Tainted Scholar: How broken is it really?

[Xuldarinar]

I was setting out to make a homebrew variant to fix the tainted scholar.

Well, much to my surprise when I realized, It really doesn't seem that broken to me. Powerful, but not entirely broken.

Humor me.

Bonus Spells and highest spell available based on Depravity +10.

Unless you've been focusing on wisdom, your peak isn't going to be terribly high. Beyond the norm certainly, but is this really that bad? You'll be able to fire more spells before having to go to what ever weapons you have on hand otherwise, but at higher levels this should not be a problem anyways. With every cast, this grows, but.. lets say you have a wisdom of 22. 83 is your maximum, treated as 93. Only problem, is when you cast a spell you are likely to go insane. You may be able to beat the save, but you are on the edge here. Soon as it crosses over, your character is no longer playable.

Save DCs: 10 + Spell level + 1/2 corruption score.

Unless you've been focusing on constitution, again, its not going to be that broken. Lets say you have 16 Con. Your absolute maximum on corruption is 55. One more point, you die. As a caster stat, this would equal 37. Its powerful, but you are on the edge here. You have no way to flush out corruption or depravity easily, and doing so will cut back on your power. Im certain there are some min-max builds that would allow for a significantly higher corruption, as there are builds that I'm sure will give you a higher caster stat than 37, but then there is the matter of filling it. Spending a lot of time in an area to fill it is dangerous to your group, and if you find yourself trapped you will almost certainly die of the corruption.

Exploitation?
"Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint"

But..

"They automatically have effective corruption and depravity scores equal to one-half their Charisma score, +1 for undead or +2 for outsiders."

We can read this 1 of 3 ways.
1: This is your minimum value for taint and corruption. You can build from here. (The most OP, of course)

2: This is your starting value for taint and corruption. You can gain or lose from this point.

3: This is your minimum and your maximum for taint and corruption is based on your charisma score. The lich listed in the monster manual, in this case, would have effective corruption and depravity equal to 7. Which means for saves, we are talking effectively an ability score of 14. As for bonus spells and maximum spell level, 17. In either case, this is weaker to cast from.



What about Con: - and Corruption ?

Well, all I can say is let us look at the tainted minion. It's Cha score is 12. It's corruption and depravity scores are then 7. It doesn't appear to have any bonus feats from high taint. Since you get one a moderate and severe corruption and depravity, that means it doesn't qualify for moderate. Its wisdom, being 14, supports this. This tainted minion is 1 depravity point from receiving a bonus tainted feat.

0 and - aren't the same thing, but the table mentions neither.

If we go based on trends, a corruption or wisdom score would look something like this:
{table=head] Con or wis score|No Taint|Mild Taint|Moderate Taint|Severe Taint|Dead/Insane
0|0|1-(-1)|0-(-1)|0-(-1)|0+ [/table]

Non abilities though, i think the score would be irrelevant. We are looking at:

{table=head] Con or wis score|No Taint|Mild Taint|Moderate Taint|Severe Taint|Dead/Insane
-|-|-|-|-|- [/table]

The corruption and depravity scores simply become unbound scores. But since constitution is only a non-ability for undead, deathless, and constructs, it doesn't matter as much.

Deathless may play the same as undead, or may innately lack taint. Its hard to say for certain. Maybe they cannot even acquire taint.

Constructs, if you can play one with a Con: - (Basically, anything but warforged), then you may be able to break the game. Its unclear how to play them with this, however… if we treat them as a taint absorbing object, I'm sorry but your character has a maximum of 6 corruption. One more point and they finish rotting and die. We may be able to look at deathless in the same manner, but since undead may have a fixed score this is irrelevant to them.



So, what is it I'm missing?

[Menzath]

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, you can do the ritual at anytime to gain this template making you undead, and has +0LA.
You can now have a Taint score as high as you want and not care. At least according to the information you stated.
And what you have quoted says gives you an EFFECTIVE score, not an actual one. When you have an actual score, you are immune to it's negative effects.

[Juntao112]

We can read this 1 of 3 ways.
1: This is your minimum value for taint and corruption. You can build from here. (The most OP, of course)

2: This is your starting value for taint and corruption. You can gain or lose from this point.

3: This is your minimum and your maximum for taint and corruption is based on your charisma score. The lich listed in the monster manual, in this case, would have effective corruption and depravity equal to 7. Which means for saves, we are talking effectively an ability score of 14. As for bonus spells and maximum spell level, 17. In either case, this is weaker to cast from.
i would personally favor reading #2. #1 makes undead inherently vile and unsuitable for redemption, which is at odds with the good undead variants present in several books. #3 means that a lich cannot get more depraved no matter how many puppies he kicks, which obviously makes no sense.

However, readings #1 and #2 have very troubling implications for game balance...

[Cheiromancer]

I think you are 100% right, Xuldarinar. I think Undead and evil outsiders have stable taint and depravity, and so don't benefit greatly from the class.

Other characters will find it a trap; a lot of power that leads inevitably to their doom. IIRC you cannot easily multiclass out of Tainted Scholar once you have started.

I'll have to think about Construct casters with no Con. Depravity will still do them in, I think.

[Raineh Daze]

Would Naberius avoid the downsides, out of curiosity? :smallconfused:

[Xuldarinar]

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, you can do the ritual at anytime to gain this template making you undead, and has +0LA.
You can now have a Taint score as high as you want and not care. At least according to the information you stated.
And what you have quoted says gives you an EFFECTIVE score, not an actual one. When you have an actual score, you are immune to it's negative effects.

Well, there are two things on that.

One: You need to find Necropolitans, ones who are willing to preform the ritual on your character. Good luck. Also, you want to be past second level. You lose 1 level and then some, and the ritual can just kill you if you don't have enough to give. That +0 LA is misleading.

Two: Effective is subjective here. It depends upon your reading of it. An artificer, for instance, has an effective caster level but isn't a spellcaster.


i would personally favor reading #2. #1 makes undead inherently vile and unsuitable for redemption, which is at odds with the good undead variants present in several books. #3 means that a lich cannot get more depraved no matter how many puppies he kicks, which obviously makes no sense.

However, readings #1 and #2 have very troubling implications for game balance...


True. But depravity is a measure of the amount of taint afflicting one's mind. A being could be depraved, technically, but not have a depravity score. Its a technicality though.


I think you are 100% right, Xuldarinar. I think Undead and evil outsiders have stable taint and depravity, and so don't benefit greatly from the class.

Other characters will find it a trap; a lot of power that leads inevitably to their doom. IIRC you cannot easily multiclass out of Tainted Scholar once you have started.

I'll have to think about Construct casters with no Con. Depravity will still do them in, I think.

I agree for the most part. That interpretation is the most balanced, though some implications are shaky. Taint as a resource gives great power, but of course will kill a character eventually or drive them insane.

Nothing, to my knowledge, discusses construct taint. Warforged however would behave normally, I think. Of course.. would that mean the woeforged could simply be warforged with high taint scores and not actual undead constructs? Possibly even Tainted Minions who were once warforged. Such things could make for some very interesting enemies.

[Xuldarinar]

Would Naberius avoid the downsides, out of curiosity? :smallconfused:

Im afraid you'll have to elaborate on that. Im not certain how Naberius avoid the downsides.

[tyckspoon]

At least one part of your premise is significantly flawed: Taint is actually quite easy to get rid of (dropping a taint category is harder, but if you're a Tainted Scholar you don't actually want to lose that much taint anyway.) Remove Curse will remove a point of Depravity, and Remove Disease will shed a point of Corruption. It's very simple to control your Depravity, considering Remove Curse is available as an arcane spell.. slightly harder but not much to get Remove Disease (worst comes to worst, you just throw WBL at it.) Unwanted Depravity gain is likewise not a huge risk- the save is only 10 + spell level. That's pretty simple to get into anything-but-a-1 territory, and once you're there you can buy some rerolls as insurance or get a means of not failing saves on a 1.

Sure, you don't want to ride right at your limits, because there are effects in the game that can force a couple points of taint on you.. but you aren't at much risk of going over them by your own hand. And you can make your caps pretty high, especially since as a Tainted Scholar you no longer need to have a mono-focus on boosting what would otherwise be your casting stat, and you can pretty efficiently get 2 scores kind of high for the same investment as getting 1 score *really* high. 22 isn't that big a target, not when you put magic items into it, and that allows you to have Taint scores of 70 and be a nice safe 13 points away from any risk of death/NPCdom. Which is bonus spells as if you had a casting stat of 80 and save DCs of 45 + Spell level. Does that still sound not-so-broken?

Edit: That said, if you did want to modify Tainted Scholar, I would make it harder for them to shed taint. Perhaps a Caster Level check required to make Remove Curse/Remove Disease work on them for that purpose, with a DC set by the existing amount Depravity/Corruption the subject has.

[Raineh Daze]

Im afraid you'll have to elaborate on that. Im not certain how Naberius avoid the downsides.

Its ability damage healing effect.

[Xuldarinar]

At least one part of your premise is significantly flawed: Taint is actually quite easy to get rid of (dropping a taint category is harder, but if you're a Tainted Scholar you don't actually want to lose that much taint anyway.) Remove Curse will remove a point of Depravity, and Remove Disease will shed a point of Corruption. It's very simple to control your Depravity, considering Remove Curse is available as an arcane spell.. slightly harder but not much to get Remove Disease (worst comes to worst, you just throw WBL at it.) Unwanted Depravity gain is likewise not a huge risk- the save is only 10 + spell level. That's pretty simple to get into anything-but-a-1 territory, and once you're there you can buy some rerolls as insurance or get a means of not failing saves on a 1.

Sure, you don't want to ride right at your limits, because there are effects in the game that can force a couple points of taint on you.. but you aren't at much risk of going over them by your own hand. And you can make your caps pretty high, especially since as a Tainted Scholar you no longer need to have a mono-focus on boosting what would otherwise be your casting stat, and you can pretty efficiently get 2 scores kind of high for the same investment as getting 1 score *really* high. 22 isn't that big a target, not when you put magic items into it, and that allows you to have Taint scores of 70 and be a nice safe 13 points away from any risk of death/NPCdom. Which is bonus spells as if you had a casting stat of 80 and save DCs of 45 + Spell level. Does that still sound not-so-broken?

Edit: That said, if you did want to modify Tainted Scholar, I would make it harder for them to shed taint. Perhaps a Caster Level check required to make Remove Curse/Remove Disease work on them for that purpose, with a DC set by the existing amount Depravity/Corruption the subject has.


I admit, the class is broken. No denying that. My point is, maybe it isn't -as- broke as it seems. There are a lot of counter measures built into the system, room for DM influence, and the bonuses are not as significant without risk.

You make a lot of good points, and I had forgotten the ease of taint's reduction.



Its ability damage healing effect.

I don't think so. The taint listed in Unearthed Arcana might be affected by it, but I don't think Heroes of Horror taint is.

[Cheiromancer]

I found an analysis of Tainted Scholar that agrees it is very strong (like War Weaver), but not quite broken (Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper, etc.):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12925.0;wap2

Worth a look.

[Juntao112]

It argues that taint for Evil outsiders and undead is set at a fixed value, which as I pointed out earlier, doesn't necessarily make sense and is, anyways, not explicitly stated in the rules.

[Spuddles]

i would personally favor reading #2. #1 makes undead inherently vile and unsuitable for redemption, which is at odds with the good undead variants present in several books. #3 means that a lich cannot get more depraved no matter how many puppies he kicks, which obviously makes no sense.

However, readings #1 and #2 have very troubling implications for game balance...

Heroes of Horror doesn't have good undead, and it's not really meant for the sort of game where everyone is a sparklepire or some crap. The closest you get to a good undead would be like heroic sacrifice or something because they're tired of being a vile corruption of nature.

[Xuldarinar]

I have a single argument why taint for undead creatures would be fixed. Humor me.

The tainted minion specifies in it's template that for the purposes of special abilities, its corruption and depravity scores are considered equal to half its Charisma score + 1. This is consistent with the text earlier specifying how much taint undead possess. It doesn't make sense to abruptly pull down a creature's corruption score from the time it dies from it and fix it at a certain point, but permit other undead to go as high as they want. Perhaps the reason behind a limit on taint for undead is, lacking in constitution, theres no real life force for the taint to cling to. Or even, deeper, a lack of a soul to cling to. Due to their charisma, their force of personality, the stronger that is the more taint they emanate and can utilize. On the other hand, it could be that they technically can have as much corruption and depravity they want, but charisma allows them to utilize their innate taint, hence the effective score.


Tainted reavers, however, have their minds (and possibly souls) torn asunder by the taint. it is possible, they too can have as high a taint as they desire, but as with undead they can only utilize a certain amount. Being a special case. Now, unholy scion would lack a taint entry, as they wouldn't have a taint score before conception and creatures of the evil subtype already are specified to have a specific amount of effective corruption and effective depravity. Creatures of evil, already heavily touched by taint, can only utilize so much of it. Taint elementals are special in that they are beings composed of taint, hence why their corruption and depravity scores are based upon their hit dice. The bigger the elemental, the more of their element is actually present.