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Anuiel
2013-05-28, 05:41 PM
There's something that I haven't been able to put my finger on in fantasy for the longest time that I have been missing, or, at least, haven't been able to find much of. Finally, I cam across what I can call it: mythic fantasy.

Mythic fantasy usually involves a lot more deeper and abstract themes and ideas rather than your average fantasy bear.

What are some examples of mythic fantasy? Well, that one's pretty easy. There is one setting that I consider the pinnacle of mythic fantasy and that is The Elder Scrolls. The lore to the game, especially regarding the Mer (Elves) is so beautifully and artistically done, it can't really compare to any others. Another is the highly exalted series called Prince of Nothing. I haven't been able to really read the books, but from reading enough about it, especially about the Nonmen (that world's Elves) and really getting into the background lore, I can tell you it fits perfectly as well. Two other worlds, Exalted and the Elric world of the Elric novels also fit mythic fantasy to a T.

My problem is this: I can't really find any good pen and paper rpgs that are like this (besides Exalted and the various Elric rpgs). So many fantasy worlds that are churned out today really lack the mystery and otherness of the ones mentioned above.

Though I'm mainly interested in ones that have Elves or Elf-like creatures in it, if anyone could give me any suggestions, I would be forever grateful.

Ozfer
2013-05-28, 06:33 PM
I'm almost beginning to feel that I"m overusing this one, but if you are looking for a system that gives a strong feeling of other-ness to the Elves, I just have to recommend...
Burning Wheel.

Elves are typically more powerful characters, given that they have had more years to hone their skills. They have two main mechanics that make them special:

Grief- Basically a measure of how sick of the world this Elf is. As an immortal being, it gets pretty depressing watching everything die eventually, and this translates into Grief.

Songs- Instead of sorcery, Elves are given songs that are like magic, but... Not really. Examples include the songs that turn your grief into raw attack power, songs that affect the weather, and laments for the dead that help you get over their passing.

And aside from that, all other races have their own unique mechanics that set them apart and give the world a very Mythic feel. I won't describe them at length, but Dwarves have Greed, Men have Faith, and Orcs have Hatred.

Grinner
2013-05-28, 06:34 PM
Thematic settings...I know what you mean.

As far as games/settings go, I can recommend a few:

Midnight (With an evil god ruling the world, the good people have to shine that much brighter.)
Nobilis (Nobilis is difficult to explain succinctly, but the writing alone with worth the price.)
Unknown Armies (Edit: Power always comes at a price. The question is, how much are you willing to pay?)
Shadows of Esteren (strikes a good balance between low fantasy and high fantasy)


I've also heard good things about Tenra Bansho Zero but haven't had the chance to read it yet.

Jay R
2013-05-29, 01:14 PM
I think this has more to do with the DM, or the setting, than the game rules. You can do it in D&D.

Rhynn
2013-05-29, 05:34 PM
Glorantha of RuneQuest/HeroQuest has by far the best, deepest, and more "realistic" mythology and cosmology (e.g. feels like real mythologies), written by people who are serious hobbyists of mythology and religion. Can't be beat.

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World is in part inspired by Glorantha, and has a similarly awesome mythology, although it's had 20 years and probably a couple of million players less development. Still, it feels like a fantasy version of real mythology, and is overall awesome. ("Who kills a dragon, becomes a dragon.")

Anuiel
2013-05-29, 09:43 PM
I think this has more to do with the DM, or the setting, than the game rules. You can do it in D&D.

Not really. I've spent so long trying to find anything mysterious and thematic in D&D, but I'm always left cold. D&D is way too linear and straightforward to be in the real of mythic and thematic games, especially with the alignment system that pretty much destroys abstract creativity.

Honestly. I've tried so many times but I can never truly feel anything for it like that.


Glorantha of RuneQuest/HeroQuest has by far the best, deepest, and more "realistic" mythology and cosmology (e.g. feels like real mythologies), written by people who are serious hobbyists of mythology and religion. Can't be beat.

I do find Runequest pretty interesting, though I haven't really gotten into the lore that much. I did look up the Elves (Aldryami), but I wasn't too crazy about the mobile plant thing.


Artesia: Adventures in the Known World is in part inspired by Glorantha, and has a similarly awesome mythology, although it's had 20 years and probably a couple of million players less development. Still, it feels like a fantasy version of real mythology, and is overall awesome. ("Who kills a dragon, becomes a dragon.")

I've never heard of this one so I'll have to check it out.

Rhynn
2013-05-29, 10:25 PM
I do find Runequest pretty interesting, though I haven't really gotten into the lore that much. I did look up the Elves (Aldryami), but I wasn't too crazy about the mobile plant thing.

The takes on that are really varying (ElfQuest elves with leaves in their hair to actual tree-people) and mostly an art thing - the actual written material leaves it pretty vague. Anyway, it's definitely one of the cooler things. (Also, dwarves are machines of flesh and blood. Or not flesh and blood, if you're the moron who wrote the forgettable Mongoose RQ book on dwarves.)

Really, though, elves and dwarves are probably the least interesting parts of Glorantha. The trolls are the non-humans with the most depth, but they're dwarfed by the material on the Heortlings/Orlanthi, Prax, Lunar Empire, etc.

And none of that is even touching on the actual mythology. That stuff is so extensive and deep a lot of people find it intimidating. Although IMO the depth is perfectly manageable unless you get into all the fanzines and websites etc., in which case you're making things up by patching them together from interesting things. YGMV! (Your Glorantha May Vary)


I've never heard of this one so I'll have to check it out.

It's an insanely beautiful corebook, rules based on Fuzion but modded very well, practically perfect (the magic rules have a slight hitch; basically, never ever give your players magical principles, they're too variable and powerful and unless your players are morons they're going to be effectively adding twice their magic skill to attacks and thrice it to defenses (not to mention all the other uses).

The RPG is based on Mark Smylie's comic Artesia, which is awesome but worse about coming out than A Song of Ice and Fire. It's been like 4 years since an issue came out.

Smylie, incidentally, has done art for several 3.X books, and designed, wrote, and laid out the RPG book entirely by himself because he is a madman. (He's basically Dave Sim without the drug-fueled mental break and rampant misogyny and complete disintegration of sanity. So not very much like Dave Sim at all...)

A:AKW is a toolset for doing your own thing, not a strict, broad, deeply detailed setting, but it gives a very clear style. Characters advance by performing actions that the Cosmos notices, and the book is full of hints and suggestions for things Heroes do, such as travelling the Otherworld to the Moon, ascending to Heaven or descending to the Underworld, slaying dragons (Who slays a dragon becomes a dragon!), etc. You can also play it as a gritty, low-magic game in a world teeming with myth and magic right beyond your sight (really, the whole point of the Sun Court kingdoms is that they've lost touch with magic and true divinity), or even as a megadungeon-crawling or wilderness-and-ruins-exploring game. (Not really emphasized, but thinking about Lost Uthedmael and the Dungeons of Myrad for a moment made these possibilities come to life.)

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-05-29, 11:30 PM
When I think of "mythic fantasy", and I think this jives with what you're saying, is something akin to Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. That ring anything close?

For that, I hear that Nobilis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis) could work well, or Amber Diceless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game).

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-05-30, 12:41 AM
Not really. I've spent so long trying to find anything mysterious and thematic in D&D, but I'm always left cold. D&D is way too linear and straightforward to be in the real of mythic and thematic games, especially with the alignment system that pretty much destroys abstract creativity.

Honestly. I've tried so many times but I can never truly feel anything for it like that.

You cannot believe how hard I'm laughing at this right now.

The system doesn't matter. All that matters is having a competent DM who knows when to ignore the rules, and players who are alright with that. When my players gather together, they know perfectly well they might face things that can wipe them out without even noticing them. But they also know that I will break the game in their favor for using clever/novel ideas and logic.

Pick a style and roll with it. If the system doesn't comply, change it.

Grinner
2013-05-30, 01:05 AM
You cannot believe how hard I'm laughing at this right now.

The system doesn't matter. All that matters is having a competent DM who knows when to ignore the rules, and players who are alright with that. When my players gather together, they know perfectly well they might face things that can wipe them out without even noticing them. But they also know that I will break the game in their favor for using clever/novel ideas and logic.

Pick a style and roll with it. If the system doesn't comply, change it.

Care to give examples? Because sometimes it feels like most games boil down to "Orcs smash things; elves are ambiguously gay; and humans will make babies with just about anything." Admittedly, I'm thinking mostly of those uninspired Tolkienesque homebrew settings everyone has sitting on their hard drives.

Geostationary
2013-05-30, 01:07 AM
Thirding Nobilis. The setting runs on mythic and story logic, and the writer did some work on Exalted (primarily the Sidereals and Hell, along with some other bits and bobs) amongst other things. It's pretty excellent.

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-05-30, 02:34 AM
Care to give examples? Because sometimes it feels like most games boil down to "Orcs smash things; elves are ambiguously gay; and humans will make babies with just about anything." Admittedly, I'm thinking mostly of those uninspired Tolkienesque homebrew settings everyone has sitting on their hard drives.

Then don't rip off Tolkien :smalltongue:! I had a world where Orcs were peaceful shepherds and Elves were cruel Anglo-Saxons. When I included Half-Elves in a setting, I gave them the "Magic Race" role in the lore. Even above normal Elves. In my current setting (it's in my sig! ) one of the player races is mute Tree-People, another are Scarecrows, and they both have tea with Dragons.

It's the DM's fault if the setting is boring or uninspired. Not the system.

Yora
2013-05-30, 03:32 AM
I've been working on a Pathfinder setting that moves away from the dungeon crawl hack and slash and instead focuses more on the supernatural and unexplored wilderness for some years now, and I've not really run in any substential problems because of the rules.

Obviously, alignment had to go right from the start, but in it's place I put the much better Allegiance (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/basics/allegiances.php) system.
Also, I reduced the maximum level that PCs and NPCs can attain from 20th to 10th, because d20 games just become silly beyond that point. If there are a handful of people who are 10th level and only a fraction of those are either clerics or wizards, the game-changing 5th level spells are almost never available and require consultation of one of the most powerful people in the world.
Then ditch the paladins and you've got yourself a game that really doesn't have anything that is an obstacle for a supernatural and mystery themed campaign.

From there on it's all how you run the game.

The basis for the setting is a world in which the ancient fey people just retreated back to the Spiritworld a few centuries ago, leaving the world of mortals free to be taken over by wild lizardfolk and elves, who were quick to poke around in the abandoned ruins to pick up the basics of architecture and metalworking. There are some human barbarians on the fringes, but they play a minor role in the big events of the world, usually only making a name for themselves as mercenaries or allies for the big players.
For the PCs, the task is to explore the uninhabited wilderness that has never been set foot into by mortals, and to always be on the lookout for ancient magical wonders that might benefit their people against rival clans or dangerous monsters.
Simple premise, but very different from the generic fantasy stuff.
And I think whar rules system you run it with really doesn't make a real difference at all.

Jay R
2013-05-30, 09:02 AM
Not really. I've spent so long trying to find anything mysterious and thematic in D&D, but I'm always left cold. D&D is way too linear and straightforward to be in the real of mythic and thematic games, especially with the alignment system that pretty much destroys abstract creativity.

Then ditch the alignment system. Ditch anything that's in your way. That's what I mean when I say it depends mostly on the DM and the setting.


Care to give examples? Because sometimes it feels like most games boil down to "Orcs smash things; elves are ambiguously gay; and humans will make babies with just about anything." Admittedly, I'm thinking mostly of those uninspired Tolkienesque homebrew settings everyone has sitting on their hard drives.

I'm currently in a 2E game in which elven children often disappear. We have, over many sessions, determined that they are being kidnapped into slavery by priests of Lolth. The colony across the ocean has been repeatedly attacked by undead. The world has a dark, dangerous, mysterious feeling, and we're investigating at least three conspiracies at present. My elven mage/thief grew up in an orphanage, and didn't even know he was an elf at first. He's starting to learn about elven culture now, and the elven culture is another source of mythic wonder - because we don't know what it is.

A few years ago, I ran an original Dungeons and Dragons game in which the artifacts causing trouble were the seven Staves of the Wanderers - seven staves with powers of

changeability
speed
love
light and heat
martial prowess
lightning
time

Whenever all the staves were involved, they activated in exactly that order. After many episodes, the PCs eventually picked up enough clues to recognize them as based on the seven planets. The Wanderers were the wandering stars (the moon, Mercury, Venus, the sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn).

I agree that modern D&D has a well-known culture and feel, that interferes with the mystery and mythological feel you want. It's as familiar as an old shoe. That's the problem - the mythic should not be well documented. The mythic qualities must be put in by the DM, as the mysterious and unknown parts of the world.

If you want a world of mystery, the PCs cannot know everything about it. If you want a mysterious race, they can't look it up in the manual. It's up to the DM, not the game system.

BWR
2013-05-30, 09:19 AM
Fourthing Nobilis.
The flavor text alone is worth the price of the book, and the concept is great. Never actually had a chance to play it, but the mechincs look very simple and effective if you have a good imagination and a sense of story trumping RAW.

Ars Magica coudl work, if you focus on the Faerie element. It's basically the mediaeval European concept of fae expanded upon, not nearly as out of whack as WW's Changeling stuff (which in itself might be worth a look).

And not an RPG, but you owe it to yourself to check out Robert Holdstock's "Mythago Wood". I have yet to read any story that so perfectly encompasses the idea of 'mythic fantasy'.

Rhynn
2013-05-30, 09:49 AM
I agree that modern D&D has a well-known culture and feel, that interferes with the mystery and mythological feel you want. It's as familiar as an old shoe. That's the problem - the mythic should not be well documented. The mythic qualities must be put in by the DM, as the mysterious and unknown parts of the world.

Agreed. My first step for basically all D&D in the last couple of years has been to ditch everything and accept it back on a case-by-case basis, or replace it with my own stuff. Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Athas... it can turn the familiar into something magical again.

Incidentally, anyone interested in seeing how Glorantha feels mythical and mysterious should get a copy of the computer game King of Dragon Pass, still sold at GoG.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-05-30, 10:58 AM
We should probably let the "system matters" argument drop; it tends to get in the way of further discussion.

tbok1992
2013-05-30, 11:42 AM
Not really. I've spent so long trying to find anything mysterious and thematic in D&D, but I'm always left cold. D&D is way too linear and straightforward to be in the real of mythic and thematic games, especially with the alignment system that pretty much destroys abstract creativity.

Honestly. I've tried so many times but I can never truly feel anything for it like that.

Even Planescape? Because, out of all the D&D settings, I think that Planescape captures the "Mythic" feel the best.

Also, you could try my Homebrew setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255799), which takes place in a world-sized dungeon and features such things as master-chef elves and hobo Thri-Keen who may also be the setting's "precursors" so to speak, along with a general reliance on mystery. Definitly not a Tolkein ripoff there

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-05-30, 08:03 PM
To be honest, irregardless of whether D&D can be salvaged into something more befitting the OP's needs, it sounds like there's a lot of D&D burnout going on. There's no real need to try and make it work at the moment, and moving to another game for a time can freshen up the mind and make D&D palatable.

But it's no bad thing to move outside of D&D, either. I think people are generally too reluctant to do so; it's good to experiment with an open mind and see for yourself how adapting another system and/or lore changes things.

Just my 2 gp.

Rhynn
2013-05-30, 08:41 PM
To be honest, irregardless of whether D&D can be salvaged into something more befitting the OP's needs, it sounds like there's a lot of D&D burnout going on.

Also, mechanics do matter. HeroQuest (http://moondesignpublications.com/)'s mechanics suggest a completely different game from D&D, and A:AKW's suggest a different kind of game again.

Lord Vampyre
2013-05-31, 10:43 AM
I agree that modern D&D has a well-known culture and feel, that interferes with the mystery and mythological feel you want. It's as familiar as an old shoe. That's the problem - the mythic should not be well documented. The mythic qualities must be put in by the DM, as the mysterious and unknown parts of the world.

This is true. When I was young, and first learning to play D&D (2E), everything had a mythic quality to it. As I got older, and started playing with more rules lawyers, banality started to set in. With 3rd Edition, everyone wanted to use miniatures. This seemed to only restrict everyone's creativity. The game became more strategic and far less mythical. Now, I enjoy a strategic game almost as much as a mythic one, but not if I'm looking for mythic and get strategic instead.

3rd edition has the ability to be mythic. However, IMHO you need to not use the movement rules and get rid of the gameboard. This unfortunately causes problems with how many of the abilities are designed and requires far more DM fiat. Although, I always felt DM fiat was necessary in a mythic style game for D&D.

Yora
2013-05-31, 11:14 AM
The biggest killer for D&D are all the spells, especially the divinations. And when you can teleport, resurrect, and summon powerful outsiders at the drop of a hat, the world simply is completely mastered and controlled by people. There really isn't anything left to find and explore. And magic shopps and item crafting, but those can very easily be removed by GMs.
The rest of the rules aren't really a problem.

Rhynn
2013-05-31, 07:24 PM
The biggest killer for D&D are all the spells, especially the divinations. And when you can teleport, resurrect, and summon powerful outsiders at the drop of a hat, the world simply is completely mastered and controlled by people. There really isn't anything left to find and explore. And magic shopps and item crafting, but those can very easily be removed by GMs.
The rest of the rules aren't really a problem.

It's not really surprising. How many non-D&D fantasy worlds have magic that common, powerful, and cheap/easy? Even in older D&D-based fantay (like The Deed of Paksenarrion), magic is usually at least one of rare, limited in power, or expensive.

Limiting levels and spells available is definitely a necessary first step. Like you said, 5th level spells are already world-changers, not just game-changers. I really enjoy ACKS, where advancement is slower and mages cap out at 6th-level spells and clerics at 5th (not counting powerful, expensive rituals that take weeks to cast or prepare for casting). And sure, you can use restore life and limb to bring someone back from the dead... but then you're Tampering With Mortality, and there's a vicious table for that. :smallcool:

ngilop
2013-05-31, 10:44 PM
Oh i get what he really means now.

he don;t mean mythic/mysterious at all

that talk about good mythologies and all that other stuff is really just a facade for the
'no tolkeinesque fantasy for my fantasy please'

I mena really that is what OP is actually saying only not physically typing it. he basically just wants to play a fantasy game that has as little to do with the 'standard' tolkein as possible. and several have already been established

that why he cannot find it in D&D, its just too tolkein for his tastes. the fact that you cna do precisley what he is actually asking D&D not withstanding and besdies the point becuase hidden deep down. OP just does not want any tolkein.

Rhynn
2013-06-01, 12:14 AM
that why he cannot find it in D&D, its just too tolkein for his tastes. the fact that you cna do precisley what he is actually asking D&D not withstanding and besdies the point becuase hidden deep down. OP just does not want any tolkein.

How far it has fallen. :smallfrown:

D&D was originally pretty far removed from Tolkien, except for surface touches (orcs, balrogs, hobbits). Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson, Jack Vance... that stuff isn't Tolkien.

If all you want is non-generic fantasy, then going back to the game's actual roots for inspiration is great.

... still gonna have to ditch the easy, common, cheap, and super-powerful magic.

Yora
2013-06-01, 04:19 AM
Because nobody these days has head of Anderson or Vance. If there are similarities, people wouldn't know.

The Rose Dragon
2013-06-01, 04:23 AM
How far it has fallen. :smallfrown:

D&D was originally pretty far removed from Tolkien, except for surface touches (orcs, balrogs, hobbits). Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson, Jack Vance... that stuff isn't Tolkien.

If all you want is non-generic fantasy, then going back to the game's actual roots for inspiration is great.

... still gonna have to ditch the easy, common, cheap, and super-powerful magic.

D&D is still far removed from Tolkien, and far closer to its pulp roots. Eberron and Forgotten Realms are both largely pulp settings, for example. The problem, I think, is that it's still pulp, and not fantasy. While pulp may have fantastic or supernatural elements, the themes and tropes of both genres are fairly different.

Jay R
2013-06-01, 09:09 AM
It seems like he wants to explore the hidden side of the world, and to investigate what these creatures really are. You can't do that if you own a complete Monster Manual.

The solution is for the DM to use new creatures, or to change them. Make Pini elves, Tommyknockers, Wights from Game of Thrones, Prydain Fair Folk, etc., and then don't tell the players what they are.

I also fundamentally believe that, coming out of the darkness, kobolds, orcs, goblins, humans, elves, dwarves, and even Umber Hulks all start off as merely "vaguely humanoid shapes in the darkness".

Back in original D&D, I started a project to re-write all the creatures. Some barely changed; some were vastly different. For a few, I merely switched the names. (The project died when the first Monster Manual came out, and the number of monsters grew tremendously.)

Yora
2013-06-01, 09:29 AM
That's true. Pretty much everyone who ever mentions doing a mystery game in D&D also has heavy monster homebrew as an important aspect.

Anuiel
2013-06-02, 09:28 AM
Oh i get what he really means now.

he don;t mean mythic/mysterious at all

that talk about good mythologies and all that other stuff is really just a facade for the
'no tolkeinesque fantasy for my fantasy please'

I mena really that is what OP is actually saying only not physically typing it. he basically just wants to play a fantasy game that has as little to do with the 'standard' tolkein as possible. and several have already been established

that why he cannot find it in D&D, its just too tolkein for his tastes. the fact that you cna do precisley what he is actually asking D&D not withstanding and besdies the point becuase hidden deep down. OP just does not want any tolkein.

Not quite. Mythologies are a truly important part to a fantasy world to me. They can make or break a world with how they are written and explained. Take the mythology of the TES world. It is extremely well written, made very mysterious by all of the conflicting theories and few truly known things and the more remoteness of the gods themselves.

That's quite unlike D&D where everything is explained out right down to their avatars. Truly, it's a bland and uninspired mythology for me. Everything has an alignment and is expected to act a certain way (or must act a certain way) which leaves no room for speculation.

The alignment system is a huge bane as well. I'm pretty sure I've covered why I hate the alignment system so much. One other thing, though, that I hate is when a monster 'always Chaotic Good' or 'always Lawful Evil'. That is a complete lack of talent there in the work.

But it is true that I don't like almost every other fantasy setting being a nigh carbon splatty copy of Tolkien's world. Tolkien did a wonderful world that is his. Writers shouldn't take almost every theme he had and rework it. They need to be original.

I'm really tempted to suggest someone to DM a D&D 4e game and try to make it mythic and mysterious. I would definitely try it out if someone did want to.

Yora
2013-06-02, 09:55 AM
But those are things regarding settings, not rules.

Planescape and Eberron both have alignment, but it really doesn't help much at all in predicting how a person might act. And they are both very nebulous about a great deal of things.

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 09:55 AM
Not quite. Mythologies are a truly important part to a fantasy world to me. They can make or break a world with how they are written and explained. Take the mythology of the TES world. It is extremely well written, made very mysterious by all of the conflicting theories and few truly known things and the more remoteness of the gods themselves.

This is really important. Part of the enchantment of the TES mythology is the lack of One Truth.

In most of D&D, the sourcebooks and supplements present you with objectively true information.

Giving an "in-character," biased, slanted, subjective view of the world and its mythologies is just better, IMO, because it leaves things more open to interpretation, mysterious, and interesting. You can present many versions of the truth. You can pull upsets. Much of Morrowind's in-game "background material" is presented as absolute truth, but turns out it's probably mostly made-up. (It's also awesomely mythological in tone; if only the games reached that level of coolness...) In Rokugan (at least in older editions of L5R), ninja might not exist at all. In Glorantha, every myth is "true," including the ones that directly conflict with each other; the Sun is the local sun god or spirit or other explanation; etc.

I find, though, that it's not that hard to make even D&D feel more this way. I've reworked Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Eberron for myself. I cut out all the canon and allow it back on a case-by-case basis, or replace it with an interpretation or idea I like better. The setting immediately becomes more shifting, more mysterious, and, for me, much more fun.

So, in my Eberron, the "planes" are planets; in my Athas, the Cleansing Wars were fought with hydrogen bombs and ancient ruins may contain malfunctioning rayguns and broken computers; and in my Forgotten Realms, the Lords of Waterdeep still cast prisoners and undesirables down into the "Dungeon Level" of the Undermountain (and, of course, the Time of Troubles never happened and never will, and gods certainly don't hang around in person).

BWR
2013-06-02, 11:24 AM
Actually, ninja have been around since the beginning of L5R. It's just that people, after one famous incident, don't want to admit they exist anymore. There are plenty of shinobi, butei, spies, actors, infiltrators, black-pajama-clad-assassins, even if people never officially acknowledge the existance of such.

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 11:31 AM
Actually, ninja have been around since the beginning of L5R. It's just that people, after one famous incident, don't want to admit they exist anymore. There are plenty of shinobi, butei, spies, actors, infiltrators, black-pajama-clad-assassins, even if people never officially acknowledge the existance of such.

Well, I'm referring to the fact that one of my L5R rulebooks explicitly tells the GM that ninja may be a legend and not exist at all, but also offers several types and explanations of ninja to mix and match from.

BWR
2013-06-02, 12:00 PM
Card game had ninjas from very early on, and Way of the Scorpion (1E) has a chapter on the subject.

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 12:21 PM
Card game had ninjas from very early on, and Way of the Scorpion (1E) has a chapter on the subject.

Okay. And? :smallconfused:

For clarification, L5R second edition, page 188, sidebar:
"While we have included rules for ninja here, it is important for you, the GM, to decide the real truth about ninja. Do they exist? Are their powers mystical or mundane? Are the legends of ninja families just a ruse for some other conspiratorial group?"

That is what I'm talking about: subjective information left up to the GM, but with a lot of different explanations provided.

This seriously isn't about L5R, this is about the fact that that sentence is in the rulebook and is a great example of exactly what I'm talking about, in the specific sense and in the larger sense: the book explicitly tells the GM to decide whether "established" facts are facts at all. The more vague a setting is in this specific way, the more "mythic" and "mysterious" (in the sense the OP is looking for) it feels.

So uh I don't really get what you're driving at.

ngilop
2013-06-02, 05:19 PM
Not quite. Mythologies are a truly important part to a fantasy world to me. They can make or break a world with how they are written and explained. Take the mythology of the TES world. It is extremely well written, made very mysterious by all of the conflicting theories and few truly known things and the more remoteness of the gods themselves.

That's quite unlike D&D where everything is explained out right down to their avatars. Truly, it's a bland and uninspired mythology for me. Everything has an alignment and is expected to act a certain way (or must act a certain way) which leaves no room for speculation.

The alignment system is a huge bane as well. I'm pretty sure I've covered why I hate the alignment system so much. One other thing, though, that I hate is when a monster 'always Chaotic Good' or 'always Lawful Evil'. That is a complete lack of talent there in the work.

But it is true that I don't like almost every other fantasy setting being a nigh carbon splatty copy of Tolkien's world. Tolkien did a wonderful world that is his. Writers shouldn't take almost every theme he had and rework it. They need to be original.

I'm really tempted to suggest someone to DM a D&D 4e game and try to make it mythic and mysterious. I would definitely try it out if someone did want to.

Ok.. i am completely confused though on what you want.. becuase everything you have said about Tamriel is purely and fully setting, and has zero to do with rules.

One could actually do the same thing with D&D or GURPS or every ruleset in the game. its not impossible or even difficult.

If you are undable to differeiate between setting ^ feel of a game and the games rules then I hate to say this. but you are never going to be able to find a game.

hell to me even all the Elder Scroll games have no mystery to them at all. If you played all the games you know what is going on and the history, well if you have doen all the gridning of the side quests and such.

BWR
2013-06-02, 05:24 PM
So uh I don't really get what you're driving at.

I got the impression from your first post that the books didn't say whether ninja existed, which they do.

Anuiel
2013-06-02, 06:28 PM
Ok.. i am completely confused though on what you want.. becuase everything you have said about Tamriel is purely and fully setting, and has zero to do with rules.

One could actually do the same thing with D&D or GURPS or every ruleset in the game. its not impossible or even difficult.

If you are undable to differeiate between setting ^ feel of a game and the games rules then I hate to say this. but you are never going to be able to find a game.

hell to me even all the Elder Scroll games have no mystery to them at all. If you played all the games you know what is going on and the history, well if you have doen all the gridning of the side quests and such.

Did you not read the part about the alignment system and the straight write up of deities? I know I can just ignore all of that, but honestly, it doesn't fix anything. It's like ignoring your house when it's on fire. Especially so when everything's treated as the rules state. And yes, I know I can go around that, but then again, it's like ignoring your house when it's on fire. It shouldn't be the players who have to fix the setting to their tastes all the time which is why I'm tired of having to deal with it and just want some games that cater to my niche.

I've played just about every single TES game there is too and with every new one, I get even more mystified (perhaps not as mystified as I was in Morrowind, but every game has its own things to be mystified over). How can you not be mystified by the ruins that dot Tamriel's landscape? Don't you ever find yourself wondering what went on there? Or what about beyond the current game's borders? Don't you ever find yourself wistful of what the other provinces are like and how their cultures are? The Mer have the most beautifully detailed, yet not very revealed, culture about them. I suggest reading the ingame books and going over to imperial-library.info (the Imperial Library) and reading the stuff there as well, especially the lore that is written by Michael Kirkbribe, aka god.

Another game that got my attention before was Fable and Fable: The Lost Chapters. If any game besides TES got my mystified about the land's past and culture, it was Fable. Numerous times have I felt myself deeply ingrained into that game world's lore. I have even felt myself become emotional around the Old Kingdom ruins and the lost glory that they held before.

ngilop
2013-06-02, 06:37 PM
Did you not read the part about the alignment system and the straight write up of deities? I know I can just ignore all of that, but honestly, it doesn't fix anything. It's like ignoring your house when it's on fire. Especially so when everything's treated as the rules state. And yes, I know I can go around that, but then again, it's like ignoring your house when it's on fire. It shouldn't be the players who have to fix the setting to their tastes all the time which is why I'm tired of having to deal with it and just want some games that cater to my niche.

I've played just about every single TES game there is too and with every new one, I get even more mystified (perhaps not as mystified as I was in Morrowind, but every game has its own things to be mystified over). How can you not be mystified by the ruins that dot Tamriel's landscape? Don't you ever find yourself wondering what went on there? Or what about beyond the current game's borders? Don't you ever find yourself wistful of what the other provinces are like and how their cultures are? The Mer have the most beautifully detailed, yet not very revealed, culture about them. I suggest reading the ingame books and going over to imperial-library.info (the Imperial Library) and reading the stuff there as well, especially the lore that is written by Michael Kirkbribe, aka god.

Another game that got my attention before was Fable and Fable: The Lost Chapters. If any game besides TES got my mystified about the land's past and culture, it was Fable. Numerous times have I felt myself deeply ingrained into that game world's lore. I have even felt myself become emotional around the Old Kingdom ruins and the lost glory that they held before.

I was no more mystified of teh landscape in Mirrowind than I was the first time playing D&D that the MD desrbed what the ruined hall of a Dawrven keep looked like, actually less so. but only becuase your mind putting images into your head tends to be more grandiose than having thos eimgaes set infront of you.

pretty much everything you just said is something that myself and justa bout anydoy ever that have played RPGS in general ive talked to, not just D&D, feel oh hey ruins.. whats up with those lets go explore and investigate.

ive read all the Elderscroll stuff, but to me all it ever was was a guy or a group of guys designing theri own D&D game world. but thats pretty much how i see every fantasy based computer RPG.

if fable or elder scrolls had the decades of support and the millions of expansion ( or supplemtla books as youd call them in D&D0 i bet youw ould not be so mystified. as just like in D&D everything would be pretty explained from the get go.


again i want to stress that what you are complainging about is not rules but the feel and setting of a game. any RPG in existance cna give you the setting and feel you want.

mysticla ruins that are mysterious and awe inspiring landscapes. its just the DM/GM/Storytelloer/Narrator or whatever needs to be good at those things.

I bet if you played a game of D&D with some fo the guys that ive played under and nobody tolkd you ' hey its D&D' you wouldn't know it was untill it came time to actually use character sheets in combat time.

Anuiel
2013-06-02, 07:27 PM
I was no more mystified of teh landscape in Mirrowind than I was the first time playing D&D that the MD desrbed what the ruined hall of a Dawrven keep looked like, actually less so. but only becuase your mind putting images into your head tends to be more grandiose than having thos eimgaes set infront of you.

pretty much everything you just said is something that myself and justa bout anydoy ever that have played RPGS in general ive talked to, not just D&D, feel oh hey ruins.. whats up with those lets go explore and investigate.

ive read all the Elderscroll stuff, but to me all it ever was was a guy or a group of guys designing theri own D&D game world. but thats pretty much how i see every fantasy based computer RPG.

if fable or elder scrolls had the decades of support and the millions of expansion ( or supplemtla books as youd call them in D&D0 i bet youw ould not be so mystified. as just like in D&D everything would be pretty explained from the get go.


again i want to stress that what you are complainging about is not rules but the feel and setting of a game. any RPG in existance cna give you the setting and feel you want.

mysticla ruins that are mysterious and awe inspiring landscapes. its just the DM/GM/Storytelloer/Narrator or whatever needs to be good at those things.

I bet if you played a game of D&D with some fo the guys that ive played under and nobody tolkd you ' hey its D&D' you wouldn't know it was untill it came time to actually use character sheets in combat time.

We're not on the same page and clearly disagree on these things. You're just not understanding what I'm talking about and don't have the same feelings towards RPGs like I do.

ngilop
2013-06-02, 08:24 PM
True that. we will just have to agree to disagree then.

but we can agree that I have no idea what so ever what you are getting at.


I took away form everything you type that you want a certain feeling when you played a particular RPG. but what you are writting and my interpration of that very writing is completely off center to a large degree.

I am sorry for not getting what you want me to.

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 10:19 PM
hell to me even all the Elder Scroll games have no mystery to them at all. If you played all the games you know what is going on and the history, well if you have doen all the gridning of the side quests and such.

Really? The games never even touch on the fact that alternate-timeline Ayelids are behind the Thalmor and their plan to destroy the "Towers" of the world (including Red Mountain, White-Gold Tower, etc.) to unmake it... and they leave many things open, like the whole Atmora question...

And Akavir. Holy heck, what is up with Akavir? And the Sloads! :smalleek:

Salbazier
2013-06-02, 11:03 PM
I find, though, that it's not that hard to make even D&D feel more this way. I've reworked Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Eberron for myself. I cut out all the canon and allow it back on a case-by-case basis, or replace it with an interpretation or idea I like better. The setting immediately becomes more shifting, more mysterious, and, for me, much more fun.

So, in my Eberron, the "planes" are planets; in my Athas, the Cleansing Wars were fought with hydrogen bombs and ancient ruins may contain malfunctioning rayguns and broken computers; and in my Forgotten Realms, the Lords of Waterdeep still cast prisoners and undesirables down into the "Dungeon Level" of the Undermountain (and, of course, the Time of Troubles never happened and never will, and gods certainly don't hang around in person).

I find Eberron invoke the mystery and ambiguity feeling quite well by itself. Then again, making things even more mysterious and unclear is very much in the spirit of the setting.

Rhynn
2013-06-02, 11:17 PM
I find Eberron invoke the mystery and ambiguity feeling quite well by itself. Then again, making things even more mysterious and unclear is very much in the spirit of the setting.

My issue was pretty much that it invoked too many D&D standards, so I made it more explicitly 19th century (in the style of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura, which it already resembled*), added a bit of traditional fantasy-SF (the planes as planets), emphasized that Khyber is both an Underdark and a Hell/Underworld, playing up Xoriat's influence, and so on. Doing this in Pathfinder helped a good deal.

Eberron was better than average, though, especially using only the corebook(s). After all, part of the problem is that the more supplements you publish, the less is left unanswered and vague. I very much appreciate, for instance, that the Mark of Death was intentionally left a canon mystery, although I expect it eventually got an official explanation.

I just wish they'd have used more of Kev Walker's awesome Mignola-like art... it really stood out in a good way, and Eberron definitely looks like Mignola's stuff to me because of it.

* Trivia: gnomes are probably bankers and financiers in both settings because a little-used meaning of the word is "international banker" or "financial expert" ...

erikun
2013-06-03, 03:16 AM
If I may throw my several cents into the arena...

If you want to stick with D&D anyways, then I would recommend looking into either Planescape or Eberron. Planescape has a ton of lore (generally very good) and a lot of vague uncertainties - the biggest problem is that you'd probably need to play AD&D 2nd ed, or one of the AD&D retroclones and translate creature stats. Eberron tends to feature a lot of grey morality in its characters and societies, and less clear understanding on what the differnt deities/powers are.

Ravenloft might be worth checking out too, in D&D, although with a more gothic horror player-antagonistic.

Outside D&D, the first system that comes to mind is World of Darkness. A lot of the settings in WoD tend towards vague uncertainties and lack of understanding, and this extends to some related products like Trinity. The systems tend towards urban fantasy, although Changeling: The Lost might be worth looking into for the fey/elvish flavor you seem to prefer.

If you don't mind the setting, Eclipse Phase is worth looking into. It is a very interesting setting with lots of secrets, and it is unlikely that you or your players have been introducted to it yet.


And as an aside, I'd like to thank people for pointing out the good qualities of Glorantha. I have the HeroQuest system and like it a lot, but have been hesitant of picking up a Glorantha rulebook because I wasn't sure what the setting is like. It sounds like it is something I definitely should be looking into. :smallsmile:

Yora
2013-06-03, 03:28 AM
Planescape has a ton of lore (generally very good) and a lot of vague uncertainties - the biggest problem is that you'd probably need to play AD&D 2nd ed, or one of the AD&D retroclones and translate creature stats.

You don't. One of the big charms of AD&D is that the setting books come with almost no hard rules content but are all descriptions of the world and people. The only exception are creatures and almost all have shown up in the 3rd Ed. Monster Manuals in some way. Manual of the the Planes, MM1, MM3, Fiendish Codex 1, and Fiendish Codex 2 should cover everything if you have the AD&D Boxed Set. (Just MM1 will also do it in a pinch.)

DigoDragon
2013-06-03, 07:35 AM
So, in my Eberron, the "planes" are planets; in my Athas, the Cleansing Wars were fought with hydrogen bombs and ancient ruins may contain malfunctioning rayguns and broken computers;

This sounds like my homebrewed Dracadia campaign. :smallbiggrin:

The mystery is that recorded history only goes back about 2000 years and there are holes in the knowledge of the older writings we do have. Anything before then is a mystery, though there are allusions to some kind of cataclysmic event that wiped out a very industrial society before the 2k year mark.
Details of that event conflict with different writings, gods do not talk about it and have struck down followers who ask too many questions on the matter, and no faction has found a rhyme or reason on why dungeons exist scattered all over the known world.

erikun
2013-06-04, 01:13 AM
You don't. One of the big charms of AD&D is that the setting books come with almost no hard rules content but are all descriptions of the world and people. The only exception are creatures and almost all have shown up in the 3rd Ed. Monster Manuals in some way. Manual of the the Planes, MM1, MM3, Fiendish Codex 1, and Fiendish Codex 2 should cover everything if you have the AD&D Boxed Set. (Just MM1 will also do it in a pinch.)
Yeah, sorry. I don't mean that the setting couldn't be ported over; you could certainly do so into nearly any system. Rather, the mechanics and stats were all in AD&D and would need to be ported over into other systems, not to mention dealing with D&D3e spells which just weren't in earlier editions.

Also, I get the impression that Anuiel wanted a full system/setting together. If it was simply a matter creating a mysterious setting, then he could simply make his own creatures/setting history and run it in any system.

Asmodai
2013-06-04, 07:20 AM
You don't. One of the big charms of AD&D is that the setting books come with almost no hard rules content but are all descriptions of the world and people. The only exception are creatures and almost all have shown up in the 3rd Ed. Monster Manuals in some way. Manual of the the Planes, MM1, MM3, Fiendish Codex 1, and Fiendish Codex 2 should cover everything if you have the AD&D Boxed Set. (Just MM1 will also do it in a pinch.)

I'm actually running Planescape on Adventure! and have no problems whatsoever. So, yeah, go AD&D, you're not as marred by rules as you'd expect! (the same applies for Dark Sun, Spelljammer and Ravenloft, btw)