lose any hp.

[Keneth]

I don't think any of the proposed issues are actual issues. End rage death is easily avoidable, rage cycling is simple to achieve, and there should be more than enough rage rounds for any would-be adventurer. I can see how people might want to fix the hp drop, but the other two don't need a fix at all.

There's plenty of rage powers and archetypes that could be improved though, along with some general rules for mundane fighting.

[SSGoW]

Each class presents it's own challenges and rewards. Without getting into the Tiers concept I'll talk a bit about each class mentioned regarding strengths and weaknesses and how this plays into the group dynamic.

Cleric, clerics have a moderate defense and multiple ways to boost overall defensive capability such as Sanctuary. Their primary focus is not damage, but damage mitigation and party augmentation. Yes a cleric can buff themselves and maintain self sufficiency, however, they are better served by augmenting party members better suited for the role, such as the Barbarian. While they have a higher survivability their damage output, should, be less than a wizard or martial class. The notable exception to this is undead and depending on the cleric build this may be expanded to Outsiders, or Elemental type creates. This tends to be a less popular option unless campaign specific.

Druid, this is really a mixed bag, Pathfinder adjusted how Wild Shape worked in a subtle, but significant way. With that in mind the Druid remains one of the most versatile casters in the game. They are the quintessential party in a box with the ability to bring out creature after creature to swarm the battlefield. The Druid's spell list is a diverse, with less healing than the Cleric, but greater damage output, in the right environments. It's hard to peg definitive downsides for the Druid, other than needing to understand your spell selection which can be more complicated that say a Cleric or a Blasting Sorcerer. They also suffer from a lower AC, but can compensate for this, again we go to understanding the spell list. One could consider the Druid's issue, a ramp up time as he summons creature after creature, during this period someone with a high damage output and clear shot can make quick work of the Druid, say a Spell breaking Fighter or Barbarian.

Wizard, and here we have the king of casters. Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty hit die. The Wizards spell list is crippling for someone that can plan ahead or has time to prepare there is little they cannot overcome. However, caught in an unplanned situation the Wizard can be dispatched, quickly. Here speed is essential, before a Wizard can bring their real defenses online.

In all three cases Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Spellbreaker can, lock down casters or turn a battle quickly if the primary casters have time to turn up self buffs.

My point was that no other class has a feature that causes them to Die. Running out of Spells, Turn Attempts, Wildshapes, or whatever doesn't pose a tthreat of death.

Clerics are still heavy armored meat sticks when they don't have spells.

Druids have a fighter as a class feature backing them up.

Wizard, well the wizard doesn't run out of spells on the battlefield. The Wizard always has one last spell to get him the hell out of dodge.

Most casters don't really need to plan ahead of time since they have a set list of spells that are for any given purpose. Magic items are cheap after all.

I wasn't saying Barbarian vs. Others.

I was saying is that the Barbarian has a class feature that kills the user. No other class comes close to that. No other class has a class feature that is such a drawback as the barbarian.

A Barbarian is up from in melee and will get hit and take HP damage. What class feature of the casters above will kill them? And if you say "spells" you are wrong because there are a TON of spells that they can cast without causing any harm. Also many of the harmful spells are easily mitigated... Teleportation and Plan Shift aren't that dangerous and Planar Binding is laughable.

So I ask, what is the drawback to being any other class?

*Do note that I'm sure somewhere there is a class feature that hurts the user a la Hell Fire Warlock from 3.5, but that is a prestige class and not a core class.

[zlefin]

I dispute your definition.
It's not a class feature that causes the character to die; it's a class feature that prevents a character from dying to lethal damage temporarily.
Much like diehard does.

[Keneth]

It's not the rage that kills the barbarian, it's the damage. Imagine if the description said something like this: You don't get extra hit points, instead you can fight normally until you reach -Con hit points. Would you still be complaining that you die instantly? That's basically what happens with a barbarian, you get extra hit points with each level, but each level also reduces the buffer zone at the end of rage. And even that can be easily remedied.

[Karoht]

INB4 Iron Heart Surge

Joking aside, the rage/unconscious issue is easily fixed as afformentioned.
Rage cycling starts as early as you have 8K to buy a certain Ioun Stone and the rage power at level 8. Combo and source under spoiler tag.

Internal Fortitude available at Barbarian 8. Makes you immune to the Sickened/Nauseated conditions.
Flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun Stone (8000gp) turns fatigued/exhausted into sickened/nauseated.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex


But that does feel like a rather... ineligant solution. It feels more like a workaround, not an actual encouraged thing. Changing the level of Tireless Rage strikes me as a better solution. Having the fatigue be something commensurate with the duration/intensity of the rage seems logical and fair.

[Raimun]

One thing I'd like to add. There exists a solution to the instant death at unconsciousness.

Being an Urban Barbarian. They get all the good things of the rage (+X to STR) without any of that instant death insanity... unless they choose to... :smallamused:

Edit: Yet, that's not the universal solution. They're less primal than normal barbarians. Even if they're still way more primal than other classes.

Alas, I didn't have the option when I made my latest barbarian but I will make one the next I'll roll a barbarian... Especially since I have some inspiration apart from mechanics.

[grarrrg]

Issue #2 - Rage cycling
This definitely was supposed to be a legit tactic. But it's not viable because of how long post-Rage fatigue lasts. And Tireless Rage comes into play too late.

Supposed to be a legit tactic? Maybe.
Supposed to be a continuously abused tactic? No.

Someone also overlooked the "Roused Anger" rage power, which lets you Rage while Fatigued. Afterwards you become Exhausted instead of Fatigued, but it does give you 1 Extra "use of Rage" per Rage.

That, and there are SOOooooOOO many ways to get Immunity to Fatigued/Exhausted.
The problem is not "I want to Rage-Cycle" but more, "_How_ do I want to Rage-Cycle".


Issue #3 - Rage duration
Generally speaking I think rage has enough rounds as it is. On the other hand, 3.5 Barbarian had a tons more duration in rounds. By 20th level PF barb has 22+Con rage rounds/day

You get 2 Rage Rounds every level, not 1.
42+CON rounds at level 20.
If anything, I'd leave the Level based rounds alone, and give a boon towards the CON rounds.

[Keneth]

Rage cycling starts as early as you have 8K

That's one way, but you can get it even sooner with a level of oracle (with an added bonus of qualifying for the Rage Prophet PRC). I'm pretty sure I even saw 1st level rage cycler pulling some shenanigans with consumables; Wasn't as efficient, but it worked. So yeah, there's plenty of cheap and early ways to rage cycle.

[grarrrg]

That's one way, but you can get it even sooner with a level of oracle (with an added bonus of qualifying for the Rage Prophet PRC).

Qualifying for Rage Prophet is not a bonus...

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. Rage Death

Solution: Get rid of the unconscious ends rage bit that PF added. Done.

2. Rage Cycling

Solution: Make all 1/rage powers 1/round instead. That's what rage cycling is used for, so it makes cycling unnecessary. None of the 1/rage powers are even broken as 1/round; a lot are still abysmal, in fact.

3. Rage Duration

Solution: Increase it, it is a bit too small. 6 rounds + 3 rounds per day per Barb level past 1 + (Raging) Con mod per day sounds good to me. With a raging Con of 24, that'd be 70 rounds/day at level 20, still not an outrageous amount.

* 4. Morale bonus NOT ADDRESSED IN OP *

This also bothers the hell out of me. It's an unnecessary change, causes all sorts of stacking issues (including with the Superstitious rage power! not just outside things!), and means getting mind-affecting immunity prevents you from raging.

Solution: Make the rage bonuses untyped, like in 3E. Simple. Done.

[Certified]

It's not the rage that kills the barbarian, it's the damage. Imagine if the description said something like this: You don't get extra hit points, instead you can fight normally until you reach -Con hit points. Would you still be complaining that you die instantly? That's basically what happens with a barbarian, you get extra hit points with each level, but each level also reduces the buffer zone at the end of rage. And even that can be easily remedied.

It's not the fall it's the landing.

As to my previous post, my point is that no class is perfect, and even full progression casters can be cut down or rendered ineffective. The Barbarian, or his teammates need to maintain an awareness of his status to prevent End or Rage Death. However, I'd also like to point out, as you move into the higher levels Death is really just a negative condition and easily remedied.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's not the fall it's the landing.

As to my previous post, my point is that no class is perfect, and even full progression casters can be cut down or rendered ineffective. The Barbarian, or his teammates need to maintain an awareness of his status to prevent End or Rage Death. However, I'd also like to point out, as you move into the higher levels Death is really just a negative condition and easily remedied.

In this case it would be seem to be the point. You can push yourself harder and farther, but not without drawbacks.

I dare say I even like it the mighty warrior slaughtering a horde of foes beyond what anyone else could have endured then when the last foe falls the warrior looks around and see's the job is done then drops.... no that doesn't drip with manly flavor. None at all.

[Fedorchik]

This maintenance thing hit right when I was writing some new stuff, so I took a break for a day =/

Fixed some mistakes. Posted first variant of actual houserule in second post.
Sorry for not answering on most comments. This thing takes surprisingly many time from me to do.


the rage thing is kinda realistic as is actually; you're mortally wounded, but due to your rage and adrenalin you keep going; once that ends, you fall, and finish bleeding out.
Forcing realistic things into unrealistic games is what makes Barabarians to die. There are people who want PF to be realistic, but it simply doesn't work.

[KutuluKultist]

Rage Death: Just replace the +4 CON with +2 to fortitude saves and +2 temporary HP/HD. Maybe make this bonus untyped.

Rage Powers: Don't see these as very problematic, but why not replace 1/rage with a cost in rage rounds? 4 extra rounds? May as high as 6? This is a substantial cost, in particular because it brings fatigue closer, but it allows for tactical flexibility without having the extra book keeping of counting rounds since last used.

[Fedorchik]

Rage Death: Just replace the +4 CON with +2 to fortitude saves and +2 temporary HP/HD. Maybe make this bonus untyped.
This still allows to cycle through multiple rages to benefit from this temporary HP multiple times. And this makes already tough barb almost unkillable if done right.


Rage Powers: Don't see these as very problematic, but why not replace 1/rage with a cost in rage rounds? 4 extra rounds? May as high as 6? This is a substantial cost, in particular because it brings fatigue closer, but it allows for tactical flexibility without having the extra book keeping of counting rounds since last used.
Good point. I'll think abut it.

[Kudaku]

Besides, if getting yourself killed directly by one of your basic abilities isn't a problem, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

Completely unrelated to the thread topic, but I just had to:


True Sacrifice (Su)

At 20th level, in a final selfless act, a monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life, as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore, the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down again. All written mentions of his name become nothing more than a blank space.

[KutuluKultist]

This still allows to cycle through multiple rages to benefit from this temporary HP multiple times. And this makes already tough barb almost unkillable if done right.


Rage cycling indeed makes this problematic. Then again, rage cycling has always seemed kind of iffy to me. Hm. I still think temporary HP are the best solution to the problem since it's a well known mechanic and fits with what the barbarian does.
Given my suggestion for 1/rage powers, I'd venture as far as to suggest dropping the option to rage cycle completely. Tireless rage can stay but rage itself should get an added condition: "Once you stop raging, you cannot start another rage for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of rounds your were raging. During that time you are also fatigued." or something similar.
Tireless rage would remove the fatigue, but not the cool down period and could thus easily come by level 5.

[Deepbluediver]

This still allows to cycle through multiple rages to benefit from this temporary HP multiple times. And this makes already tough barb almost unkillable if done right.

Not a rage-cycling expert, but what about something like a rising condition as you blow through rage-uses?

Basically, when you end a rage you are Fatigued, if you activate rage again while still fatigued, when it ends you are exhausted. If you activate rage again while still exhausted, when it ends you are unconscious.

If you manage to activate rage while unconscious (:smalltongue:) when it ends you are dead.


Something like that?
By the time you get to the point where raging no longer triggers the fatigue condition, it's hardly the most broken thing in the game, and you can still kill a Barbarian, just not easily through HP damage.

[Starbuck_II]

* 4. Morale bonus NOT ADDRESSED IN OP *

This also bothers the hell out of me. It's an unnecessary change, causes all sorts of stacking issues (including with the Superstitious rage power! not just outside things!), and means getting mind-affecting immunity prevents you from raging.

Solution: Make the rage bonuses untyped, like in 3E. Simple. Done.

But then the 1st level Bard/Cleric spell Moment of Greatness doesn't buff the Barbarian's rage. It double the bonus for 1 use (like an attack) so you double range buffs for 1 attack.
Assuming +6 Str Rage, you just gave +3 hit and 3-4 damage (1.5 str makes 3 a 4). Pretty nice for a 1st level spell.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd prefer to have rage function properly in general and with various other sources of morale bonuses than to keep it nonfunctional in order to have some splatbook spell that only lasts for one attack anyway work. :smallfrown:

[Karoht]

Also, undead don't benefit from rage if it is a morale bonus.
Ergo undead barbarians are not a thing.
After seeing a Vampire Barbarian (who the DM handwaved could have his rage) in action, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.