A question on martial stance.

[Joe Eskimo]

Specifically, can a 6th level crusader take martial stance to gain thicket of blades at this level? It sucks having to wait for 8th level just to get this. I'm sure the warblade also has this problem. Get a good stance but no way to learn em until later.

[Keld Denar]

Its a commonly known issue that someone FUBAR'd the stance progression for all of the initiators. As it stands, a Crusader can't even learn any of it's 8th level stances without multiclassing or spending a feat.

There are some alternate feat progression suggestions around. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head when they should get them, but yea...it's not right as printed.

[BowStreetRunner]

Technically, a Crusader can take Martial Stance to gain Thicket of Blades as early as 5th level - assuming he can get a feat at 5th level. So yes, you can use your 6th level feat to purchase Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades this way. You would then gain an additional stance at 8th level as usual.

[Darrin]

The ToB Unofficial Errata (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0) project on the mimmaxboards fixes the stance progression, but it's unofficial (and not as entirely done as they seem to think it is...).

[Joe Eskimo]

Awesome. And yeah the stance progression is a mess.

[BowStreetRunner]

Awesome. And yeah the stance progression is a mess.

What you are referring to is this:


Levels at which Crusader receives a new stance: 1st, 2nd, 8th, 14th
Levels at which new stances become available on the Crusader list: 1st, 5th, 9th, 11th, 15th



Levels at which Swordsage receives a new stance: 1st, 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, 20th
Levels at which new stances become available on the Swordsage list: 1st, 5th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th



Levels at which Warblade receives a new stance: 1st, 4th, 10th, 16th
Levels at which new stances become available on the Warblade list: 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, 15th


The problem is that when a martial adept reaches certain levels they are awarded a new stance, but they are one level shy of seeing a new stance become available on their class list. For instance, when a Warblade reaches 4th level, the list of stances available will include only the 1st level stances he chose not to take at 1st level. He will be one level shy of 3rd level stances becoming available on the Warblade list.

One solution many players choose is to dip into another class before reaching one of these levels. For instance, Warblade 4 ends up with 2 stances of 1st level. But Warblade 3 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 1 allows the Warblade to take a 3rd level stance for his 4th Warblade level. He also gains two bonus feats out of the fighter levels and at 6th level may also be eligible for Weapon Specialization. Since Fighter levels count as 1/2 initiator level each, he loses only 1 initiator level overall from this progression. Of course, he will now reach 20th level without learning Stance Mastery, learning a 13th maneuver, or being able to ready 7 maneuvers.

Another solution for many players is the Martial Stance feat, which allows them to learn a stance available at the level they take the feat. This keeps their class progression from being thrown off, and guarantees they receive their capstone ability on time.