Magic arrow damage stacking with magic bow, why not?

[pbdr]

I know that these are similar bonuses and not allowed due to stacking rules. so, that's not what I'm looking for.

My thought was, would it unbalance an archer character to have the damage bonus from magic arrows stack with bow enhancement bonus?

Bad idea, good idea, indifferent?

[KillianHawkeye]

That's how they did it in 3E. I don't have a lot of first hand experience with archery and magic weapons from back in 3E, but for whatever reason they decided to change it when they upgraded the system to 3.5 edition.

[Darrin]

Bad idea, good idea, indifferent?

Good idea. Archery gets hosed worse than melee, and they can use a damage buff.

[KillianHawkeye]

Good idea. Archery gets hosed worse than melee, and they can use a damage buff.

It's not just damage. It would also affect attack rolls.

[Chronos]

The downside to them not stacking is that it makes magic arrows somewhat pointless, since you can just enchant your bow for the same effect on all of your arrows. The upside to them not stacking is that it makes magic arrows somewhat pointless, so there's one less resource that you have to worry about managing. Whenever I end up with anything like magic arrows, I always end not using them, because I always save them in case a situation comes up where I need them even more.

[pbdr]

It's not just damage. It would also affect attack rolls.

If I house rule that they stack, I would only allow damage to stack.

Possibly even make it that arrow enhancements only add to damage, not to hit (but the cost would stay the same and you get to stack damage).

[Kudaku]

One benefit of this ruling is that the utility quiver is a thing.

Get a plain +5 bow, add +1 holy arrows, enjoy your +5 holy bow damage at a fraction of the cost. at a decent discount :smallsmile:
This is also quite nice with +1 Bane arrows.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I'd say no;

Generally I'd go for a +5 whatever bow with a bunch of +1 something arrows, so I'd effectively be firing a bunch of +5 Something Whatever arrows, having the enhancement bonuses stack for damage would be, +4 damage per arrow? Adding flaming/frost/shocking etc instead adds around 3.5 damage discounting immunities or resistances (which are easily bypassed by having a variety of arrows) and is a lot cheaper, only adding +1 to the cost of the arrow rather than +4

[Chained Birds]

One benefit of this ruling is that the utility quiver is a thing.

Get a plain +5 bow, add +1 holy arrows, enjoy your +5 holy bow damage at a fraction of the cost. at a decent discount :smallsmile:
This is also quite nice with +1 Bane arrows.

I thought this was already a thing? :smallconfused:

[pbdr]

I'd say no;

Generally I'd go for a +5 whatever bow with a bunch of +1 something arrows, so I'd effectively be firing a bunch of +5 Something Whatever arrows, having the enhancement bonuses stack for damage would be, +4 damage per arrow? Adding flaming/frost/shocking etc instead adds around 3.5 damage discounting immunities or resistances (which are easily bypassed by having a variety of arrows) and is a lot cheaper, only adding +1 to the cost of the arrow rather than +4

The difference between what I propose and what is RAW currently in the above scenario is +1 damage per arrow. The "something" still works regardless of stacking.

So in RAW (no damage stacking) you get +5 damage + "something". If the damage bonus stacks you +6 damage + "something"....

[Kudaku]

I thought this was already a thing? :smallconfused:

Indeed it is. However if you let arrows stack with the bow most people will be using +3 arrows and a +4 bow, or whatever is most cost efficient. The utility quiver would potentially go the way of the dodo and the windup alarm clock.

[Sutremaine]

I don't see the problem. You paid for the +1, even if you didn't really want it for your specialty Bane or [Alignment] arrows, so why not get to use it?

Given the power level of archery in 3.5, I also don't see the problem with allowing +2 arrows with a +2 bow instead of having a +4 arrow or a +4 bow. If you fixed that you could allow only +1 of the arrow's enhancement bonus to stack, but it seems a lot of bookkeeping for very little enhancement of the game.

[Turion]

Indeed it is. However if you let arrows stack with the bow most people will be using +3 arrows and a +4 bow, or whatever is most cost efficient. The utility quiver would potentially go the way of the dodo and the windup alarm clock.

Actually, the most efficient is a +1 bow with +1 arrows, each with +9 worth of enhancements and a casting of Greater Magic Weapon. +10 to-hit and damage, with +18 enhancements?

Also, you still need the utility quiver; different materials for penetrating DR, different sorts of Bane arrows, etc...


The downside to them not stacking is that it makes magic arrows somewhat pointless, since you can just enchant your bow for the same effect on all of your arrows. The upside to them not stacking is that it makes magic arrows somewhat pointless, so there's one less resource that you have to worry about managing. Whenever I end up with anything like magic arrows, I always end not using them, because I always save them in case a situation comes up where I need them even more.

I generally prefer my arrows to have points, so I wouldn't exactly call pointlessness an upside...

[Crake]

Actually, the most efficient is a +1 bow with +1 arrows, each with +9 worth of enhancements and a casting of Greater Magic Weapon. +10 to-hit and damage, with +18 enhancements?

except +9 worth of enhancements would require caster level 27 to pull off, so good luck with that. Best you could do pre-epic is +6 worth of enchantments at caster level 18

[DeltaEmil]

Turion rather refers to the +9 being made up of magic weapon special abilities, like flaming, shocking, cold, bane, distance, and so on, for a total of +9. The enhancement bonus of the weapon itself would only be a +1, which necessitates a caster level of 3.

The +10 enhancement bonus to hit would come from casting Greater Magic Weapon on both the weapon, and the ammunition, which both would get a +5 enhancement bonus to hit, and which under the proposed house-rule would stack to become a +10 bonus to hit with a bonus of 10 damage.

[Turion]

except +9 worth of enhancements would require caster level 27 to pull off, so good luck with that. Best you could do pre-epic is +6 worth of enchantments at caster level 18

Um, could I get a page citation on that? Because, it goes against what I'd heard before, and the DMG indicates (table 7-9, p.222) that you can have up to a +10 weapon (with a maximum enhancement bonus of +5) pre-epic. (as a side-note, CL27 is trivial with a number of builds :smalltongue: )

*edit: serves me right for not checking before I post. DeltaEmil has it right; that is what I meant. Sorry for being unclear.

[pbdr]

I think this is what I will decide to do.

Ammunition enhancements effect damage only and stack with weapon enhancement bonuses.

Since ammo is expendable and inherently fragile (i.e. single use), there is a maximum of +3 total enhancement value pre-epic. (in my games PCs aren't going to be getting their hands on +1 arrows, of shock, flame, bane, and frost in any event, but this codifies it).

It gives the archer a boost to damage output, but should keep things from getting out of hand.

[Seharvepernfan]

I think they made the change because of how high attack-bonuses and damage bonuses can get. They feared that an archer could always hit and always do tons of damage, from virtually any distance. A fully decked out bow with fully decked out arrows in a manyshot...can do retarded amounts of damage.

That said, in my houserules, I let them stack, because yes, archers can use a bit more damage, and the stacking bonuses don't really come into play until higher levels, which is where archers need the most help anyway.