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Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:42 AM
This is part of my effort to fix everything in Pathfinder :smallbiggrin:
Here's link to main thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285430)

There are many issues about combat maneuvers system in Pathfinder. Some of them are:
1. CMD is generally becomes too high at later levels.
2. Some maneuvers got nerfed pretty hard.
3. Specializing in combat maneuvers is too feat intensive and has some useless feats.
4. Specializing in combat maneuvers gives not enough bonuses to CMB.

Combat Maneuvers is a major thing, so I'm going to split this into several posts. First I'm going analyze CMB-CMD for PCs and non-PCs at various levels. Then I'll post some ideas about fixing general CMB/CMD progression. And last, (but not least :smallwink:) I'll make some fixes/rebalances to each maneuver.

Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:44 AM
Analysis
There are two types of maneuvers: BAB-based (everything) and skill-based(Feint and Tumble). Technically later two are not maneuvers, but Feint deserves to be one and Tumble (Moving through threatened space from Acrobatics) still deals with opponent's CMD, so I'm going to add them here.

I'm going to compare Fighter's CMB at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 with CMD of typical melee-type opponents for same levels. I'll Also compare Rogue's Acrobatics skill with opponent's CMD.
For fighter's build I assume him starting with 16 Strength, taking Weapon Focus feat and having level appropriate gear.
For rogue's build I assume 16 Dex, max ranks in Acrobatics and 0-ACP armor.

For opponent's CMD I browse NPCs and Monsters by CR sections of
d20PFSRD.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home).

Level 5:
Our Fighter has 17 base Str, no Str-boosting and +1 weapon. He has Weapon Focus feat and Weapon Training I class ability.
His CMB should be:
5 (BAB) + 3(Str) + 1 (weapon bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Weapon Training I) = +11
If he chooses to specialize in a maneuver, he has +2 bonus from Improved [maneuver] feat to a total of +13.

Our Rogue has 5 ranks in acrobatics and 17 Dex. His Thumble check should be:
5(ranks) + 3(bonus) + 3(Dex) = +11
He may have Skill Focus (Acrobatics) which gives him +14.

As for CMD we have:
Monsters:
Ranges between 18 and 27, with majority in 21-23.
NPCs:
Almost every fighter-type NPC has 22. Non-fighters generally have less.

Level 10:
Our Fighter has 18 base Str, +2 Str-boosting equipment and +2 weapon. He has Weapon Focus feat and Weapon Training II class ability.
His CMB should be:
10 (BAB) + 5(Str) + 2 (weapon bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 2 (Weapon Training II) = +20
If he chooses to specialize in a maneuver, he has +4 bonus from [maneuver] feats to a total of +24.

Our Rogue has 10 ranks in acrobatics and 18 Dex and +2 Dex-boosting equipment. His Thumble check should be:
10(ranks) + 3(bonus) + 5(Dex) = +18
He may have Skill Focus (Acrobatics) which gives him +24.
He may also have some magic item that gives him +5 competence bonus to a total of +23/+29.

As for CMD we have:
Monsters:
Part has 29-32, part has 34-35 and some have insane numbers of 37-40. Some others have 28 and less, though.
NPCs:
Almost every fighter-type NPC has 28-30. Non-fighters generally have ~20.

Level 15:
Our Fighter has 19 base Str, +6 Str-boosting equipment and +4 weapon. He has Weapon Focus feat and Weapon Training III class ability.
His CMB should be:
15 (BAB) + 7(Str) + 4 (weapon bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 3 (Weapon Training III) = +30
If he chooses to specialize in a maneuver, he has +4 bonus from [maneuver] feats to a total of +34.

Our Rogue has 15 ranks in acrobatics and 19 Dex and +6 Dex-boosting equipment. His Thumble check should be:
15(ranks) + 3(bonus) + 7(Dex) = +25
He may have Skill Focus (Acrobatics) which gives him +31.
He may also have some magic item that gives him +5 competence bonus to a total of +30/+36.

As for CMD we have:
Monsters:
Almost all reasonable CMDs are 39-43(most of monsters). But there are monsters with CMD 50, 55 and even 68.
NPCs:
Almost every fighter-type NPC has 32-35. Non-fighters generally have ~26 or less.

Level 20:
Our Fighter has 21 base Str, +6 Str-boosting equipment, +5 tome and +5 weapon. He has Weapon Focus feat and Weapon Training IV class ability.
His CMB should be:
20 (BAB) + 11(Str) + 5 (weapon bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 4 (Weapon Training IV) = +41
If he chooses to specialize in a maneuver, he has +4 bonus from [maneuver] feats to a total of +45.

Our Rogue has 20 ranks in acrobatics, 21 Dex +5 tome and +6 Dex-boosting equipment. His Thumble check should be:
20(ranks) + 3(bonus) + 11(Dex) = +34
He may have Skill Focus (Acrobatics) which gives him +40.
He may also have some magic item that gives him +5 competence bonus to a total of +39/+45.

As for CMD we have:
I use here CR 19 and 20 monsters and CR 19 NPC.
Monsters:
There are two types: around 51 and around 56. And bunch of 60+.
NPCs:
Almost every fighter-type NPC has either 41 or 45 CMD. Non-fighters generally have ~35 or less.

Summary
It's actually not so bad for fighter, who specializes in maneuver: at any level he needs something about 11 on d20 to beat most CMDs. However, some of combat maneuvers impose minor cases of MAD. Winning check by 5 is rare and winning by 10 is mostly impossible.

Rogues have really hard time: they actually have to specialize in acrobatics to win their checks and at high levels it is still not enough to reliably beat opponent's CMD. Winning by 10 is impossible.

Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:50 AM
Here are first ideas about general Combat Maneuvers fix:

1. No Agile Maneuvers feat.
FAQ/Errata I found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat) implies you actually don't need it already for half of CM's anyway.
It's functionality should be included into Weapon Finesse feat. We can rename it into Finesse.

2. Total bonus from feats should be +6, not +4. This way maneuvers would be easier to pull of, but not too easy.

3. Total numbers of feats into Improved -> Greater Maneuver should be 2 feats total. This can be achieved through merging this two feats into one, or by removing 'useless gateway feats' like Combat Expertise or Power Attack. Second option is probably better, as it allows also remove ability requirments from maneuvers.

4. Feinting should be a Combat Maneuver. You initiate it as a move action. Improved/Greater Feint should reduce initiation to swift/free action. Skillful classes (like rogue and bard) should have option of counting ranks in Bluff as substitution to BAB.

5. Tumble should be buffed a lot. I currently see 2 options:
1. Base DC is 10+opponent's BAB (no Str, Dex and situational AC bonuses).
2. You add your full BAB as a bonus to Acrobatics check to Tumble.

6. Grapple should be mostly rewritten.
It looks like Grapple receives no bonuses any weapon you have, so it needs to be buffed. There are also should be improvements in grapple mechanics.
Don't really know what to do here. Need some advices/ideas.

Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:52 AM
Reserved #1

Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:55 AM
Reserved #2

Fedorchik
2013-05-30, 12:58 AM
Reserved #3

Karoht
2013-05-30, 10:48 AM
CMB/CMD

Like:
Seems to simplify the manouevers so we aren't looking it up for tens of minutes at a time.

Dislike:
Strength, Dex, and Size are the only relevant statistics. And there are little to no ways to change that. And it something is bigger than you, you are at a noticable disadvantage, or the feat says you are just plain not allowed to use the manouever.

Pushing Assault is an excellent example of doing it right. Requirements? 2 handed weapon and Power Attack. And you have a choice of damage OR triggering the effect.
Felling Smash is an excellent example of doing it less right. More feat intensive (but not too bad), but that is more of a comparative statement when looking at Pushing Assault.

Soras Teva Gee
2013-05-30, 12:03 PM
Assuming this it would seem to me the CMDs (and their formula) are tolerable where they are.

Yes some monsters have huge CMDs. There are also whole entire types of monsters like undead, plants, vermins, and constructs flat immune to entire schools of magic. It only makes sense some monsters will be highly resistant certain moves. And they remain strong against NPCs that aren't full fighters, and even ones that aren't specialists themselves. (Yes something like a mage with preparation can greatly reduce those chances, that has nothing to do with maneuver mechanics though)

This only seems to change at higher levels which most campaigns will never see. Paizo via their levels for APs and PFS rules makes it pretty clear where the game is geared toward playing lower levels then that.

Also before anyone goes too overboard with changes consider them being used against the PCs as well. Also remember that if the fighter types don't have a reasonable chance of beating it then it will cause a great deal of frustration.

Since it uses CMB consider Stand Still (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stand-still-combat---final), which people complain is weak because it only uses "adjacent" not "threatened" and then consider fighting a Huge monster with that, you could very potentially never even start melee and this wouldn't even require an action of the monster. That's not only powerful that is frustrating for everyone that wants to melee.

Also needs to be considered that a straight fighter even with feats is not a maneuver specialist. A Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) is and they get Combat Expertise free, +2-8 CMB/D, and can roll (eventually as a swift action) for +2 competence bonus for more. Manuver Masters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) get a whole bunch of ways to get re-rolls, add their Wis (so +2-6 maybe?) and as Monks can Ki Throw.

While more limited a Ranger and Paladin would add Favored Enemies and Smite Evil bonuses too.

Personally it would seem a better idea to me to add some 3rd Feats to take after the Imp/Greater ones for spice. Maybe ones that will give you a (modest) way to break rules. And maybe delete Combat Expertise or make it a juicer feat.

Fedorchik
2013-06-03, 08:39 AM
Sorry for vanishing. I'm back and going to do more fixing.

Finished my 'analysis' section and posted some ideas in general fix section. Going to add more to individual maneuvers later.



Also needs to be considered that a straight fighter even with feats is not a maneuver specialist. A Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) is and they get Combat Expertise free, +2-8 CMB/D, and can roll (eventually as a swift action) for +2 competence bonus for more. Manuver Masters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) get a whole bunch of ways to get re-rolls, add their Wis (so +2-6 maybe?) and as Monks can Ki Throw.

What I actually don't like about this 2 archetypes is that they are two only viable options to specialize in maneuvers. Also, bonuses Lore Warden receives from losing 2 proficiencies and 1 already useless class feature are too good. I, actually, don't understand why would anyone play base Fighter instead being Lore Warden.

Karoht
2013-06-03, 10:20 AM
Barbarians get a Rage Power to add their Level (in addition to BAB and STR) to a CMB or CMD once per Rage (see Rage Cycling in the Fixin Pathfinder: Barbarians thread) as a nice way to overcome some of those higher CMD numbers. But I don't personally see monsters with High CMD as a problem, merely the limited number of was one can go about boosting CMB/CMD as a player character.

Fedorchik
2013-06-03, 10:56 AM
Barbarians get a Rage Power to add their Level (in addition to BAB and STR) to a CMB or CMD once per Rage (see Rage Cycling in the Fixin Pathfinder: Barbarians thread) as a nice way to overcome some of those higher CMD numbers. But I don't personally see monsters with High CMD as a problem, merely the limited number of was one can go about boosting CMB/CMD as a player character.

Can you please name this power. Because I can't find it.
Anyway, this is why I'm breaking this into many parts - this way someone can spot things like this one.

BTW, maybe someone knows some way to CMB/CMD for Ranger?

Karoht
2013-06-03, 11:12 AM
Strength Surge
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/strength-surge-ex
Good news, once you can Rage Cycle this can and will boost your CMB once per round, or save it for your CMD to prevent a manouver. Combo'd up with things like Knockdown/Knockback is dramatic.

Truthfully, I know very little about Rangers in Pathfinder.

Vadskye
2013-06-03, 11:15 AM
You. I like you. I myself have a fix of Pathfinder's combat maneuvers which hits many of the points you noticed. If you will forgive the use of a PDF, you can see the maneuver rules here (http://kcjohnson.me/Maneuvers.pdf).

The key changes that I made are as follows:

Maneuvers only provoke attacks of opportunity if you fail the maneuver by 10 or more.
If you succeed on a maneuver by 10 or more, you also deal damage with the weapon (or unarmed strike) used to perform the maneuver.
CMB is renamed to Combat Maneuver Attack (CMA).
CMD is defined as being touch AC + BAB + Strength modifier.
The size modifiers are done using the 3.5 numbers, not the Pathfinder numbers.
Grapple is rewritten (again).


And my reasoning is as follows:


Before, the only people who could ever reasonably attempt maneuvers were those who put significant investment into the feats. This makes maneuvers possible for everyone. Keeping in mind that beating CMD usually requires about as much effort as beating AC, you're making an attack roll - and if you succeed, you're usually not even dealing damage! Maneuvers need to be made easier to perform, and this goes a long way to solving that problem. I've run games with this change for about half a year now, and I really like the way it makes combat just a wee bit more lively.
This allows fun things like bull rushing insignificant foes with a warhammer, smacking them aside and still dealing damage. Remember in The Hobbit, in the goblin cave, when the dwarves were smashing the goblins off of the bridges with their hammers? That's what this change is designed to encourage.
CMB and CMD sound really bloody similar, and my players and I kept confusing them when talking. CMA sounds much different - and it clarifies that a combat maneuver is literally an attack, with all that that implies.
This is just a much easier and more consistent definition of CMD than the original one, which specified all of the bonuses that apply to it.
I just can't mentally justify the idea that a Large creature only gets a +1 bonus relative to a Medium creature. The big guy is twice as tall and about eight times the body weight - and this gives him a +1 bonus on bull rush checks? That's dumb. The system can be balanced around these numbers, and internal consistency of the world is extremely important to me. Maybe no fighters except the most ludicrously epic can trip a Colossal dragon. That's okay! That's not a flaw in the system - that's a feature.
This definition of the grapple rules should be a little easier and more intuitive, I hope. Let me know what you think.



The feats are more brief, so I will reproduce them here. Essentially, each grants a +2 bonus with the maneuver and gives a special ability unique to the maneuver:


Improved Bull Rush [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: When you perform a bull rush, you do not need to move with the target to move them back. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on bull rush attacks.

Improved Dirty Trick [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: The conditions imposed by your dirty tricks last for 1d4 rounds. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on dirty trick attacks.

Improved Disarm [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: When you disarm an opponent, the weapon can land up to 15 feet away in a random direction. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on disarm attacks.

Improved Feint [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: You can feint in combat as a move action, and you gain a +4 competence bonus to feint attacks.
Normal: Feinting in combat is an attack action.

Improved Grapple [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: While in a grapple, you may make grapple checks as an attack action. You also gain a +4 competence bonus on grapple attacks and to your CMD against grapple attacks.
Normal: While in a grapple, you make grapple attacks as a standard action. A monk may select Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Improved Overrun [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you unless you let them. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on overrun attacks.
Normal: Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.

Improved Sunder [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: When you strike at an object held or carried by an opponent (such as a weapon or shield), you ignore half the hardness of the sundered item. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on sunder attacks.

Improved Trip [Combat Maneuver]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3
Benefit: When you trip a foe, it immediately provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone around him, including you. These attacks are made as the creature is being tripped, so it does not have penalties for being prone. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on trip attacks.

(Note: Standing from prone no longer provokes attacks of opportunity in my system; if it did, I would have to change Improved Trip's granted ability.)


Let me know what you think.

Soras Teva Gee
2013-06-03, 12:03 PM
What I actually don't like about this 2 archetypes is that they are two only viable options to specialize in maneuvers. Also, bonuses Lore Warden receives from losing 2 proficiencies and 1 already useless class feature are too good. I, actually, don't understand why would anyone play base Fighter instead being Lore Warden.

Lore Warden's are made of win and more win, no doubt about that. I think that has to do with more then their maneuver excellence.

Its part of pointing out I don't think messing with the formulas is called for since it could quickly go off the deep end.

Right now you estimate a broad baseline for a fighter at +30 for level 15 which means they will reach 40 CMD with an 10 roll right in the middle of your "most" monster range. Add a Lore Warden (+8) and to hit 45 on your CMB and be outside that range you need only a 7+ roll. With a specialty it become a 3+. For a non-monster its already "just don't drop your weapon" levels.

Now take that kind of roll and let it go all over the field with enlarge person, lunge, and a reach weapon. Now try to beat it with your modestly typical THF damage monster. Oops disarmed your sword, oops now your tripped, now here's some damage. Get up get tripped again on your move and I'll just keep 5' around to ensure you have to. Better hope I don't have Pin Down so you can withdraw and run to momma like a little girl.

Now I'm not saying that the Lore Warden should hold things back, at worst the Lore Warden is OPed and needs a trim to account for it. Just how quickly maneuvers can go from reasonable options to damn irritating cheese for anyone not using it.

Nakun
2013-06-03, 12:41 PM
I really like Vadskye's suggestion of using touch AC instead of AC for calculating CMD. I'm not thinking too much about what that does to the numbers, but thematically that makes sense.

Something else you might consider is making feinting and tumbling "skill tricks." I think there was something about gaining special combat abilities from a certain amount of skill ranks/ special training in Complete Adventurer.
This would make it so that the maneuvers that don't use BAB aren't maneuvers, but are something else and have a different system (although that might make stream-lining more of a problem.)

Reverent-One
2013-06-03, 12:44 PM
I'm with Soras on the numbers. I think you've demonstrated that they're pretty solid where they are given a baseline fighter like your example. Auto-hit on some enemies, decent odds (needing a 8 - 12 ish) on what sounds like a decent chunk, if not majority, of enemies, with only some being really hard if not impossible. In addition to a character really specializing as Soras has mentioned, we also need to take into account that there are more situational modifiers that are not uncommon in practice, things like flanking, buffs from spellcasters, or debuffs on the enemy that affect CMD.


I really like Vadskye's suggestion of using touch AC instead of AC for calculating CMD. I'm not thinking too much about what that does to the numbers, but thematically that makes sense.


Unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty much the exact same thing. Though it would be beneficial since it clearly includes all the misc modifiers to AC that also apply to CMD (basically everything that's not Armor, Shield, or Natural Armor). That's something that can get missed when reading the rules.

Karoht
2013-06-03, 01:35 PM
Slight question that should probably be in the Pathfinder questions thread, but since it is relevant to this discussion on CMB/CMD I will ask it here.

It is my understanding that anything that affects attack rolls will affect CMB/CMD. Does that mean that a debuff that affects attack rolls also (negatively) affects CMB/CMD?

I ask because with debuffs worked into the math, an average fighter is looking to have a much better chance at causing a maneouver to succeed.

Also: Flanking, does it boost CMB as well?

Vadskye
2013-06-03, 01:45 PM
Anything which affects attack rolls affects CMB, not CMD.

Essentially anything which affects AC affects CMD, not CMB (though this is more confusingly worded than it should be.)

Reverent-One
2013-06-03, 01:48 PM
Slight question that should probably be in the Pathfinder questions thread, but since it is relevant to this discussion on CMB/CMD I will ask it here.

It is my understanding that anything that affects attack rolls will affect CMB/CMD. Does that mean that a debuff that affects attack rolls also (negatively) affects CMB/CMD?

I ask because with debuffs worked into the math, an average fighter is looking to have a much better chance at causing a maneouver to succeed.

Also: Flanking, does it boost CMB as well?

Yes for CMB, from the rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Bonus):


When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

Similarly pretty much any bonus or penalty to AC you have affects your CMD as well.


A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

As you point out, this does make a difference.

Karoht
2013-06-03, 02:22 PM
Interesting. As I suspected, chances are that I've lost proper track of both sets of numbers once buffs and equipment got involved.

But to clarify something.
A Ring of Protection +5 boosts AC as well as CMD?
Well snot, why the hell doesn't it just say +5 Deflection Bonus to AC/CMD for pete's sake?

Reverent-One
2013-06-03, 02:36 PM
I would assume not wanting to look for and change everything that gives a relevant bonus to AC. Not a terribly good reason, but it's the most likely thing I can think of.

Fedorchik
2013-06-03, 03:31 PM
Right now you estimate a broad baseline for a fighter at +30 for level 15 which means they will reach 40 CMD with an 10 roll right in the middle of your "most" monster range. Add a Lore Warden (+8) and to hit 45 on your CMB and be outside that range you need only a 7+ roll. With a specialty it become a 3+. For a non-monster its already "just don't drop your weapon" levels.

Now take that kind of roll and let it go all over the field with enlarge person, lunge, and a reach weapon. Now try to beat it with your modestly typical THF damage monster. Oops disarmed your sword, oops now your tripped, now here's some damage. Get up get tripped again on your move and I'll just keep 5' around to ensure you have to. Better hope I don't have Pin Down so you can withdraw and run to momma like a little girl.

Now I'm not saying that the Lore Warden should hold things back, at worst the Lore Warden is OPed and needs a trim to account for it. Just how quickly maneuvers can go from reasonable options to damn irritating cheese for anyone not using it.
Yes, this is bothering me too. But right now I'm pretty sure this is all due too Lore Warden being just too good in Combat Maneuvers all along. There are actually things to nerf in mundanes department! :smallbiggrin:
I'm also thinking about adding something to improve your CMD without increasing CMB.
Anyway, I'll make some actual calculations to see it in numbers.

BTW, there one more thing to check. Being Large gives you +1 to CMB/CMD. It also gives you -1 penalty on your attack roll. Penalties to attack rolls are applied to CMB. So, basically, being Large gives you +1 CMD and +0 CMB. Am I right here?

I'm with Soras on the numbers. I think you've demonstrated that they're pretty solid where they are given a baseline fighter like your example. Auto-hit on some enemies, decent odds (needing a 8 - 12 ish) on what sounds like a decent chunk, if not majority, of enemies, with only some being really hard if not impossible. In addition to a character really specializing as Soras has mentioned, we also need to take into account that there are more situational modifiers that are not uncommon in practice, things like flanking, buffs from spellcasters, or debuffs on the enemy that affect CMD.

I am actually aiming to numbers around 6-10 for success vs OK to CM monsters and 11-15 vs hard ones. It's not because I love maneuvers that much, it's because by that levels we often see +24 attack rolls on fighter versus ~26 AC monsters.
Actually, maybe I'm just wrong here.



Let me know what you think.
This is basically the same I'm trying to do here. I just try to make it something like 'do it yourself' kit with different options. (This is, probably, a dumb thing since it takes awfully lot of time from me.)
I also try to do it so it would minimally affect things we have already printed so you don't have to recalculate every single stat block from things like published adventures or open content (like PathfinderSRD).



A Ring of Protection +5 boosts AC as well as CMD?

Yes, it does. But amulet of natural armor +5 gives you +0 to CMD and occupies more 'pricey' slot. And yet they cost the same.



Well snot, why the hell doesn't it just say +5 Deflection Bonus to AC/CMD for pete's sake?
Probably lazy editing.

Vadskye
2013-06-03, 04:24 PM
BTW, there one more thing to check. Being Large gives you +1 to CMB/CMD. It also gives you -1 penalty on your attack roll. Penalties to attack rolls are applied to CMB. So, basically, being Large gives you +1 CMD and +0 CMB. Am I right here?
Not quite. Being Large gives you -1 attack and -1 AC. However, Pathfinder implicitly disregards size modifiers to attack rolls and CMD; you can see that from examining the troll (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/troll.html#_ice-troll-cr-4). Note how his CMB and CMD are only possible if you ignore the size penalties and only use the size bonus.


I am actually aiming to numbers around 6-10 for success vs OK to CM monsters and 11-15 vs hard ones. It's not because I love maneuvers that much, it's because by that levels we often see +24 attack rolls on fighter versus ~26 AC monsters.
Actually, maybe I'm just wrong here.
One thing to keep in mind is that CMD needs to be higher than AC. A good guiding principle for a system is that 50% of your attacks should succeed. That means that, if you have multiple attacks, your first attack should be extremely likely to succeed (which it is!). However, maneuvers are often not performed with iterative attacks, but instead as standard actions. In other words, a +15 CMB should have a lower probability of beating an "average" monster's CMD than a +15 attack bonus would have of beating an "average" monster's AC. This means CMD needs to be higher. This is compounded if you keep the very high modifiers from the Improved/Greater feats; that means CMD needs to be substantially higher than AC to prevent auto-success.


This is basically the same I'm trying to do here. I just try to make it something like 'do it yourself' kit with different options. (This is, probably, a dumb thing since it takes awfully lot of time from me.)
What do you mean?


Yes, it does. But amulet of natural armor +5 gives you +0 to CMD and occupies more 'pricey' slot. And yet they cost the same.
Magic items are really screwy, and Pathfinder didn't really change that. I wouldn't advise thinking about them too hard unless you really want to rewrite a lot. (If you do, let me know - I've been working on that for a while)