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Yora
2013-05-30, 03:23 AM
Leaving aside all the countless ways to shot fire and lightning, what do you think are the mostessential and basic spells that every magic system should include, if it is aimed at being somewhat generic, unlike for example the Force from Star Wars or Biotics from Mass Effect?

- Fire, lightning, and ice spells
- Invisibility
- Damage healing
- See magic auras
- Increased Strength
- Paralysis
- Fear
- Light
- Charge weapons
- Magic shield against weapons
- Summon monster
- Hypnosis (implant orders)
- Restore poison damage, life drain, etc.

Anything else that you would add, that you would be really missing if a game did not have something like it?

VeliciaL
2013-05-30, 04:08 AM
The only thing that comes immediately to mind is teleportation effects. Whether it's short-range blink type abilities or long range teleporting doorways, that does seem to be a fantasy staple.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 04:15 AM
I actually like my Magic subtle, in most worlds. So, I'll just say mental influence and subtle Divination-like sensory effects, such as finding living creatures, sensing certain elements, feeling Magic, predicting the weather...

Curses, maybe, if they are subtle.

Elemental effects are rarely all that much fun and they don't fit many worlds.

Kitten Champion
2013-05-30, 04:30 AM
Although it could be consider damage restoration, commonly a resurrection spell is separate and more costly to discourage overuse and make death less trivial.

Usually there are spells to increase speed or make transportation faster within and between settings. Flight, mounts, teleportation, etc. In addition, temporal magic, like haste, slow, or stop. To use movement speed and/or reduced reaction times to one's benefit.

Spells or magic items to produce elemental immunity are pretty common. Weather control, water-breathing, heat shields, poison resistance, etc. As a means of defending against magic or to surmount obstacles while exploring.

Dispel magic spells in general.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 05:00 AM
I'd like more involved antimagic rules. Two casters really throwing their will and might against each other.

HuskyBoi
2013-05-30, 05:11 AM
I'd actually argue that there ARE no essential fields, since you can really change the 'type' of magic system by simply removing access to certain spells. For example, in one campaign I played, I ruled that the legion evil spellcasters would have no access to healing spells- not just that they had no spellcasters capable of using it, but that they simply weren't away healing magic existed (being from an isolated culture). It's an idea I shamefully stole from Trudy Canavan's books, but it completely redefines the combat tactics that this particular culture uses.

Similarly, what would a race who couldn't use teleportation spells be like, or evocations, or divination? By extrapolating from this initial choice, you can really start to create a different breed of spellcaster.

That said, I realise this isn't what the question is really about, so I'd say the essential fields are: direct damage, a way to negate/block it, telekinesis, and divination. lllusions are also way too much fun to leave out!

Grinner
2013-05-30, 05:49 AM
Personally, I like it when these things, if they must be present, can adapted for different uses rather than being discrete, unalterable actions. (i.e. the wizard's Maximized Empowered Expunge-All-Life-In-A-Twenty-Mile-Radius Fireball can be dialed back for, say, lighting a cigarette.) It does place a heavy emphasis on magic, but easy magic undermines so many common assumptions anyway.

Waar
2013-05-30, 06:14 AM
Creativity, if a system would not let my PC use its supernatural Powers in a creative way i would be disapointed :smallwink:

prufock
2013-05-30, 06:38 AM
There are a few spells I think of as essential.

1. <Area/target> of <Damage Type> (usually save for half)
2. Remove Damage
2. Impose <Condition> (usually save negates)
3. Remove <Condition> (no save, harmless)
4. Boost <Trait> (buff spells, no save)
5. Weaken <Trait> (debuff spells, often save negates)
6. Create/Summon <X>
7. <Movement type> (such as teleport, flight, etc)
8. <Utility> (for all your other spell needs)

Yora
2013-05-30, 07:22 AM
@Grinner and Waar: The system I am toying with is based heavily on spell points and the psionic augmentation options from the XPH. Creative versatility is the primary goal.

Antimagic in d20 games is a real pain. Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are the two I am having the most trouble with. They need to be simple enough that every player can use them on the first day they play the game. Without consulting a flowchart.

Some people have mentioned divinations.
That's a very broad field, yet I have a hard time with identifying what the primary forms of it are. D&D has lots of them, but what would be the main forms in which they appear in fiction and other games?

Eldan
2013-05-30, 08:30 AM
I'm thinking of Gandalf types here.

You enter the Evil Forest of Terrible Doominess and Grim Darkness. Your mage stops and says "There's something evil afoot here!"

That, for me, is the basic type of Divination. Everything else comes later.

Jay R
2013-05-30, 08:36 AM
An essential spell would be a spell used by all of Merlin, Gandalf, Circe, Gwydion, Baba Yaga, Medea, Archimago, and Prospero.

I conclude that there are no essential spells. Build a magic system however you like, and the players will find ways to use it.

Scots Dragon
2013-05-30, 08:38 AM
For me, it's the core concept of transmutation. Early myths made a great deal out of magic-users and gods being able to change their shape, and to change the shape of others. The most classical examples of this are Circe transforming men into beasts, or the curse that transforms a prince into a frog.

Magic is change.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 08:44 AM
And of course The Oldest Game.

Yeah. I'd say Divination, Transmutation and Curses, as very general concepts are the Basic requirement. I can't think of a single mythological example of anyone throwing fireballs around. Lightning also only from gods.

Radar
2013-05-30, 08:44 AM
Seals, wards, binding rituals, creation of wonderous item and/or creatures (be it alive, undead or constructs).

In general there should be a way to spend more time and resources to achieve greater goals. This is both for mechanical and narrative benefits. It allows creation of secure places (be it a tower of a powerful wizard or a well guarded sanctuary of a local community), explains were all the plot-important magical doodads came from, gives motivation for characters (let's say someone is in search for a specific rare plant or an extraordinary gemstone, which he needs to complete an important spell).

Without such mechanics it would be difficult to explain, why the evil cult leader gathered all the minions and is hoarding newt eyes and wax candles.

endoperez
2013-05-30, 08:59 AM
For a D&D-style game, I'd look into three different categories.


1) Spells intended for dealing with normal combat and its aftereffects:
damage, buffs, debuffs healing magic, removing debuffs, restricting mobility/options available to enemies, giving allies more meaningful options.

The last two are buffs/debuffs that do more than just change the numbers. Stuff like Wraithstrike, invisibility, flying, silence, ability to go ethereal etc.

2) Spells intended to help the players with things that would otherwise be handled by non-combat skills, enhancing skill rolls or replacing them.
Recovery, restoration, safety, transport, comfort, social situations, summoning a mount, charming a person, opening locked doors.

3) Things casters can do to advance or solve the story/adventure, mostly outside of combat. These are spells that aren't useful in the players' everyday adventuring life, but will be able to solve specific situations that only crop up rarely. These situations would be very problematic without magic.

This is the kind of magic that is solved by a quest, in most fantasy stories, but is solved by a caster casting a single spell, in D&D. For example, if a drought is ruining a kingdom, the adventurers start questing for a way to control weather. In D&D, the druid casts Weather Control.

Weather control. Resurrection. Opening a portal to a different dimension. Cursing a village so that every person inside it turns into an animal for a full year. Create a simulacrum, a clone or something similar. Permanently polymorph something into something else. Repairing a broken artifact.



Drawing the line between 2 and 3 is going to depend heavily on how the system works, but personally, I'd like to see a system where players had easy access to categories 1 and 2, but stuff from category 3 would be more limited.

Yora
2013-05-30, 09:07 AM
I'd be very careful with anything in category 2 and 3. They are the main reason why there are Tier 1 classes in D&D.

(And also the reason why I think there is need for a new d20 magic system.)

Eldan
2013-05-30, 09:25 AM
Well, yeah. But they are really also the only reason Magic is interesting at all. At least to me. If you take those out, Magic is just another way of hitting someone with a weapon.

Grinner
2013-05-30, 09:49 AM
Suggestion: Merlin, Gandalf, Circe, Gwydion, Baba Yaga, Medea, Archimago, and Prospero are all magicians, but they're all very different from one another.

The Tier 1 classes are only like that because they have so many spells available to them, which collectively cover the gamut of abilities. Not much separates one generalist wizard from a specialist, despite being nominally completely different.

So, the natural solution to that problem seems to be diversification. Create a number of magical traditions, each unique and completely disparate. Narrow down what a spellcaster can and cannot do. The Circle of Deanas may host powerful songstresses, but the Yegnor's Brotherhood holds the Secret of Souls.

Friv
2013-05-30, 09:55 AM
Count me in the "There are no such thing as essential spells" camp.

What abilities and scope your magic system has is something that says a lot about the setting that you're creating. One system might work brilliantly with every spell being based on altering luck and glimpsing the future, while another one might rely entirely on summoning beings from beyond the world to do your will. Both could be excellent fantasy systems, and they wouldn't share a single spell.

Sylthia
2013-05-30, 10:52 AM
I'd add mind control effects and enchantments to the list. Flying as well.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 11:08 AM
Thinking about it, the oldest magic is probably sympathetic magic, which is rarely, if ever, properly supported in roleplaying games. You should do more in that direction, if you can find fitting mechanics for it.

Grinner
2013-05-30, 11:34 AM
Thinking about it, the oldest magic is probably sympathetic magic, which is rarely, if ever, properly supported in roleplaying games. You should do more in that direction, if you can find fitting mechanics for it.

I think game designers avoid this because its difficult to quantify fairly and kind of falls outside of the "standard" RPG conventions. Let's say you get a tuft of hair, or even a drop of blood. Can you use that to place a death curse on the character? How does this affect gameplay? And how do you employ that in-combat?

It works well for certain kinds of games, but it also tends to hinder others, like high fantasy ones.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 11:44 AM
Probably not something you'll use in combat often. Though you could probably do something with targeting. Targeting a part of a creature is like targeting that creature, that has combat applications. Or making sympathetic spells harder to resist.

Barsoom
2013-05-30, 11:57 AM
Leaving aside all the countless ways to shot fire and lightning, what do you think are the mostessential and basic spells that every magic system should include, if it is aimed at being somewhat generic, unlike for example the Force from Star Wars or Biotics from Mass Effect?

- Fire, lightning, and ice spells
- Invisibility
- Damage healing
- See magic auras
- Increased Strength
- Paralysis
- Fear
- Light
- Charge weapons
- Magic shield against weapons
- Summon monster
- Hypnosis (implant orders)
- Restore poison damage, life drain, etc.

Anything else that you would add, that you would be really missing if a game did not have something like it?I must admit I didn't read all the replies, so possibly these were already mentioned.

- Divinations and scrying ("mirror mirror on the wall")
- Teleportation and other mobility tricks
- Alternate shape and polymorphing
- Illusions and phantasms

endoperez
2013-05-30, 12:06 PM
I think game designers avoid this because its difficult to quantify fairly and kind of falls outside of the "standard" RPG conventions. Let's say you get a tuft of hair, or even a drop of blood. Can you use that to place a death curse on the character? How does this affect gameplay? And how do you employ that in-combat?

It works well for certain kinds of games, but it also tends to hinder others, like high fantasy ones.

Ars Magica uses those kinds of connections. A blood or a lock of hair is a relatively good connection, as the connection stays good for months or years after separated from the original body. This sort of connection is required to cast spells that do not require line of sight (a slight simplification, but good enough). A spell using an arcane connection is of a higher level than similar spell that does not use an arcane connection. If Phantasmal Killer is a level 4 spell, then a version that could be cast from far away by destroying a lock of the target's hair would be a level 5 or 6 spell.

Also in ArsM, When a spell is targeted at someone who can resist against it, the arcane connection and other sympatethic connections the caster can utilize help to penetrate through the resistance. Signatures, horoscopes, names... Yes, you might want to make the dragon's daily horoscope before fighting it! :smallbiggrin: And that's one way sympatethic magic could be used in fights.


How would this affect magic? It could be used to make long-distance magic harder, if so desired. It could also force the players to do additional preparations whenever they are going against a tough enemy. If they couldn't get anything before the fight, then perhaps the wizards would want to save their biggest spells until the frontliners have dealt damage to the enemy and drawn blood. That actually sounds pretty cool!

puctheplayfull
2013-05-30, 12:48 PM
[I]Some people have mentioned divinations.
That's a very broad field, yet I have a hard time with identifying what the primary forms of it are. D&D has lots of them, but what would be the main forms in which they appear in fiction and other games?

Detection spells to help you locate or observe something are among the most common I think. Consider the staples: Detect Magic and Detect Evil, and go from there with any kind of detection or locating spell. After detection spells, you have spells that affect your actual senses, like Darkvision and True Seeing, usually granting you senses you didn't have, or enhancing your senses beyond normal (enter preferred race here) ability. Next comes the spells that let you observe things in other locations like clairaudience and clairvoyance, and building from those you reach spells that let you see through time, as in pre- and postcognition and similar effects. Lastly, there are spells that provide direct information about something: an object, a place, a potential course of action. These are spells like Augury, or Identify, and seem to be a blend of some of the other forms, or involve getting answers from an other worldly being or disembodied spirit.

With the exception of some form of Detect Magic spell/ability, there doesn't seem to be a standard or essential set of divination spells for magic systems. In human history, divination was one of the most commonly practiced forms of magic, usually with the purpose of predicting the future or locating something/someone/someplace. In any world where big flashy magic is real, someone will have undoubtedly tried to create magic like this, but it's up to you if they succeed or fail. As so many have already said, a magic system should be largely defined on the setting/fluff, and the 'look and feel' you are trying to convey in your setting rather than a set of essential effects or spells you have to have.

Deepbluediver
2013-05-30, 01:07 PM
Leaving aside all the countless ways to shot fire and lightning, what do you think are the most essential and basic spells that every magic system should include, if it is aimed at being somewhat generic, unlike for example the Force from Star Wars or Biotics from Mass Effect?

- Fire, lightning, and ice spells
- Invisibility
- Damage healing
- See magic auras
- Increased Strength
- Paralysis
- Fear
- Light
- Charge weapons
- Magic shield against weapons
- Summon monster
- Hypnosis (implant orders)
- Restore poison damage, life drain, etc.

Anything else that you would add, that you would be really missing if a game did not have something like it?

Are necromantic or golem-like creations included in the "Summon monster" heading? This might be easier if you used more general headings.

Things like-

Blasting/Energy-based spells (including light and maybe acid damage)
Healing and Restoration, including raising the dead
Ways to alter perceptions, senses, and mental thought processes (to either fool or enhance, so including divinations and enchantments)
Alteration (bodies and objects)
Minion Control
Status Effects (buffs and debuffs, fear, blind, etc)
Teleportation and interplaner travel

Mastikator
2013-05-30, 01:40 PM
Flying on brooms,
having visions via crystal balls/ponds/mirrors
turning things into other things
turning things into stone
love spell / charm effect
shooting lightning or fire (usually reserved for the more powerful magic users)
summoning monsters
long distance communication via dreams or visions
out of body travel/espionage
teleportation (also reserved for the more powerful magic users)

Grinner
2013-05-30, 03:02 PM
*snip*

Ars Magica is a very good example of when sympathetic magic is appropriate, seeing as how the primary player characters tend to spend a significant portion of their time holed up inside their labs. Since they tend not to leave their keeps, getting components for sympathetic magic is actually a reasonable challenge.

Unknown Armies also has a pretty good system for sympathetic magic. Since only people who have been Tilted before can work Tilt rituals, it can't be used unless the DM specifically incorporates it. Even then, it's only able to alter probabilities and nothing else.

D&D is a very poor example of when sympathetic magic is appropriate. Since most of the players spend much of their time getting cut up, procuring sympathetic items is very, very easy for the BBEG. After getting a few drops of blood, there's generally little reason for him to tolerate the PCs anymore.

Eldan
2013-05-30, 04:01 PM
It's not for D&D, though. Yora said its for a new system. So, how much combat there will be is up in the air.

LokiRagnarok
2013-06-01, 04:34 PM
No strictly essentials, but have you considered pocket dimensions? Or spells that change weight, size, momentum etc of items?

Yora
2013-06-01, 05:04 PM
Personally, considered and flat out discarded.

But they are indeed kind of a major staple of magic systems.

Kane0
2013-06-02, 07:15 PM
I suppose I'll just suggest types, seems a little more applicable.

Healing/raising the dead
-Transport
-Damage/injury
-Creating/animating/summoning
-Buffing/debuffing
-Shapechanging
-Divination
-Protection
-Mind tricks
-Other/Utility (invisibility, wards, water breathing, etc)

erikun
2013-06-04, 01:44 AM
I will agree with others who have stated that there are no essential spells for a magic system.

A magic system where all spells are illusions, and where stronger spells gradually become more capable of creating actual physical changes to reality, will be quite different from a fire-ice-lightning system. A magic system based on the four elements is quite different from one involving dispel magic or ritual casting. A system with priests of different faiths getting spells and magic gifts based on their individual parton is quite different from one with wizards who can study and organize magic research into schooling.

That said, if you want just a common list of "spells", I think it would include most of these:


ranged damage attack, typically fireball or lightning
some way to create fire, for starting a campfire (such as a weak fireball)
magical ward against physical attacks (Mage Armor)
magical ward against magical effects (think Circle of Protection)
means of detecting magical creatures and effects (Detect Magic and/or See Invisibility, although perhaps not that convenient)
flight, or some method to easily move from point A to point B
invisibility, or some magical means of obscuration (anything from literal Invisibility to shadow manipulation to Hypnotic Pattern)
healing
curing afflictions
raising the dead (likely quiet difficult)
summoning creatures and/or animating objects (Unseen Servant/Animate Objects, although not necessarily stronger than that)
means of creating magically-enhanced weapons, either temporarily or permanently
cursing, charming, or manipulating fate
enthrallment (very strong and/or long term magic)
necromancy
"local" divination (meaning seeing down the hallway, viewing what had happened in the past, speaking with the dead, and so on)
changing the appearance of a person, thing, or area
transforming something into something else
transportation between one location and another (meaning planar travel)


A few more powerful (read: legendary) types of spells might involve completely changing the "Fates" of a character (basically re-writing history about them), obtaining the powers and becoming the avatar of a deity, transporting landmasses between dimensions, and so on. These would be the equilivant of 10th level epic spells, and so shouldn't be something your average adventurer even encounters, much less casts regularly.

Also, I would recommend bags of holding if you plan on characters needing to cart around large amounts of stuff (including gold). It just becomes awkward and annoying to keep track of ten swords and 500 different arrows when the game seems to ask you to truck them around regularly.