Why isn't sneak attack considered a crit hit?

[classy one]

Why is sneak attack not a crit? It is described as a hit on a vital spot which sounds like a crit in flavor at least.
Fluff wise, what is the difference? Mechanically how would you integrate them?

[Invader]

Think of a critical as cutting someone's arm of at the elbow and suddenly sneak attack and critical aren't the same thing.

[JusticeZero]

If sneak attacks were crits, every cutpurse would carry around a pick or a scythe.

[Bakkan]

Fluff-wise, crits are accidental, sneak attacks are deliberate. I would not integrate them.

[Telonius]

Fluff-wise, crits are accidental, sneak attacks are deliberate. I would not integrate them.

Seconded. Even a Wizard can land a lucky blow once in a while. Sneak Attacks require "special training" (levels in Rogue, etc) to pull off, and are planned.

Plus, it would make Lightning Mace even more absurd than it is, Roundabout Kick would activate basically whenever you're flanking, so would Quell the Profane, Resounding Blow, and anything else that activates on a successful critical hit.

[NEO|Phyte]

Plus, it would make Lightning Mace even more absurd than it is

Nope. Having SA count as a crit may cause many shenanigans, but lightning maces is not one of them, as it runs on critical THREATS, not critical HITS.

[classy one]

Fluff-wise, crits are accidental, sneak attacks are deliberate. I would not integrate them.

That makes no sense. Accidentally stabbing someone in the heart has the same effect as deliberately stabbing someone in the heart.

[Eldan]

Except, apparently, you can train yourself to be better at being randomly lucky.

[Juntao112]

Fortune favors the bold.

[SSGoW]

That makes no sense. Accidentally stabbing someone in the heart has the same effect as deliberately stabbing someone in the heart.

Says you to the heart surgeon....

[Deadline]

Why is sneak attack not a crit? It is described as a hit on a vital spot which sounds like a crit in flavor at least.
Fluff wise, what is the difference? Mechanically how would you integrate them?

Generally I wouldn't integrate them beyond the method that is already available to do so: the Telling Blow feat, from PHB 2.

Others have already covered why you pretty much can't treat the two as identical and expect the system to survive intact, so I won't cover that.

[Der_DWSage]

That makes no sense. Accidentally stabbing someone in the heart has the same effect as deliberately stabbing someone in the heart.

While that specific instance is true, think of it more like this.

Sir Stabsalot the Fighter is using a Longsword, and his training has given him an increased knowledge as to where to put his blade for the best chance to slide under armor and scales while still taking full advantage of his strength. (IE, Improved Critical.) He's still trained, and good at it, but his fighting style is very different from Lurk McGurk, his Rogue companion. Even though Lurk also uses a Longsword, his style focuses on deep, plunging blows that would be useless if an opponent paid attention (IE, he has to flank.) but he also has a knowledge of anatomy unrivaled by his peers, and aims for the heart/lung/kidney every time.

Stabsalot's criticals are more about negating armor and natural defenses. Lurk's sneak attack is all about aiming at those delicious vital points.

Of course, this all breaks down when we start talking about unarmored wizards who are going to be squishy to either one, but everything breaks when we start talking about wizards.

[classy one]

Generally I wouldn't integrate them beyond the method that is already available to do so: the Telling Blow feat, from PHB 2.

Others have already covered why you pretty much can't treat the two as identical and expect the system to survive intact, so I won't cover that.

So basically fluff wise it is the same but the only reason it isn't mechanically the same is "just because". Telling blow applies sneak attack damage to a crit, but is there a way to apply a crit to a sneak attack?

[Bakkan]

That makes no sense. Accidentally stabbing someone in the heart has the same effect as deliberately stabbing someone in the heart.

Allow me to clarify. Because sneak attacks are deliberate, the rogue is able to perform particular throusts, jabs, or twists that someone untrained in that fighting style would never naturally do. A crit with a longsword at the heart is a much more powerful blow than usual that happens to bash its way through all the armor, skin, and muscles surounding the heart. Since the heart is a realtively important organ, the crit deals more damage than it would if the attack happened to hit the target in, say, the arm.

On the other hand , the Rogue deliberately ais for the heart, jabs in, deals less damage to the armor, skin, and muscles containing the heart, and then once the dagger is in he twists it a quarter turn counter-clockwise, pulls the dagger out an inch, twists it half a turn clockwise, and withdraws. He's done less damage to the surrounding tissue but more devastaating damage to the heart area.

This is just one way to fluff it, of course, but it's how I think about it.

[nyjastul69]

It should be noted that a vital area can be out of reach in regards to SA. A vital area can never be out of reach in regards to critical hits. Not sure that really means much. It seems like it should be mentioned in this discussion.

Edit: Also SA is limited by range. Critical hits are not limited by range.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Says you to the heart surgeon....

That's more like cutting at the heart rather than stabbing at it, accidentally or not.

[Emmerask]

Why is sneak attack not a crit? It is described as a hit on a vital spot which sounds like a crit in flavor at least.
Fluff wise, what is the difference? Mechanically how would you integrate them?

You are correct that it makes little sense.

Think about it as the crit being a a lucky hit on your part while at the same time the enemy had very bad luck exposing a vulnerable zone (which normally can´t be attacked no matter how careful your aim is).

Also higher crit chance can be explained this way somewhat, you just move in such a way that the enemy has a higher chance of exposure.

I know its not perfect but who said d&d is in any way realistic ^^

[SSGoW]

That's more like cutting at the heart rather than stabbing at it, accidentally or not.

In some cases to get the blade to go in they use the tip to start the incision.

Any time you here the surgeon say "oopse" during that part may not bode well. No matter if she is cutting or stabbing.

[Deadline]

So basically fluff wise it is the same but the only reason it isn't mechanically the same is "just because".

No, that's not what I said at all. I said I wouldn't comment on the fluff discussion, and gave you a mechanical way that combines them.


Telling blow applies sneak attack damage to a crit, but is there a way to apply a crit to a sneak attack?

Not that I am aware of, and as I pointed out, doing so would break those mechanics.

[classy one]

No, that's not what I said at all. I said I wouldn't comment on the fluff discussion, and gave you a mechanical way that combines them.



Not that I am aware of, and as I pointed out, doing so would break those mechanics.

why would it break the mechanics? Because a sneak attack crit doesn't have to confirm?

[Bakkan]

Even if the sneak attack crit does have to confirm, it still breaks things. The mechanics based on critical hits (the burst weapon enchantments, etc) are based on between 5% and 20% (occasionally up to 30%) of your hits being crits. If every sneak attack is a crit threat, then this increases to the chance of your rogue hitting at all while flannking. So you're increasing the propostions of hits that are crits from about 10% to 50% or more. This will casue crit-proc effects to happen much much more often than they are designed to.

[BowStreetRunner]

Both sneak attacks and crits are forms of extra damage. The former represents additional damage due mostly to skill, while the latter represents additional damage due mostly to luck. It is important to note that an attack can include both types of additional damage - although the critical hit does not modify the sneak attack damage itself further. So, essentially, even a rogue can get lucky with a precise attack and have it be more damaging than normal.

Personally, I don't see any reason to alter the existing rules on this. But that's just me, of course.

[White_Drake]

In some cases to get the blade to go in they use the tip to start the incision.

Any time you here the surgeon say "oopse" during that part may not bode well. No matter if she is cutting or stabbing.

Any time you hear your surgeon say anything you have a problem; general anesthetic should probably be used during open-heart surgery.

[Scow2]

A big problem is that you're getting crits and sneak attacks backward.

A Sneak Attack is NOT always striking a vital spot - it's striking them where they can't defend themselves, but it's not a solid blow to the vulnerable spot. You're not stabbing them in the heart/lungs. You're jabbing them in the side when they're not expecting it, or in the arm, or under the armor, or delivering an extra-painful blow you couldn't if the enemy had been paying attention, and their body can't brace against the assault. Your blow is still mitigated by tougher but less critical internal bits, such as bones. It's also mitigated (to an extent) by armor. Sneak attack hits are nastier, not more accurate.

[Kyberwulf]

Because Melee, can't have nice things.

[Sylthia]

Mechanically, you can have both. The regular damage gets the crit multiplier, the sneak attack just doesn't. So if you crit on a short sword and have an extra 3d6 from sneak attack, you'll be doing 5d6+Str mod, rather than 4d6+Str mod.

[avr]

Because the most effective backstab (AD&D/2e precursor to sneak attack which multiplied damage like 3e crits) was to use a two-handed sword with a girdle of giant strength. Presumably they wanted a mechanism which worked for 10 STR rogues using daggers.