Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial

[Emperor Tippy]

So I have a challenge for anyone interested in doing it. Build an ECL 20 (or lower) character that has at least 17 levels of Monk (PrC's that advance Monk levels are allowed) and can solo every challenge in the Elder Evils book.

Now restrictions:
1) You can't exceed Wealth by Level (760,000 GP) by any means.
2) You get 210,000 XP (20,000 more than 20th level).
3) The spells Ice Assassin and Simulacrum aren't allowed by any means, nor is the power Astral Seed.
4) All official 3.5 sources are allowed but anything not in the SRD must be followed by a source abbreviation and page number.
5) The same build must go through all challenges (from lowest to highest CR) and can only be respeced between challenges if such an ability is included in your build (having Psychic Reformation or being able to chain gate to swap items, for example).
6) Stats are 32 point buy.
7) You are allowed up to 2 flaws.
8) Leadership (or any similar variant) is not allowed.

Points are awarded based on success in the challenges and how little you need to use the UMD skill. Similarly, the more cheese you use the less points that you get; this being said we are working with cheese as defined by me.

You also get more points the closer you stick to "monk". The more you use monk class features the better, basically this is about being primarily a monk with other abilities tacked on to improve the monk. Where the line is is mostly up to me so feel free to ask questions.

You also gain points based on how viable the build is from level 1 onwards. For example, you could choose to take Vow of Poverty at level 1 and then use Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos at level 20 to pick up eleven extra feats but you would loose points because playing a monk from level 1 to 20 with VoP isn't particularly viable.

Let's see, infinite loops are also generally barred.

Now for the reward. The best respondent (as judged by me) gets first look at a project that I am working on.

I reserve the right to modify or clarify these rules at any time for any reason.

So have at it, let's see what you can do.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm. I might be interested. What about classes like Psionic Fist, which advance monk levels but also grant psionics/casting? And, I assume the answer is now, but what about any psionic class with Tashalatora?

[mattie_p]

Aww, man, I wish I had time for this, sounds like fun. I will watch with interest.

[Namfuak]

Do you mean that the build just needs 17 effective monk levels (that seems to be what you mean by 17 levels of monk or prcs that advance monk, but I'm not sure).

Also, is LA buyoff allowed?

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm. I might be interested. What about classes like Psionic Fist, which advance monk levels but also grant psionics/casting? And, I assume the answer is now, but what about any psionic class with Tashalatora?

Psionic Fist has the Monk Abilities class feature so it's allowed, that being said I forgot to add to the OP that you get more points the closer you stick to "monk".

Tashalatora isn't allowed, you need at least 17 HD in "Monk" or "PrC that advances Monk Abilities".

[Namfuak]

Psionic Fist has the Monk Abilities class feature so it's allowed, that being said I forgot to add to the OP that you get more points the closer you stick to "monk".

Tashalatora isn't allowed, you need at least 17 HD in "Monk" or "PrC that advances Monk Abilities".

What about Tashalatora on a PrC?

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you mean that the build just needs 17 effective monk levels (that seems to be what you mean by 17 levels of monk or prcs that advance monk, but I'm not sure).
You need at least 17 HD in the Monk class or in PrC's that advance Monk abilities.


Also, is LA buyoff allowed?
No, ECL 20. If you want to include a second build with what you would do if LA buyoff is allowed then feel free but for the challenge it's not allowed.


What about Tashalatora on a PrC?
The class must have a feature like "Monk abilities" for it to count towards the HD limit.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... it's been a while since I brushed up on Elder Evils... Hatchling Phaerimm (LA+2; the 1 RHD vanishes when you pick up class levels) Monk-17/Sorcerer-1 would theoretically cast as a Sorcerer-19, and could do a pretty decent Mailman build. Maybe use the Sanctum Spell (Greater) Arcane Fusion trick?

[Piggy Knowles]

Are bloodlines kosher?

[Elric VIII]

What counts as official sources? Dragon Magazine? 3rd party material endorsed by WotC (Dragonlance, etc)?

How does crafting factor into the rule about not exceeding WBL (I assume this is why the bonus exp is there)?

[Juntao112]

Cancer Mage counts as cheese, correct?

[A_S]

Does Sacred Fist count as a monk PrC? It doesn't have a single "Monk Abilities" class feature, but it does advance the Monk's AC Bonus, Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement, it just does so as separate class features.

[Flickerdart]

Hmm... it's been a while since I brushed up on Elder Evils... Hatchling Phaerimm (LA+2; the 1 RHD vanishes when you pick up class levels) Monk-17/Sorcerer-1 would theoretically cast as a Sorcerer-19, and could do a pretty decent Mailman build. Maybe use the Sanctum Spell (Greater) Arcane Fusion trick?
I'm pretty sure you get zero points from that, since you're not actually a monk despite having monk levels. The Phaerimm isn't just carrying the day, but also the week, month, and year.

[Juntao112]

You could make something interesting with the Invisible Fist and Dark Moon ACFs to get total concealment, invisibility, and blink. From then on... hm. Psionic Fist does advance Monk abilities...

Monk 9/Psychic Warrior 1/Psionic Fist 10?

Probably doesn't have enough raw power.


Does Sacred Fist count as a monk PrC? It doesn't have a single "Monk Abilities" class feature, but it does advance the Monk's AC Bonus, Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement, it just does so as separate class features.

Ur-Priest is an excellent idea!

[A_S]

Ur-Priest is an excellent idea!

Not, actually, what I was thinking of...but could still be a good idea.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Hmm, I suppose I can try depending on when the deadline is. Tippy how long do we have? Unfortunately I'm way too busy within the next 2 weeks to write out anything more than a loose build before I get free time later to formalize it :smallannoyed:.

[Draz74]

I don't suppose Diplomancing the Elder Evils into "Fanatical" status and ordering them to commit suicide counts as "soloing" them? :smallamused: Hey, Monks do have Diplomacy as a class skill and Tongue of the Sun and Moon as a class feature to support it!


I'm pretty sure you get zero points from that, since you're not actually a monk despite having monk levels. The Phaerimm isn't just carrying the day, but also the week, month, and year.
What if (using all his Sorcerer casting ability) he can destroy the Elder Evils with his unarmed strike attacks, rather than with an Orb of Fire? Does that count, even though 98.7% of the power is still coming from spellcasting?

[tyckspoon]

Is the WBL based on the real value of your items, or just what you paid for them? Because if it's based on what was paid for them, I'm thinking the first step in any build here is a Wish Trap >.>

[Endarire]

I'm thinking of a Monk/Beholder Mage (via PAO)/Enlightened Fist. Would such a thing count?

And how about Swordsage/Unarmed Swordsage, since it gets Monk-like abilities?

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Hm... damnit, finals. Well, it will be interesting to watch.

I can think of a few ways of nullifying the Elder Evils... immunity to mind-affecting, fear, negative energy, and protection from too much positive energy would suffice for beating the carps out of these guys. That, and serious amounts of psionic fist, warshaper, and drunken master. The psionic fist and warshaper to gain larger size unarmed strikes, and then using the drunken master's abilities with flurry of blows to hurl deadly chopsticks/D&D sourcebooks that deal your unarmed damage, and some monk's belt and superior unarmed strike so you don't have to worry about damage...fell the destroyer of worlds with your eating utensils/optimization material! Fist of the forest could fit in there somewhere, and maybe some out of combat healing via shadow sun ninja...

[Chronos]

You probably also want to put a wealth limit on consumable items, lest a challenger just use a bunch of Candles of Invocation and Dusts of Sneezing and Choking. Which would admittedly not be worth many points, though I suppose you're at least using stealth skills to get close enough to use the Dust.

Similarly, I suppose you could get yourself an Eternal Wand of Explosive Runes.

[Juntao112]

Not, actually, what I was thinking of...but could still be a good idea.

I was going for a King of Smack-esque build myself.

[Spuddles]

What if (using all his Sorcerer casting ability) he can destroy the Elder Evils with his unarmed strike attacks, rather than with an Orb of Fire? Does that count, even though 98.7% of the power is still coming from spellcasting?

HADOKEN!!!!!

[zlefin]

while the challenge sounds cool; there's no information provided on the elder evil stats or where to obtain them. Having a challenge without providing a viewable source for the opponents you're supposed to beat seems a bit weird.

[A_S]

while the challenge sounds cool; there's no information provided on the elder evil stats or where to obtain them. Having a challenge without providing a viewable source for the opponents you're supposed to beat seems a bit weird.

Each chapter in the Elder Evils book has info on how to run a series of encounters related to that evil, each culminating in a fight with its aspect (which are statted out). I believe those are the challenges Tippy is referring to. Oh, I see. Well, book access isn't an unusual expectation in optimization challenges, I think.

*edit* My current build is Monk 2/Sha'ir 3/Enlightened Fist 10/Sacred Fist 5, as long as Sacred Fist is ruled legit. Still working on the details.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Each chapter in the Elder Evils book has info on how to run a series of encounters related to that evil, each culminating in a fight with its aspect (which are statted out). I believe those are the challenges Tippy is referring to.

*edit* My current build is Monk 2/Sha'ir 3/Enlightened Fist 10/Sacred Fist 5, as long as Sacred Fist is ruled legit. Still working on the details.

I think he means that there are many people who lack the book or cannot borrow it from a friend or a library or something.

[Spuddles]

Do arbitrarily large sums of damage count as "infinite loops?" I am assuming they do.

[Juntao112]

while the challenge sounds cool; there's no information provided on the elder evil stats or where to obtain them. Having a challenge without providing a viewable source for the opponents you're supposed to beat seems a bit weird.

The internet can help you find the Elder Evils sourcebook. And that is all I am willing to say on the subject.

[Srasy]

Does Fist of the Forest count as "Monk levels" because it is very monk themed but doesn't say advances monk abilities

[mattie_p]

I think he means that there are many people who lack the book or cannot borrow it from a friend or a library or something.

Look, all these competitions are limited in that respect. Want to do Iron Chef? Cool! Oh, you don't have access to Draconomicon? Wait til next round.

The people with more access to splats and more free time will do better. That is perfectly ok by me.

(Note, I have access to dozens of splats but lack the free time).

[Juntao112]

Look, all these competitions are limited in that respect. Want to do Iron Chef? Cool! Oh, you don't have access to Draconomicon? Wait til next round.


If they're reading about it on a forum via the internet, they can get the books.

Via Amazon, I mean.

[Spuddles]

I think necropolitan (evolved, spellstitched) is the cheapest way to get immunity vs all the DC53 saves vs. death.

[zlefin]

that's not really accurate; there's a reason those challenges specifically try to use things from core + completes; because that's what most people have. Forcing people to illegally download something to be able to complete in a challenge due to needing an obscure sourcebook does not seem like a good thing to me; when i'm sure you could pick a bunch of appropriate challenges from say, the epic monster list on the srd.

[Scow2]

that's not really accurate; there's a reason those challenges specifically try to use things from core + completes; because that's what most people have. Forcing people to illegally download something to be able to complete in a challenge due to needing an obscure sourcebook does not seem like a good thing to me; when i'm sure you could pick a bunch of appropriate challenges from say, the epic monster list on the srd.

You don't need to illegally download an obscure sourcebook. So far, you're the only one who's suggested doing that. Try ordering a used copy?

[Zweisteine]

Not sure if anybody did it yet, but, just for fun, of course, I shall submit my new build:

Kobold Monk 17/Swordsage 3
Then you do a Pun-Pun.

[Spuddles]

that's not really accurate; there's a reason those challenges specifically try to use things from core + completes; because that's what most people have. Forcing people to illegally download something to be able to complete in a challenge due to needing an obscure sourcebook does not seem like a good thing to me; when i'm sure you could pick a bunch of appropriate challenges from say, the epic monster list on the srd.

If you have a problem with how OP is doing things, run your own challenge :smallsigh:

[Emperor Tippy]

Are bloodlines kosher?

If in the SRD or WotC published book, yes.


What counts as official sources? Dragon Magazine? 3rd party material endorsed by WotC (Dragonlance, etc)?
Published by WotC. All 3.5 books, all 3.5 online articles, Dragon Magazine, 3.0 sources that aren't overwritten by 3.5 stuff.


How does crafting factor into the rule about not exceeding WBL (I assume this is why the bonus exp is there)?
You get 760,000 GP (market value) worth of items; how you get said items is irrelevant. Crafting does not allow you to exceed WBL.


Cancer Mage counts as cheese, correct?
Yes.


Does Sacred Fist count as a monk PrC? It doesn't have a single "Monk Abilities" class feature, but it does advance the Monk's AC Bonus, Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement, it just does so as separate class features.

Yes it counts. Although remember that Elder Evils are real nasty to divine spellcasters.


Hmm, I suppose I can try depending on when the deadline is. Tippy how long do we have? Unfortunately I'm way too busy within the next 2 weeks to write out anything more than a loose build before I get free time later to formalize it :smallannoyed:.

Until someone posts something suitably awesome, at least until someone posts a monk that manages to complete the challenge without having Arcane, Divine, or Psionic casting at very high levels. It's cool to see all of the ways to cram accelerated spell advancement into things but it's not really the point of this contest.


I don't suppose Diplomancing the Elder Evils into "Fanatical" status and ordering them to commit suicide counts as "soloing" them? :smallamused: Hey, Monks do have Diplomacy as a class skill and Tongue of the Sun and Moon as a class feature to support it!
Immunity to mind affecting is something that every Elder Evil has, so they can't be made fanatical. And yes, generally diplomancy looses you points.


What if (using all his Sorcerer casting ability) he can destroy the Elder Evils with his unarmed strike attacks, rather than with an Orb of Fire? Does that count, even though 98.7% of the power is still coming from spellcasting?
It succeeds but gets very few points.


Is the WBL based on the real value of your items, or just what you paid for them? Because if it's based on what was paid for them, I'm thinking the first step in any build here is a Wish Trap >.>
Real market value. If you want to build in the ability to totally respec your WBL in between fights (like with chain gating) then that is fine but you aren't allowed to start any fight with more than 760,000 GP worth of items.


I'm thinking of a Monk/Beholder Mage (via PAO)/Enlightened Fist. Would such a thing count?
It can meet the requirements but expect very few points.


And how about Swordsage/Unarmed Swordsage, since it gets Monk-like abilities?
No, it's not a monk.


Do arbitrarily large sums of damage count as "infinite loops?" I am assuming they do.
Depends on the method used but as a general rule, yes. Bonus points for if it's one I've never seen before but negative points if it is one that I have seen before. New cheese wins points, old cheese is tons of negative points unless you were the one who first invented it.


Does Fist of the Forest count as "Monk levels" because it is very monk themed but doesn't say advances monk abilities
It's acceptable but somewhat iffy.


that's not really accurate; there's a reason those challenges specifically try to use things from core + completes; because that's what most people have. Forcing people to illegally download something to be able to complete in a challenge due to needing an obscure sourcebook does not seem like a good thing to me; when i'm sure you could pick a bunch of appropriate challenges from say, the epic monster list on the srd.

No, the point is that Elder Evils is generally considered to have the hardest challenges for it's CR in 3.5 and the Monk is generally considered to be one of the weakest classes in 3.5. I want to see who else can figure out how to solo the hardest challenges in the official 3.5 published rules as one of the weakest classes in the game.


Not sure if anybody did it yet, but, just for fun, of course, I shall submit my new build:

Kobold Monk 17/Swordsage 3
Then you do a Pun-Pun.

Are you Khan the Destroyer? If yes then you win and are allowed to use Pun-Pun and manipulate form. In the infinitely more likely chance that you aren't, -100 trillion points.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Until someone posts something suitably awesome, at least until someone posts a monk that manages to complete the challenge without having Arcane, Divine, or Psionic casting at very high levels. It's cool to see all of the ways to cram accelerated spell advancement into things but it's not really the point of this contest.


Back to the drawing board to only use limited casting :smallcool:

[Vknight]

So no Unarmed Swordsage levels at all?
Level 20. With at least 17 levels towards Monk things

760,000gp for gear. And unless we have a way to change our gear we must stay with the same gear

Sacred First counts cool
Does Fist of the Forest count?

Anything else that should be noted?

-Edit-
Oh and will monsters that don't work will be fixed?
Marcus Hape can't be Rogue 4/Assassin 4/Thrall of Demogorgon 4. Because of the prerequisites of the Prestige Classes

[Emperor Tippy]

So no Unarmed Swordsage levels at all?
Well up to 3, but they don't count as "Monk" levels.


Level 20. With at least 17 levels towards Monk things

760,000gp for gear. And unless we have a way to change our gear we must stay with the same gear
Yep.


Does Fist of the Forest count?
Yes but more points are given for not using it (the same with any other PrC's that are similar).


Anything else that should be noted?
Probably. Nothing off the top of my head at the moment though.


Oh and will monsters that don't work will be fixed?
Marcus Hape can't be Rogue 4/Assassin 4/Thrall of Demogorgon 4. Because of the prerequisites of the Prestige Classes
Nah, I'll probably leave them as written. I might decide not to be lazy and to fix any problems but probably not.

[iDesu]

I'm thinking a Human Gheden, for immunity to non-lethal damage, (+1 LA, DR 313, pg 63) with the acid earth subtype added by the ritual of elements (+1 LA, -36,000 gp, -1,440 xp, SS pg 148) and the fire subtype added by mantle of fiery spirit. Take feats and flaws to get troll-blooded and that should be able to deal with the damage they deal, right?

We'd still need to worry about their other attacks, so armor enchanted with soulfire, a ring of freedom of movement, water breathing, and an item of mind blank would all be necessary. I still need to go over the elder evils and see if I'm missing anything, but I think this should offer protection. Still need to figure out a way to kill them, though.

I'd probably try and save some funds and use some wish abuse for the +5 inherent bonuses.

[Vknight]

Well up to 3, but they don't count as "Monk" levels.


Yep.


Yes but more points are given for not using it (the same with any other PrC's that are similar).


Probably. Nothing off the top of my head at the moment though.


Nah, I'll probably leave them as written. I might decide not to be lazy and to fix any problems but probably not.

Cool oh umm Does Unarmed Strike count for Superior Unarmed Strike and other feats?

Outside of that I have an idea
I like this Tippy
Drunken Master?

[Emperor Tippy]

Cool oh umm Does Unarmed Strike count for Superior Unarmed Strike and other feats?

Outside of that I have an idea
I like this Tippy
Drunken Master?

Monks get Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1. Oh yeah, Monks also get proficiency with Unarmed Strikes.

[Juntao112]

Does Tippy believe Unarmed Strikes can be thrown?

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm thinking a Human Gheden, for immunity to non-lethal damage, (+1 LA, DR 313, pg 63) with the acid subtype added by the ritual of elements (+1 LA, SS pg 148) and the fire subtype added by mantle of fiery spirit. Take feats and flaws to get troll-blooded and that should be able to deal with the damage they deal, right?
You do have to meet the regional requirements for Troll-blooded, but yes.


Does Tippy believe Unarmed Strikes can be thrown?

No Tippy does not. What made you ask that?

Oh yeah, I should probably add that you aren't allowed to make yourself Sizing, Morphing, etc. Well you can but it's like negative a hundred points.

[Flickerdart]

Does Tippy believe Unarmed Strikes can be thrown?
The more appropriate question, I feel, is "can Unarmed Strikes be reattached?".

[Seer_of_Heart]

The more appropriate question, I feel, is "can Unarmed Strikes be reattached?".

Why reattach them when you can regrow them :smallcool:

[Xervous]

So I am assuming for sanity's sake that a shadow sun ninja who overloads and turns into a vampire would count the LA as well as be disqualified by the "becomes an NPC" line?

[Seer_of_Heart]

Do shenanigans to obtain free wishes to get +5 inherent to all your ability scores count against your WBL? Also are wish shenanigans allowed as long as WBL is maintained?

[Emperor Tippy]

So I am assuming for sanity's sake that a shadow sun ninja who overloads and turns into a vampire would count the LA as well as be disqualified by the "becomes an NPC" line?

Becoming an NPC means that you loose, yes.


Do shenanigans to obtain free wishes to get +5 inherent to all your ability scores count against your WBL?
Not really, assuming that your build includes what method you used.


Also are wish shenanigans allowed as long as WBL is maintained?
Pretty much yes. Too much Wish abuse looses you points but yes its generally allowed.

[Chronos]

Just as a sort of rough guideline for those of us without the book, what's the range of CRs of the Elder Evils? Because I'm getting the impression that they're pretty far Epic, and anything that allows an ECL 20 character to beat deep-epic foes is kind of by definition cheese.

Oh, and iDesu, there's an acid subtype? News to me.

[Xervous]

Item familiars net you a penalty for inelegance?

[iDesu]

Just as a sort of rough guideline for those of us without the book, what's the range of CRs of the Elder Evils? Because I'm getting the impression that they're pretty far Epic, and anything that allows an ECL 20 character to beat deep-epic foes is kind of by definition cheese.

Oh, and iDesu, there's an acid subtype? News to me.

Blah, earth subtype or whatever it's called. It does grant immunity to acid, though, which is the important part.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just as a sort of rough guideline for those of us without the book, what's the range of CRs of the Elder Evils? Because I'm getting the impression that they're pretty far Epic, and anything that allows an ECL 20 character to beat deep-epic foes is kind of by definition cheese.
Generally CR 16 to CR 25 for the Elder Evils (or their aspects) themselves, although they all have a few associated challenges of lower CR's.

And note where I said cheese by my standards. That is a level far above what most people consider cheese (for example, the Chaos Shuffle on an elf doesn't even come close to rating for me; although infinite feats from magical locations or the like does rate).


Item familiars net you a penalty for inelegance?

Depends on how much you are abusing it. And nothing stops the Elder Evil from destroying it, which leaves you at a big disadvantage for the future fights.

[Sith_Happens]

No Tippy does not. What made you ask that?

The fact that +1 Throwing Returning is actually used as an example in the Necklace of Natural Weapons reprint here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a)?

[Emperor Tippy]

The fact that +1 Throwing Returning is actually used as an example in the Necklace of Natural Weapons reprint here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a)?

Bah, if WotC actually published it then I will allow it I suppose; but that doesn't change the fact that I find it really stupid to throw your limbs at your enemies.

[Carth]

Just think of them as stretching, making it more like a long range punch than a throw. Like Dhalsim (sp?) from street fighter.

[ShadowFireLance]

Bah, if WotC actually published it then I will allow it I suppose; but that doesn't change the fact that I find it really stupid to throw your limbs at your enemies.

Grab an Adventurer, and have him slice off your Hydra head, then chuck it at them? :smallwink:

Anywho, This is going to be interesting.

[Kazyan]

I have an idea, though I haven't looked at the Elder Evils to see what all they can specifically do. It involves Bloodstorm Blade.

[NM020110]

For the challenge, may I purchase a mule as per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm?

[Emperor Tippy]

For the challenge, may I purchase a mule as per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm?

Why wouldn't you be able to? It has a price.

[Flickerdart]

Bah, if WotC actually published it then I will allow it I suppose; but that doesn't change the fact that I find it really stupid to throw your limbs at your enemies.
Look up Detach in Savage Species.

[Sith_Happens]

Bah, if WotC actually published it then I will allow it I suppose; but that doesn't change the fact that I find it really stupid to throw your limbs at your enemies.

Remember, one man's stupid is another man's awesome.:smallwink:

[Emperor Tippy]

Remember, one man's stupid is another man's awesome.:smallwink:

Yes but I'm the judge so my criteria take precedence. :smallwink:

[Xervous]

when is our character given access to this wealth during their development? As per WBL guidelines in DMG?

[Reverent-One]

Bah, if WotC actually published it then I will allow it I suppose; but that doesn't change the fact that I find it really stupid to throw your limbs at your enemies.

Even if you're a warforged?

[Piggy Knowles]

I've got two build stubs, one with moderate cheese and one a bit on the stinky side. I'm currently checking through Elder Evils to see if the lighter cheese build will cut it.

EDIT: Can we choose what order we take the encounters? If I kill Gorguth, do I get to keep Skyshadow for future encounters?


Bound to Master (Ex): If Skyshadow's master (currently Gorguth) is slain, Skyshadow becomes inert... ...The creature who delivered the blow that killed the previous master can become the creature's new master or can designate a different master.

[Emperor Tippy]

when is our character given access to this wealth during their development? As per WBL guidelines in DMG?

You can get it all at level 20 if you want. You just aren't allowed more than 760,000 GP worth of items on your sheet at any point in time.

[Piggy Knowles]

I edited my previous post to add a question, but actually, I have another. Are we taking on every statted enemy in Elder Evils, or just working our way through the "Encounter" sections of the book (ie, the colored pages at the end of each chapter)?

[NM020110]

Alright, I've got a potentially workable solution. To avoid working with umd, I'll need two psionic powers to be used.

Would it be possible to purchase a use of a psionic power as though it were a spell as per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm?

[Renen]

Thrown natural attack isn't a thing?
Japanese robots and their rocket arms disagree.
Inspector Gadget does too.

[Emperor Tippy]

EDIT: Can we choose what order we take the encounters? If I kill Gorguth, do I get to keep Skyshadow for future encounters?

Depends, but probably not. It will either be random or lowest to highest CR.


I edited my previous post to add a question, but actually, I have another. Are we taking on every statted enemy in Elder Evils, or just working our way through the "Encounter" sections of the book (ie, the colored pages at the end of each chapter)?

Generally every statted enemy but primarily just the actual final bosses (i.e. the Elder Evils themselves). The more you can beat the better of course, but the minimum for a pass is being able to beat each of the 9 Elder Evils in order from lowest to highest CR.


Alright, I've got a potentially workable solution. To avoid working with umd, I'll need two psionic powers to be used.

Would it be possible to purchase a use of a psionic power as though it were a spell as per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm?

Why wouldn't it be? And yes, you can purchase them.


Thrown natural attack isn't a thing?
Japanese robots and their rocket arms disagree.
Inspector Gadget does too.

It's a thing that I find stupid. You can do it but I prefer builds that don't do it. Not against the rules of the challenge just personal preference.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Done.
Garnull the White
LG Frostblood Half-Orc (Hordelands, Zealot of the Written Word)

Flaws: Bravado and Insomniac (Dragon 328)
1. Transmuter Wizard 1, Endurance, Tireless, Dodge, Mobility, Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, Abrupt Jaunt
2. Monk 1, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
3. Monk 2, Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting
4. Monk 3
5. Binder 1
6. Enlightened Fist 1, Carmendine Monk
7. Enlightened Fist 2
8. Enlightened Fist 3
9. Enlightened Fist 4, Extend Spell
10. Spelldancer 1
11. Master of the East Wind 1
12. Master of the East Wind 2, Persistent Spell
13. Master of the East Wind 3
14. Master of the East Wind 4
15. Master of the East Wind 5, Extraordinary Spell Aim
16. Master of the East Wind 6
17. Master of the East Wind 7
18. Master of the East Wind 8, Reach Spell
19. Master of the East Wind 9
20. Master of the East Wind 10

Prohibited schools: Evocation and Necromancy

Effective Monk level: 17
Unarmed strike level: 22 (belt)
Unarmored AC level: 22 (belt)
Unarmored speed level: 19 (carmendine)

Effective Wizard level: 15
Caster level: 20 (practiced + ioun stone)

Unlimited spelldancing thanks to fast ability healing and immunity to fatigue means free extend/reach/persist on anything he casts.

Starmantle Cloak + Persistent Extraordinary Spell Aim Antimagic Field, all nonartifact weapons that would strike him are automatically destroyed instead, including natural weapons.

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop
Extended Greater Magic Weapon
Extended Persistent Wraithstrike
Extended Persistent Bladeweave
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph: War Troll
Extended Persistent Bite of the Werebear
Extended Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire
Extended Persistent Arcane Spellsurge
Extended Superior Resistance
Extended Energy Immunity x5
Extended Mind Blank
Extended Persistent Superior Invisibility
Extended Greater Luminous Armor
Extended Persistent Shield
Extended Persistent Swift Fly
Extended Persistent Ray Deflection
Extended Persistent Dragonsight
Extended Persistent Reach Ebon Eyes
Extended Persistent Reach Greater Heroism
You should have the idea by now. There's not really anything in the game that can even pose a credible threat to him.

If an opponent can't detect him due to Superior Invisibility, he can dance for a bit and open up with an Extended Persistent Reach Irresistible Dance.

Reach Spell isn't entirely necessary. It can easily be replaced with Improved Familiar: Ice Mephit, which he can Extended Persistent Bite of the Weretiger and Superior Invisibility and Swift Fly and Draconic Polymorph: Arrow Demon and give it two GMW +5 mighty composite longbows. It can be replaced with Invisible Spell if wearing a robe/cloak over Greater Luminous Armor wouldn't block its luminescence.

I honestly haven't really given more than a glance to any of the creatures in Elder Evils, but this character is more than capable of researching/divining a given opponent, showing up with the perfect set of buffs, and completely destroying them with little to no threat to himself.

[Vknight]

Ring of Reduction from Lords of Madness question could you get the opposite? For the same cost?

Complete Champion(Fist of the Forest)
Dragon Magazine Issue 313(Half-Minotaur)
Complete Psionic(Zerth Cenobite. Psionic Powers)
Expanded Psionic(Psychic Warrior. Psionic Powers. Psionic Fist. Unavoidable Strike)
Tome of Battle(Snap Kick)
Complete Warrior(Round-about Kick)
Unearthed Arcana(Flaws, Monk Style Cobra)
Races of Dragon(Dragonborn)
Sandstorm(Bottle of Endless Sand)

[Emperor Tippy]

Done.
Garnull the White
LG Frostblood Half-Orc (Hordelands, Zealot of the Written Word)

Flaws: Bravado and Insomniac (Dragon 328)
1. Transmuter Wizard 1, Endurance, Tireless, Dodge, Mobility, Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, Abrupt Jaunt
2. Monk 1, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
3. Monk 2, Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting
4. Monk 3
5. Binder 1
6. Enlightened Fist 1, Carmendine Monk
7. Enlightened Fist 2
8. Enlightened Fist 3
9. Enlightened Fist 4, Extend Spell
10. Spelldancer 1
11. Master of the East Wind 1
12. Master of the East Wind 2, Persistent Spell
13. Master of the East Wind 3
14. Master of the East Wind 4
15. Master of the East Wind 5, Extraordinary Spell Aim
16. Master of the East Wind 6
17. Master of the East Wind 7
18. Master of the East Wind 8, Reach Spell
19. Master of the East Wind 9
20. Master of the East Wind 10

Prohibited schools: Evocation and Necromancy

Effective Monk level: 17
Unarmed strike level: 22 (belt)
Unarmored AC level: 22 (belt)
Unarmored speed level: 19 (carmendine)

Effective Wizard level: 15
Caster level: 20 (practiced + ioun stone)

Unlimited spelldancing thanks to fast ability healing and immunity to fatigue means free extend/reach/persist on anything he casts.

Starmantle Cloak + Persistent Extraordinary Spell Aim Antimagic Field, all nonartifact weapons that would strike him are automatically destroyed instead, including natural weapons.

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop
Extended Greater Magic Weapon
Extended Persistent Wraithstrike
Extended Persistent Bladeweave
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph: War Troll
Extended Persistent Bite of the Werebear
Extended Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire
Extended Persistent Arcane Spellsurge
Extended Superior Resistance
Extended Energy Immunity x5
Extended Mind Blank
Extended Persistent Superior Invisibility
Extended Greater Luminous Armor
Extended Persistent Shield
Extended Persistent Swift Fly
Extended Persistent Ray Deflection
Extended Persistent Dragonsight
Extended Persistent Reach Ebon Eyes
Extended Persistent Reach Greater Heroism
You should have the idea by now. There's not really anything in the game that can even pose a credible threat to him.

If an opponent can't detect him due to Superior Invisibility, he can dance for a bit and open up with an Extended Persistent Reach Irresistible Dance.

Reach Spell isn't entirely necessary. It can easily be replaced with Improved Familiar: Ice Mephit, which he can Extended Persistent Bite of the Weretiger and Superior Invisibility and Swift Fly and Draconic Polymorph: Arrow Demon and give it two GMW +5 mighty composite longbows. It can be replaced with Invisible Spell if wearing a robe/cloak over Greater Luminous Armor wouldn't block its luminescence.

I honestly haven't really given more than a glance to any of the creatures in Elder Evils, but this character is more than capable of researching/divining a given opponent, showing up with the perfect set of buffs, and completely destroying them with little to no threat to himself.

Well that is one that could probably do it, although it looses points for its casting abilities. Although the fact that it's not immune to negative enemy damage or capable of surviving long term in space are marks against it.

[Juntao112]

You only need a few magical items to survive in D&D space, though.

[NM020110]

So probably losing a lot of points on elegance, but this should* work.


Monk 20, with one abyssal heritor feat. No other build details matter.

1.) Purchase a gate to the Faerun Prime Material, and find your way to Toril. 1530 gold.
2.) Purchase a pair of mind switches, one with a local species with scales, one with you. For the next 110 minutes, you inhabit that body. 1320 gold.
3.) Purchase another travel gate back to your plane of origin, where the challenge will presumably occur. 1530 gold, 109 minutes remaining.
4.) Burn a candle of invocation to summon a sarrukh, and order it to grant you Singular Enemy(anything that you won't be fighting in the next 110 minutes) and the implosion sla of the adamantine horror. 8400 gold, 108 minutes remaining.
5.) If you don't already have supernatural tranformation on your implosion sla, purchase a casting of shun the dark chaos. Select supernatural transformation, and make your implosion sla su. 1320 gold, 107 minutes remaining.

6.) For the next 107 minutes, you have at will supernatural(no sr, and I don't think there are any elder evils with the non-"infinite sr" magic immunity) implosion, and are immune to attack. Take no downtime; begin the challenge. If time runs low and there are still living enemies, finish the current one and proceed to 7.

7.) Evaluate if the abilities the Sarrukh granted are considered a part of you(GOTO 7a) or a part of your temporary body(GOTO 7b).
7a.) Allow the mind switch to time out. You are back in Toril. Purchase a gate back to your plane of origin and continue fighting. 1530 gold; time limit eliminated.
7b.) Allow the mind switch to time out. There is now an invincible snake with at will implosion at the field of battle. You are back in Toril. GOTO 2.


*I haven't actually checked Elder Evils. Abilities to compensate for things I'm not aware of are trivial to add, however.
**The original plan was to do the above to a mule, which would have been funny, but might have violated the "solo" portion of the challenge.

***List of potential flaws:
1.) Can gate put you in another multiverse?
2.) If something won't die to that, the loop continues until gold is expended. I could add more abilities at 4, but that makes it less elegant. Since it's basically the opening step to pun-pun, it doesn't need any more penalties...
3.) If 7b.) triggers, you're creating enemies rather difficult to defeat, which while not technically a part of the challenge still strikes me an inefficient.

[Juntao112]

But mules are treated as gear. Just like lanterns, ships, and women.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well that is one that could probably do it, although it looses points for its casting abilities. Although the fact that it's not immune to negative enemy damage or capable of surviving long term in space are marks against it.

loses*

The casting is for buffs, divinations, and utility, he's more than capable of using nothing but unarmed strikes against a given foe.

A Necklace of Adaptation is well within his budget, and more than capable of allowing him to survive indefinitely in space. So far I've only given him a Monk's Belt and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

With what I've already mentioned he's already immune to all five energy types, mind-affecting, critical hits, physical attacks, ranged touch attacks, and targeted effects if he cannot be detected. If he gets his AMF onto an opponent then they cannot use spells or supernatural abilities against him. It's a bit late to be reading every BBEG in that book, what abilities do any of them have that these steps won't cover?

[Xervous]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou

elder evils all have blindsight 500 and at will true seeing, both of which screw perfect invisibility over royally. The only way to reliably avoid detection and targeting by every elder evil is to have darkstalker, hide in plain sight, and a hide modifier of +122* OR traveling 1005 ft linearly while making a spring attack or similar.

*The highest spot check of any elder evil is held by Ragnorra, a whopping +83 when you are at the main site of engagement. Hiding while attacking is a -20 penalty. Ragnorra can get as high as 103 on spot, so you must ensure that you tie this with your lowest roll.

[Sith_Happens]

So what counts as defeating Zargon?

[Emperor Tippy]

So what counts as defeating Zargon?

Beating him up, taking his horn, and being in good enough condition to Wish yourself to the Volcano to throw his horn in.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou

elder evils all have blindsight 500 and at will true seeing, both of which screw perfect invisibility over royally. The only way to reliably avoid detection and targeting by every elder evil is to have darkstalker, hide in plain sight, and a hide modifier of +123 OR traveling 1005 ft linearly while making a spring attack or similar.

Superior Invisibility (SC) makes him undetectable by blindsight, blindsense, scent, and tremorsense specifically, and is concealed from all senses except touch generally. Creatures under the effects of the spell can normally be detected by true seeing, but that has a range of only 120 ft. and he can easily move from outside that range to putting them inside his AMF within a single round. Not to mention True Seeing is a divination, and Mind Blank makes him immune to all divination effects. Telepathy is mind-affecting, and is completely thwarted by Mind Blank.

[tyckspoon]

Done.
Garnull the White
LG Frostblood Half-Orc (Hordelands, Zealot of the Written Word)


You'll want to invest in some dispel protection. A couple of the Elder Evils and their servants have access to Greater Dispel at a higher caster level than yours, which could significantly wreck your day.

Edit: Also Father Lymic has a named follower who is probably more dangerous than Father Lymic is that has Disjunction in his spellbook, although it's not one of his standard spells prepared.

[Xervous]

Well I'll be... should have checked SpC instead of CAr on that...

[Sith_Happens]

Beating him up, taking his horn, and being in good enough condition to Wish yourself to the Volcano to throw his horn in.

Yeah, it's the volcano part that's tricky and needs some pretty beefy magic to accomplish without turning it into an entire quest of its own, which is why I asked.

[Juntao112]

Beating him up, taking his horn, and being in good enough condition to Wish yourself to the Volcano to throw his horn in.

I think I've seen this movie before...

[iDesu]

I think I've seen this movie before...

You should probably invest in a giant eagle, it'll be a much quicker journey than walking.

[Xervous]

On another note, here's as close as I'm getting to that +122 Hide before I nod off.
+14 __ 18 dex + 5 from tome + 5 from levelup + 6 from enhancement + 2 kobold +2 reduce person
+23 ranks
+23 item familiar
+12 kobold's slight frame + reduce person
+8 dark template via collar of umbral metamorphosis
+10 ring of chameleon power
+5 hat of anonymity
+20 invisibility
= 115

[Emperor Tippy]

Superior Invisibility does not, however, beat touchsight. Which means that getting within 130 feet of Pandorym results in it detecting you.

It also shuts down all teleportation (bar Wish transport travelers).

And everyone of the Elder Evils is immune to mind affecting, which means Irresistible dance does nothing.

A single Dispel could also rip off all of your defenses and thanks to the AMF being aimed to exclude your square it offers no protection at all.

You are also on a fairly strict timer for the fight (300 damage done to Pandorym's prison and the world ends).

Your build could probably do it, but you need a different spell selection, tactics, and a whole host of items.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll want to invest in some dispel protection. A couple of the Elder Evils and their servants have access to Greater Dispel at a higher caster level than yours, which could significantly wreck your day.

Edit: Also Father Lymic has a named follower who is probably more dangerous than Father Lymic is that has Disjunction in his spellbook, although it's not one of his standard spells prepared.

Can't targeted dispel if you can't see the target, and I've yet to see anything they have that can get past his Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank + AMF. An area dispel that lands centered in the AMF does nothing. They could possibly target an area dispel at the edge of the AMF, assuming they're not already standing in the AMF and unable to cast. In that case the area could reach into his extraordinary spell aimed pocket, but if that happens he can Abrupt Jaunt if it would get him out of range, or just take it to the face and lose a single buff. Losing one buff to an area dispel will probably not stop him from winning the fight, unless they take his flight and it's a flying opponent. With Arcane Spellsurge he can just recast whatever he lost as a swift action (as all his buffs were cast yesterday and reprepared today) and continue the fight unhindered.


Superior Invisibility does not, however, beat touchsight. Which means that getting within 130 feet of Pandorym results in it detecting you.

It also shuts down all teleportation (bar Wish transport travelers).

And everyone of the Elder Evils is immune to mind affecting, which means Irresistible dance does nothing.

A single Dispel could also rip off all of your defenses and thanks to the AMF being aimed to exclude your square it offers no protection at all.

You are also on a fairly strict timer for the fight (300 damage done to Pandorym's prison and the world ends).

Your build could probably do it, but you need a different spell selection, tactics, and a whole host of items.

He can charge from outside of Touchsight range to adjacent, placing the opponent inside his AMF and negating any spells or psionic powers. Granted an incorporeal opponent will cease to exist in his AMF, so just do that and Ring of Three Wishes a dead magic area where it used to be and it's gone *forever*.

[Spuddles]

You do have to meet the regional requirements for Troll-blooded, but yes.

You can meet that with 2 ranks in know:local(lame FR place), can't you?

[Emperor Tippy]

Can't targeted dispel if you can't see the target, and I've yet to see anything they have that can get past his Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank + AMF. An area dispel that lands centered in the AMF does nothing. They could possibly target an area dispel at the edge of the AMF, assuming they're not already standing in the AMF and unable to cast. In that case the area could reach into his extraordinary spell aimed pocket, but if that happens he can Abrupt Jaunt if it would get him out of range, or just take it to the face and lose a single buff. Losing one buff to an area dispel will probably not stop him from winning the fight, unless they take his flight and it's a flying opponent. With Arcane Spellsurge he can just recast whatever he lost as a swift action (as all his buffs were cast yesterday and reprepared today) and continue the fight unhindered.

AMF doesn't beat Touchsight. It doesn't block line of effect.

AJ doesn't work against Pandorym.

Arcane Spellsurge only replaces one buff, a Dispel will rip them all off.

[Randomguy]

Done.
Garnull the White
LG Frostblood Half-Orc (Hordelands, Zealot of the Written Word)

Flaws: Bravado and Insomniac (Dragon 328)
1. Transmuter Wizard 1, Endurance, Tireless, Dodge, Mobility, Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, Abrupt Jaunt
Nitpick: You need to be a conjurer to get abrupt jaunt.

I'm assuming diplomancy to make friends with all the eldritch abominations would be frowned upon?

[Emperor Tippy]

He can charge from outside of Touchsight range to adjacent, placing the opponent inside his AMF and negating any spells or psionic powers. Granted an incorporeal opponent will cease to exist in his AMF, so just do that and Ring of Three Wishes a dead magic area where it used to be and it's gone *forever*.
No, Incorporeal Undead wink out of existence. An incorporeal outsider (like Pandorym) doesn't wink out.

Putting it inside an AMF does nothing much and on its turn it will exit the area and then rip off your buffs.

[Xervous]

hrm... if epic uses of skills are permitted...

DC 90* sleight of hand to move an adjacent willing creature 10 ft as a free action. If you are not allowed to target yourself with this, you're best bet is either fission or a familiar.

*with master pickpocket

original source of this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7893750)

with optimized sleight of hand on a monk, (perhaps Dvati if you aren't allowed to target yourself as an adjacent willing creature), you would have infinite Ex teleportation in 10 ft increments. Close to striking distance, full attack, move yourself away. All that remains are the equipments to nab for immunities.

IIRC there's a spell somewhere that lets you fit a dagger sized item or smaller in a secret flesh pouch in your skin, perfect place for an item familiar to go.

[Rubik]

I was thinking monk 17/illithid savant 3, using those IS levels to gain 20th level manifesting. If I primarily use my manifesting on powers that segue well with monk, and use monk ACFs and abilities to do the heavy lifting, would that be acceptable?

And believe me, I can make the monk part useful enough to make it monk-centric, but every bit helps, right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd been switching back and forth between Conjurer or Transmuter, ultimately decided on Conjurer as he's definitely not spending all his spells/day on buffs anyway, but forgot to change it back in the class name.

Putting Pandorym inside the AMF will make any magical effects centered on itself, including touchsight (range: personal), cease to function. Good call on AMF only displacing incorporeal undead, so it could just move out of it except due to a lack of wings its supernatural flight will be suppressed by the AMF, thus immobilizing it. Plus he's capable of casting 8th level spells, so like I said with a little research and planning he can easily show up equipped with exactly the right tools to defeat any of those opponents. I seriously doubt he's going from one big bad to the next all on the same day.

Edit: If you're not using magic/psionics transparency, then an automatic reset trap on his spellbook per CA p141 that projects a Null Psionics Field is easily within his budget.

[Emperor Tippy]

Putting Pandorym inside the AMF will make any magical effects centered on itself, including touchsight (range: personal), cease to function.
Only until it takes a move action to exit the area.


Good call on AMF only displacing incorporeal undead, so it could just move out of it except due to a lack of wings its supernatural flight will be suppressed by the AMF, thus immobilizing it.
Except that its flight isn't called out as Supernatural and thus isn't suppressed.


Plus he's capable of casting 8th level spells, so like I said with a little research and planning he can easily show up equipped with exactly the right tools to defeat any of those opponents. I seriously doubt he's going from one big bad to the next all on the same day.
Divination doesn't work against Elder Evils.


Edit: If you're not using magic/psionics transparency, then an automatic reset trap on his spellbook per CA p141 that projects a Null Psionics Field is easily within his budget.
I'm using transparency.

And note that this is just one fight. Another one takes place on a moon that deals constant negative energy damage and throws out negative levels like candy. You need to pick up immunity to that if you want to last.

[Emperor Tippy]

I was thinking monk 17/illithid savant 3, using those IS levels to gain 20th level manifesting. If I primarily use my manifesting on powers that segue well with monk, and use monk ACFs and abilities to do the heavy lifting, would that be acceptable?

And believe me, I can make the monk part useful enough to make it monk-centric, but every bit helps, right?

You can do so but it would have to be pretty awesome to make up for the negative points from using Illithid Savant.

[Draz74]

And note that this is just one fight. Another one takes place on a moon that deals constant negative energy damage and throws out negative levels like candy. You need to pick up immunity to that if you want to last.

Eh, using the A&EG rules for putting armor enhancements on Bracers of Armor, immunity to negative stuff is only 25k gp in the form of +1 Soulfire Bracers of Armor.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Only until it takes a move action to exit the area.


Except that its flight isn't called out as Supernatural and thus isn't suppressed.


Divination doesn't work against Elder Evils.


I'm using transparency.

And note that this is just one fight. Another one takes place on a moon that deals constant negative energy damage and throws out negative levels like candy. You need to pick up immunity to that if you want to last.

Perfect flight without wings is generally supernatural, just light flight with wings is generally extraordinary. There's no need to specify which one either of those would be, both are obvious. Only the exceptions need to be specifically called out.

Knowledge checks with Moment of Prescience and similar spell buffs are often just as good as divinations for determining a legendary foe's capabilities and weaknesses.

As I said, I haven't given more than a glance to any of those opponents, but given some research and preparation the character I presented is definitely capable of soloing anything in that book.

[Rubik]

You can do so but it would have to be pretty awesome to make up for the negative points from using Illithid Savant.I think I could do it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Eh, using the A&EG rules for putting armor enhancements on Bracers of Armor, immunity to negative stuff is only 25k gp in the form of +1 Soulfire Bracers of Armor.

I know, but he didn't include them in his character. :smallwink:


Perfect flight without wings is generally supernatural, just light flight with wings is generally extraordinary.
That is irrelevant, the rules don't call it out.

There's no need to specify which one either of those would be, both are obvious. Only the exceptions need to be specifically called out.
That would be a house rule.


Knowledge checks with Moment of Prescience and similar spell buffs are often just as good as divinations for determining a legendary foe's capabilities and weaknesses.
To even know it's name is a DC 28 check. DC 60 or so is where you would be getting actual information about capabilities, generally.


As I said, I haven't given more than a glance to any of those opponents, but given some research and preparation the character I presented is definitely capable of soloing anything in that book.
And what did I say? The build could probably do it; with its current spell selection, item selection, and tactics however it would not win.

[Rubik]

Gauntlets are listed as unarmed strikes in the weapons section of the PHB. Would that mean I could flurry with some?

[Emperor Tippy]

Gauntlets are listed as unarmed strikes in the weapons section of the PHB. Would that mean I could flurry with some?

Yes, you can.

[Rubik]

Yes, you can.And they'd use the monk's base damage?

[Emperor Tippy]

And they'd use the monk's base damage?

Yes, as they are unarmed strikes for all purposes except lethal vs. nonlethal damage.

[Rubik]

Yes, as they are unarmed strikes for all purposes except lethal vs. nonlethal damage.Exxxcellent...

[Zerter]

Most of these builds seem really lacking to me. This is an optimization challenge, not a powergaming challenge. The second means you take the limitations given by Tippy and work around them to make the most powerful character possible (what most people seem to do). The first means you try to define what Tippy's spirit is and work in that spirit to create the most efficient character possible. Both try to create strong characters, but there's a significant difference. I am not participating tho and I do compliment anyone that does for their effort.

[Emperor Tippy]

Most of these builds seem really lacking to me. This is an optimization challenge, not a powergaming challenge. The second means you take the limitations given by Tippy and work around them to make the most powerful character possible (what most people seem to do). The first means you try to define what Tippy's spirit is and work in that spirit to create the most efficient character possible. Both try to create strong characters, but there's a significant difference. I am not participating tho and I do compliment anyone that does for their effort.

Yep. If I really wanted casters able to do this then I would have asked for casters able to do this.

[Rubik]

Yep. If I really wanted casters able to do this then I would have asked for casters able to do this.To be fair, I'd primarily use my manifesting for defensive purposes, such as surviving all those negative levels you mentioned. It'd save on buying items for that purpose, at the very least.

[Emperor Tippy]

To be fair, I'd primarily use my manifesting for defensive purposes, such as surviving all those negative levels you mentioned. It'd save on buying items for that purpose, at the very least.

Which is fine.

[iDesu]

My build is hopefully done. It's not very monk-like, in essence it's just an ubercharger with monk levels.

Vandal Savage: Whirl-pounce barbarian 1 / martial raging (Both Dragon 310) monk 17

Human Gheden (half-undead, dragon 313 page 63), Earth subtype (Savage Species page 148), Fire subtype (Sand Storm page 118)

Speed: 80ft ground, 160ft flight

Feats:
1: Toughness
H: Troll Blooded (Dragon 319)
F: Power Attack - vulnerable
F: Wedded to History (Dragon 354, UMD to skill list, doesn't age) - inattentive
M1: Weapon Supremacy (Greatsword)
M2: Melee Weapon Mastery (Greatsword)
3: Skill focus (Basket weaving)
6: Leap attack
M6: Shock Trooper
9: Snap Kick
12: Improved Initiative
15: Superior Unarmed Strike
18: Improved Natural Attack

33 STR: 18 +4 levels +5 inherent +6 enhancement
19 DEX: 14 +5 inherent
27 CON: 16 +5 inherent +6 enhancement
13 INT: 8 +5 inherent
13 WIS: 8 +5 inherent
13 CHA: 8 +5 inherent

Skills: Jump, UMD, Basket Weaving

Items:
+1 warning braid blade (Dungeon 120) - 8,310 gp
+1 morphing, valorous, changing, ghost touch, illuminating, spellblade (Greater dispel), scorpion kama (Total +6 bonus +12,500) - 84,802 gp
Wand chamber of wraith strike - 4,650 GP
Feathered wings graft (Fiend Folio) 10,000 GP
Ring of Mental Fortitude - 110,000 GP
Hathran mask of true seeing - 75,000 gp
+1 soulfire Bracers of Armor - 25,000 GP
Ring of Freedom of Movement - 40,000 gp
Belt of Battle and Giants strength +6 -48,000 gp
Sandals of the Vagabond - 4,000 gp
Amulet of Health +6 - 36,000
Earth subtype - 36,000 GP
Fire subtype - 8,000 GP (Scroll of "Mantle of the Fiery Spirit")


Total cost of 489,762

UMD a scroll of Guidance of the Avatar for a bonus to UMD, then use a scroll of shape change to become a Zodar. Switch back and forth between Zodar form to cast wish multiple times for the inherent bonuses; the items too if you want to get those earlier, but I still took the price of those. After all that is done get a CL n scroll of Greater mighty wallop, and the psionic equivalent of Adapt Body; lilitu form should take care of the UMD checks.

Init: 17 = +4 dex, +4 improved init, +5 warning, +2 belt of battle, +2 sandals of the vagabond

Full attack with rage: 13 BAB + 1 weapon + 14 STR -2 snap kick -2 whirling frenzy +2 charge
+26/+26/+26/21/21
((12d8 + 57) x4)x2 + (12d8 + 33) average damage = (444 x2) + 87 = 975

It looks like as long as I win initiative I should be able to kill everything in the first round of combat through charging. It's not really monk like, but at least it's smacking them in the face. I may have overlooked some things, but I didn't notice anything lethal. I don't care much for the build, though.

[ben-zayb]

Hmm haven't seen Elder Evils in a while, but from what I remember, don't their initiatives suck? Once you get items that ward from status effects and negative levels, win initiative and overwhelm them with damage won't it be over? Or are we taking into account the difficulty of getting to their location safely? Can't we just Wish teleport straight to them?

[Spuddles]

Hmm haven't seen Elder Evils in a while, but from what I remember, don't their initiatives suck? Once you get items that ward from status effects and negative levels, win initiative and overwhelm them with damage won't it be over? Or are we taking into account the difficulty of getting to their location safely? Can't we just Wish teleport straight to them?

Now do it with 17 levels of monk, no UMD, and no spellcasting/manifesting.

[shaikujin]

Ooooo, I'm very interested in doing an optimized monk too!

From what Tippy said, it looks like you have already created a monk with 17 monk levels that can do this.

Tippy, I've been trying forever to see how well I can optimize around the rope dart from Dragon 319. As a gauge, can you let me know which of the below will gain me points for originality/sticking to being a monk or lose points, or outright considered too cheesy even for you?

1) Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (requires UMD)
2) Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop (CL 12, 2 charges a day)
3) Stacking Monk's Belt, Gauntlets of the Talon, Monk's Tattoo
4) Psionic Lion's charge as an instant effect (ie permanent)
5) Mighty Arms Warforged graft with Battlefist
6) Scorpion Kama with morphing
7) Reverse engineer the costs of the effects from the Scorpion Kama, and applying it directly to another weapon without needing to use morphing
8) Actually having any spell casting/powers
9) Having sufficient spell casting solely for the purpose of buffs
10) Having full spell casting
11) Gaining SLAs that replicate certain spells via race/template instead of having spellcasting (not phaerimm type, but more like Primordial Giant granting Greater Invis)
12) Abusing Savage Species LA rules for getting an arbitrary large number of feats using only 1 LA
13) Abusing Savage Species LA rules for getting an arbitrary large regeneration value using only 2 LA
14) Use of the Symbiote template
15) Abusing the Symbiote template to get point 11 and 12 for only 1 LA...
16) Abusing the Symbiote template for template stacking (lycanthrope dire tortoise for example)
17) Gestalt as a means of mitigating RHD, LA, Bloodlines
18) Gestalt with the interpretation that Monk 20 // Barbarian 1/Rogue 19 gives 20 BAB
19) Using a plane with timelessness trait (as pertains to magic) to persist spells
20) Driving a fully armed battleship oriented stronghold will lose points for being cheesy and not showcasing a monk's features, correct?

[ben-zayb]

Now do it with 17 levels of monk, no UMD, and no spellcasting/manifesting.

Oh. Monk.:smallsigh:
Well how can he get there in the first place if he can't UMD or spellcasting?
I am not good with char ops like these but in case the idea works, feel free to build on it or use parts of it. XD

I was just thinking of buffing initiative using items. Scroll Planar Binding a Nightmare or Bullette (inspired by the E6 Balor challenge) to get Etherealness/Burrow Speed. With Ring of XRay Vision he could sneak from below ground where senses won't detect him.

Those many items that grant move action maybe in case it can't be done on a surprise round? Then good old full-flurry during the actual round. Flurry + TWF Line + Rapid Shot.

As for damage and to-hit, probably 2 Master Thrower for Palm and Weak Throw for multiple shuriken and targetting touch AC. Then a Swordsage dip for Assassin's Stance to get Craven and Shadow Blade

Item enhancement and abilities to further increase damage and to-hit and bypassing DR (i.e. Collision, Aptitude, Ghost Strike, etc.)

For chassis, maybe Shapechange or True Mind Switch Scroll on a Gloom? That also grants Sneak die.

[thethird]

I would like to give this a try :smallsmile:

Just before I build something, Dragon Magazine ACFs are kosher, aren't they? Legacy champion and uncanny trickster are nice as long as they advance monk levels? Could I go with the reading of bloodlines here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) of not actually taking xp? It is not spelled anywhere that they actually cost XP.

Are custom legacy items available, based on the guidelines described in items of legacy? Item familiars are also available aren't they?

At the moment I am thinking of building a dragonborn warforged monk 7 / Uncanny trickster 3 / Legacy champion 10 (it only has 3 levels at which it doesn't advance monk, and doesn't have spellcasting) and if bloodlines are cheesed enough I would add those for moar monk levels. Also, do we have to build a character with 190.000 experience (the bottom of level 20).

[killem2]

I am not much for these contests, but you can obtain immunity to mind effects (might save a few bucks of the wealth by level) with a Dungeonbred Z'tal (Dark Sun 3.5), turned Anthropomorphic, and it would be a small monstrous humanoid, though since SS never addressed level adjustments, it would be hard to determine.

Either way, even at la +1, it would have been bought off. :smallredface: Not to mention it would have a nice scream ability that scales with Constitution.

Throw in the saint template to become an outsider, and make a zen archery monk, and pump that hide skill if possible, and try and snipe away :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

The rules already stated that LA buyoff was not allowed. And the straightforward way to get immunity to mind effecting is with a Third Eye: Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal), though at 120k gold, it's a bit pricy.

[killem2]

The rules already stated that LA buyoff was not allowed. And the straightforward way to get immunity to mind effecting is with a Third Eye: Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal), though at 120k gold, it's a bit pricy.

Well, then its up to tippy to decide if such a race would have LA and if so how much.

Because getting a nice +4 wisdom and +6 charisma, along with I think (have to check stats), +8 or +7 dex, along with +'s to str and con, in addition to a fear/deafening effect and immunity, under RAW ain't bad.

You will look like a freak but hey, who cares :P.

I'm aware of the items to make you immune, I figured if you can save that money upfront, you might be able to use that 120k for something else ):smallsmile:

[Xervous]

instead of mixing high Wisdom with the Saint template, you can pick up two levels of paladin and take Serenity (dragon 306) to use wisdom for divine grace instead of cha.

monk 17 gets you +10 base saves. 2 Paladin gets you +3 fort
Low end wisdom is 18+5(levelup)+5(tomes)+6(enhancement) = 34 (+12), tack on +6 if you're going anthropomorphic bat (+15). low end Dex is 18+4(tomes)+6(enhancement) = 28 (+9)
Now, if necropolitan may be treated as an LA+1 template...

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Fort save: you don't care. Pick up a spellblade enchantment keyed to disintegrate perhaps.
Reflex: 10 + 9 (dex) + 12 (wis) + 5 resistance (vest of resistance) + 2 (prayerful meditation) +1 luck (catseye brooch) +1 insight (parrying) = +40
Will: 10 + 12 + 12 (double wis) + 5 resistance + 2 + 1 + 1 = +43

~Atropus's meteor shower is DC 53 reflex, but is a suicidal move and unlikely to be used, the rest is covered by undead immunities.
~Father llymic's DCs are 30 will.
~Hulk's highest DCs are 31 Ref, 22 will.
~Aspect of the Leviathan is a joke
~pandorym's highest DC is 31 if you are immune to mind affecting and are not a manifester
~Ragnorra's highest DCs are 47 ref (trample) 36 ref (corrupt positive energy ray: may not affect/only partially affect undead due to wording). However, you are going to want to boost your turn resistance up to 25 (from its current 19) so her silly aura doesn't make you run away. *Additionally, she will ignore divine bonuses*.
~Aspect of Sertrous' abilities are all blocked by common immunities.
~Worm That Walks' highest DC is 33 ref, there's some will save targeting spells but all non-mind affecting ones are below DC 30.
~Zargon's highest DC is 30 ref, immunities cover the rest.

Therefore, the saves we need are as follows
Reflex +51 for atropus, +45* for ragnorra's trample, +34* for her corrupt energy ray.
Will +29 for Pandorym


With a bit more work, I'm sure its possible to obtain similar values for saves without using spells and Divine grace / Serenity. If this is accomplished and permits three levels for necropolitan and Saint, we can add a ludicrous touch AC to the mix. Our target here is 71 touch AC to beat Pandorym's ranged touch (+52) attack on 19's.


With 17 monk, 2 saint, 1 necropolitan: using anthropomorphic bat, wis now 42 (+16)
AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+3 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending weapon
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 fight defensively with tumble synergy
+1 dusty rose Ioun stone
= 71 AC and Touch AC

Will save: +10 + 16 wis + 5 vest +2 ACF = 33. Done here
Ref save: + 10 + 9 dex + 5 vest + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 Luckstone + 2 ACF = 28 for now... will add more later. Dive For Cover (feat) will get you a second roll but drop you prone, however a DC 40 tumble check to stand up as a free action is a pittance to make .

[Man on Fire]

Okay, let us go with good old simple Ultimate Monk.

Monk 6
Drunken Master 2 (Complete Warrior)
Psionic Fist 10
Warshaper 2 (Complete Warrior)

Get Metamorphosis through Expanded Knowledge feat.
I think that will do it.

[Rubik]

Okay, let us go with good old simple Ultimate Monk.

Monk 6
Drunken Master 2 (Complete Warrior)
Psionic Fist 10
Warshaper 2 (Complete Warrior)

Get Metamorphosis through Expanded Knowledge feat.
I think that will do it.Might as well go wild shape monk, as well, so you can still use those warshaper levels after you run out of power points.

Also, you may want to update your sig. "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

It'd be fitting. :smallcool:

[Man on Fire]

Might as well go wild shape monk, as well, so you can still use those warshaper levels after you run out of power points.

Also, you may want to update your sig. "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

It'd be fitting. :smallcool:

I'll think about it :smallwink:

What source is Wildshape Monk, by the way? I might wnan to check that.

[Rubik]

I'll think about it :smallwink:

What source is Wildshape Monk, by the way? I might wnan to check that.Dragon 324. Here's an overview if you want to glance at it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6897.0)

[Spuddles]

instead of mixing high Wisdom with the Saint template, you can pick up two levels of paladin and take Serenity (dragon 306) to use wisdom for divine grace instead of cha.

monk 17 gets you +10 base saves. 2 Paladin gets you +3 fort
Low end wisdom is 18+5(levelup)+5(tomes)+6(enhancement) = 34 (+12), tack on +6 if you're going anthropomorphic bat (+15). low end Dex is 18+4(tomes)+6(enhancement) = 28 (+9)
Now, if necropolitan may be treated as an LA+1 template...

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Fort save: you don't care. Pick up a spellblade enchantment keyed to disintegrate perhaps.
Reflex: 10 + 9 (dex) + 12 (wis) + 5 resistance (vest of resistance) + 2 (prayerful meditation) +1 luck (catseye brooch) +1 insight (parrying) = +40
Will: 10 + 12 + 12 (double wis) + 5 resistance + 2 + 1 + 1 = +43

~Atropus's meteor shower is DC 53 reflex, but is a suicidal move and unlikely to be used, the rest is covered by undead immunities.
~Father llymic's DCs are 30 will.
~Hulk's highest DCs are 31 Ref, 22 will.
~Aspect of the Leviathan is a joke
~pandorym's highest DC is 31 if you are immune to mind affecting and are not a manifester
~Ragnorra's highest DCs are 47 ref (trample) 36 ref (corrupt positive energy ray: may not affect/only partially affect undead due to wording). However, you are going to want to boost your turn resistance up to 25 (from its current 19) so her silly aura doesn't make you run away. *Additionally, she will ignore divine bonuses*.
~Aspect of Sertrous' abilities are all blocked by common immunities.
~Worm That Walks' highest DC is 33 ref, there's some will save targeting spells but all non-mind affecting ones are below DC 30.
~Zargon's highest DC is 30 ref, immunities cover the rest.

Therefore, the saves we need are as follows
Reflex +51 for atropus, +45* for ragnorra's trample, +34* for her corrupt energy ray.
Will +29 for Pandorym


With a bit more work, I'm sure its possible to obtain similar values for saves without using spells and Divine grace / Serenity. If this is accomplished and permits three levels for necropolitan and Saint, we can add a ludicrous touch AC to the mix. Our target here is 71 touch AC to beat Pandorym's raged touch (+52) attack on 19's.


With 17 monk, 2 saint, 1 necropolitan: using anthropomorphic bat, wis now 42 (+16)
AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+3 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending weapon
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 fight defensively with tumble synergy
+1 dusty rose Ioun stone
= 71 AC and Touch AC

Will save: +10 + 16 wis + 5 vest = 31. Done here
Ref save: + 10 + 9 dex + 5 vest + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 Luckstone = 26 for now... will add more later. Dive For Cover (feat) will get you a second roll but drop you prone, however a DC 40 tumble check to stand up as a free action is a pittance to make .

A couple nitpicks:
Necropolitan can't be applied to monstrous humanoids.
Necropolitan doesn't need to be treated as LA buy off. It costs a level and 1000xp. If you apply it at 3rd, then you just subtract 2500 xp from your total. Since tippy gave us 20k extra to work with, you get to stay level 20.

[Xervous]

I'm staring at Libris Mortis and it says “Necropolitan” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

[Spuddles]

I'm staring at Libris Mortis and it says “Necropolitan” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Ah, I was under the mistaken impression that it was humanoid only.

[Aegis013]

Despite the prize being something I'd very much like, I'm afraid my ability to optimize monk and the limited time I've bothered looking into them lends itself poorly to this challenge. Sadness.

[Vaz]

Elan Monkish Levels 17 to flavour, Ardent 3, with Practised Manifester and Metamorphic Trasfer, taking Metamorphosis as it's 3rd power.

Find yourself some ultra-advanced creature with racial spellcasting; Phaerimm, or Dragons, and ensure that they're helpless (through Gate, or whatever, or whatever means necessary; order them to go to sleep for example). Metamorphose into a Tsochar, and use their poorly determined normally DM only ability to Polymorph into that being.

You are now a 20th level Monk with 3/4 or 1/1 Casting as the HD of the creature you're now inhabiting.

[Man on Fire]

Dragon 324. Here's an overview if you want to glance at it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6897.0)

Wow, this guy looks strong. gotta try him one day.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I have an idea but does getting a consumable that pushes me over wbl and then using it asap break the rules? Because if so I need to make sure I have a bit of wiggle room in my money to squeeze in the consumables.

[ko_sct]

You can get it all at level 20 if you want. You just aren't allowed more than 760,000 GP worth of items on your sheet at any point in time.

Can we get the contrary if we want ? Assume we just inherited the 760,000 GP at level 1 ? Cause if we can, I MAY have a funny build, if I got the time...

[Xervous]

Can we add enchantments to Hank's energy bow? Splitting is calling to me.

[killem2]

is there anything to make any particular weapon eligible for flurry?

[Seer_of_Heart]

is there anything to make any particular weapon eligible for flurry?

Pretty sure that the Shou Disciple PRC lets you flurry with any weapon.

Is transparency applied so that dispel magic also dispels psionic effects?

[Xervous]

Nevermind this

[GeekGirl]

Would something like this (http://dndtools.eu/classes/argent-fist/) be considered "monk like" It doesn't grant monk level but has the right feel.

[Chronos]

I think adaptive only makes it count as other weapons with respect to feats, not class features.

There are, however, monk variants with a different set of monk weapons, and feats to make a few specific weapons monk weapons. What did you have in mind?

[Draz74]

is there anything to make any particular weapon eligible for flurry?

Yeah, the Aptitude enchantment + any feat that turns a specific weapon into a Monk weapon should work. (There's at least one such feat in Secrets of Sarlona.)

[XionUnborn01]

is there anything to make any particular weapon eligible for flurry?

Dragon Compendium has the Unorthodox Flurry feat, pick a light weapon and you gain proficiency and can flurry with it. Don't remember the prereqs

[killem2]

I think adaptive only makes it count as other weapons with respect to feats, not class features.

There are, however, monk variants with a different set of monk weapons, and feats to make a few specific weapons monk weapons. What did you have in mind?

Crescent Knives

Dragon Magazine 275

This weapon, which resembles a crescent shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows it wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

Exotic 1d3 20/x2 1lb Slashing


Sure, its not called flurry of misses for nothing but if you can get that base attack up, and enchant them with some nasty abilities, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249145) just from sheer probability, you should land a lot of hits.

[Vamphyr]

Now, I'm not much of an optimizer, but I would probably start out with the bone creature template from BoVD. It gives you undead traits which make you immune to mind affecting abilities, ability drain, death effects, and negative energy heals you for only +1 LA.

[ganresorc]

A single Dispel could also rip off all of your defenses and thanks to the AMF being aimed to exclude your square it offers no protection at all.


A "Rules of the Game" article by Skip Williams disagrees with this. It seems to indicate that the AMF does break line of effect, and thus the AMF would have to be dispelled before targeting the monk.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a

[JaronK]

Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

Also, the Shou Disciple PrC is a Monk PrC that advances all the fun Monk stuff... and in 5 levels lets you flurry with any martial weapon, IIRC. It's also got full BAB.

JaronK

[Spuddles]

Crescent Knives

Dragon Magazine 275

This weapon, which resembles a crescent shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows it wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.

Exotic 1d3 20/x2 1lb Slashing


Sure, its not called flurry of misses for nothing but if you can get that base attack up, and enchant them with some nasty abilities, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249145) just from sheer probability, you should land a lot of hits.

You can get 50+ str relatively easily, and for virtually no LA (18 base, 5 tome, 5 levels, 6 item, 12 half minotaur, 4 half ogre). That all costs you +1 LA.

The problem, though, isn' hitting, but not getting hit. And making your saves. The highest AC is only around 43, I think, but the highest to hit is over 50. Likewise, the saves for many Su abilities are around 50, due to elder evil having a ton of HD. Luckily, you can avoid many of those with type based immunity. Undead gives you immunity to anything that allows a fort save and doesnt affect objects, which happens to be just abou every fort save targeting Su.

The spells and Sp should be trivial for an all good saves character to make, as those only go as high as DC30ish.


Now, I'm not much of an optimizer, but I would probably start out with the bone creature template from BoVD. It gives you undead traits which make you immune to mind affecting abilities, ability drain, death effects, and negative energy heals you for only +1 LA.

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis is better because it only costs xp, which for thos challenge, we have extra of.


Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

Also, the Shou Disciple PrC is a Monk PrC that advances all the fun Monk stuff... and in 5 levels lets you flurry with any martial weapon, IIRC. It's also got full BAB.

JaronK

Those grafts would still count against your WBL, if they have a price associated with them.

One hole I see in breaking WBL is wish abuse or something to get artifacts, as they dont have a listed price and therefore wont count against wbl.

[Man on Fire]

Would something like this (http://dndtools.eu/classes/argent-fist/) be considered "monk like" It doesn't grant monk level but has the right feel.

Arget Fist gives you ascetic knight, so it means not only it advances some of your class features, it makes your previously taken paladin levels advance them as well. Dunno what Tippy says, but for me it shoudl count.

[Piggy Knowles]

What about Action Points? If I've got an ability that requires an action point to use, can I use it? What if I have access to a prestige class or spell that grants me more action points?

[Zombulian]

Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

Also, the Shou Disciple PrC is a Monk PrC that advances all the fun Monk stuff... and in 5 levels lets you flurry with any martial weapon, IIRC. It's also got full BAB.

JaronK

Ah yea I was gonna recommend Shou Disc *shakes fist*

I wish I could somehow partake in this trial, but with finals coming up and the fact that my optimizing muscles aren't nearly developed enough to possibly be able to pull this off without dumb cheese, I think I'll just act as an advisor. Good luck folks.

[Piggy Knowles]

Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

Ha, I have sacrifices built into one of my two builds for this.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

God darn it, I'm going to have to make a build that utilizes this :smallamused:.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, I'll come on later and edit in items, ability scores and the full list of powers, but since I've already revealed a few elements of my favorite of the two builds, I thought I'd go ahead and post what I've got so far:

Vecna-blooded Necropolitan Elf, Monk 7/Psionic Fist 10/Assassin 1/Psychic Rogue 1

(EDIT: Just remembered that, hey, favored class penalties are a thing that exists. If they're being enforced, replace PsyRogue with anything that grants SA - its bonus power is unnecessary. Unseen Seer works beautifully.)

FEATS (post-DCFS):

Darkstalker
Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak)
Azure Talent
Wild Talent
Improved Essentia Capacity
Midnight Augmentation
Psycarnum Infusion
Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)
Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Minor Creation)
Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
Expanded Knowledge (Bestow Power)
Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)
Metamorphic Transfer
Practiced Manifester
Overchannel
Metapower
Linked Power
Psicrystal Affinity
Psicrystal Containment
Psionic Meditation
Twin Power
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment - Magic)
Maiming Strike


Feat sources:

5 feats for dedication to an elder evil (5)
6 MWP feats for being an elf (11)
2 feats from Psionic Fist (13)
7 feats from level-ups (20)
4 bonus feats from monk levels (24)
2 flaws (26)


Note that with Feat Leech + DCFS shenanigans you can actually get WAY more feats, but I worried that would rate too high on the cheese scale, and anyhow it's unnecessary.

I'll edit in the full item list when I'm home and have MIC in front of me, but twelve +1 valorous mouthpick weapons and twelve of the weapon crystals that let you sneak undead would be nice.

For some important notes:

Unbeatable stealth thanks to the combination of Vecna-blooded, Darkstalker and Phase Cloak. Yes, even Touchsight is foiled. I'll post the actual numbers with items when I get home, but it's irrelevantly high - the only one to have even a chance of detecting him is Atropus with that +76 listen check, and that's pretty easy to circumvent. Etherealness at will via Phase Cloak allows him to bypass issues with Touchsight.
Able to deal more than 52 points of Charisma damage in a single round via Maiming Strike. Undead are NOT immune to this, as they are only immune to PHYSICAL ability damage, so if I can successfully sneak attack them (which I can), I can still shatter their Charisma with no save. As the highest Charisma for any Elder Evil is 37, this means that even with some natural 1s on attack rolls, I should have no problem succeeding.
Multiple move actions per round via twinned, linked Hustles.
Those move actions come in handy - Psycarnum Infusion, Midnight Augmentation and Azure Talent mean that I am constantly refilling myself with temp PP and augmenting powers for free. Fun stuff.
Oh, and just in case that's not enough, Bestow Power + Midnight Augmentation means I can completely refill my PP pool when necessary.
Access to most relevant magic items thanks to Magic domain.
Metamorphosis + Metamorphic Transfer. His main attack form is the simple twelve-headed hydra, cut down to a more stealthy size via Compression, for its easy twelve attacks. However, there's a ton of utility to be had with this one.
Pre-DCFS, functions as a pretty decent stealthy Darkstalker monk with PsyWar powers to boost damage. EK (Psychic Reformation), to be DCFS'd out for the final build, means that he can choose powers better suited to leveling up normally, then pick the optimal power layout just before he goes Elder Evil hunting.
Versatile Spellcaster is another necessary pre-DCFS feat, to qualify for Vecna-blooded.
Dedicated to one of the OTHER Elder Evils, in Lords of Madness. Because they obviously want to see these Elder Evils slain, right?
When the Elder Evil is paralyzed from major Charisma damage, he sacrifices them via BoVD rules (should get HUGE bonuses on the check for sacrificing a friggin' Elder Evil, but it's unnecessary since he can hit the DC 35 without error regardless), to summon and command an Efreet, using those wishes to get him to the next Elder Evil, teleport him to relevant volcanos, etc.
Martial Study (White Raven Tactics) on the psicrystal, in case one attack round isn't enough. (NOTE: One attack round should be enough.)

[Seer_of_Heart]

5 feats for dedication to an elder evil (5)
6 MWP feats for being an elf (11)
2 feats from Psionic Fist (13)
7 feats from level-ups (20)
4 bonus feats from monk levels (24)
2 flaws (26)


Excellent build but am I the only one who finds this build ironic for the section I quoted?

[Xervous]

As per page 6 of the Elder Evils book,

Immunities (Ex): Elder evils have immunity to polymorphing, petrification, and any other spell or ability that alters their form. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage. They are immune to
mind-affecting spells and abilities. Most elder evils have immunity to a specific energy type, depending on their nature.

[Emperor Tippy]

Elves only get 4 feats to Shuffle, not six. They don't get separate feats for the composite bows.

[Piggy Knowles]

As per page 6 of the Elder Evils book, (snipped quote re: immunity to ability damage)

Gah, OK. Missed that one. I can easily reset to just overwhelm with damage, although that means I'll have to sacrifice a mook rather than the Elder Evil itself for the Efreet summoning. Loses out on some cool points, but it's still doable. On the plus side, I can save a ton of money on mouthpick weapons, since weapon crystals for sneak attack on Atropus is no longer necessary.

I'll revise with a damage focus later tonight, but I'm confident that I can one-shot any of the Elder Evils with more or less this same build.


Elves only get 4 feats to Shuffle, not six. They don't get separate feats for the composite bows.

Easy enough to fix. Not all of those feats are necessary (even less so now that I'll be dropping Maiming Strike). I'll revise the build tonight with the correct number of feats.

[JaronK]

Those grafts would still count against your WBL, if they have a price associated with them.

You could always open the trial by sacrificing someone right at the beginning, since the demon does it willingly and can get it done in three rounds.

But obviously this is one of those nastily overpowered tricks.

JaronK

[Spuddles]

It looks like Wishing for Artifacts is within RAW and doesn't seem like a RAW reason to pervert the Wish, just like Wishing for a +9000 flaming sword is legal if you find a way around the xp cost.

Any artifacts worth having? The core ones are pretty lame. It would be pretty lolsy to kill an elder evil with a sphere of annihilation or a game of cards from the deck of many things, but neither of those are particularly monk-y.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh yeah, people should remember the environments that you have to fight the Elder Evils in. Leviathan is entirely under water, Ragnorra gets to throw Heals that deal 225 damage to Undead from a thousand feet away, Pandorym shuts down all Conjuration within the area, Atropus is a negative energy death moon, Father Llymic is a giant snow covered mountain that tries to freeze you, etc.

[Xervous]

Assumption: Spellstitched is a no-go because it lacks an LA? I'm only looking at it as a final source of turn resistance to deal with that pesky Ragnorra. I believe I have just about everything else locked down as immune or nearly so.

Not so surprisingly, the biggest threat of death is still HP damage from attacks.

[Emperor Tippy]

Assumption: Spellstitched is a no-go because it lacks an LA?

Yep, if it has LA - then you don't get it.

[Xervous]

1. Do the undead creation enhancers work on Necropolitans as per this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147848)

2. If so, what would be the price of hiring the appropriate Dread Necromancer to remake you?


EDIT: I'm confused on Ragnorra's turning. It says that "all undead creatures ... are automatically affected by a turn undead attempt (CL 20th)"

what does this entail with Ragnorra's obvious lack of cleric levels?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Has anyone else thought about just how utterly screwed the world that has all of the elder evils active at the same time really is?

Plagues of undead, an unnatural fecundity to all life that causes people to mutate into abberations, -strange- weather, snakes and worms everywhere, people going berserk all over the place, the sun going dark while icy monsters roam free looking for people to "convert," divine casters and conjurers all finding themselves cut-off from the planes they draw their power from, and two large-ish celestial objects on a collision course. Makes Athas (the world of Dark Sun) look like an amusement park, don't it. :smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

1. Do the undead creation enhancers work on Necropolitans as per this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147848)
No.


EDIT: I'm confused on Ragnorra's turning. It says that "all undead creatures ... are automatically affected by a turn undead attempt (CL 20th)"

what does this entail with Ragnorra's obvious lack of cleric levels?

Ragnorra turns as if she had 20 cleric levels in that example.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Do enlarge person and expansion stack?

[Spuddles]

Do enlarge person and expansion stack?

Not even a little bit.

[Threadnaught]

Has anyone else thought about just how utterly screwed the world that has all of the elder evils active at the same time really is?

Plagues of undead, an unnatural fecundity to all life that causes people to mutate into abberations, -strange- weather, snakes and worms everywhere, people going berserk all over the place, the sun going dark while icy monsters roam free looking for people to "convert," divine casters and conjurers all finding themselves cut-off from the planes they draw their power from, and two large-ish celestial objects on a collision course. Makes Athas (the world of Dark Sun) look like an amusement park, don't it. :smallamused:

Sounds like the Tippyverse during the CoWC. :smallamused:

[Zombulian]

Has anyone else thought about just how utterly screwed the world that has all of the elder evils active at the same time really is?

Plagues of undead, an unnatural fecundity to all life that causes people to mutate into abberations, -strange- weather, snakes and worms everywhere, people going berserk all over the place, the sun going dark while icy monsters roam free looking for people to "convert," divine casters and conjurers all finding themselves cut-off from the planes they draw their power from, and two large-ish celestial objects on a collision course. Makes Athas (the world of Dark Sun) look like an amusement park, don't it. :smallamused:

That's... That's so awful I've never even considered it.

[Xervous]

Am I allowed to put additional enhancements on Hank's energy bow and am I correct in treating it as an effective +3 at its base?

[iDesu]

That's... That's so awful I've never even considered it.

Really? It kind of sounds like E3 to me.

[Emperor Tippy]

Am I allowed to put additional enhancements on Hank's energy bow and am I correct in treating it as an effective +3 at its base?

Yes to both.

[Zombulian]

Really? It kind of sounds like E3 to me.

Heh. Never been :smalltongue:

[Seer_of_Heart]

Do we get as much downtime as we want between fights or do we have to teleport out and onto the next elder evil as soon as we win the fight.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do we get as much downtime as we want between fights or do we have to teleport out and onto the next elder evil as soon as we win the fight.

You get some but not alot. Figure a week or two.

[Piggy Knowles]

How does the bonus damage on Psionic Lion's Charge work?

As worded, each additional power point spent gives a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the total number of additional PP spent, so that augmenting it by 5 PP would mean a total of +25 points of damage. Most groups I've played with assume that this is a mistake that errata never caught, and instead rule that PLC gives a one-to-one bonus for each point you augment by, but the spell as written implies otherwise. Do I go by RAW, or the more sane approach?



Augment
For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

[Emperor Tippy]

How does the bonus damage on Psionic Lion's Charge work?

As worded, each additional power point spent gives a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the total number of additional PP spent, so that augmenting it by 5 PP would mean a total of +25 points of damage. Most groups I've played with assume that this is a mistake that errata never caught, and instead rule that PLC gives a one-to-one bonus for each point you augment by, but the spell as written implies otherwise. Do I go by RAW, or the more sane approach?

RAW is hazy but I'm ruling that a 5 PP augment would give you +5 to damage, not +25.

[Aegis013]

I need to figure out what all magic items it would need, but this fits the bill of monk-i-ness for the most part. Although I do have to use some UMD, sadly.


the build is

Warforged
Chicken Infested(Dragon Mag issue #330) Commoner 1/Factotum 1/Monk 17/Warblade 1

Only feats I have decided on are
Martial Study: Any Tiger Claw Maneuver
Item Familiar, with this we end up with
UMD 37-1 Cha (for a 37 on a 1, allowing us to use the scroll with 100% success)
and enough knowledge religion/dungeoneering/planes to know the names of all of the elder evils, with using Collector of Stories.

Starting stats are 8, 8, 18, 18, 8, 8. Eventually with +5 inherent from Zodar wishes. We need those skill points.
Items we buy to kill stuff with are a scroll of shapechange CL 17, because we're going to become a Zodar in order to close the distance between us and the enemy using Wish SLA.

Quite a lot of Belts of Battle, we need them to actually score a killing blow after we Wish ourselves into melee with the foes.

A Spiked Chain for the hulks, we don't want to let them have a turn, we're going to use Mithral Tornado to wipe them all out with a single swing. To achieve the necessary reach we'll use Shapechange to assume the form of a Storm Giant or other 15ft reach creature, since 30ft is just enough reach to catch them all in the attack if you're in right square.

So the basic idea is just to use Blood in the Water from Warblade to score critical hits on chickens until you have sufficiently arbitrarily high to-hit and damage. Then you use Shapechange to get Zodar power, Wish into melee with each of them one by one, hitting them with a second round of actions via Belt of Battles to land +arbitrary to hit and damage attacks against them. Slaying them, or following up the punch with whatever is necessary afterwards to complete their demise.

Some magic items like Hathran mask of true seeing will be necessary to by-pass miss chance and other defenses.

Of course, numerous other magic items will need to be bought and swapped around between warping into kill them in order to protect you from environmental hazards such as negative energy and the void of space. I'm not going to cover these individually because it'd be long and boring.


So you suddenly appear, punch them in the face for instant death, and go to punch the next one in the face for instant death. (or the least monky one where you whirlwind attack with a spike chain 5 of them to death simultaneously)

It's not really playing on the monk's features, and the monk stuff is pretty much entirely superfluous, which is unfortunate, but as Tippy stated in the beginning, it's one of the weakest classes there are.

You can't say I never tried.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I wish knew statistics :smallfrown:, I have a build that by can take out all the elder evils at least from what I can tell by skimming but I'm not 100% on how likely it is to succeed(because enough natural ones can screw me up).

[Emperor Tippy]

I wish knew statistics :smallfrown:, I have a build that by can take out all the elder evils at least from what I can tell by skimming but I'm not 100% on how likely it is to succeed(because enough natural ones can screw me up).

Feel free to post, it doesn't need to be guaranteed.

[Xervous]

what is your ruling on learning maneuvers as a multiclass martial adept.

i.e. does taking your first level of swordsage at 9 allow you to pick up 3rd level maneuvers since you have an initiator level of 5?

[Emperor Tippy]

what is your ruling on learning maneuvers as a multiclass martial adept.

i.e. does taking your first level of swordsage at 9 allow you to pick up 3rd level maneuvers since you have an initiator level of 5?

Yes, assuming that you have the prerequisite maneuvers needed to get whatever it is you want.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Feel free to post, it doesn't need to be guaranteed.

I am going to, its just not fully fleshed out yet.

[Xervous]

can we retrain feats?

Oh, and partial BAB?

[Mithril Leaf]

If I don't use monk abilities but instead use a combat method usually considered equally craptastic, what sort of point balance does that net?

[Emperor Tippy]

If I don't use monk abilities but instead use a combat method usually considered equally craptastic, what sort of point balance does that net?

Depends on what one you use.


can we retrain feats?
Using Psychic Reformation or Embrace/Shun yes.


Oh, and partial BAB?
No.

[Tvtyrant]

Just because it makes me giggle: Monks have Knowledge Religion, and BoVD allows you to essentially cast Greater Planar Binding with a DC 35 Knowledge Religion check (by sacrificing people). Should be pretty easy to get a LOT stronger that way, including summoning that one demon that grants all demonic grafts for free (found in Fiend Folio, I think, if it's not in Fiendish Codex) or by the obvious Effreti wish possibilities.

Also, the Shou Disciple PrC is a Monk PrC that advances all the fun Monk stuff... and in 5 levels lets you flurry with any martial weapon, IIRC. It's also got full BAB.

JaronK

Actually it would be pretty funny to bind an Elder Evil to fight the other Elder Evils. Pandorym is better than anything you can bind, alas.

[Xervous]

This is what I have so far.

10 monk, 5 shou disciple, 2 saint, 1 swordsage 2 shadow sun ninja (anthropomorphic bat), necropolitan

AC 73, Touch 71. Elder evils can only hit on nat 20s
+39 Will save. Passes all save on 2’s or is flat out immune
+35 Reflex save. Passes all but two saves on 2’s. Of those two abilities, one does negligible damage and the other is a suicidal move on the Elder Evil’s part.
Pride domain: now 1/400 chance of failing saves.
Undead immunities fill in a lot of gaps, especially vs. mind affecting and fort save abilities that don't affect objects.
Freedom of Movement: No grapples
Ex flight with hovering
+10 turn resistance for a day to overcome Ragnorra
8 attack ranged full attack starting at +40~44 with woodland archer and Hank’s energy bow, enough to hit the high ACs of certain elder evils (which are ironically less of a threat), and big enough to bring home the world ending bacon with power attack. Also overcomes DR / Epic
immunity to dispel magic through saint's globe Su, and dispel magic, greater through spellblade
Has Shadow blink for tactical teleportation
Has space in the build for ring of 3 wishes OR third eye conceal. (AKA ~140,000 gp unspent)
Cheesiest things are probably saint and item familiar.


To do: make a melee variant of this.

The crunch

With 17 monk, 2 saint: using anthropomorphic bat (+6 wis)
Necropolitan conversion performed at level 3.

Wis of 42 (18 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 2 + 6): tomes, levelup, +6 item, saint, racial
Dex of 28 (18 + 4 + 6 + 4) tomes, +6 item, racial

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Cobra strike style from Dragon 310 to get a bonus feat that we need. (dodge)

Holy strike ACF from CC, ki strike magic -> ki strike holy that deals +1d6 vs. evil targets. (Going to do a melee variant of this next)

Planar monk sub level 5: lose purity of body, gain energy resistance 5 sonic

AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+2 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending shuriken
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 shou disciple dodge bonus
+1 robe of the vagabond
+2 bracers of armor
+1 dusty rose Ioun stone
= 73 AC and 71 Touch AC

(Atropus has +54 slams, pandorym +52 ranged touch, so this now prevents him from hitting on anything but 20s. Also, atropus has no way to catch you if you’re flying, but I’m just being safe.)

Will save: +14 + 16 wis + 5 cloak +2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 39. Passes all saves.
Ref save: +16 + 9 dex + 5 cloak + 2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 35.

Domain Draught Pride = 1/400 chance to fail a save if you succeed on 2s.

Passes all saves except for Artopus's meteor shower and Ragnorra's trample on 2s. Improved evasion halves the damage from both of those, putting the meteors' average damage to 27.5 bludgeoning and 27.5 fire (which is reduced by 10 through saint). Of course Atropus is paying 50 hp for this on top of eating the damage (20d10-> 110 average) himself since he has a piddly +25 ref. A ToB save replacer combined with item familiar silliness would net an easy +46 or higher. Ragnorra's trample is almost ignorable at 4d6+19, halving to an average of 16.5 damage. Not to mention we're flying and they wouldn't be able to affect us anyways.


Ring of Freedom of Movement: say no to grapples. 40,000
Domain draught: pride. 3300 per.
Two +5 tomes, 275,000
Two +6 enhancement bonus items, 72,000
Cloak of resistance +5: 25,000
Ring of deflection +5: 50,000
+5 warning shuriken with spellblade keyed to greater dispel magic: 8,560
potion of CL 20 incorporeal enhancement: 3,000
+2 bracers of armor 4,000
dusty rose ioun stone 5,000
robe of the vagabond 10,000

= under 500,000 (around 497,000 if one domain draught is purchased)



elder evil ACs
atropus, AC: 54, touch 15, flat-footed 42
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30

So we have a highest target AC of 54, and highest touch of 30.

Now for his attack routine

Knowledge devotion, nab knowledge the plains for all those outsiders. Pick up collector of stories for a nice +5 to ID these suckers. With item familiar, it’s easy to hit the DC 36 for the top tier bonus vs. outsiders and undead, you have just enough cross class ranks to fill up knowledge(dungeoneering) to land you somewhere in the +2 to +3 area for the aberrations.

Archery build
2 flaw feats, 2 bonus feats*, 7 levels of feats
dodge*, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Point blank shot, rapid shot, woodland archer, zen archer, item familiar, knowledge devotion, improved flight (to get you hovering). Adaptive Style, Shou Disciple bonus feat*

Maneuvers of note:
Shadow Blink, because it has no prerequisite number of maneuvers known.


13 BAB
+1 size
+16 zen archery
+5 ~~hank’s energy bow (with splitting, holy, magebane, and martial discipline weapon)
+2 holy
+2 magebane
-2 rapidshot
+2 assorted bane arrows (don’t use em against pandorym)
+5 max with knowledge devotion
= +44/+44/+44/+44/+39/+39/+34/+34

Between the +2 base on hank’s, holy and the bane arrows or magebane, you are overcoming epic DR.


bane
1d8 + 6d6 + 7 + however much you power attack for
force (at -2 attack bonus)
6d6 + 7 + power attack


assuming hank’s energy bow is at most a +3 total bonus magic item. Upgrading it to total +7 puts its value at 102,600, the last two are obtained through item familiar free of charge.
bane arrows are cheap, 8000gp and change for 50.

Spending liberally on the consumables and accounting for the minor base costs of some items, I still have upwards of 144,000 gp left to patch up holes that may emerge in this build. A ring of three wishes could be bought and there would still be over 45,000 to spare on juicy domain draughts and such. Or third eye conceal to become immune to divinations that would let my enemies beat my AC.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's... That's so awful I've never even considered it.

Why not?

The destruction of the Hulks drops one of the defenses around Pandorym who's greater sign messes up the binding on Father Llymic (and thus starts to free him) who's greater sign (turning off the sun) causes enough chaos to make the Leviathan's awakening possible and the deaths caused by those continent spanning storms are enough to attract Atropus while such a concentration of negative energy is enough to attract Ragnorra, the occurrence of so many disasters in short order and the inability of the gods to stop (or even predict) them causes greatly increased worship in Sertrous. The earthquakes caused by Ragnorra's impact caused enough damage to Edwin Tolstoff's prison to free him and he thus goes to free Kyuss. Zargon is also freed from the earthquakes and is wandering around killing stuff.

[unseenmage]

The destruction of the Hulks drops one of the defenses around Pandorym who's greater sign messes up the binding on Father Llymic (and thus starts to free him) who's greater sign (turning off the sun) causes enough chaos to make the Leviathan's awakening possible and the deaths caused by those continent spanning storms are enough to attract Atropus while such a concentration of negative energy is enough to attract Ragnorra, the occurrence of so many disasters in short order and the inability of the gods to stop (or even predict) them causes greatly increased worship in Sertrous. The earthquakes caused by Ragnorra's impact caused enough damage to Edwin Tolstoff's prison to free him and he thus goes to free Kyuss. Zargon is also freed from the earthquakes and is wandering around killing stuff.

'And the-hu Ta-arr-aa-asque in a peaaar treeeeeeee...'

But seriously, best epic-plus D&D xmas adventure ever.

[Emperor Tippy]

'And the-hu Ta-arr-aa-asque in a peaaar treeeeeeee...'

But seriously, best epic-plus D&D xmas adventure ever.

Epic plus? This is a fairly standard level 17-20 campaign arc for a party of 4 PC's that isn't particularly optimized.

The only reason that this challenge is difficult is that I asked for soloing it with a Monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I had an interesting idea, but unfortunately Swordsage, for purposes of this contest, is not Monk, so I don't have enough Monk levels in the build. I'm working on it, though.

By the way, a Warforged's body can end up with things like Mithral or Adamantine, which is by definition Mastercrafted, meaning it can then be enchanted. Pretty cool.

Let's see... Aptitude and Throwing enchantment plus some feats like Boomerang Riccochet and Lightning Maces, I might be able to get an 'exploding dice' scenario going pretty easily. However, I'd need four levels of Bloodstorm Blade to increase my range to 'line of sight'. Basically, he kills the elder gods by throwing parts of his body at them. Call it 'rocket fists' if you want a more anime theme to it.

I'm trying to find a workaround for the problem, but the going is fairly slow. It's also rather feat-intensive.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I'm confused at what's going on with the hulks, they seem to be weak mooks while the main focus is on this NPC and you can stop them from being awakened. So what should we accomplish for the Hulks of Zoretha?

[Spuddles]

This is what I have so far.

10 monk, 5 shou disciple, 2 saint, 1 swordsage 2 shadow sun ninja (anthropomorphic bat), necropolitan

AC 73, Touch 71. Elder evils can only hit on nat 20s
+39 Will save. Passes all save on 2’s or is flat out immune
+35 Reflex save. Passes all but two saves on 2’s. Of those two abilities, one does negligible damage and the other is a suicidal move on the Elder Evil’s part.
Pride domain: now 1/400 chance of failing saves.
Undead immunities fill in a lot of gaps, especially vs. mind affecting and fort save abilities that don't affect objects.
Freedom of Movement: No grapples
Ex flight with hovering
+10 turn resistance for a day to overcome Ragnorra
8 attack ranged full attack starting at +40~44 with woodland archer and Hank’s energy bow, enough to hit the high ACs of certain elder evils (which are ironically less of a threat), and big enough to bring home the world ending bacon with power attack. Also overcomes DR / Epic
immunity to dispel magic through saint's globe Su, and dispel magic, greater through spellblade
Has Shadow blink for tactical teleportation
Has space in the build for ring of 3 wishes OR third eye conceal. (AKA ~140,000 gp unspent)
Cheesiest things are probably saint and item familiar.


To do: make a melee variant of this.

The crunch

With 17 monk, 2 saint: using anthropomorphic bat (+6 wis)
Necropolitan conversion performed at level 3.

Wis of 42 (18 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 2 + 6): tomes, levelup, +6 item, saint, racial
Dex of 28 (18 + 4 + 6 + 4) tomes, +6 item, racial

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Cobra strike style from Dragon 310 to get a bonus feat that we need. (dodge)

Holy strike ACF from CC, ki strike magic -> ki strike holy that deals +1d6 vs. evil targets. (Going to do a melee variant of this next)

Planar monk sub level 5: lose purity of body, gain energy resistance 5 sonic

AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+2 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending shuriken
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 shou disciple dodge bonus
+1 robe of the vagabond
+2 bracers of armor
+1 dusty rose Ioun stone
= 73 AC and 71 Touch AC

(Atropus has +54 slams, pandorym +52 ranged touch, so this now prevents him from hitting on anything but 20s. Also, atropus has no way to catch you if you’re flying, but I’m just being safe.)

Will save: +14 + 16 wis + 5 cloak +2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 39. Passes all saves.
Ref save: +16 + 9 dex + 5 cloak + 2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 35.

Domain Draught Pride = 1/400 chance to fail a save if you succeed on 2s.

Passes all saves except for Artopus's meteor shower and Ragnorra's trample on 2s. Improved evasion halves the damage from both of those, putting the meteors' average damage to 27.5 bludgeoning and 27.5 fire (which is reduced by 10 through saint). Of course Atropus is paying 50 hp for this on top of eating the damage (20d10-> 110 average) himself since he has a piddly +25 ref. A ToB save replacer combined with item familiar silliness would net an easy +46 or higher. Ragnorra's trample is almost ignorable at 4d6+19, halving to an average of 16.5 damage. Not to mention we're flying and they wouldn't be able to affect us anyways.


Ring of Freedom of Movement: say no to grapples. 40,000
Domain draught: pride. 3300 per.
Two +5 tomes, 275,000
Two +6 enhancement bonus items, 72,000
Cloak of resistance +5: 25,000
Ring of deflection +5: 50,000
+5 warning shuriken with spellblade keyed to greater dispel magic: 8,560
potion of CL 20 incorporeal enhancement: 3,000
+2 bracers of armor 4,000
dusty rose ioun stone 5,000
robe of the vagabond 10,000

= under 500,000 (around 497,000 if one domain draught is purchased)



elder evil ACs
atropus, AC: 54, touch 15, flat-footed 42
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30

So we have a highest target AC of 54, and highest touch of 30.

Now for his attack routine

Knowledge devotion, nab knowledge the plains for all those outsiders. Pick up collector of stories for a nice +5 to ID these suckers. With item familiar, it’s easy to hit the DC 36 for the top tier bonus vs. outsiders and undead, you have just enough cross class ranks to fill up knowledge(dungeoneering) to land you somewhere in the +2 to +3 area for the aberrations.

Archery build
2 flaw feats, 2 bonus feats*, 7 levels of feats
dodge*, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Point blank shot, rapid shot, woodland archer, zen archer, item familiar, knowledge devotion, improved flight (to get you hovering). Adaptive Style, Shou Disciple bonus feat*

Maneuvers of note:
Shadow Blink, because it has no prerequisite number of maneuvers known.


13 BAB
+1 size
+16 zen archery
+5 ~~hank’s energy bow (with splitting, holy, magebane, and martial discipline weapon)
+2 holy
+2 magebane
-2 rapidshot
+2 assorted bane arrows (don’t use em against pandorym)
+5 max with knowledge devotion
= +44/+44/+44/+44/+39/+39/+34/+34

Between the +2 base on hank’s, holy and the bane arrows or magebane, you are overcoming epic DR.


bane
1d8 + 6d6 + 7 + however much you power attack for
force (at -2 attack bonus)
6d6 + 7 + power attack


assuming hank’s energy bow is at most a +3 total bonus magic item. Upgrading it to total +7 puts its value at 102,600, the last two are obtained through item familiar free of charge.
bane arrows are cheap, 8000gp and change for 50.

Spending liberally on the consumables and accounting for the minor base costs of some items, I still have upwards of 144,000 gp left to patch up holes that may emerge in this build. A ring of three wishes could be bought and there would still be over 45,000 to spare on juicy domain draughts and such. Or third eye conceal to become immune to divinations that would let my enemies beat my AC.








That's awesome. I wonder if you can get enough damage out of fists to do that even more monk-ly.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm confused at what's going on with the hulks, they seem to be weak mooks while the main focus is on this NPC and you can stop them from being awakened. So what should we accomplish for the Hulks of Zoretha?

If you prevent their initial awakening then they just wake up later (no chance to prevent that one), so you still have to fight them.

Granted, they are honestly some of the easier ones to fight (the male being the only one that can fly and attack flying targets up at the top of the room).

[Xervous]

I was inspired to make a "can't touch this" chassis using close to 0 spell duplication items (not counting things like ring of FoM) or custom items, and of course no casting whatsoever by the general attitude the monk class has about things. It's good at not getting hit, so I optimized that. This little ninja-bat will take his time pounding the snot out of the elder evils, and look awesome doing it.


The melee version will include a level of shiba protector for wis to damage AND hit, combining it with intuitive strike and I have wisdom to hit TWICE.

flurry at 12 BAB with snap kick
+1 size
+16 wis
+16 wis
+5 knowledge devotion
-2 snap kick
~
+49/+49/+49/+49/+44/+39

add in TWF feat chain
+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+42/+42/+37/+37 (This is unreal, am I doing it right?)

2d8 unarmed + 1d6 ACF + 1d6/1d8 saint + 16 - 3 STR is a dump stat
average 29 vs. evil, 30 vs. undead/outsider.

But wait, Shou Disciple lets us use any weapon for flurry, and saint makes us an outsider so we get proficiency in all martial weapons. What do?

Answer: twohand something and power attack you fool, because you are now two handing while two weapon fighting. Go be an action hero.

Will finish this tomorrow

[Spuddles]

I was inspired to make a "can't touch this" chassis using close to 0 spell duplication items (not counting things like ring of FoM) or custom items, and of course no casting whatsoever by the general attitude the monk class has about things. It's good at not getting hit, so I optimized that. This little ninja-bat will take his time pounding the snot out of the elder evils, and look awesome doing it.


The melee version will include a level of shiba protector for wis to damage AND hit, combining it with intuitive strike and I have wisdom to hit TWICE.

flurry at 12 BAB with snap kick
+1 size
+16 wis
+16 wis
+5 knowledge devotion
-2 snap kick
~
+49/+49/+49/+49/+44/+39

add in TWF feat chain
+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+42/+42/+37/+37 (This is unreal, am I doing it right?)

2d8 unarmed + 1d6 ACF + 1d6/1d8 saint + 16 - 3 STR is a dump stat
average 29 vs. evil, 30 vs. undead/outsider.

But wait, Shou Disciple lets us use any weapon for flurry, and saint makes us an outsider so we get proficiency in all martial weapons. What do?

Answer: twohand something and power attack you fool, because you are now two handing while two weapon fighting. As a monk.

That's actually badass enough to make me want to play monk.

One question though: if you're an Outsider, how are you getting the benefits of the Undead type?

[Xervous]

Now that is a good question... clearly we've got a problem here.

99% probability that undead trumps outsider, we'll just have to use a quarterstaff.

Never mind, shou disciple gives us proficiency in martial weapons.



EDIT: As per savage species, Undead and Outsider are on the same tier, so it looks like we have to do our sainthood first, then get Necropolitanized.

EDIT 2: Necropolitan + Saint is possibly invalid because saint requires "Living creature AND not an elemental/outsider" however, by the same logic that you need to continue to qualify for the template, it (saint) invalidates itself by making you an outsider.

EDIT 3: Necropolitan can't be applied to a saint because they aren't a humanoid or monstrous humanoid.

[Zombulian]

Answer: twohand something and power attack you fool, because you are now two handing while two weapon fighting. Go be an action hero.


Wait how the whaaaat.

[Xervous]

Aside from my terrible blunder on mixing necropolitan and saint, THF + TWF works for monks.

2 hands + rest of body for unarmed strikes

So, Greatsword + pelvic thrusts of doom as offhand.


** Well, I guess I found out what that 140,000 leftover gold in my build is going towards. Third eye conceal and bracers of armor + soulfire say hello.

Dammit, now I need to look over the fort save targeting abilities...

[Zombulian]

Aside from my terrible blunder on mixing necropolitan and saint, THF + TWF works for monks.

2 hands + rest of body for unarmed strikes

So, Greatsword + pelvic thrusts of doom as offhand.

Awwwwwww yusssssss

[Rubik]

Alright, so. I'm thinking a dragonborn warforged monk-with-lots-of-ACFs 17/illithid savant 3, using a psychoactive skin of proteus to qualify. I'll steal the manifesting of a 20th level egoist (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) for defensive buffage.

Now, warforged can magically enhance their bodies, which means they're at least masterwork quality already.

So, I'll just combine the following:

+3 - Item Familiar
+5 - Tooth of Leraje
+9 - Necklace of natural weapons
+9 - Ancestral Relic
+9 - Gauntlet

...into a +44 equivalent unarmed strike (that's not counting the overlapping +1 enhancement bonuses on everything). I might find additional additions to add, as well.

Since the monk's entire body is essentially an unarmed strike, and it counts as both manufactured and natural for various purposes, I'll add in ghost touch (to count as corporeal or incorporeal for whatever purposes, such as hitting shadows, avoiding attacks, and walking through walls), throwing and distance (to hurl myself in a flurry of TWFing body slamming fist-chucking), and manyfang (for x4 damage). There will be others, of course, but you get the general idea.

Making the most out of the monk's unusual version of the unarmed strike! This is gonna be fun!

[edit] Oh! I almost forgot to mention that I'm adding on a stacked-out-the-wazoo collection of weapon crystals. Woo!

[Pickford]

Rules spoilered.


So I have a challenge for anyone interested in doing it. Build an ECL 20 (or lower) character that has at least 17 levels of Monk (PrC's that advance Monk levels are allowed) and can solo every challenge in the Elder Evils book.

Now restrictions:
1) You can't exceed Wealth by Level (760,000 GP) by any means.
2) You get 210,000 XP (20,000 more than 20th level).
3) The spells Ice Assassin and Simulacrum aren't allowed by any means, nor is the power Astral Seed.
4) All official 3.5 sources are allowed but anything not in the SRD must be followed by a source abbreviation and page number.
5) The same build must go through all challenges (from lowest to highest CR) and can only be respeced between challenges if such an ability is included in your build (having Psychic Reformation or being able to chain gate to swap items, for example).
6) Stats are 32 point buy.
7) You are allowed up to 2 flaws.
8) Leadership (or any similar variant) is not allowed.

Points are awarded based on success in the challenges and how little you need to use the UMD skill. Similarly, the more cheese you use the less points that you get; this being said we are working with cheese as defined by me.

You also get more points the closer you stick to "monk". The more you use monk class features the better, basically this is about being primarily a monk with other abilities tacked on to improve the monk. Where the line is is mostly up to me so feel free to ask questions.

You also gain points based on how viable the build is from level 1 onwards. For example, you could choose to take Vow of Poverty at level 1 and then use Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos at level 20 to pick up eleven extra feats but you would loose points because playing a monk from level 1 to 20 with VoP isn't particularly viable.

Let's see, infinite loops are also generally barred.

Now for the reward. The best respondent (as judged by me) gets first look at a project that I am working on.

I reserve the right to modify or clarify these rules at any time for any reason.

So have at it, let's see what you can do.

Blind Pew

LG Human
Monk 6/Drunken Master 10/Monk 4

Base Stats
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 8
5 ability point increases (Wis +2, Str +2, Int +1)
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 8
After gear
Str 24 (+7), Dex 16 (+3), Con 16 (+3), Int 22 (+6), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 8

BAB: +14/+9/+4
Flurry BAB: +14/+14/+9/+4
(+5 aomf, +7 str)
AB: +26/+21/+16
Flurry AB: +26/+26/+21/+16
(If using 10 str drinks, str bonus is +17)
DLAD AB: +36/+31/+26

AC: 36 (10 base + 7 (wis) + 3 (dex) + 5 (AC Bonus) + 3 (ring of protection) + 8 (bracers of armor))
Dodge +1, Swaying Waist +2 (39 total)

Feats
Human: Power Attack
1st: Great Fortitude
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
Monk 2nd: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Flying Kick
6th: Dodge
Monk 6th: Improved Disarm
9th: Acrobatic Strike
12th: Roundabout Kick
Drunken Master 6th (12th): Improved Feint
Drunken Master 7th (13th): Improved Grapple
15th: Superior Unarmed Strike
18th: Leap Attack

Skills: (218) (23 ranks max)
Balance: 23 ranks
Climb: 23 ranks
Escape Artist: 23 ranks
Jump: 23 ranks
Tumble: 23 ranks
Swim: 23 ranks
Listen: 23 ranks
Move Silently: 23 ranks
Bluff: 23 ranks

Saves:
Fort 24 (+14 base + 2 great fortitude + 3 con + 5 resistance)
Reflex 22 (+14 base + 3 dex + 5 resistance)
Will 22 (+10 base +7 wis + 5 resistance)

Special Abilities/Qualities:
Flurry of Blows (Ex); Improved Evasion (Ex); Fast Movement +30' (Ex); Still Mind (Ex); Ki Strike (magic) (lawful) (Su); Slow Fall 50' (Ex); Purity of Body (Ex); Wholeness of Body (Su); Drink Like a Demon (Ex); Superior Improvised Weapons (Ex); Stagger (Ex); Swaying Waist (Ex); AC Bonus (Ex); For Medicinal Purposes (Sp); Corkscrew Rush (Ex); Breath of Flame (Sp);

Equipment: (760k max)
Monk's Belt (13k)/+6 Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis (180k)
Decanter of Endless Wine (9k) (If the customized item is too weird, I suppose a bag of holding filled entirely with ale would be more 'normal', the type 1 (2,500gp) could hold 250 mugs for 10gp.
Ring of Invisibility (20k)
Ring of Protection +3 (18k)
Amulet of the Planes (180k)/Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150k)
Scarab of Protection x2 (76k)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64k)
Boots, Winged (16k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)

[Spuddles]

Rules spoilered.


Blind Pew

LG Human
Monk 6/Drunken Master 10/Monk 4

Base Stats
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 8
5 ability point increases (Wis +2, Str +2, Int +1)
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 8
After gear
Str 24 (+7), Dex 16 (+3), Con 16 (+3), Int 22 (+6), Wis 24 (+7), Cha 8

BAB: +14/+9/+4
Flurry BAB: +14/+14/+9/+4
(+5 aomf, +7 str)
AB: +26/+21/+16
Flurry AB: +26/+26/+21/+16
(If using 10 str drinks, str bonus is +17)
DLAD AB: +36/+31/+26

AC: 36 (10 base + 7 (wis) + 3 (dex) + 5 (AC Bonus) + 3 (ring of protection) + 8 (bracers of armor))
Dodge +1, Swaying Waist +2 (39 total)

Feats
Human: Power Attack
1st: Great Fortitude
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
Monk 2nd: Deflect Arrows
3rd: Flying Kick
6th: Dodge
Monk 6th: Improved Disarm
9th: Acrobatic Strike
12th: Roundabout Kick
Drunken Master 6th (12th): Improved Feint
Drunken Master 7th (13th): Improved Grapple
15th: Superior Unarmed Strike
18th: Leap Attack

Skills: (218) (23 ranks max)
Balance: 23 ranks
Climb: 23 ranks
Escape Artist: 23 ranks
Jump: 23 ranks
Tumble: 23 ranks
Swim: 23 ranks
Listen: 23 ranks
Move Silently: 23 ranks
Bluff: 23 ranks

Saves:
Fort 24 (+14 base + 2 great fortitude + 3 con + 5 resistance)
Reflex 22 (+14 base + 3 dex + 5 resistance)
Will 22 (+10 base +7 wis + 5 resistance)

Special Abilities/Qualities:
Flurry of Blows (Ex); Improved Evasion (Ex); Fast Movement +30' (Ex); Still Mind (Ex); Ki Strike (magic) (lawful) (Su); Slow Fall 50' (Ex); Purity of Body (Ex); Wholeness of Body (Su); Drink Like a Demon (Ex); Superior Improvised Weapons (Ex); Stagger (Ex); Swaying Waist (Ex); AC Bonus (Ex); For Medicinal Purposes (Sp); Corkscrew Rush (Ex); Breath of Flame (Sp);

Equipment: (760k max)
Monk's Belt (13k)/+6 Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis (180k)
Decanter of Endless Wine (9k) (If the customized item is too weird, I suppose a bag of holding filled entirely with ale would be more 'normal', the type 1 (2,500gp) could hold 250 mugs for 10gp.
Ring of Invisibility (20k)
Ring of Protection +3 (18k)
Amulet of the Planes (180k)/Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150k)
Scarab of Protection x2 (76k)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64k)
Boots, Winged (16k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)


Your drink like a demon is calculated incorrectly, I believe. The benefits/penalties are to your scores, not modifiers. So if you want a +10 str bonus, you need to drink 20 drinks, which will leave you with 7 wisdom, 0 int, and 0 dex. So comatose and paralyzed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your drink like a demon is calculated incorrectly, I believe. The benefits/penalties are to your scores, not modifiers. So if you want a +10 str bonus, you need to drink 20 drinks, which will leave you with 7 wisdom, 0 int, and 0 dex. So comatose and paralyzed.

Which version of Drunken Master are you reading?


Every bottle or tankard of alcohol he consumes during combat reduces his wisdom and intelligence by 2 points each, but increases his strength or constitution by 2 points.After ten drinks he'll be down to single digits on wisdom and intelligence, but he'll be up by +10 on his strength. It's a terrible battle plan, especially since he's got to spend 10 standard actions -in combat- to get there, but he'll still be moving and flailing about.

Even if those numbers couldn't get him past a pit-fiend, much less most of the elder evils.

[Red Rubber Band]

But wait, Shou Disciple lets us use any weapon for flurry, and saint makes us an outsider so we get proficiency in all martial weapons. What do?

Answer: twohand something and power attack you fool, because you are now two handing while two weapon fighting. Go be an action hero.

May I sig this?
:smallsmile:

[Spuddles]

Which version of Drunken Master are you reading?

After ten drinks he'll be down to single digits on wisdom and intelligence, but he'll be up by +10 on his strength. It's a terrible battle plan, especially since he's got to spend 10 standard actions -in combat- to get there, but he'll still be moving and flailing about.

Even if those numbers couldn't get him past a pit-fiend, much less most of the elder evils.

Ah, my mistake, was looking at the wrong set of numbers as well as the S&F drunken master. He'll still be up it appears. Not capable of anything besides hitting with his fists, but up.

[iDesu]

Ah, my mistake, was looking at the wrong set of numbers as well as the S&F drunken master. He'll still be up it appears. Not capable of anything besides hitting with his fists, but up.

To be fair how is that any different from a normal monk? I mean besides the fact that he's actually hitting things with his fist?

[Spuddles]

To be fair how is that any different from a normal monk? I mean besides the fact that he's actually hitting things with his fist?

I mean it just prevents knowing what your opponent is going to do, how to use any defensive items properly, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

To be fair how is that any different from a normal monk? I mean besides the fact that he's actually hitting things with his fist?

There is also the fact that he doesn't have really any of the immunities or other things needed to fight the Elder Evils. And he can't overcome most of the Elder Evil's regeneration, and doesn't actually have enough money let to buy those necessary defenses.

[iDesu]

Have you ever witnessed Pickford play a monk? He metagames like his monk has ranks in arcana, spellcraft, and always hides under a tree that just happens to be there. And summons badgers and crap.

Not that a bunch of tiny +2 bonuses from height advantage, etc., is even going to matter vs. an Aspect of Atropus.

I was less commenting on the build and more taking the easy swing at the monk class.

[Juntao112]

Have you ever witnessed Pickford play a monk? He metagames like his monk has ranks in arcana, spellcraft, and always hides under a tree that just happens to be there. And summons badgers and crap.


To be fair, he has moved on from metagaming.

[Rubik]

To be fair, he has moved on from metagaming.Yes. Evolution has run its course. If this were a marriage, his wife would get all the money AND the kids.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is anyone else as impressed as I am with how effective Xervous monk is with so little cheese?

With some minor tweaking he'd be acceptable in most "normal" games.

[Spuddles]

Is anyone else as impressed as I am with how effective Xervous monk is with so little cheese?

With some minor tweaking he'd be acceptable in most "normal" games.

I certainly am. The Saint/Necropolitan things needs to be revised, as that is a source of many bonuses/immunities.

I am similarly having difficulty obtaining all the necessary defenses while remaining type-legal.

[Sith_Happens]

Have you ever witnessed Pickford play a monk? He metagames like his monk has ranks in arcana, spellcraft, and always hides under a tree that just happens to be there. And summons badgers and crap.

Not that a bunch of tiny +2 bonuses from height advantage, etc., is even going to matter vs. an Aspect of Atropus.

No need to drag in baggage from other threads.

[Spuddles]

No need to drag in baggage from other threads.

Fair enough.

[Balor01]

How come that this bs thread gets eight pages of replyes and my "spells for lvl 4 cleric" threads get zero love?

I am genuinely sad, playground. :smallfrown:

[Emperor Tippy]

How come that this bs thread gets eight pages of replyes and my "spells for lvl 4 cleric" threads get zero love?

I am genuinely sad, playground. :smallfrown:

Because I posted it is probably the big reason. :smallwink:

It's also a non traditional challenge while we probably get one to two threads per week asking what spells to pick for a given build. You also didn't really say what kind of cleric you were looking for (healer, buffer, melee, debuffer, etc.).

[Vaz]

You didn't say it was an Optimization Challenge, that's why. Plus, we're trying to break Tippyverse.

Another cheese build;

Hatchling Phaerimm 1/Monkish 17 Levels/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 2

Use Archmage to get Wish as an SLA. Wish for Body Outside Body, then Persist through Cooperative Magic.

In addition, you can use PAO to change into a Dusk Giant. Eat a ton of creatures to gain HD. Your Casting went up a thousand fold; proceed to create a Team Solar Army a million billion trillion arbitrary high number strong.

Proceed to Astral Seed yourself into that Arbitrary High HD Creature.

Or is too Infinite Loopy?

[Emperor Tippy]

You didn't say it was an Optimization Challenge, that's why. Plus, we're trying to break Tippyverse.
No you aren't. You are trying to beat the Elder Evils with the weakest core class.


Another cheese build;

Hatchling Phaerimm 1/Monkish 17 Levels/Archmage 1/Incantatrix 2

Use Archmage to get Wish as an SLA. Wish for Body Outside Body, then Persist through Cooperative Magic.

In addition, you can use PAO to change into a Dusk Giant. Eat a ton of creatures to gain HD. Your Casting went up a thousand fold; proceed to create a Team Solar Army a million billion trillion arbitrary high number strong.

Proceed to Astral Seed yourself into that Arbitrary High HD Creature.

Or is too Infinite Loopy?

Negative a million points, plus Astral Seed is specifically banned.

Phaerimm also can't polymorph unless you Ability Rip them first.

[Spuddles]

Phaerimm, and any other creature with a special immunity to magic, can lower that immunity if they wish.


"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow

The PHB (page 177) includes the following parenthetical that is omitted from the SRD:

(for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects)

[Xervous]

May I sig this?
:smallsmile:

I was half expecting someone to ask. Actually, I like it so much I was considering sigging myself, but thats kind of like fapping your epeen...

Also, what races are we allowed to apply Human Heritage (RoD 202) to?

[Pickford]

Your drink like a demon is calculated incorrectly, I believe. The benefits/penalties are to your scores, not modifiers. So if you want a +10 str bonus, you need to drink 20 drinks, which will leave you with 7 wisdom, 0 int, and 0 dex. So comatose and paralyzed.

10 drinks is +20 str is it not? That's +10 to the str mod which is default giving +7...

How am I miscalculating this?

edit: Tippy I never metagame, Juntao112 is just bringing in another thread (a violation of forum rules).

Also I don't know the elder evils stat-blocks at all, I just wanted to have fun seeing how he'd react to your thing.

[ddude987]

Could you perhaps include a points rubric? Or are you just arbitrarily granting points to builds?

[Emperor Tippy]

Could you perhaps include a points rubric? Or are you just arbitrarily granting points to builds?

It's quite arbitrary. For example, the IS build is actually tentatively positive at the moment while the one trying to use Manipulate Form is at negative a billion. Xervous is probably winning at the moment if he fixes the problems with his build, but nothing yet has made me stand up and go "Yep, that's amazingly awesome."

Pickford's build is unrated because it can't beat the weakest of the Elder Evils.

[Pickford]

It's quite arbitrary. For example, the IS build is actually tentatively positive at the moment while the one trying to use Manipulate Form is at negative a billion. Xervous is probably winning at the moment if he fixes the problems with his build, but nothing yet has made me stand up and go "Yep, that's amazingly awesome."

Pickford's build is unrated because it can't beat the weakest of the Elder Evils.

(Who are the Elder Evils, and why not?)

[Juntao112]

Before submitting a build, is it not a good idea to know what challenges the build must face? Know thy enemy and all that.

[Emperor Tippy]

(Who are the Elder Evils, and why not?)

See the book Elder Evils, and because you can't do damage that can overcome it's DR. Against the more powerful EE's you lack the immunities and abilities that you need to actually survive the environment that they are in.

[Zombulian]

You didn't say it was an Optimization Challenge, that's why. Plus, we're trying to break Tippyverse.


I'm... not sure you know what the Tippyverse is...


10 drinks is +20 str is it not? That's +10 to the str mod which is default giving +7...

How am I miscalculating this?

edit: Tippy I never metagame, Juntao112 is just bringing in another thread (a violation of forum rules).

Also I don't know the elder evils stat-blocks at all, I just wanted to have fun seeing how he'd react to your thing.

Yea your calculations seem to be fine...

I feel like anyone saying that they never metagame is kinda a lie... Though Spuddles was out of line.

I always appreciate a good Drunken Master build. Though you probably couldn't fight an Elder Evil, that's a perfectly fine build. Decanter of Endless wine is a pretty cool idea.

[Pickford]

See the book Elder Evils, and because you can't do damage that can overcome it's DR. Against the more powerful EE's you lack the immunities and abilities that you need to actually survive the environment that they are in.

What's the DR?

Related question: What were you thinking the damage from the Drunken Master's use of an improvised weapon is?

[Zombulian]

What's the DR?

Related question: What were you thinking the damage from the Drunken Master's use of an improvised weapon is?

If you have to ask you can't afford it honey.

[Emperor Tippy]

edit: Tippy I never metagame,
Metagame away, I don't care. In fact for this challenge I encourage it.


Juntao112 is just bringing in another thread (a violation of forum rules).
I'm not a mod, I don't care. If you don't like it then click the report button and inform a mod.


Also I don't know the elder evils stat-blocks at all, I just wanted to have fun seeing how he'd react to your thing.
That is a distinct problem, there is no reason to be doing this blind.



What's the DR?
I meant Regeneration actually. Regeneration 50 (Cold and Fire), DR 15/epic.


Related question: What were you thinking the damage from the Drunken Master's use of an improvised weapon is?
Not enough.

2d10+1d12+whatever other bonus damage you have.

[Pickford]

Metagame away, I don't care. In fact for this challenge I encourage it.


I'm not a mod, I don't care. If you don't like it then click the report button and inform a mod.


That is a distinct problem, there is no reason to be doing this blind.



I meant Regeneration actually. Regeneration 50 (Cold and Fire), DR 15/epic.


Not enough.

2d10+1d12+whatever other bonus damage you have.

Yes, a light load at 44 str allows an improvised weapon that deals 23d12 damage.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, a light load at 44 str allows an improvised weapon that deals 23d12 damage.
Where are you getting those additional 22 dice from? Drunken Master clearly states that "At 9th level and higher, a drunken master wielding an improvised weapon deals an extra 1d12 points of damage instead of 1d8." scaling from the original ability which is "A drunken master's improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points." Are you using outdated material off a random website instead of from the actual books again?

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, a light load at 44 str allows an improvised weapon that deals 23d12 damage.

...read your own class abilities.


Improvised Weapons (Ex):While bottles and tankards are a drunken master’s preferred improvised weapons, he can use furniture, farm implements, or nearly anything else at hand to attack his foes. A drunken master’s improvised weapon deals as much damage as his unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points.

Since you have Superior that 1d4 is instead 1d12.

[Zombulian]

Yes, a light load at 44 str allows an improvised weapon that deals 23d12 damage.

Except Drunken Master specifically has damage values for improvised weapons. I'm going to assume they override the silly values in the back of CWar.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, here are the challenges (as I see them) involved in getting a monk to pull this off.

1) Accuracy. You can't hurt it if you can't hit it, and a Monk has problems getting enough attack bonuses to consistently hit something like an Elder Evil. There's a reason people call the class ability 'flurry of misses'.

2) Application. It doesn't matter how good your accuracy is if you can't reach your target. So you need some means of closing or otherwise attacking at range.

3) Damage. It does you no good to be able to hit an elder evil if you can't even tickle it. Many of the tricks used to amp up damage work less well with monks because their unarmed attack cannot be two-handed. They also generally involve needing too many dips to qualify for this contest.

4) Survivability. Honestly, this is something that affects all melee classes equally... Elder Evils have some pretty nasty tricks up their sleeves. Sure, they have all three good saves, but that's only a start... 5 points of difference begins to pall when you need 50+ to have a hope of making a save. Not to mention the no-save type effects and the physical damage output some of them have.

And we need all that... on a Monk class.

I had an idea, but unfortunately Enlightened Fist can't advance Shadowcasting due to specifying arcane caster in the prerequisite. Flicker would've gone a long way to improving both offense and defense.

[Emperor Tippy]

So, here are the challenges (as I see them) involved in getting a monk to pull this off.

1) Accuracy. You can't hurt it if you can't hit it, and a Monk has problems getting enough attack bonuses to consistently hit something like an Elder Evil. There's a reason people call the class ability 'flurry of misses'.

2) Application. It doesn't matter how good your accuracy is if you can't reach your target. So you need some means of closing or otherwise attacking at range.

3) Damage. It does you no good to be able to hit an elder evil if you can't even tickle it. Many of the tricks used to amp up damage work less well with monks because their unarmed attack cannot be two-handed. They also generally involve needing too many dips to qualify for this contest.

4) Survivability. Honestly, this is something that affects all melee classes equally... Elder Evils have some pretty nasty tricks up their sleeves. Sure, they have all three good saves, but that's only a start... 5 points of difference begins to pall when you need 50+ to have a hope of making a save. Not to mention the no-save type effects and the physical damage output some of them have.

And we need all that... on a Monk class.

I had an idea, but unfortunately Enlightened Fist can't advance Shadowcasting due to specifying arcane caster in the prerequisite. Flicker would've gone a long way to improving both offense and defense.

Go ahead and do it as if Enlightened Fist can advance Shadowcasting. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.

[Xervous]

What races am I allowed to apply the Human Heritage feat (RoD 202) to?

[Emperor Tippy]

What races am I allowed to apply the Human Heritage feat (RoD 202) to?

What race do you want to apply it to?

[Xervous]

Anthropomorphic bat probably... of course this is just a lazy approach to the melee monk.

Archer monk is near completion of its fix.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anthropomorphic bat probably... of course this is just a lazy approach to the melee monk.
I don't think so on that one.

[Rubik]

So... How would you rule the Hammer Fist feat in Dragon Compendium? It says you can make an unarmed attack as a two-handed attack, but it doesn't preclude making a full attack action (though it does preclude a flurry, which is odd if it intended to disallow full attacks). Can you make a full attack and get the THF benefits for each single attack you make, or is it that only one attack in a full attack action gets the benefit? Or can you only use it on one single attack as a standard action? How does this work with abilities like Snap Kick or Double Hit or attacks of opportunity?

[Emperor Tippy]

Or can you only use it on one single attack as a standard action?
That's the one that I'm going with.

How does this work with abilities like Snap Kick or Double Hit or attacks of opportunity?
Extra attacks as normal, no extra damage from Hammer Fist.

[Draz74]

What about Action Points? If I've got an ability that requires an action point to use, can I use it?

Cheese out with a Trap of Unfettered Heroism?


what is your ruling on learning maneuvers as a multiclass martial adept.

i.e. does taking your first level of swordsage at 9 allow you to pick up 3rd level maneuvers since you have an initiator level of 5?

This isn't even controversial. The question that provokes RAW/RAI debates is whether your first stance has to be Level 1. Everyone agrees your non-stance maneuvers can be 3rd level (or whatever your initiator level allows).

[Stannum (IV)]

Fun idea.
I saw some mention of argent fist back there, but not a ruling on whether or not it was allowable. Could a ruling be given/repeated as to whether or not argent fist levels are considered monk levels? (Note that, to stay within the 3 non-monk levels and still meet prereqs, paladin2/cleric1 would be used to acquire both turning and divine grace)
Are magical locations allowed, if we count their cost against our wealth by level? I ask because of a particularly interesting magical location which gives a wide variety of immunities, a few bonuses, and regeneration, with the limiting factors being one's hp, fortitude and will saves, which one will already need if one wishes to solo such formidable encounters. And regeneration is just such a rare thing for players to get without obscure/cheesy tricks. Perhaps there's a reason for that...

[Xervous]

Ok, this seems to be the final version.


I give you

KID ICARUS


Kid Icarus

"Ranged Monk"

Anthropomorphic Bat
9 monk, 5 shou disciple, 1 tattooed monk, 2 saint, 1 swordsage, 2 shadow sun ninja

AC 73, Touch 72. Elder evils can only hit on nat 20s
+39 Will save. Passes all save on 2’s or is flat out immune
+35 Reflex save. Passes all but two saves on 2’s. Of those two abilities, one does negligible damage and the other is a suicidal move on the Elder Evil’s part.
+30 fort save. Passes all but one save on 2’s, passes that last save on 3’s
Pride domain + tattooed monk: now 1/8000 chance of failing saves that work on 2’s.
Freedom of Movement: No grapples
Mind blank. Because yeah.
Ex flight with hovering
8 attack ranged full attack starting at +37~41 with woodland archer and Hank’s energy bow, enough to hit the high ACs of certain elder evils (which are ironically less of a threat), and big enough to bring home the world ending bacon with power attack.
immunity to dispel magic through saint Su, and dispel magic, greater through spellblade.


The crunch

With 9 monk, 2 saint, 5 shou disciple, 1 tattooed monk, 1 swordsage, 2 shadow sun ninja: using anthropomorphic bat (+6 wis)

Wis of 42 (18 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 2 + 6): tomes, levelup, +6 item, saint, racial
Dex of 28 (18 + 4 + 6) tomes, +6 item
Con of 10 (8+2+2) +2 item, +2 saint

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Holy strike ACF from CC, ki strike magic -> ki strike holy that deals +1d6 vs. evil targets.

Planar monk sub level 5: lose purity of body, gain energy resistance 5 sonic

AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+3 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending shuriken
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 shou disciple dodge bonus
+1 robe of the vagabond
+1 bracers of armor
+1 dusty rose ioun stone
= 73 AC , 72 Touch AC

(Atropus has +54 slams, pandorym +52 ranged touch, so this now prevents him from hitting on anything but 20s. Also, atropus has no way to catch you if you’re flying, but I’m just being safe.)


Dragon brew: Dragon 301, page 58. 50 gp. +1 alchemical fort save for 1 hour.

Fort save: +17 + 5 cloak +1 con + 2 acf + 1 robe + 1 parrying +1 alchemical +2 great fortitude = 30
Will save: +14 + 16 wis + 5 cloak +2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 39. Passes all saves.
Ref save: +17+ 9 dex + 5 cloak + 2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 35.

Domain Draught Pride = 1/400 chance to fail a save if you succeed on 2s.
Unicorn Tattoo = one reroll per day. So more like a 1/8000 chance of failing a save.


Ring of Freedom of Movement: say no to grapples. 40,000
Third eye conceal: 120,000
Domain draught: pride. 3300 per.
Two +5 tomes, 275,000
Two +6 enhancement bonus items, 72,000
Cloak of resistance +5: 25,000
Ring of deflection +5: 50,000
+5 warning shuriken with spellblade keyed to greater dispel magic: 8,560
potion of sheltered vitality: 3000 per (immunity to ability damage and drain)
+1 bracers of armor soulfire 25,000
robe of the vagabond 10,000
dusty rose ioun stone 5,000
belt of great fortitude (A&EG) 10,000

= under 650,000 (around 646,910 if one of each consumable is purchased)



elder evil ACs
atropus, AC: 54, touch 15, flat-footed 42
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30

So we have a highest target AC of 54, and highest touch of 30.





2 flaw feats, 3 bonus feats of note*, 7 levels of feats
improved grapple*, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Point blank shot, rapid shot, woodland archer, zen archer, item familiar, knowledge devotion, improved flight (to get you hovering), dodge, endurance*, great fortitude* (from the A&EG belt)

Maneuvers of note:
Shadow Blink, if for some reason you can’t just move somewhere.

Now for his attack routine

Knowledge devotion, nab knowledge the plains for all those outsiders. Pick up collector of stories for a nice +5 to ID these suckers. With item familiar, it’s easy to hit the DC 36 for the top tier bonus vs. outsiders and undead, you have just enough cross class ranks to fill up knowledge(dungeoneering) to land you somewhere in the +2 to +3 area for the aberrations.


12 BAB
+1 size
+16 zen archery
+5 ~~hank’s energy bow (with splitting, magebane, and martial discipline weapon)
-2 rapidshot
+2 magebane
+2 assorted bane arrows (don’t use em against pandorym)
+5 max with knowledge devotion
= +41/+41/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31/+31

bane
1d8 + 4d6 + 7 + however much you power attack for
force (at -2 attack bonus)
4d6 + 7 + power attack


assuming hank’s energy bow is at most a +3 total bonus magic item. Upgrading it to total +6 puts its value at 76,600, the last two are obtained through item familiar free of charge.
bane arrows are cheap, 8,000gp and change for 50.


Total value of items ~ under 740,000. Plenty of space for consumables.

[Piggy Knowles]

Ok, this seems to be the final version.


I give you

KID ICARUS


Kid Icarus

"Ranged Monk"

Anthropomorphic Bat
9 monk, 5 shou disciple, 1 tattooed monk, 2 saint, 1 swordsage, 2 shadow sun ninja

AC 73, Touch 71. Elder evils can only hit on nat 20s
+39 Will save. Passes all save on 2’s or is flat out immune
+35 Reflex save. Passes all but two saves on 2’s. Of those two abilities, one does negligible damage and the other is a suicidal move on the Elder Evil’s part.
+30 fort save. Passes all but one save on 2’s, passes that last save on 3’s
Pride domain + tattooed monk: now 1/8000 chance of failing saves that work on 2’s.
Freedom of Movement: No grapples
Mind blank. Because yeah.
Ex flight with hovering
8 attack ranged full attack starting at +37~41 with woodland archer and Hank’s energy bow, enough to hit the high ACs of certain elder evils (which are ironically less of a threat), and big enough to bring home the world ending bacon with power attack.
immunity to dispel magic through saint Su, and dispel magic, greater through spellblade.


The crunch

With 9 monk, 2 saint, 5 shou disciple, 1 tattooed monk, 1 swordsage, 2 shadow sun ninja: using anthropomorphic bat (+6 wis)

Wis of 42 (18 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 2 + 6): tomes, levelup, +6 item, saint, racial
Dex of 28 (18 + 4 + 6) tomes, +6 item
Con of 10 (8+2+2) +2 item, +2 saint

Prayerful meditation ACF from complete champion: lose still mind, get +2 to saves vs. spells and effects of chaotically aligned creatures and those with an alignment opposite yours on good/evil axis.

Holy strike ACF from CC, ki strike magic -> ki strike holy that deals +1d6 vs. evil targets.

Planar monk sub level 5: lose purity of body, gain energy resistance 5 sonic

AC:
10
+1 size
+9 dex
+3 monk
+16 wisdom (monk)
+16 wisdom (saint)
+5 defending shuriken
+5 ring of deflection
+2 magic circle against evil Su
+3 shou disciple dodge bonus
+1 robe of the vagabond
+1 bracers of armor
+1 dusty rose ioun stone
= 73 AC , 72 Touch AC

(Atropus has +54 slams, pandorym +52 ranged touch, so this now prevents him from hitting on anything but 20s. Also, atropus has no way to catch you if you’re flying, but I’m just being safe.)


Dragon brew: Dragon 301, page 58. 50 gp. +1 alchemical fort save for 1 hour.

Fort save: +17 + 5 cloak +1 con + 2 acf + 1 robe + 1 parrying +1 alchemical +2 great fortitude = 30
Will save: +14 + 16 wis + 5 cloak +2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 39. Passes all saves.
Ref save: +17+ 9 dex + 5 cloak + 2 ACF + 1 robe of the vagabond + 1 parrying= 35.

Domain Draught Pride = 1/400 chance to fail a save if you succeed on 2s.
Unicorn Tattoo = one reroll per day. So more like a 1/8000 chance of failing a save.


Ring of Freedom of Movement: say no to grapples. 40,000
Third eye conceal: 120,000
Domain draught: pride. 3300 per.
Two +5 tomes, 275,000
Two +6 enhancement bonus items, 72,000
Cloak of resistance +5: 25,000
Ring of deflection +5: 50,000
+5 warning shuriken with spellblade keyed to greater dispel magic: 8,560
potion of sheltered vitality: 3000 per (immunity to ability damage and drain)
+1 bracers of armor soulfire 25,000
robe of the vagabond 10,000
dusty rose ioun stone 5,000
belt of great fortitude (A&EG) 10,000

= under 650,000 (around 646,910 if one of each consumable is purchased)



elder evil ACs
atropus, AC: 54, touch 15, flat-footed 42
father llymic, AC 31, touch 11, flat footed 28
female hulks AC 32, touch 8, flat footed 32
male hulk, AC 44, touch 20, flat footed 32
aspect of leviathan, AC 26, touch 2, flat footed 26
pandorym, AC 39, touch 25, flat footed 27, INCORPOREAL
Ragnorra first form, AC 36, touch 7, flat footed 35
True mother cord ACs: 47,42,32.
Aspect of Sertrous, AC 39, touch 9, flat footed 36
The worm that walks, AC 38, touch 30, flat footed 36
Zargon, AC 32, touch 10, flat footed 30

So we have a highest target AC of 54, and highest touch of 30.





2 flaw feats, 3 bonus feats of note*, 7 levels of feats
improved grapple*, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Point blank shot, rapid shot, woodland archer, zen archer, item familiar, knowledge devotion, improved flight (to get you hovering), dodge, endurance*, great fortitude* (from the A&EG belt)

Maneuvers of note:
Shadow Blink, if for some reason you can’t just move somewhere.

Now for his attack routine

Knowledge devotion, nab knowledge the plains for all those outsiders. Pick up collector of stories for a nice +5 to ID these suckers. With item familiar, it’s easy to hit the DC 36 for the top tier bonus vs. outsiders and undead, you have just enough cross class ranks to fill up knowledge(dungeoneering) to land you somewhere in the +2 to +3 area for the aberrations.


12 BAB
+1 size
+16 zen archery
+5 ~~hank’s energy bow (with splitting, magebane, and martial discipline weapon)
-2 rapidshot
+2 magebane
+2 assorted bane arrows (don’t use em against pandorym)
+5 max with knowledge devotion
= +41/+41/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31/+31

bane
1d8 + 4d6 + 7 + however much you power attack for
force (at -2 attack bonus)
4d6 + 7 + power attack


assuming hank’s energy bow is at most a +3 total bonus magic item. Upgrading it to total +6 puts its value at 76,600, the last two are obtained through item familiar free of charge.
bane arrows are cheap, 8,000gp and change for 50.


Total value of items ~ under 740,000. Plenty of space for consumables.








Is there any way to ramp up the damage here? Even if you fully PA, and hit with every attack, you're only averaging 37 points of damage per arrow, about 40% of which will be eaten up by DR. Especially considering regeneration, that seems low for this.

Fitting in a level of Shiba Protector would be another +16 attack and damage, which would help. Going up in size a couple of times would help too, since you're not contingent upon Dex to hit.