E6 and the Tier system

[EdokTheTwitch]

So, i've been wondering: How does the tier systtem hold up in an E6 campaign? I mean, from my experience, in low level play melees can (and in my games DO) overshadow the casters. I mean, of course, a single charm person can always destroy an encounter, and fly is still there, but all things considered, i don't think the difference is as expressed, if there is any.

And a somewhat related question: How would ToB be rated in that environment? Because, as far as i can see, a fighter can not really stand up to a warblade in any way, especially at lower levels.

tl;dr: E6 and the Tier system, do they work together, or is the tier system obsolete?

[Yora]

Generally it is considered that E6 balances the classes out pretty evenly. Spellcasters are good, but don't own the game. But they have enough hit dice and spells per day to have some staying power.

Warblades are at the very top end in E6, I heard. They seem to be rather frontloaded and you can't really mess them up. But all things considered, I doubt they can cause serious problems.

[Fouredged Sword]

The tiers are... less important at level 6.

E6 was designed with the intent of catching the balancing point between when all day abilities like fighters and warlocks balance vs burst effect characters like wizards.

Wizards are still tier 1 though. A well built wizard can do just about everything. A sorcerer is Tier 2, as he can do anything, but not change what he does.
A warblade is still tier 3, as he can do some things, but not all things.
A fighter is tier 4 because he does one thing, but not anything else.

A fighter 6 CAN take a warblade in a straight up fight though. It would be a fairly even fight though. Fighters can dish out a very respectable damage, and if the warblade gets hit the combat may be a one round affair.

[EdokTheTwitch]

Hmmm, thanks a lot :)
I realized i somewhat missed the point of the Tier system in the question itself, but still, thanks for understanding what i meant.

I'm actually planing on DM-ing a sandbox E6 game (with a dragon as the final boss, sue me :D ), and any input from people that played it would be much appreciated. For example, how would you handle the feeling of no progression with the players (trust me, i tried explaining them that +20 vs +20 is pretty much the same as +6 vs +6 xD)? The feats, while good, don't quite suit my group of low optimisers. Would it be too broken to give them skill points, class features, soulmelds, maneuvers and the like as rewards?

[Talya]

A fighter 6 CAN take a warblade in a straight up fight though. It would be a fairly even fight though. Fighters can dish out a very respectable damage, and if the warblade gets hit the combat may be a one round affair.

The advantage is clearly with the warblade. The difference is within a margin that the dice can easily override the advantage, but the advantage is still clearly with the warblade.

The fighter gets nothing the warblade doesn't also get. The warblade is, at worst 3 feats behind the fighter, which means there will be breakpoints where the fighter may gain an advantage, but feats are not exactly hard to get in E6. The warblade, meanwhile, gets maneuvers and an excellent recovery mechanic, two stances, a d12 hit die... I am relatively positive that the warblade chassis has much greater upside than the fighter's in E6.

(not to mention that few warblades are going to take warblade 6. Improved Uncanny Dodge is a poor capstone, when you're getting nothing else. I'm relatively sure most E6 warblade builds are Warblade 5/{insert Fighter/Crusader/Barbarian/whatevermeleefighteryouwant here} 1.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, E6 is mean to the fighter. Feats are something you get a ton of, class features not so much. Trading your class features for feats is a raw deal in E6. A better comparison would be Barbarian VS Warblade.

[JusticeZero]

For example, how would you handle the feeling of no progression with the players ..? The feats, while good, don't quite suit my group of low optimisers. Would it be too broken to give them skill points, class features, soulmelds, maneuvers and the like as rewards?
Well, for one thing, many of the things you mentioned there are available via feats. For another thing, the point is not to stop advancement, just to redirect it into lateral advancement and get to be an even bigger force in the world instead of playing constant catchup with a world full of demigods.

[Flickerdart]

Casters are still very strong in the early levels - Alter Self, Sleep, Glitterdust, Grease, Colour Spray, Stinking Cloud, PW:P don't suddenly get worse. They get a little less amazing when you hit the level cap and monsters keep getting better, because DCs are not very easy to raise past a certain point, but everyone has this problem.

ToB classes are, of course, very strong at these levels. When most characters only get one attack anyway, maneuvers are at their most powerful.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The tiers remain. they just get tightened up a bit. Mundanes never become wallflowers.

In high epic, non dungeoncrasher fighter may actually drop a tier (to be the same as Warrior) since the value of 4 bonus feats are greatly diminished at +10 or +20 feats. Warblade is great in E6, but I don't think extra feats makes it close the gap with Wizards and Sorcerors that are continually expanding their spells known and spells per day.

[Talya]

The tiers remain. they just get tightened up a bit. Mundanes never become wallflowers.

In high epic, non dungeoncrasher fighter may actually drop a tier (to be the same as Warrior) since the value of 4 bonus feats are greatly diminished at +10 or +20 feats. Warblade is great in E6, but I don't think extra feats makes it close the gap with Wizards and Sorcerors that are continually expanding their spells known and spells per day.

Depends on a few things.... I know E6 created a bunch of "capstone" feats for various classes to get slightly higher level features. Does E6 have any rules for handling Martial Study? (Is it still limited to being taken up to 3 times?) Martial Stance, of course, has no limits, but you will eventually have every stance you qualify for. What about Extra Readied Maneuver for the warblade?

[Tvtyrant]

Tiers are largely the same, except for Shadowcaster which I believe dies a horrible death in E6. I don't think there is a viable way to play a Shadowcaster in early levels, as you have almost no spells.

For Fighters I would just alter Dungeoncrasher so they can pick it up by trading out feats whenever they like. Basically a pair of Fighter only feats.

Artificer starts out really strong and then runs into the issue of not having a scaling crafting pool in the epic portion. The other option is to just keep trading XP for items and hoping your items are as good as the feats everyone else gets.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I don't believe there's any "official" E6 support for ToB at all. E6's creator only put in the "lean up" feats as an after thought (fighter's let's them take feats that require Fighter 8 and/or BAB +8).

Presumably Initiators would get a similar benefit to whatever you allow casters, but it would require 6 levels in an Initiator class.

[Daftendirekt]

From what I hear, there are a couple things that dominate E6. Pixie warlocks, due to how E6 handles Level-adjusted races and point buy... and wildshape mystic rangers, because they get wizard spells, wildshape, AND an animal companion, not to mention that oh-so-precious-in-E6 full BAB.

[Mithril Leaf]

From what I hear, there are a couple things that dominate E6. Pixie warlocks, due to how E6 handles Level-adjusted races and point buy... and wildshape mystic rangers, because they get wizard spells, wildshape, AND an animal companion, not to mention that oh-so-precious-in-E6 full BAB.

That and Elan Shaper Psions. You get psionic minor creation for poison which nearly nobody is immune to, and the crazy scaling of psionic feats with the ability to burn your extra power points to tank bad hits.

Also, you don't get an animal companion IIRC.

[Talya]

Also, you don't get an animal companion IIRC.

Everyone in E6 gets an animal companion, eventually. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

[Fouredged Sword]

And by eventualy you mean at level 1, as a 3HD riding dog is a better fighter than a fighter at that level.

I saw one group that consisted of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, and a sorcerer.

They all took wild cohort.

They buried all ECL 1 encounters under a wall of dog. It wasn't pretty.

[Talya]

And by eventualy you mean at level 1, as a 3HD riding dog is a better fighter than a fighter at that level.

I saw one group that consisted of a druid, a cleric, a wizard, and a sorcerer.

They all took wild cohort.

They buried all ECL 1 encounters under a wall of dog. It wasn't pretty.

Ha. That'd be five animal companions in a four person group...

[Mithril Leaf]

Plus, for another feat you get a fleshraker that replaces itself for free :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Wall of Dog, Dog Cloud, Solid Dog, Acid Dog, Mind Dog...

[TuggyNE]

Wall of Dog, Dog Cloud, Solid Dog, Acid Dog, Mind Dog...

For a second I wondered if I'd stumbled back into that necro'd Misspell Spell thread.

[Crake]

That and Elan Shaper Psions. You get psionic minor creation for poison which nearly nobody is immune to, and the crazy scaling of psionic feats with the ability to burn your extra power points to tank bad hits.

It'd be quite hard to hit the poisoncrafting DC required for those powerful poisons in an e6 setting, especially when you cant get things like masterwork tool and assist bonuses since you're using a spell.

[Fouredged Sword]

6 dogs. The sorcerer took the ACF that gave him an animal companion in place of a familiar.

It was brutal.

[Kaeso]

Generally E6 closes the gap between the tiers, if I'm not mistaken. Level 6 is the level where the casters get really dangerous, but it is also the level where they aren't gods capable of solo-ing through the Abyss on their own. This is also the level where AC still matters (so take a shield if you'd like!) and where melee is still useful.

There are some exceptions though: the fighter gets massively gimped because his main schtick, getting lots of feats, is now available to everybody. He ends up being exactly as useful as a fallen paladin. On the other hand, the Tome of Battle classes are ridiculously overpowered in E6.

[Yora]

The fighter loses his advantage, but gradually.

A Fighter 6+5 (12 feats) really hasn't that much to boast about compared to a Barbarian 6+5 (8 feats), and at +15 feats the fighter (22 feats) really doesn't have any clear advantage over a barbarian (18 feats).
But if you are playing in a game where advancement is relatively slow or even just average while the group does not play that often, it doesn't make the fighter pointless. You can still have fun with the character until you reach +10 or so bonus feats, and that would be as much advancement as getting to 16th level under regular rules. Under which the fighter would probably suck a lot more.
If you don't hand out mithral full plate to everyone, rangers and barbarians probably want to stick to light and medium armor, so enchanted full plate would be an item for the fighters (and clerics, but they are broken anyway).

Eventually fighters do fall behind in E6, but I would say they stay strong far longer than in a 20 level campaign, so they too benefit in some way.

[Emmerask]

Generally E6 closes the gap between the tiers, if I'm not mistaken. Level 6 is the level where the casters get really dangerous, but it is also the level where they aren't gods capable of solo-ing through the Abyss on their own. This is also the level where AC still matters (so take a shield if you'd like!) and where melee is still useful.

There are some exceptions though: the fighter gets massively gimped because his main schtick, getting lots of feats, is now available to everybody. He ends up being exactly as useful as a fallen paladin. On the other hand, the Tome of Battle classes are ridiculously overpowered in E6.

I wouldn´t call it gimped because its fighter is still a very playable class in e6 unlike normal d&d ^^
And you still have your 4 bonus feats which is not too bad which means you have the important stuff earlier then for example a paladin ie
powerattack, shocktrooper and mageslayer feat chain.

In a longer e6 campaign of course this is rather worthless because at some point there are just no really good feats to take anymore... in a shorter campaign however fighter is still a valid choice in e6.

/edit damn those ninja pirate yoras :smallwink:

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, the weapon focus / specialisation line actualy function better for a fighter in E6. With the lean forward feats and a great sword, a fighter is looking at..

7 BAB
+2 to hit and +2 damage (becomes +6 to damage with power attack)
That is the same damage bonus as continuously raging as a barbarian.

Not great, yes, but not bad at all. Mix in Punishing stance and maybe a mountain hammer and steel wind for that big hit once per battle or standard action double hits and you can do a very respectable amount of damage each swing, and are more likely to connect with that swing each time.

It takes more to make it work, but a focus on power attack and damage boosting goes a long way.

[Kaeso]

Mix in Punishing stance and maybe a mountain hammer and steel wind for that big hit once per battle or standard action double hits and you can do a very respectable amount of damage each swing, and are more likely to connect with that swing each time.

Oh yeah, that's right! You can use feats to learn ToB manouvres and stances! Maybe the fighter ends up being a bit more useful than I thought, with the right feats.

[Talya]

Also, the weapon focus / specialisation line actualy function better for a fighter in E6. With the lean forward feats and a great sword, a fighter is looking at..


Nice thing there...

A Warblade 6 also qualifies for Weapon Specialization. Better yet, they can swap it to other weapons. In E6, that's actually eventually going to be worthwhile.

[Fouredged Sword]

I didn't say that a fighter is BETTER than a warblade, or even EQUAL to a warblade.

I said that the combat between the two is likely going to be a matter of who goes first, and if that first hit lands.

Warblade has better skill points, better class features, better saves (int to reflex), and generaly better stuff.

A fighter has +1 to hit over the warblade.

Both are Viable though. You can play a fighter in E6 and feel like a heavy armored battle hardened soldier.

I would remove the fighter bonus feat part of Warblade in E6. It is too powerful with that many feats being thrown around.

Then and give fighter 6+int skill points and more class skills (say any 2 of your choice). (seriously, all non-casters should get at least 4+int)

Then add the dead level filler from the web expansion. (+2 to strength checks can be interesting in E6)

[Talya]

A fighter has +1 to hit over the warblade.


From what?

Also, E6 makes feats less valuable, not more.

[Fouredged Sword]

+1 from greater weapon focus.

Yes, the feats are not very useful, but the large HD, ability to focus on 2 stats, and full BAB go much further in E6. They are not enough to make a great character, but that foundation is much more solid in E6 than in a standard game.

For spellcasters, that 1d4 HD hurts a lot more when false life can't be spammed, misschances have yet to take off, and +6 items of con are not available.

[Emperor Tippy]

+1 from greater weapon focus.

Yes, the feats are not very useful, but the large HD, ability to focus on 2 stats, and full BAB go much further in E6. They are not enough to make a great character, but that foundation is much more solid in E6 than in a standard game.

For spellcasters, that 1d4 HD hurts a lot more when false life can't be spammed, misschances have yet to take off, and +6 items of con are not available.

Grab FMI if you are a Gray Elf, or spend a few of your copious feats on Toughness+Improved Toughness. Or more fun Hidden Power+Psionic Body+Psionic Talent. You gain 2 HP for every psionic feat you have/take.

Granted, Elan Psion can positively dominate in E6.

[dascarletm]

Grab FMI if you are a Gray Elf, or spend a few of your copious feats on Toughness+Improved Toughness. Or more fun Hidden Power+Psionic Body+Psionic Talent. You gain 2 HP for every psionic feat you have/take.

Granted, Elan Psion can positively dominate in E6.

Mother of Pelor... that is evil.:smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

Elan Psion who grabs Elan Resilience, Enhanced, Psionic Body, Up the Walls, and then Psionic Talent for all of his future feats (maybe with some Expanded Knowledge thrown in).

Be a Telepath and take Empathic Transfer, Hostile as one of your powers known.

Or do it as a Wilder so you can over-channel, get a Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Power, and an Ioun stone for +1 ML. That lets you drop 50 points of HP damage on every creature within a 20 foot radius (will save for Half).

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, we know tier one classes can do everything better, and yes tier two classes can be built to be better at any one thing.

The point is that a fighter is at least VIABLE in a non-power gaming group.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, we know tier one classes can do everything better, and yes tier two classes can be built to be better at any one thing.

The point is that a fighter is at least VIABLE in a non-power gaming group.

In E6 practically anything is viable, that's kinda the point.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, exactly. We are, infact, in agreement.

[Scow2]

The fighter gets +3 to-hit over the Warblade. In addition to Greater Weapon Focus, he also gets a BAB of 8. So he can also power-attack harder, and doesn't lose as much for Full Combat Expertise.

A fighter gets more feats in the run-up to level 6. After that, he's kicking around the +8 BAB.

[Talya]

The fighter gets +3 to-hit over the Warblade. In addition to Greater Weapon Focus, he also gets a BAB of 8. So he can also power-attack harder, and doesn't lose as much for Full Combat Expertise.

A fighter gets more feats in the run-up to level 6. After that, he's kicking around the +8 BAB.



Uh, maybe if it were "E8."


I don't believe there's any "official" E6 support for ToB at all. E6's creator only put in the "lean up" feats as an after thought (fighter's let's them take feats that require Fighter 8 and/or BAB +8).


From what's being said here, the fighter counts as having +8 BAB for requirements, but nothing more. Is that wrong?

In any event, to use those homebrew addons you'd need to come up with something for all classes in the game, first. What's the warblade going to be getting?

[Fouredged Sword]

A single 4th level maneuver.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

From what's being said here, the fighter counts as having +8 BAB for requirements, but nothing more. Is that wrong?

In any event, to use those homebrew addons you'd need to come up with something for all classes in the game, first. What's the warblade going to be getting?

No you're right:

Martial Veteran (General) (comrade_raoul)
Prerequisites: Fighter level 6th.
Benefit: You may select feats with a requirement of up to fighter level 8, and with a Base Attack Bonus requirement of up to +8.
Special: A fighter may select Martial Veteran as one of his bonus feats.

Most likely Initiators get a version of these:

Expanded Knowledge (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list.

Expanded Casting (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.


A single 4th level maneuver.

Only in "lean up" where casters get a single 4th level spell (this is not default).

[Talya]

Most likely Initiators get a version of these:

Expanded Knowledge (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list.

Expanded Casting (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.


That's not much different from Martial Study or Additional Readied/Granted Maneuver (Swordsage/Crusader), which you can take at any level. It's not much of a "lean up".

[Fouredged Sword]

Not much "lean up" is needed though.

Filling in an out of class school would open up some cool stuff though.

A devoted spirit warblade or setting sun crusader would be an interesting twist.

[Zonugal]

With proper alternate class features and feats a Fighter in E6 will likely out-perform a Warblade or Crusader in raw damage.

You just need to know how to work the system.

[Talya]

With proper alternate class features and feats a Fighter in E6 will likely out-perform a Warblade or Crusader in raw damage.

You just need to know how to work the system.

What, Dungeoncrasher Sneak Attack Fighter?

[TuggyNE]

With proper alternate class features and feats a Fighter in E6 will likely out-perform a Warblade or Crusader in raw damage.

You just need to know how to work the system.

At what point does this remain true, though? Because if it's a certain combination of feats, well, the others will eventually get those too (unless it's specifically Fighter 8 feats, which seems implausible).

[Talya]

At what point does this remain true, though? Because if it's a certain combination of feats, well, the others will eventually get those too (unless it's specifically Fighter 8 feats, which seems implausible).

He said alternate class features, so I would presume it's things they can trade their feats away for...

[TuggyNE]

He said alternate class features, so I would presume it's things they can trade their feats away for...

ACFs and feats, but yeah, I dunno.

[Zonugal]

What, Dungeoncrasher Sneak Attack Fighter?

At what point does this remain true, though? Because if it's a certain combination of feats, well, the others will eventually get those too (unless it's specifically Fighter 8 feats, which seems implausible).

A Goliath Fighter 6 utilizing the Dungeoncrasher & Zhentarim substitution is really potent (and stays equally as potent) in E6. The Warblade is much more versatile what with their ability to consistently cut through damage reduction/hardness or target a foes touch AC, but the Fighter (if his environment allows) can be tacking on 8d6+3XStr with a bullrush. With feats like Knock-Back and such you can have a heavy damage dealer.

Also in such a situation the Thug acf doesn't hurt either.

[Raven777]

6 dogs. The sorcerer took the ACF that gave him an animal companion in place of a familiar.

It was brutal.

Please tell me that the party started at least one fight with one of the PCs yelling "Release the hounds!".

[Fouredged Sword]

One, that was the start of every fight. I had a dragon fall under the weight of 6HD dogs. The party was fighting CR 12 or 14 monsters under the strength of an equivalent to a 10 man party with 6 expendable fighters.

Now I want to see it run again. They where all halflings, and rode the dogs around all the time, fighting goblins, defending the halfling lands from the forces that would turn their peaceful farming communities into slave camps under the whips of war. It was a good game.

[Coidzor]

From what I hear, there are a couple things that dominate E6. Pixie warlocks, due to how E6 handles Level-adjusted races and point buy... and wildshape mystic rangers, because they get wizard spells, wildshape, AND an animal companion, not to mention that oh-so-precious-in-E6 full BAB.

Mystic Ranger trades away the animal companion, IIRC.


Plus, for another feat you get a fleshraker that replaces itself for free :smallwink:

oh? :smallconfused:

[TuggyNE]

oh? :smallconfused:

Wild Cohort, I assume.

[Coidzor]

Wild Cohort, I assume.

It seemed like that was in reply to people taking Wild Cohort.

And I didn't think Natural Bond would allow a 1st level character to grab a fleshraker. Once you were able to get a fleshraker, it would mitigate the hit to druid level for its animal companion benefits by 3, sure, but not let you get one 3 levels early.

[Yogibear41]

Would it be too broken to give them skill points, class features, soulmelds, maneuvers and the like as rewards?

Theres a feat that gives you 5 skill points to use, as well as feats to learn new maneuvers/stances. There are also many feats that enhance class abilities such as wild feats for druids and rage feats for barbarians, both for extra uses and modifications to them.

Not sure about any soulmeld feats off the top of my head, but I know there are alot of essentia feats.

[TuggyNE]

It seemed like that was in reply to people taking Wild Cohort.

Oh, then I've got nothing.

[Mithril Leaf]

It seemed like that was in reply to people taking Wild Cohort.

And I didn't think Natural Bond would allow a 1st level character to grab a fleshraker. Once you were able to get a fleshraker, it would mitigate the hit to druid level for its animal companion benefits by 3, sure, but not let you get one 3 levels early.

At level 6, that was the plan. It's one of those nice scaling things that E6 has for feats.


Elan Psion who grabs Elan Resilience, Enhanced, Psionic Body, Up the Walls, and then Psionic Talent for all of his future feats (maybe with some Expanded Knowledge thrown in).

Be a Telepath and take Empathic Transfer, Hostile as one of your powers known.

Or do it as a Wilder so you can over-channel, get a Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Power, and an Ioun stone for +1 ML. That lets you drop 50 points of HP damage on every creature within a 20 foot radius (will save for Half).

To be fair, there are no Torcs of Power Preservation in E6 since they actually require 8th level powers. Psionic crafting rules are very explicit about their wondrous items meeting prerequisites and it's AFAIK impossible to get 15th level manifesting in E6. In theory you might be able to wish it up if you use silly 9ths at first wizardry, but even then it's a stretch. Not to say it's not a rocking idea, but I just happened to be disappointed to realize the fact earlier today.

[Emperor Tippy]

To be fair, there are no Torcs of Power Preservation in E6 since they actually require 8th level powers. Psionic crafting rules are very explicit about their wondrous items meeting prerequisites and it's AFAIK impossible to get 15th level manifesting in E6. In theory you might be able to wish it up if you use silly 9ths at first wizardry, but even then it's a stretch. Not to say it's not a rocking idea, but I just happened to be disappointed to realize the fact earlier today.

Pity.

Wizard 1/Psion 2/ Cerebremancer 3 who can use Polymorph twice per day at CL 10 and can manifest Psychometabolism or Telepathy powers at ML 10. Has spells as a Wizard 4 and a Psion 5.

Which means it can do a Metapower: Linked Power Earth Power Bestow Power for unlimited PP and can throw out an Ego Whip that does 8 Cha damage and activates a linked Synchronicity (augmented for the full round of actions).

Or that you can dump an augmented Empathic Transfer, Hostile if you want. The only problem is that you are limited to only the one third level power. That or Ectoplasmic Form are probably your best choices for that power (I would go with Empathic Transfer, Hostile as it provides very good self healing and an attack.

---
And virtually all of the 9ths at first level tricks don't actually work because they don't give you the CL 17 that you need to actually cast the spell.

[Slipperychicken]

At level 6, that was the plan. It's one of those nice scaling things that E6 has for feats.



To be fair, there are no Torcs of Power Preservation in E6 since they actually require 8th level powers. Psionic crafting rules are very explicit about their wondrous items meeting prerequisites and it's AFAIK impossible to get 15th level manifesting in E6. In theory you might be able to wish it up if you use silly 9ths at first wizardry, but even then it's a stretch. Not to say it's not a rocking idea, but I just happened to be disappointed to realize the fact earlier today.

Couldn't an Illithid or other big scary casting/manifesting beastie make them?


Just because PCs can't make it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Mithril Leaf]

Couldn't an Illithid or other big scary casting/manifesting beastie make them?


Just because PCs can't make it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Only a minimum of Ancient Gem Dragons can do it by default. Dragons wouldn't devote their time to the lowly creation of universal items for anyone but themselves. Thus, if you can kill one of those, you could probably get one, since they'd most likely have one for themselves.

[Slipperychicken]

Dragons wouldn't devote their time to the lowly creation of universal items for anyone but themselves.

It could be a way to expand the hoard :smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

It could be a way to expand the hoard :smallbiggrin:

But if they're the only ones that can make them, think of the prices!

[Emperor Tippy]

So most of E6 will die to 80 damage attacks, right?

[Mithril Leaf]

So most of E6 will die to 80 damage attacks, right?

I think so.

Most of E6 will crumble under a horde of 40 minute level 5 astral constructs, right?

[Emperor Tippy]

I think so.

Most of E6 will crumble under a horde of 40 minute level 5 astral constructs, right?

I don't know, I don't play E6.

[Mithril Leaf]

I don't know, I don't play E6.

That's a shame, it's a good exercise in artificial limitations. Plus, Gnorman's classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250820) rock pretty hard. I think they can bust through any DR in E6 and unlimited armies of never tiring soldiers can win most wars of attrition.