Need some quick Strategy Tips on Spellgaunt

[CaladanMoonblad]

So, the Spellgaunt from Monster Manual II (page 188-189) is a CR 12 monster with a low AC but two handy special qualities; DR 40 / +4.... and Spell Resistance 35. With triple digit hit points and the ability to shoot a Force Web (invulnerable to attack except against certain named spells) and a Disjunctive Bite (it eats magic items)...

How would you attempt to defeat this creature with the following party makeup?

Level 13 Fighter
Level 13 Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge
Level 11 Paladin
Level 12 Rogue

None have a +4 weapon or greater (+2 inherent with additional abilities; they have never fought anything with DR that is not vulnerable to +2 or less). We do allow a natural 20 to beat any check (such as spell resistance).

Thanks in advance for your consideration. Without a viable strategy for my players (they have the relevant ranks in Knowledge (arcana)), I am reticent about pitting this CR 12 against my players. I have a history of spider-esque foes in my games, and I wanted to have a gameplan as a GM before I consider using this monster against my players (who have less system mastery than I).

[Deox]

Spellgaunts can be a great encounter, especially in numbers as their organization can range from solitary to nest (10-40). My first question would be, how many would the party be exposed to? If we're on the assumption of one, then this should not be a difficult fight with the current party makeup.

The spellgaunt has a poor initiative. Beating it should not be a problem (the paladin or fighter maybe, if they're wearing heavier armour). The first thing would be to either discover the creature before it discovers the party or to recover quickly by beating it in initiative after it gets its surprise round.

At your party's current level, options for flight should be commonplace. This will pretty much negate the spellgaunt as it has no ranged attacks, save the force web (as the web can only be used on a target 20 feet away or less). Secondly, the force web can only target a medium-sized creature or smaller. The mystic theurge can simply enlarge the party to avoid the web entirely. Add the haste spell into the mix and the party can effectively never be caught by the creature. Should the group be caught in an area where flight is not an option (or limited), mobility is still key. The spellgaunt can only travel 40 feet (80 feet if double moving) or 20 feet while climbing (40 on a double).

Your wizard should have assay spell resistance prepared to bypass the creature's hefty SR 35, and use spells to assist in disabling the creature after.

For the fighter and paladin, reach weapons will go a long way in triggering AoOs as the spellgaunt only has a 5 foot reach. The damage reduction, however, is another story.

One thing I noticed is the spellgaunt's poor AC (18). This should let your fighter and paladin power attack with impunity to cause a fair amount per swing that gets through. There is a feat (Draconomicon, IIRC) that lets your physical combatants ignore 5 points of DR/Hardness as long as they have weapon focus in the weapon they're using. Martial abilities from ToB also have maneuvers that completely ignore DR (Mountain Hammer line).

The MiC also has the Transmuting Weapon property. There is also the Shadow Striking property, which will alleviate this problem.

Those are off the top of my head, and I hope they help.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, any SR no energy damaging spell would work. If the rogue gets a wand of acid splash he can bypass ALL the DR with his sneak attack damage. Have the thurge make him greater invisible and let him SA it to death from hiding.

[Urpriest]

Remember, it doesn't actually have DR 40/+4. That doesn't exist in 3.5. You need to go to the update manual to get the actual DR.

[Deadline]

Remember, it doesn't actually have DR 40/+4. That doesn't exist in 3.5. You need to go to the update manual to get the actual DR.

Assuming you are playing a 3.5 game, not a 3.0 one, Urpriest is correct. Worth noting, the updates that came out to the various 3.0 monsters almost universally lower the DR, as well as made most DR/+x into DR/Magic, so any magic weapon will overcome it.

It's worth noting that the CR's in the Monster Manual 2 are woefully off, in many cases. There was a thread about it a while back, which included some effort towards fixing that issue: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046

[zlefin]

The biggest question when formulating a strategy would be how much do they know about the target? Fighting an unknown foe with unknown abilities is far tougher than if you know their stat block and can plan accordingly. So how much does the party know about the gaunt?

[ksbsnowowl]

Its DR was updated to DR 15/Magic and Cold Iron.

Just something to keep in mind for future games (I wouldn't advise changing it mid-campaign) is to reinstate the tiered DR/Magic from 3.0, but otherwise keep 3.5 DR the same.

So, in the instance of the Spellgaunt, give it DR 15/+4 and Cold Iron.

That does things like make the Great Wyrm dragon's DR not useless, but still able to be bypassed by appropriately-leveled or well-prepared heroes.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Spellgaunts can be a great encounter, especially in numbers as their organization can range from solitary to nest (10-40). My first question would be, how many would the party be exposed to? If we're on the assumption of one, then this should not be a difficult fight with the current party makeup.

The spellgaunt has a poor initiative. Beating it should not be a problem (the paladin or fighter maybe, if they're wearing heavier armour). The first thing would be to either discover the creature before it discovers the party or to recover quickly by beating it in initiative after it gets its surprise round.

At your party's current level, options for flight should be commonplace. This will pretty much negate the spellgaunt as it has no ranged attacks, save the force web (as the web can only be used on a target 20 feet away or less). Secondly, the force web can only target a medium-sized creature or smaller. The mystic theurge can simply enlarge the party to avoid the web entirely. Add the haste spell into the mix and the party can effectively never be caught by the creature. Should the group be caught in an area where flight is not an option (or limited), mobility is still key. The spellgaunt can only travel 40 feet (80 feet if double moving) or 20 feet while climbing (40 on a double).

Your wizard should have assay spell resistance prepared to bypass the creature's hefty SR 35, and use spells to assist in disabling the creature after.

For the fighter and paladin, reach weapons will go a long way in triggering AoOs as the spellgaunt only has a 5 foot reach. The damage reduction, however, is another story.

One thing I noticed is the spellgaunt's poor AC (18). This should let your fighter and paladin power attack with impunity to cause a fair amount per swing that gets through. There is a feat (Draconomicon, IIRC) that lets your physical combatants ignore 5 points of DR/Hardness as long as they have weapon focus in the weapon they're using. Martial abilities from ToB also have maneuvers that completely ignore DR (Mountain Hammer line).

The MiC also has the Transmuting Weapon property. There is also the Shadow Striking property, which will alleviate this problem.

Those are off the top of my head, and I hope they help.

All really good tactical build advice, but none of these feats or special weapons are currently in their repertoire (except Power Attack). Currently I have them in a far northern zone with very little civilization. We also only use Core 3.5 (and select GM options from monster manuals 1-4). Good ideas on the reach weapons; they do use Enlarge Person often (at least the Fighter does, via a magic belt).

Thank you for the tactical suggestions, but I'm still leery about getting past DR 40/+4 : / When I looked through the errata for Monster Manual II, there was no change to Spellgaunt. (More on this subject below)


Also, any SR no energy damaging spell would work. If the rogue gets a wand of acid splash he can bypass ALL the DR with his sneak attack damage. Have the thurge make him greater invisible and let him SA it to death from hiding.

I've always been leery about rogues using wands and sneak attack. We've consistently ruled the other way (playing by RAI even though RAW says nothing about Wands- ie, any spell resistance still applies against a wand attack). I did find this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050711a) though from Wizards- you are correct, there are a few damaging spells that bypass DR (like Acid Arrow). I'll have to look through the SRD's available spells to see what else bypasses SR.


Remember, it doesn't actually have DR 40/+4. That doesn't exist in 3.5. You need to go to the update manual to get the actual DR.

Yeah, I found it here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). I downloaded the zip file, looked at the PDF update for Monster Manual 2, and Spellgaunt is not on the list. The document I looked at was last updated Sept of 2006... so well into 3.5's revision. As far as I could tell, Spellgaunt was still officially DR 40/+4.

But at your suggestion, I googled the manual, and found this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) revision in 2003... which listed a pdf marking the Spellgaunt at DR 15/ Cold Iron. The fighter invested in a Metalline primary weapon 5 levels ago, so I don't feel so bad about this critter in one of my dungeons. They at least have the basic tools already in their inventory.

Suddenly, my martial characters have a fighting chance. Thank you Urpriest!


Assuming you are playing a 3.5 game, not a 3.0 one, Urpriest is correct. Worth noting, the updates that came out to the various 3.0 monsters almost universally lower the DR, as well as made most DR/+x into DR/Magic, so any magic weapon will overcome it.

It's worth noting that the CR's in the Monster Manual 2 are woefully off, in many cases. There was a thread about it a while back, which included some effort towards fixing that issue: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046

Yeah, I did some Google Fu, but since Giant made their search function a tourniquet, I've had less luck in searches. Thanks for the link!


The biggest question when formulating a strategy would be how much do they know about the target? Fighting an unknown foe with unknown abilities is far tougher than if you know their stat block and can plan accordingly. So how much does the party know about the gaunt?

This would be a complete "blind side" encounter. Enter a cave/ruin/dungeon, wonder why all the loots are broken and destroyed... aha! A Spellgaunt!

It's looking like the first encounter might have ended up being a retreat and try again sort of thing except the revised DR... We've been running the Knowledge skills to their utmost; I have people with ranks in the relevant skill for the creature type to make a check, and depending on how they roll (10 to identify name, 15 to determine 1 of its attacks, 20 to determine 1 of its weaknesses, etc.)




All in all, thanks for the suggestions folks. My Monster Manual II was so well preserved (bought via Amazon) that I assumed it was already 3.5 ready. It didn't look like a book that had been printed in 2001.

[Fouredged Sword]

SR does, and always has, applied to spells from wands.

That is why you use a spell that is SR no, like orb of X or acid splash.

You need Acid resistance to avoid acid damage, not DR (because DR does not apply to energy attacks)

It makes for a really good 400gp investment for a rogue, if nothing else for a cheep ranged touch attack.

[ksbsnowowl]

But at your suggestion, I googled the manual, and found this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) revision in 2003... which listed a pdf marking the Spellgaunt at DR 15/ Cold Iron. It's actually DR 15/Magic Cold Iron, but at this level, and the fact your Player has a Metalline sword, its a moot point.

[Deadline]

Yeah, I did some Google Fu, but since Giant made their search function a tourniquet, I've had less luck in searches. Thanks for the link!

No problem! The Monster Manual 2 is one of my favorite 3r ed monster books, it just requires some careful scrutiny.