Just the first?

[SavageWombat]

What if this is only the first epic-level illusion trap?

If they got caught by a "greatest fear" or "greatest shame" trap, Haley's dark secret might finally be revealed...

[BaronOfHell]

Others have previously called this "Girard's last ditch attempt", comparing it to Dorukan's and Soon's similar, i.e. the warding and the ghost martyrs.

On at least two points I think it stands to reason to assume this is the case. One is that the trap itself seems pretty epic, and it's only limited how many of these there can be, I imagine.
Secondly I don't think we'll get a story which repeats more or less identical scenes. So more obstruction will properly be dealt with in different ways.

Also it's been mentioned in comic that the Pyramid probably had a lot of more illusions going on before the Draketooh demise.

I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the last thing Girard has in store for us, but seeing as the book is running long, it could very well be.

[Rakoa]

I think that Girard will have another trick up his sleeve, but it will not be similar to what we've just seen.

[MReav]

I like the idea of the multi-layer trap. They've gone from the Paradise Matrix where they got everything they wanted into the standard Matrix where everything appears normal.

[Snails]

I think that Girard will have another trick up his sleeve, but it will not be similar to what we've just seen.

There are a number of obvious (to us) tricks around making the Gate hard to find or control, that do not require epic magic -- the usual mere high-level magic would be more than adequate for the purpose.

I expect that there are at least one or more tricks yet to come from Girard.

I would note that a "at least a few hours" is a wonderful trick on the Giant's part. It is just long enough that almost anything could have happened "off panel", but a short enough time it is not reasonable to expect any one particular thing to have already occurred.

[NerdyKris]

Others have previously called this "Girard's last ditch attempt", comparing it to Dorukan's and Soon's similar, i.e. the warding and the ghost martyrs.

On at least two points I think it stands to reason to assume this is the case. One is that the trap itself seems pretty epic, and it's only limited how many of these there can be, I imagine.
Secondly I don't think we'll get a story which repeats more or less identical scenes. So more obstruction will properly be dealt with in different ways.

Also it's been mentioned in comic that the Pyramid probably had a lot of more illusions going on before the Draketooh demise.

I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the last thing Girard has in store for us, but seeing as the book is running long, it could very well be.

I agree that there won't be more illusions. This one was already pretty much unbeatable had there been guardians alive to make proper use of it. It wasn't intended to hold people indefinitely, just to keep them occupied long enough for someone to stab them.

Adding more would just be a bit ridiculous. It's one thing to have Elan realize he needs to grow up within an illusion. (and it was done fantastically) It's another thing altogether to go "1,2,3" and just hit every major epiphany within an illusion in the same series of rooms. That's not telling a story. That's writing little short stories loosely tied by a similar location. That's the point where it just becomes cheap.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Different interpretation: It's the first and last epic defense at this gate, but it's not over. I think we'll see more of the same trap. Perhaps the illusion is multi-layered and the Order is still trapped, or the runes have other effects (elsewhere?) that we haven't been shown. Who knows? There are lots of ways that could play out.

Having the crazy-ass epic level Final Boss Illusion be utterly defeated a few strips after it's been introduced seems unlikely.

[NerdyKris]

Possibly. But the illusion wasn't supposed to fire all on it's lonesome. It's not the final boss illusion, it's basically a very intircate stun spell that allows you to stab the victim while they're distracted. The reason Elan even had time to figure out the inconsistencies is because the guardians were all dead and unable to take advantage of it.

I'm sure there's more, but I don't think they're going to be illusions revealing each character's major epiphany in turn.

[Barsoom]

So far, the defenses of the pyramid that we've seen:
- Explosive trap on the stairs
- Pit trap in the hallway
- Blade trap in the hallway
- The trap that summoned the hellhound, plus whatever other traps were on that door (Meteor Swarm!)
- The arrow trap that killed the hellhound
- The epic illusion trap
- Oh, and the entire pyramid was, like, invisible. And hidden behind an illusionary wall. In a remote and difficult to reach canyon.

That, in addition to the large number of guardians, which were supposed to be alive. I'd say we've seen enough defenses, and they culminated very nicely into the epic trap. Next, we'll move to the resolution of the Girard arc, with the inevitable collision between OotS, Team Evil and LG. And other surprises, no doubt. But the pyramid's defenses, I believe, have been exhausted.

[Math_Mage]

Given that the trap was almost certainly an epic arcane version of Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm), the likelihood that this is another layer is slim. It's not impossible, but it's an unnecessarily complicated explanation of what's going on. The dialogue in 890 is entirely consistent with the simpler explanation, right down to Roy's hunger.

However, I don't expect this to be the last defense. Like Dorukan, Girard probably put defenses on the Gate itself. How that plays into whatever ironic familial betrayal dooms Girard's Gate remains to be seen.

[EmperorSarda]

So far, the defenses of the pyramid that we've seen:
- Explosive trap on the stairs
And arrows and electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html)

[quasit]

So far, the defenses of the pyramid that we've seen:
- Explosive trap on the stairs
- Pit trap in the hallway
- Blade trap in the hallway
- The trap that summoned the hellhound, plus whatever other traps were on that door (Meteor Swarm!)
- The arrow trap that killed the hellhound
- The epic illusion trap
- Oh, and the entire pyramid was, like, invisible. And hidden behind an illusionary wall. In a remote and difficult to reach canyon.

That, in addition to the large number of guardians, which were supposed to be alive. I'd say we've seen enough defenses, and they culminated very nicely into the epic trap. Next, we'll move to the resolution of the Girard arc, with the inevitable collision between OotS, Team Evil and LG. And other surprises, no doubt. But the pyramid's defenses, I believe, have been exhausted.

And at least a sliding airtight lock wall and a lot of maze-like corridors unexplored.
To this point, one might believe their defenses are exhausted, but girard's family spent a few generation conning western continent families for human and monetary resources. Thats a whole lot of cash, and provided that they only spend their money on supplies like food (or maybe don't, high level casters like clerics can create food and water out of thin air), improving gate's defences and that most illusions are free; one might expect a metric ton of traps more awaiting for them: this one being the first really nasty one.
Can't say for sure if next door is the gate, rift, girard's buttcheeks or yet another surprise; I think.

[invinible]

Don't forget that the only reason they are having Haley deactivate the traps is so the Order can see if the gate is even anywhere close to the pyramid or if the whole pyramid set-up was just another misdirection.

[asphias]

another illusion trap like this one seems like a bad plan both story-wise and in character thinking.

in character: the fact that they just encountered an illusion of this kind will mean that they will probably be careful to check for other signs of illusions for a while. it's played as a joke by Elan, but i think that the "this might be another illusion" kind of alertness will stay with the team for the rest of the dungeon. thus a second illusion like this is way less likely to work for long, and thus i doubt girard would have two of these illusions.

storywise: doing the illusion again would in no way forward the plot, and to have another member of the order (or elan again) have character development trough a second illusion would be way to repetitive.

on the other hand: i really doubt that this is the very last trap we'll see. if you spend your whole life making a huge complicated maze around the gate, it'd be strange not to put a few traps on the gate itself too. preferably even more epic then the rest of your dungeon, but you certainly won't leave it completely trapless!

[Bulldog Psion]

The story can't be strung out too far by multiple layers of illusion. It's already running long and an extra diversion would be too much. If there's anything more, it'll probably be a montage of illusion traps being overcome in one or two frames.

[skim172]

"I'm sorry, your universe-undoing, god-killing horror from before time is in another pyramid." :smalltongue:

[Eloi]

I believe that there will be some sort of more finale-ish thing, perhaps a monster or a revelationary recorded message from Girard.

Tangential: Is anyone else enjoying the paranoia theme? Ian and Girard are both chaotic good people with enough paranoia to spare. And all of this paranoia was their own doom.

My guess is that Girard will have some sort of self-destruct mechanism on his Gate if it doesn't detect that its him or any of his family. Think about it. Why would he want anyone else to mess with it if he doesn't trust his friends?

[Mammal]

My guess is that Girard will have some sort of self-destruct mechanism on his Gate if it doesn't detect that its him or any of his family. Think about it. Why would he want anyone else to mess with it if he doesn't trust his friends?

Oooh, I really like that idea. It's clever, and fits in with the theme of all the gates being destroyed by whatever was set in place to protect them. Plus it really raises the stakes for the rest of the comic.

[Cranica]

What I want to know is how any of the Order were capable of making the save against Girard's illusion. Even assuming it's a simple Will disbelief, saves against an Epic illusion would be a minimum DC of 29 (probably much higher, this assumes a bare minimum stat to be able to learn an Epic spell). Elan's got no higher than +10, so unless our Epic illusionist only gets one ninth-level spell per day, he shouldn't even be capable of making a save against it. Even the power of his country music shouldn't have worked - the Break Enchantment attached to his bardic music makes a caster level check at a maximum bonus of +15 against 11+Girard's caster level (a minimum of 32).

So, speculating - maybe Roy's wrong about the runes being directly from Girard, or they are in a second layer. Or this is a case where the Giant's ignoring RAW for the sake of the story, but hey.

[BaronOfHell]

Maybe, but I believe these kind of rules have been ignored before. I don't think we should expect for sure they'll be followed, if a good story dictates otherwise.

Edit: Wasn't there also a statement at some point in time, which made it clear that you don't need understanding of D&D to be able to enjoy and understand this comic? In that light, I doubt that an intimate knowledge of the rules behind D&D will be much help in predicting how the order will fare.

[Kish]

What I want to know is how any of the Order were capable of making the save against Girard's illusion.
I really wish people would quit trying to reduce all the drama and depth of strip #889 to Elan making a saving throw.

[137beth]

What I want to know is how any of the Order were capable of making the save against Girard's illusion. Even assuming it's a simple Will disbelief, saves against an Epic illusion would be a minimum DC of 29 (probably much higher, this assumes a bare minimum stat to be able to learn an Epic spell). Elan's got no higher than +10, so unless our Epic illusionist only gets one ninth-level spell per day, he shouldn't even be capable of making a save against it. Even the power of his country music shouldn't have worked - the Break Enchantment attached to his bardic music makes a caster level check at a maximum bonus of +15 against 11+Girard's caster level (a minimum of 32).

So, speculating - maybe Roy's wrong about the runes being directly from Girard, or they are in a second layer. Or this is a case where the Giant's ignoring RAW for the sake of the story, but hey.
Feel free to believe either of the following:
1. Elan rolled a natural 20
2. What people roll doesn't matter, it is a story, not a game.

EDIT: You know, there's a quote from the Giant that really nails this one:

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

[Bubbles]

I'm going to vote with the gate being part of its own last line of defense..whether it's self-destruct or a room filled with gates, some real but fake, some just illusions and each one trapped like that door that summoned the summoned the hellhound. Only one of them is real....and is perhaps shrouded in illusion to help it hide in plain sight of all the other fake gates.. with size determining the number.

[Tragak]

So far, the defenses of the pyramid that we've seen:
- Explosive trap on the stairs
- Pit trap in the hallway
- Blade trap in the hallway
- The trap that summoned the hellhound, plus whatever other traps were on that door (Meteor Swarm!)
- The arrow trap that killed the hellhound
- The epic illusion trap
- Oh, and the entire pyramid was, like, invisible. And hidden behind an illusionary wall. In a remote and difficult to reach canyon.

That, in addition to the large number of guardians, which were supposed to be alive. I'd say we've seen enough defenses, and they culminated very nicely into the epic trap. Next, we'll move to the resolution of the Girard arc, with the inevitable collision between OotS, Team Evil and LG. And other surprises, no doubt. But the pyramid's defenses, I believe, have been exhausted. This. Definitely :smallsmile:

[Samalpetey]

I'm not sure where, but The Giant stated that he didn't think of Girard as the sort of person who would take he epic spellcasting feat, leaving the studying to Doruken. The illusion was a ninth level spell.

EDIT: Found it

It's not Epic, it's simply a 9th-level illusion—since there aren't many 9th-level illusions in core, there's conceptual room for one that is pretty heavy-hitting that would still be way above anything Eugene ever tried. My closest rules-based analogy was Microcosm, which is a 9th level psionic power. This spell doesn't seem to have a hit point limit, but it does offer a possible means of escape through internal realization. Because, you know, story.

I don't see Girard as having taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, simply because that was more Dorukan's shtick. And as a multi-class ranger/sorcerer, he would have gotten access to it later and he's not really the type to spend all his time studying (when he could be out "recruiting" his defensive team). But I don't think it's necessary for it to be explicitly Epic to be "really powerful." We're getting to the point where the difference between the high-level OOTS and the low-epic Order of the Scribble is mostly one of degrees anyway.

[Turtlesbanes]

I think we'll run into one more illusion or trap in the gate room right as the OotS the LG and Team Evil are converging.
I'm personally hoping the gate will be invisible and the only one who will be able to see it will be the monster in the dark, who was never able to see the gates before.
Or that the Draketooths are still alive and their deaths were an illusion all along.

[WindStruck]

The final trick will not be an illusion. It will be some completely random stranger they captured and kept alive for the sole purpose of doing one thing: as soon as anyone comes to free him he is to say, "I'm sorry but your gate is in another ziggurat!" If he doesn't do this, his head will explode due to a magic curse placed on him.

Of course, it will be the absolute truth, as the real gate is hidden in an extremely small, nearby one buried under 400 feet of sand, which would be close enough for the prophecy about which gate Xykon will visit next to be true.

[Math_Mage]

What I want to know is how any of the Order were capable of making the save against Girard's illusion. Even assuming it's a simple Will disbelief, saves against an Epic illusion would be a minimum DC of 29 (probably much higher, this assumes a bare minimum stat to be able to learn an Epic spell). Elan's got no higher than +10, so unless our Epic illusionist only gets one ninth-level spell per day, he shouldn't even be capable of making a save against it. Even the power of his country music shouldn't have worked - the Break Enchantment attached to his bardic music makes a caster level check at a maximum bonus of +15 against 11+Girard's caster level (a minimum of 32).

So, speculating - maybe Roy's wrong about the runes being directly from Girard, or they are in a second layer. Or this is a case where the Giant's ignoring RAW for the sake of the story, but hey.
In addition to what others have said, the closest RAW analogue to the spell in the comic, and the spell the Giant cites as his inspiration, is Microcosm. Microcosm does not have a saving throw. Therefore, Elan breaking out had absolutely nothing to do with making a saving throw.


I think we'll run into one more illusion or trap in the gate room right as the OotS the LG and Team Evil are converging.
I'm personally hoping the gate will be invisible and the only one who will be able to see it will be the monster in the dark, who was never able to see the gates before.
Or that the Draketooths are still alive and their deaths were an illusion all along.
It would be extremely implausible for the Draketooths to be alive. They would not set this up as their usual defense against outsiders, and they could not have known about Familicide.

Similarly, there's no particular reason why MitD would see Girard's gate just because it's covered by an illusion. He might be able to see through the illusion, though.

[Turtlesbanes]

It would be extremely implausible for the Draketooths to be alive. They would not set this up as their usual defense against outsiders, and they could not have known about Familicide.

Similarly, there's no particular reason why MitD would see Girard's gate just because it's covered by an illusion. He might be able to see through the illusion, though.

First, I understand that my hypothesis is remarkably unlikely, I didn't say that this is what I thought would happen, I said it was what I hoped would happen.

Second, I think it's well within the character of the Draketooths to keep tabs on the other gates and in doing so take notice of the Order of the Stick. With their degree of wealth and paranoia they could easily have been watching each member of the order and seen V cast Familicide. Again, I understand this is unlikely to the degree of being ignored as a possibility.

As for MitD seeing the gate, I got nothing. I just like the irony of it being unable to see the gates everyone else could see and then being the only one able to see the gate nobody can see. I have no reason why it would happen and don't expect it to.

[Math_Mage]

First, I understand that my hypothesis is remarkably unlikely, I didn't say that this is what I thought would happen, I said it was what I hoped would happen.

Second, I think it's well within the character of the Draketooths to keep tabs on the other gates and in doing so take notice of the Order of the Stick. With their degree of wealth and paranoia they could easily have been watching each member of the order and seen V cast Familicide. Again, I understand this is unlikely to the degree of being ignored as a possibility.

As for MitD seeing the gate, I got nothing. I just like the irony of it being unable to see the gates everyone else could see and then being the only one able to see the gate nobody can see. I have no reason why it would happen and don't expect it to.
Hn. I appreciate that you've thought out possibilities. There remains the narrative problem. I hope the Draketooths are not casting an illusion because it would cheapen V's character development by eliminating the visible consequences of her actions. I hope the MitD does not see the Gate because it would cheapen his mystery by introducing arbitrary reversals of his characteristics. I say 'implausible' rather than 'unlikely' because your proposed ideas are not just unlikely in universe, but also problematic for the story.

[Bogardan_Mage]

In addition to what others have said, the closest RAW analogue to the spell in the comic, and the spell the Giant cites as his inspiration, is Microcosm. Microcosm does not have a saving throw. Therefore, Elan breaking out had absolutely nothing to do with making a saving throw.
Therefore nothing. Microcosm does not allow its victims to escape period. That means we can't infer anything about how Elan escaped from Microcosm since it's clearly divergent.

[karkus]

Haley's dark secret might finally be revealed...

Oh no! Now everyone will know that Haley's in love in Elan!

On a related note, I just barely figured out how to change font colors. Blue is for sarcasm, right? I can only seem to remember that cyan is for cynicism...

[Math_Mage]

Therefore nothing. Microcosm does not allow its victims to escape period. That means we can't infer anything about how Elan escaped from Microcosm since it's clearly divergent.

In which case the Giant can't be accused of folly for letting Elan escape even though his saving throw can't pass muster. My statement is true to the extent that it matters.