Looking to be a meatsheild brawler. Incresing unarmed strike damage, +AC with minimal

[bcg737]

So I have a dwarf with 5 levels of fighter, 5 levels of dwarven defender, and one level of a WOW prestige class known as "bonecrusher". I plan to proceed though all 10 levels of bonecrusher.
http://i.imgur.com/kd8XXGK.png
http://i.imgur.com/072oOkT.png

Basically, bonecrushers fight without armor, and with thier bare hands/minimal equiptment.

And at the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th levels, I get to hit as If I was a size class bigger, ending on me hitting at a collosal size at level 9.

I am my parties meat sheild, first one into combat etc.

I already have improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike, and with the size increase to damage combined, I will be hitting as such for the next 9 levels:

Lvl1 (now)- 2D8
Lvl2- 2D8
Lvl3-3D8
Lvl4-3D8
Lvl5-3D8
Lvl6-6D6
Lvl7-6D6
Lvl8-6D6
Lvl9-8D6
Lvl10-8D6

Basically, I am looking to improve my unarmed strike damage, mebey increasing the number of hits etc and to become more risilient to damage with minimal armor.

[Keld Denar]

I can tell you right now that the ability is borked. A slam is something VERY different from an UAS.

Otherwise, your build is illegal. DD requires a +7 BAB. Fighter5 only has a +5 BAB, obviously. You need 2 levels in there of something full BAB to work. What are the prereqs for Bonecrusher? Also, Fighter 5 is a VERY bad place to leave the class. It is a VERY dead level, not giving anything at all other than +1 BAB and some HP. Best to cut out at Fighter 4 and dip a level of Barbarian, or continue on to Fighter 6 (especially if you Dungeoncrash, see Dungeonscape for more details). 5 is about the worst number of Fighter levels you can have.

The best builds for UAS size boosting tend to be psionic because of how awesome Expansion is. Tashalatora builds that blend Monk and Psychic Warrior are generally pretty decent and can hit some respectable numbers with UAS damage and AC. Just a thought.

[Tvtyrant]

The best builds for UAS size boosting tend to be psionic because of how awesome Expansion is. Tashalatora builds that blend Monk and Psychic Warrior are generally pretty decent and can hit some respectable numbers with UAS damage and AC. Just a thought.

Or Arcane with Wu Jen for Giant's Growth. Colossal size plus the normal damage increases from Monk and SUS is a good thing.

[bcg737]

Unfortunately, This is a character already in progress, and the new class is something the dm suggested based on how I played my character.

Wish I could start over, but not on this campaign.

And the +2 BAB was due to some home brewed enhancements I bought from a sorceress in game. Left my character broke, but more powerful.

And as for the Slam/UAS situation, there was some modification/homebrew involved with my DM, as the character description for the Bonecrusher class implies that a bonecrusher's punching UAS is treated as a slam. Based on that, the DM made the call that the slams were to be treated as regular old punches UAS.

It is even implied in the table above, where "slam damage" at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels is called "increased UAS"

[bcg737]

Oh, and pre-req for bonecrusher:
A racial bonus to strength (dwarves etc)
any non-lawful alignment
BAB +6
Feats: Improved bullrush, endurance, power attack
Must be medium or larger

[The Glyphstone]

Dragon Magic has the Fanged Ring item, for 10,000GP. It grants Improved Unarmed Strike (redundant) and Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) while worn, and makes your unarmed critical hits deal 1 Con damage.

That'll give you yet another die size increase to your fist damage.

Since you've got Superior Unarmed Strike, you should get Snap Kick too...extra unarmed attacks are never a bad thing.



Ask your DM if you can gradually retrain the Dwarven Defender levels, swapping them out for Bonecrusher, Barbarian, or more Fighter levels. It really is an absolutely terrible prestige class, defeated by anyone with a 10ft. movement speed, and really counter-intuitive to the purpose you stated...a meatshield needs to be able to get between the party and the enemy, and if you're immobile in Defensive Stance, the enemy can just walk around/past you freely. +1 Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge are not worth 5 levels under any circumstance.



EDIT: And are you using a homebrew dwarf? they get +Con, -Cha, so they couldn't normally take Bonecrusher levels.

[Ivellius]

I'd recommend against Dwarven Defender and suggest swapping into some Barbarian levels. Extra Strength and Constitution never hurt, and the Bonecrusher is about moving through enemies, at least at times. The speed bonus helps a dwarf, and Extra Rage (from Complete Warrior, I think) lets you use your boost from rage more.

Also, make sure you get clarification from your GM as to whether it's an unarmed attack or a slam. They do interact a bit differently.

[bcg737]

Dragon Magic has the Fanged Ring item, for 10,000GP. It grants Improved Unarmed Strike (redundant) and Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) while worn, and makes your unarmed critical hits deal 1 Con damage.

That'll give you yet another die size increase to your fist damage.

Since you've got Superior Unarmed Strike, you should get Snap Kick too...extra unarmed attacks are never a bad thing.



Ask your DM if you can gradually retrain the Dwarven Defender levels, swapping them out for Bonecrusher, Barbarian, or more Fighter levels. It really is an absolutely terrible prestige class, defeated by anyone with a 10ft. movement speed, and really counter-intuitive to the purpose you stated...a meatshield needs to be able to get between the party and the enemy, and if you're immobile in Defensive Stance, the enemy can just walk around/past you freely. +1 Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge are not worth 5 levels under any circumstance.



EDIT: And are you using a homebrew dwarf? they get +Con, -Cha, so they couldn't normally take Bonecrusher levels.

Yea, Bonecrushers in my DMs campaign are pretty much dwarven sport boxers. A bunch of show offs that can punch really hard, so he let my dwarf have the same option. He suggested it actually, because I was a "rush in and beat them up" kind of dwarf, while the rest of my party usually did ranged stuff.

And yea, This is my first campaign, and for some dumb reason, Dwarven defender appealed to me, so I took 5 levels in it until I realized how stupid it. Hopefully he will let me retrain.

[bcg737]

I'd recommend against Dwarven Defender and suggest swapping into some Barbarian levels. Extra Strength and Constitution never hurt, and the Bonecrusher is about moving through enemies, at least at times. The speed bonus helps a dwarf, and Extra Rage (from Complete Warrior, I think) lets you use your boost from rage more.

Also, make sure you get clarification from your GM as to whether it's an unarmed attack or a slam. They do interact a bit differently.

Yea, if he lets me do that, I would probably do barbarian levels.


He describes boncrushers to me as dwarves who have trained their bodies enough to break through and physical or mental limitation. The "bonecrusher fisticuffs" championship had these bonecrushers going at each other like boxers

is a punch an UAS?

I think my dm considers punching an UAS. but ill double check.

[Lightlawbliss]

with your damage, don't forget that superior unarmed strike and the increased "size" of the weapon are different bonuses that likely stack. (not looking at books right now so I can't see if your table uses both.)

as has already been said: snap kick is a godsend feat for you. nearly free unarmed strike on ANY attack or attack sequence.

also, if your dm alows retraining: you might want to consider a martial adept class (crusader, swordsage, warblade) as these have some nice features for your goal.

[bcg737]

with your damage, don't forget that superior unarmed strike and the increased "size" of the weapon are different bonuses that likely stack. (not looking at books right now so I can't see if your table uses both.)

as has already been said: snap kick is a godsend feat for you. nearly free unarmed strike on ANY attack or attack sequence.

also, if your dm alows retraining: you might want to consider a martial adept class (crusader, swordsage, warblade) as these have some nice features for your goal.

As far as I can tell, I can basically punch as If I was one size higher at level one, two sizes level 3 etc until at level 9, my dwarf is hitting as if he was a colossal creature.

And not sure what stacking refers to. Im new to this term surprisingly.

And the damage dice in the OP is using both SUAS and the size increases.

[The Glyphstone]

Stacking means combining. So if you have a +1 to effective size, and a +2 to effective size, they in total mean you have a +3 to effective size.

[bcg737]

Well basically, what I did for the damage dice in the OP was take my UAS damage dice (D10 with superior unarmed strike) and increasing the damage a size class

so d10 damage dice become 2d8 damage dice and so on.

Am I doing this right?

[bcg737]

Also, bonecrushers mostly fight bare-chested with a simple pair of shorts on, mebey some chain mail at most.

Increasing AC with minimal armor would be great as well.

My characters HP is at 139 right now, AC is at 21 with chainmail.

[Lightlawbliss]

Also, bonecrushers mostly fight bare-chested with a simple pair of shorts on, mebey some chain mail at most.

Increasing AC with minimal armor would be great as well.

My characters HP is at 139 right now, AC is at 21 with chainmail.

sword sage: get wisdom to ac when using light or no armor. it's a first lvl feature

[bcg737]

I wish, my dwarf is dumb as hell lol. 10 Wis

[The Glyphstone]

Get a variant of Glamered armor that looks like you're not wearing armor at all? Then you can go around in anything up to full plate and still look like a bonecrusher should.

Actually wearing no armor when you're outside the arena circle is probably a bad idea.

[animewatcha]

What about the psychoactive skin in MIC that is +8 to armor 2 max dex 6 ac penalty and counts as light armor? 6k gp.

-edit- wrong word used.

[The Glyphstone]

Hideously expensive non-magical fullplate, basically. It's a decent alternative if he's dead-set on playing up the 'sports boxer fighting monsters as if he were in a match' angle instead of the 'sports boxer using his skills to kill monsters' angle.

[Saintheart]

Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species at 2600 gp might be handy. Lets you apply weapon qualities to your fists.

And since you've had to suck up the otherwise pointless Endurance to get into this PrC, I'd recommend taking Steadfast Determination, which allows you to use your CON as the base for your Will save rather than your very ordinary WIS score.

[bcg737]

Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species at 2600 gp might be handy. Lets you apply weapon qualities to your fists.

And since you've had to suck up the otherwise pointless Endurance to get into this PrC, I'd recommend taking Steadfast Determination, which allows you to use your CON as the base for your Will save rather than your very ordinary WIS score.

My con is at 19, that will do quite nicely

[bcg737]

Well basically, what I did for the damage dice in the OP was take my UAS damage dice (D10 with superior unarmed strike) and increasing the damage a size class

so d10 damage dice become 2d8 damage dice and so on.

Am I doing this right?


Also, am I stacking this correctly?

[Lightlawbliss]

medium to colossal is 4 steps of increase. at lvls 16-20 your unarmed damage is 2d6 at medium size (using version of superior in tome of battle). 2d6 medium is 3d6 large, 4d6 huge, 5d6 gargantuan, 6d6 colossal. someone correct me if I advanced that wrong.

[bcg737]

medium to colossal is 4 steps of increase. at lvls 16-20 your unarmed damage is 2d6 at medium size (using version of superior in tome of battle). 2d6 medium is 3d6 large, 4d6 huge, 5d6 gargantuan, 6d6 colossal. someone correct me if I advanced that wrong.


This is the sizing chart I have been using:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ly3p?Damage-by-size-charts-extended

Damage -> Larger
1d2 -> 1d3 (as per table from the Equipment section)
1d3 -> 1d4
1d4 -> 1d6
1d6 -> 1d8
1d8 -> 2d6
1d10 -> 2d8
1d12 -> 3d6
2d4 -> 2d6
2d6 -> 3d6
2d8 -> 3d8
2d10 -> 4d8

3d6 -> 4d6 (as per the INA feat description)
4d6 -> 6d6
6d6 -> 8d6
8d6 -> 12d6
3d8 -> 4d8
4d8 -> 6d8
6d8 -> 8d8
8d8 -> 12d8

12d6 -> 16d6 (as per closest formula: 2x6d6 -> 2x8d6)
16d6 -> 24d6 (2x8d6 -> 2x12d6)
24d6 -> 32d6 (2x12d6 -> 2x16d6)
32d6 -> 48d6 (2x16d6 -> 2x24d6)
12d8 -> 16d8 (same)
16d8 -> 24d8
24d8 -> 32d8
32d8 -> 48d8

[Lightlawbliss]

If that is the chart your dm wants to use, then your good.

[Gavinfoxx]

I strongly, strongly suggest scrapping this entire build and doing a new crunch for character. Punch = Unarmed Strike. Slam != 'Unarmed strike', though it is done 'unarmed'.

Here's how you make a savage, meatshield brawler.

Step 1.) Be a Barbarian
Step 2.) Choose your Alternative class features

Here are some of the ones to choose from for a brawler:
a.) Whirling Frenzy (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) or Ferocity (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
b.) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion, this is a big one!)
c.) Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) or Bear Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana)
d.) Skilled City-Dweller: Ride for Tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
e.) City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349, this is a big one!)
f.) Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement)

Step 3.) Choose useful Feats to improve your unarmed strike damage (you already get improved unarmed strike from city brawler)

Here are some of the ones to choose:
a.) Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle)
b.) Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike (Monster Manual or System Resource Document. Note you don't need this if you have a Fanged Ring.)
c.) Power Attack (Players Handbook or System Resource Document. Gotta love Power Attack! Especially if you go Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior), though you aren't the best charger in the world. It's better if you use Hammer Fist (Dragon Compendium and Races of Faerun), though.)

Step 4.) Get items that improve your unarmed strike damage
a.) Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide or System Resource Document, if your wisdom is high)
b.) Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species)
c.) Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic)
d.) Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun, ask if a Barbarian with all of these acf's can count as a Monk for purposes of it)

Step 5.) Get items that improve your defenses
a.) If your wisdom is low, get a +1 Mithral Breastplate; it is the heaviest armor that you are proficient in, being light armor. In other words, it is as heavy as a steel chain shirt, as far as the game rules are concerned. Make it Spiked Armor and make the spikes +1 Smoking (Lords of Darkness) to give you miss chance, or perhaps also Defending (Dungeon Master's Guide or System Resource Document) and Parrying (Magic Item Compendium).
b.) Invest in good defensive items like a Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark), making it also a Cloak of Resistance (per rules in Magic Item Compendium for the easy additions).

[bcg737]

Wish I could, but I already spent 5 months playing this character, and I cannot rebuild him at this point. I have to work with what I have.

Also, the bonecrusher class states that unarmed strikes are to be treated as an armed slam attack, and that the bonecrusher is considered armed at all times.
Im not sure how that changes the mechanics.

Here, ill post the entire class:
http://i.imgur.com/iNDTZRx.png
http://i.imgur.com/anL9gRG.png
http://i.imgur.com/tvDCEUK.png
http://i.imgur.com/QedHvaw.png
http://i.imgur.com/HO5415e.png

If this guy dies, then I will build from a more stable base.

[Gavinfoxx]

Bonecrusher ISN'T a bad class. It has a few things going for it, namely:

1.) Encouraging you to get size increases. This is good, it means you should be a Psychic Warrior or Ardent and get Expansion, and get lots of potions of enlarge person (or get one permanencied on you), all good things for unarmed combat.
2.) Double damage on a charge. This is really good, and is in general one of the best way in D&D to get obscene damage, like in the thousands per charge, by stacking charge and power attack multipliers
3.) If you have the slam = unarmed strike thing going on... I think if you ONLY use slams, they are treated as two handed weapons... maybe? For purposes of power attack and strength and such?

Still, taking a level of whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian will hugely increase your damage output. Consider the Rebuilding Quest and Retraining rules in Players Handbook II (ewww level 5 of Fighter? Really? Look at what it gives you!).

Also, here is how to deal damage in the thousands:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12842.20

It's not unarmed, but you can see how the stacking combos with charging and shock trooper work in general, yea? That's useful for you to know... I wouldn't suggest frenzied berserker though, it isn't party friendly.

You should also look at these two builds:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8034.0

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107

Note they have some minor issues with legality, at least the second one does.

But Fist of the Forest, Snap Kick, Hammer Fist, Steadfast Determination all are good things...

[Gavinfoxx]

delete this post

[bcg737]

Bonecrusher ISN'T a bad class. It has a few things going for it, namely:

1.) Encouraging you to get size increases. This is good, it means you should be a psychic warrior and get Expansion, and get lots of potions of enlarge person, all good things for unarmed combat.
2.) Double damage on a charge. This is really good, and is in general one of the best way in D&D to get obscene damage, like in the thousands per charge, by stacking charge and power attack multipliers
3.) If you have the slam = unarmed strike thing going on... I think if you ONLY use slams, they are treated as two handed weapons... maybe? For purposes of power attack and strength and such?

#1- yea, that size increase is where I am getting most of my damage from. 8D8 at level 20, gonna find some feats to increase strikes or increase damage. I even have a mage in the group that will make casting enlarge person on me as a percurser to boss battles, boosting the damage dice up another level. just might take a level in FSLB

#2- Yea, that charge is pretty sweet, seems like a good way to rush into things when a battle starts!

#3- Thats what I was thinking, have to confirm with the DM, but I might get the entire 1.5 strength bonus on my damage rolls. Woot!



Still, taking a level of whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian will hugely increase your damage output. Consider the Rebuilding Quest rules in Players Handbook II (ewww level 5 of Fighter? Really? Look at what it gives you!).

I know I know, its my first character, and I was young and foolish and leveled up away from the helpful eye of my DM. Meh, my character isnt too bad, 151 HP, 22 strength, 19 const. Plus the mages are good about casting stuff on my to keep the main damage/meat shield going. Plus I have some feats that are working my way, power attack etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

I edited my post to add some extra info, try rereading it.

Also, here's a thread about size increases and unarmed damage increasing:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

Maybe the 3rd party books you are using have a humanoid that can let you get a size increase with Alter Self (there isn't one for dwarves in normal 3.5e)? Then you just need a potion of it or whatever...

Here's a thread about optimizing power attack:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

[bcg737]

Bonecrusher ISN'T a bad class. It has a few things going for it, namely:

1.) Encouraging you to get size increases. This is good, it means you should be a Psychic Warrior or Ardent and get Expansion, and get lots of potions of enlarge person (or get one permanencied on you), all good things for unarmed combat.
2.) Double damage on a charge. This is really good, and is in general one of the best way in D&D to get obscene damage, like in the thousands per charge, by stacking charge and power attack multipliers
3.) If you have the slam = unarmed strike thing going on... I think if you ONLY use slams, they are treated as two handed weapons... maybe? For purposes of power attack and strength and such?

Still, taking a level of whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian will hugely increase your damage output. Consider the Rebuilding Quest and Retraining rules in Players Handbook II (ewww level 5 of Fighter? Really? Look at what it gives you!).

Also, here is how to deal damage in the thousands:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12842.20

It's not unarmed, but you can see how the stacking combos with charging and shock trooper work in general, yea? That's useful for you to know... I wouldn't suggest frenzied berserker though, it isn't party friendly.

You should also look at these two builds:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8034.0

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107

Note they have some minor issues with legality, at least the second one does.

But Fist of the Forest, Snap Kick, Hammer Fist, Steadfast Determination all are good things...


I edited my post to add some extra info, try rereading it.

Also, here's a thread about size increases and unarmed damage increasing:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

Maybe the 3rd party books you are using have a humanoid that can let you get a size increase with Alter Self (there isn't one for dwarves in normal 3.5e)? Then you just need a potion of it or whatever...

Here's a thread about optimizing power attack:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

Thanks for all the help man!

[Gavinfoxx]

Now you just have to tell us what happens, what you go for, whether your GM will let you rebuild/retrain, etc. etc. Keep us informed!

[bcg737]

Now you just have to tell us what happens, what you go for, whether your GM will let you rebuild/retrain, etc. etc. Keep us informed!

Will do man! Either way, the DM is liberal with enhancements, spells, technological upgrades, so im sure he will give me some bonuses to my punching slams.

Ill keep you informed.