Abrupt jaunt or rapid summons?

[Invader]

That's pretty much it. Working on the assumption that you're playing a conjurer focused on summon monster which ACF would you choose. AJ sends like it would be more useful but RS would be used way more and I'll note that the +1 spell level for rapid summons has been negated.

[eggynack]

I'd probably go with rapid summons. If I'm building a wizard focused on summoning, the only reason I'd go with a wizard over another class is the fact that rapid summoning is a thing. It's one of the advantages that they have over druids in those terms. Abrupt jaunt is probably better, but I've always thought that the standard action summoning thing was super nifty.

[SamBurke]

AJ is a great get of jail card, and has some Out of Combat uses.

Rapid Summons is something you would use pretty much every time, but it's not that "OOOOOOOOH". Not a fun bonus, just a crunchy one.

I'd go for Abrupt, because when ya need it, ya NEED it.

[prufock]

Rapid Summons. Abrupt Jaunt can be more or less replaced by lesser celerity or wings of cover, which are what, 2nd-level spells?

[killem2]

Before my conjurer died, rapid summons was amazing. It was so nice being able to act on the same turn as the summon.

[eggynack]

Rapid Summons. Abrupt Jaunt can be more or less replaced by lesser celerity or wings of cover, which are what, 2nd-level spells?
Wings of cover is sorcerer only. Your general point has some validity though.

[Invader]

Rapid Summons. Abrupt Jaunt can be more or less and is replaced by lesser celerity or wings of cover, which are what, 2nd-level spells?

I can't get wings of cover and lesser celerity has to be prepared and dazes you for a round and I'd have Abrupt jaunt at least 4 times a day.

[prufock]

I can't get wings of cover and lesser celerity has to be prepared and dazes you for a round and I'd have Abrupt jaunt at least 4 times a day.

You can get Wings of Cover with "independent research." Hesitate, Halt, Stay the Hand, etc are also useful. There are immediate defensive spells at nearly every level. Some leave you dazed, some allow a save, some have SR. Point is, Abrupt Jaunt can be copied, to a degree, easier than Rapid Summoning (though you can do it with Quicken Spell and MM reducers).

Basically, I would just not pass up Rapid Summoning on a Summoning build.

[eggynack]

You can get Wings of Cover with "independent research." Hesitate, Halt, Stay the Hand, etc are also useful. There are immediate defensive spells at nearly every level. Some leave you dazed, some allow a save, some have SR. Point is, Abrupt Jaunt can be copied, to a degree, easier than Rapid Summoning (though you can do it with Quicken Spell and MM reducers).

Basically, I would just not pass up Rapid Summoning on a Summoning build.
There are basically no rules for independent research. You would have to basically rely on DM fiat to get anything to work. Given that wings of cover says "sorcerer" and not "wizard/sorcerer" I can only assume that wizards weren't supposed to have it. You might as well say, "Nah, wizards have all the best summoning spells. They have summon monster, and they can just research summon nature's ally." It's just not something I'd assume is true. On the other side, third eye clarity is a great way of dealing with the dazing effect of celerity. It's something that's super useful to have, even without celerity, because it deals with several conditions that are difficult to stop. Dazed and stunned can both be seriously devastating without it.

[Zombulian]

My vote goes for Rapid Summoning. Actions are important. Super important.

[CyMage]

I'd suggest RS as well. You can pick up Shadow Cloak for immediate teleportation 3 times per day. It's from DotU IIRC.

[Invader]

You can get Wings of Cover with "index.php pendent research." Hesitate t, Stay thed etc are also useful. There are immediate ofensive spells at nearly every level. Some leave you dazed, some allow a save, some have SR. Point is, Abrupt Jaunt can be copied, to a degree, easier than Rapid Summoning (though you can do it with Quicken Spell and MM reducers).

Basically, I would just not pass up Rapid Summoning on a Summoning build.

Sorry I wasn't trying to argue against it just playing devils advocate lol. I was actually leaning towards RS as I think I'd get a lot more milage out of it.

[Darrin]

Golden Desert Honey (Complete Mage) = Rapid Summoning. Expensive (300 GP per spell), but you can use wall of salt, wall of iron, or varoius other "infinite money" shenanigans to pay for it.

[Invader]

Golden Desert Honey (Complete Mage) = Rapid Summoning. Expensive (300 GP per spell), but you can use wall of salt, wall of iron, or varoius other "infinite money" shenanigans to pay for it.

If I was planning on using infinite money tricks picking an ACF wouldn't be my first issue :smallamused:

[Katana1515]

My vote would be for rapid summoning, less turns spent chanting is a really good thing! Taking full round actions to summon is often akin to painting a giant target on yourself if you are facing intelligent humanoid opponents as well. also if you want low level teleport hops cant Anklets of Translocation (MIC) make up the lack? they are a steal at 1400 gp :)

[Draz74]

I'd suggest RS as well. You can pick up Shadow Cloak for immediate teleportation 3 times per day. It's from DotU IIRC.

This.

For a general Conjurer I'd say AJ, but for a Conjurer who specifically wants to focus on summonning (going into Malconvoker and/or Master Specialist, I hope), there's no contest. Go with Rapid Summoning and just pick up your immediate action teleportation the same way all the other classes have to, i.e. Shadow Cloak.

EDIT: Even if you don't have access to DotU stuff, I'd say Rapid Summoning. But I admit it's a tough decision in this case. Just be glad you're a Wizard, you'll probably be ok no matter which way you choose. :smallamused:

[Invader]

This.

For a general Conjurer I'd say AJ, but for a conjurer who specifically wants to focus on summonning (going into Malconvoker and/or Master Specialist, I hope), there's no contest. Go with Rapid Summoning and just pick up your immediate action teleportation the same way all the other classes have to, i.e. Shadow Cloak.

EDIT: Even if you don't have access to DotU stuff, I'd say Rapid Summoning. But I admit it's a tough decision in this case. Just be glad you're a Wizard, you'll probably be ok no matter which way you choose. :smallamused:

Master specialist seems kind of underwhelming aside from the capstone.

[Spuddles]

If you are starting at level 1 with a DM that throws CR3 encounters at you, abrupt jaunt might be worth it. Summoning monsters at low levels wont do a whole lot because they won't last very long.

But at higher levels, there are plenty of items and spells that will let you waste immediate actions to save your bacon.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Master Specialist makes it a lot easier to get into the Archmage class without wasting 2 feats, and also the abilities are better than more wizard. But, I'd suggest the Rapid Summoning ACF as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Abrupt Jaunt is brokenly good, it outright ruins a lot of foes' ability to harm you and gets you out of grapple/jail easily. You could use higher level spells for such things, but why waste them and why wait for them?

Go with RS if you don't want to piss off your DM, though.

[Draz74]

Master specialist seems kind of underwhelming aside from the capstone.

Certainly it's not as good as Malconvoker, unless you are going for Archmage or simply opposed to losing even a single caster level.

But it's certainly better than just continuing in Wizard. I suggested it because it was the second-best PrC I could think of for a summoner (other than cheesy PrCs that are good at everything).

Also, the part where your summons have bonus HP equal to CL isn't exactly bad.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See if you can trade your 1st level familiar for abrupt jaunt, then spend a feat on Obtain Familiar at 3rd and trade that for rapid summoning.

[Zombulian]

Certainly it's not as good as Malconvoker, unless you are going for Archmage or simply opposed to losing even a single caster level.

But it's certainly better than just continuing in Wizard. I suggested it because it was the second-best PrC I could think of for a summoner (other than cheesy PrCs that are good at everything).

Also, the part where your summons have bonus HP equal to CL isn't exactly bad.

On the other hand, after finishing up Malconvoker you could just hop into Thaumaturgist.

[Invader]

See if you can trade your 1st level familiar for abrupt jaunt, then spend a feat on Obtain Familiar at 3rd and trade that for rapid summoning.

I was already thinking about this lol.

[Invader]

On the other hand, after finishing up Malconvoker you could just hop into Thaumaturgist.

I think that's the plan for now. Wizard into malconvoker, 1 lvl dip into paranogstic Apostle and finish out with Thaumaturgist.

[Zombulian]

I think that's the plan for now. Wizard into malconvoker, 1 lvl dip into paranogstic Apostle and finish out with Thaumaturgist.

Sounds like a good plan. Paragnostic Apostle is really nice.

[animewatcha]

So you can't just do rapid summoning while reserving move actions?

-sidenote: Casting normally with no acfs or anything. Do summons arrive 'immediately' or on your next turn?

[Tvtyrant]

I think that's the plan for now. Wizard into malconvoker, 1 lvl dip into paranogstic Apostle and finish out with Thaumaturgist.

I vote for Malconvoker. You can do some cool stuff with Greater Planar Binding :smallamused:

[StreamOfTheSky]

In MIC, there is a 500 gp 1/day Chronocharm (so...buy a bunch and switch them out between combats) to use a level 1-3 summon spell as a standard action, if it helps/matters. Also, higher levels in Master Specialist (Conjuror) give such an ability as well, iirc.

[prufock]

There are basically no rules for independent research. You would have to basically rely on DM fiat to get anything to work.

Player's Handbook, p. 179, "Independent Research" says you can do it.
Dungeon Master's Guide p. 198, "Researching Original Spells" tells you how. Time, money, spellcraft check.
Dungeon Master's Guide p. 35, "Creating New Spells" helps you design them.

Saying you can only do it with DM permission is like saying water is wet, really.


On the other side, third eye clarity is a great way of dealing with the dazing effect of celerity.

I don't think this can work. Activating the third eye is an immediate action.
"You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn"
Since celerity is an IA, you can't use another IA until after your next turn, at which point you would no longer be dazed anyway.

[eggynack]

Player's Handbook, p. 179, "Independent Research" says you can do it.
Dungeon Master's Guide p. 198, "Researching Original Spells" tells you how. Time, money, spellcraft check.
Dungeon Master's Guide p. 35, "Creating New Spells" helps you design them.

Saying you can only do it with DM permission is like saying water is wet, really.

Yeah, I know about that stuff. I'm saying that there are no rules there. It's basically just saying, "Yeah, I guess you can do this if you want," with absolutely no rules governing it. It's a rule with fiat as a component, so while other optional rules tend to be opt-in, this one requires two separate layers of DM permission. Any given DM can just say, "nah, you can't get that one," and it'd be entirely within the framework of that rule set. Thus, it's not really worth talking about spell research from an optimization standpoint, because they're far too fickle to be an assumed component of the game.

You might be right on the celerity thing. I'll have to look into that at some point.

[prufock]

Yeah, I know about that stuff. I'm saying that there are no rules there. It's basically just saying, "Yeah, I guess you can do this if you want," with absolutely no rules governing it. It's a rule with fiat as a component, so while other optional rules tend to be opt-in, this one requires two separate layers of DM permission. Any given DM can just say, "nah, you can't get that one," and it'd be entirely within the framework of that rule set. Thus, it's not really worth talking about spell research from an optimization standpoint, because they're far too fickle to be an assumed component of the game.

But there are rules. One week per spell level, 1000 gp per week, well stocked library/lab, Spellcraft check DC 10 + spell level. I know what you're getting at, but I don't see why we should ignore these rules just because the DM can say "Nah," when the DM can also say "Nah, you can't get magic missile" if he wants to. Rule 0 is also RAW.

Besides, the PHB listing has no modifying statement, nor does page 35. PHB says wizards CAN do it, see p 35 of DMG, which is a guide for how to assign the spell level. What we're talking about here isn't creating a new spell, it's duplicating an existing one.

Duplicating an existing spell from another full caster list shouldn't be hard to adjudicate - it's the same level as the spell from that list, with the same effects.

[TuggyNE]

But there are rules. One week per spell level, 1000 gp per week, well stocked library/lab, Spellcraft check DC 10 + spell level. I know what you're getting at, but I don't see why we should ignore these rules just because the DM can say "Nah," when the DM can also say "Nah, you can't get magic missile" if he wants to. Rule 0 is also RAW.

Besides, the PHB listing has no modifying statement, nor does page 35. PHB says wizards CAN do it, see p 35 of DMG, which is a guide for how to assign the spell level. What we're talking about here isn't creating a new spell, it's duplicating an existing one.

Duplicating an existing spell from another full caster list shouldn't be hard to adjudicate - it's the same level as the spell from that list, with the same effects.

Like custom magic items, epic spells, or other semi-freeform systems, spell research is contingent on DM approval, not assumed in the absence of DM rejection. The distinction is important and qualitative. And a DM that simply rubber-stamps everything is likely making mistakes; there's a reason there are often different levels for spells that are shared between lists, and surely the same reason would apply even more strongly to spells that aren't normally shared.

[prufock]

Like custom magic items, epic spells, or other semi-freeform systems, spell research is contingent on DM approval, not assumed in the absence of DM rejection.

And this doesn't stop us from discussing or suggesting custom magic items or epic spells. The phrase "Hey DM, can I research original spells as per the rules on page 198 of the DMG?" might be useful to you.

[eggynack]

And this doesn't stop us from discussing or suggesting custom magic items or epic spells. The phrase "Hey DM, can I research original spells as per the rules on page 198 of the DMG?" might be useful to you.
Actually, it kinda does. Every time someone suggests custom magic items, someone always says, "Those are only guidelines, and therefore closed to discussion." For epic spells, it comes up so rarely that I don't even know what we do when people bring it up. Generally, high op occurs between level 1 and 20, with everything afterwards labelled with a big fat broken stamp.

[prufock]

Actually, it kinda does. Every time someone suggests custom magic items, someone always says, "Those are only guidelines, and therefore closed to discussion." For epic spells, it comes up so rarely that I don't even know what we do when people bring it up. Generally, high op occurs between level 1 and 20, with everything afterwards labelled with a big fat broken stamp.

I'm not going to play the game of tracking down threads where custom magic items get suggested, but it happens often enough. One case would be enough to disprove your "every time" statement. Even the "Necessary Magic Items," one of the more popular threads on the forum, lists several. Everyone recognizes that they are guidelines subject to DM approval; people still discuss them, just like they do with class and race variants.

If your DM doesn't allow the rules, the rules won't be allowed, whether that means no independent research or no Tome of Battle. So, as I said in my last post, ask the DM.

Regardless of this derail, there are other spells that have similar utility (immediate action "oh no you don't" spells) that are on the Sor/Wiz list (I listed a few earlier).

[TuggyNE]

I'm not going to play the game of tracking down threads where custom magic items get suggested, but it happens often enough. One case would be enough to disprove your "every time" statement. Even the "Necessary Magic Items," one of the more popular threads on the forum, lists several. Everyone recognizes that they are guidelines subject to DM approval; people still discuss them, just like they do with class and race variants.

Funny thing is, the custom magic item and epic spell guidelines are a lot more involved than the spell research guidelines, taking up quite a few pages, instead of a paragraph or so. And they still run into this problem, because there's just not enough there to be sure.