What is wring with the soul knife? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ngilop

2013-05-30, 06:58 PM

Juntao112

2013-05-30, 07:02 PM

meby a fall baes attk bonis?

Callin

2013-05-30, 07:08 PM

Dreamscarred Press made a book called "Mind Blade Feats". Basically for a few feat investments a Fighter can rock a better Mind Blade than a Soul Knife.

This is how a friend of mine made a Faux Jedi using a Psion and these feats to mimic the Lightsaber. My brother made a kick tail fighter using these feats and I made a pretty sweet Swordsage/Psionic Monk/Shadow Sun Ninja.

Spuddles

2013-05-30, 07:15 PM

Try Incarnum for soul power bs. You wear souls as magic items and channel them for stuff. The system is pretty thematically dumb, imo, but it sounds kinda close to what you wnt.

More to the point of what you want- try PF soulknife. I hear it is mechanically better, but as far as I care, if your actions are being wasted on swinging a weapon, you're probably a chump anyway. Wzrd4lyfe.

ngilop

2013-05-30, 07:16 PM

eggynack

2013-05-30, 07:24 PM

while I do enjoy anonymous GiTP forum goers insulting my inability to type correctly. I only mispelt a handful of words on my enitre post. nothing even comparing to you on purpose and in a mockway mispelling every sinlge word you type as a passive insult towards me

donkey wholes liek you are why just about everyday I wonder why i am even a part of this horrendous community.
I'm not going to speak to how warranted insults are, but you misspell a ridiculous amount of words. I'm honestly not sure whether or not this quoted post erred constantly on purpose. The syntactical form of your original post is nothing short of terrible, both in its grammar, and in its spelling. If you'd like, I could start going through the entire post, scouring for errors, but that doesn't seem like it'd have a point. This community is helpful to those that put the effort in, and you obviously did not.

Callin

2013-05-30, 07:27 PM

Scow2

2013-05-30, 07:31 PM

while I do enjoy anonymous GiTP forum goers insulting my inability to type correctly. I only mispelt a handful of words on my entire post. nothing even comparing to you on purpose and in a mockingway mispelling every sinlge word you type as a passive insult towards me

people like you are why just about everyday I wonder why i am even a part of this horrendous community.

what book in the pathfinder soulknife in?

I already tried an attachment of incarnum stuff on this forum a couple of weeks ago, the consensesus was I was wrong and there was too much blue.

I don't think he was mocking your spelling as much as pointing out one of their biggest and most obvious drawbacks in the most childish manner possible.

ngilop

2013-05-30, 07:34 PM

thank you callin. I only saw 6 , 7 if you count my title, words that were misstyped in my post.

that hardly warnats the unnecessary need for some forum goers to take time out of theri day to just insult me, or really anybody for that matter.

the community is only helpful to a certain few ive found out. other times people love to push their own agendas and go completly off topic on the threads they post on.

Instead of continuing to pursue the 'lets insult ngilop' bandwagon maybe offer me some advice on what My threads are actually about?

I mean after all we are all brothers and sisters, and life is too short to just go around and 'gang up' on people for no other reason than for personal jollies. Really it seems rather... whats the word here Im looking for? oh well I will think of it some other time.

eggynack

2013-05-30, 07:36 PM

I read the OP just fine. There really is no reason to start bashing on a guy just because he spelled a few things wrong or his grammar is bad. For some people English is not their first language. So on forums I really do cut people slack when it comes to most things.
That is a fair assessment, but I don't think that's the only reason. There are several errors in his post which I can only assume are universal to all languages. A notable error in this line is the omitted punctuation at the end of the first sentence. It's not the worst thing in the post, but it is indicative of a rushed post rather than a foreign post. I actually found the whole thing rather hard to read, and his claim that Juntao's criticism was overly pedantic seemed incorrect to me. I tend to rein in my desire for good post formation, but I have limits.

Steward

2013-05-30, 07:41 PM

If you like the soulknife but you don't want to give it psionics, you should probably give it something useful. Their other abilities are mediocre. Soulbows are better, but that's a prestige class and my personal philosophy is if a class needs a prestige class to work then it doesn't work. I recommend either merging it with incarnum as was suggested earlier or incorporating something from Tome of Battle.

The class should be able to work "out of the box" and in my view the soulknife has many problems in that regard. Like the monk, almost all of its class features are things that anyone can just buy: if you want an enchanted sword, you can just get one, right? Your DM might even let you loot one in a dungeon crawl. And if they don't for some reason, you can just have someone cast Greater Magic Weapon. There, now anyone can have a sword that is better than 75% of your class.

Their psychic strike ability is honestly worse than a rogue's sneak attack; you have to spend a move action to charge it and it only does 1d8 damage to one attack -- there are enchantments that you can get for an actual sword that are as good as this and less time-consuming and inefficient to use. The fact that needs to be charged is dumb, the fact that most people are immune to it is frustrating, and the fact that it does so little damage no matter how strong your character gets is maddening. (Seriously, 5d8 at 20th level? Really!?! The rogue gets 10d6 by then!) For you, I would recommend just rewriting this ability. Don't even bother trying to make it like the original -- come up with whatever you think would be cool.

Flickerdart

2013-05-30, 07:44 PM

Forget about Psychic Strike. Even if you make it a swift action, 5d8 1/round is utterly forgettable at the levels you get that many dice.

I'd start looking at things like Psychic Weapon Master and Kensai for classes that do the "magic stick as a class feature" thing a lot better. Also, look at the original 3e Soulknife - it's amazing how badly the 3.5 version messed up what was a tidy little prestige class.

DMVerdandi

2013-05-30, 07:52 PM

Well, I WOULD suggest giving him psychic warrior powers, but for some reason you don't like psionics in your fantasy...

(Only god knows why. Psychic powers are at LEAST 3000 years old in the idea that the mind alone can directly shape reality. They are older than your "fantasy". Moreover, traditionally magic came from three sources. From one's own power[Ki,Pneuma,psyche, aura] from divine spirits [thaumaturgy] and from malevolent spirits [Goetia, Arcanum, Malificum,Sorcere])

Otherwise, they just kinda blow. Here is the real reason. They are melee warriors before anything. Melee warriors need weapons, and magic weapons to be precise. Melee warriors can buy those at any magic mart necessary. OR can have their resident spellcasters make them, or can pick them up.

The novelty of having a weapon no one can take away is pretty sweet, but it is NOT worth 20 levels. I wouldn't sacrifice more than 5. Casters and manifesters wouldn't spend one single level. Because they get free weapons with their magic.

I would ditch the class completely and start from the ground up.
Instead of making it psionic, make it magical. Possibly a variant of a duskblade. Lets go with that for now. Get rid of it's weapon and armor proficiency, and give it a new ability to manifest any weapon from it's own magic. Have it last 24 hours with the expendature of any spell slot.

Now, give it an enhancement bonus equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. If you sacrifice a 6th level spell, you get a weapon with weapon enchantments up to a +6 bonus.

At 5th level, you can create two weapons to wield, each which splits the enchantment bonus.

Theoboldi

2013-05-30, 07:55 PM

Insulting a community is not going to endear them very much into helping you.

Anyway, I suggest that you give the class more dice of psychic strike, make it a swift action to use, remove the whole mind-affecting thing and then add several more abilities like 'Knife to the soul' to the class. It's one of the few unique abilities the class gets, and something could be build from it. Make them able to attack most of the ability scores, able to dish out different conditions for specific amounts of dice, such things. That could shape the class into something more interesting and versatile.

SciChronic

2013-05-30, 08:07 PM

Hello everybody, before we get started I want to say this one thing

I abhor to no small extent psionics in my fantasy, as much as I dislike girls who wear short shorts and sweaters in below freezing weather and complain 'my legs are cold" but thats an aside there.

The concept of what the soulknife represents is amazing to me, a warrior who uses his own inner power, in the case of the soul knife its psionic mind powahs, but I am thinking what about a warrior who uses his inner rage to power weapons, or one who does indeed use his own inner self and wield the power of his soul to power his weapons of butt kicking-ness?

liek i mention i disike psionics so I am not going to try to do a midn powah re-work here but use the base chasis to reate something new and hopefully awesome.

I think the soulknife is a bit hehind what is should be conceptualization wise, but as for what and how to correct that I am at a loss, for me this is going to be the most indepth homebrew ive ever done as I am going to be doing 2 versions of the class one with the whole anger fueled powers and the main soul powers.

One thing that strukc out at me as dumb is no matter what every soulnife has short sword ness.. thats dumb why not morning stars or bows.. besides don't SoulBow sound pretty cool? eh.. now that I read it.. not so much as in my head LOL. that and psionic striek is a move action. definately going to make that a swift action for sure.

but what else will it take to get my new creation up to 'tier' 3?
personally i love psionics, but i make them function as a type of magic so powers don't work in AMFs and such, just to reduce clutter.

The issue with the soul knife is that it says its one thing, but it's stats say another. Soulknives are depicted as warriors who can project their mental fortitude, ideals, and resolution into weapons. They are fighters first and foremost.

Each soulknife's personal blade, refered to as a mind blade, differs in color and shape according to his personality, mental strength, and even mood. Although no two mind blades look alike, all share the same lethal qualities. Because soulknives turn the power of their minds to such weaponry, they are notorious for their violence.
--
Strength, combat prowess, and psionic talant allow the soulknife to claim equal footing -at least- with any other combat-oriented class on the field of battle
With all this text saying that they are supposed to be in-you-face and ripping you to shreds, the stats say the opposite.

-3/4 base attack
-weak fortitude save (yet reflex is strong)

furthermore, even though the mindblade gains enhancements as you level, they are behind normal progression for other PCs with mundane weapons. You don't get a +1 weapon until level 4, where most PCs get a +1 weapon at level 3. You can't get a +2 enhancement (as opposed to a +2 bonus) until 10th level. Yes your total is a +4 weapon at 10th level, but a +1 weapon with a +3 enhancement is better than a +2 weapon with a +2 enhancement.

Furthermore, weapon access is terrible as a mindblade, unless you wish to burn feats, the best weapon you can have is either a longsword or 2 shortswords (standard twf penalties apply). and the feat weapons that you can get are either a Dwarven Urgosh, Orc Double Axe, or two-bladed sword without perusing Dragon Mag. which will still result in TWF penalties.

The Nature of Psychic Strike suggests a front loaded first strike style of play, yet it is limited by the fact that it must hit a living, non-mindless creature to deal damage, and is as a whole, worse than sneak attack. And recharging psychic strike takes move actions, if you want to use it multiple times in a fight, so without feats such as Mind Cleave and Swift Mindstrike, your action economy is severely hampered.

While Bladewind seems very interesting, it essentially is a refluffed Whirlwind Attack that you get at level 9, rather than level 6, like a normal fighter could.

So as a whole, Soulknives require a feat intensive style of play, yet you gain 0 bonus feats. Say you're a fighter, but play like a rogue, without the skills or trapfinding.

As a sidenote, the Soulbow PrC does exist, it's in Complete Psionics.

Flickerdart

2013-05-30, 08:17 PM

personally i love psionics, but i make them function as a type of magic so powers don't work in AMFs and such, just to reduce clutter.
Uh...that's how it works already. Read up on what psionic-magic transparency actually means.

TheFallenOne

2013-05-30, 08:23 PM

I'm not going to speak to how warranted insults are, but you misspell a ridiculous amount of words. I'm honestly not sure whether or not this quoted post erred constantly on purpose. The syntactical form of your original post is nothing short of terrible, both in its grammar, and in its spelling. If you'd like, I could start going through the entire post, scouring for errors, but that doesn't seem like it'd have a point. This community is helpful to those that put the effort in, and you obviously did not.

Insulting a community is not going to endear them very much into helping you.

http://imageshack.us/a/img854/1130/sealx.png

Can't we build a character with the Soulknife fluff while only dipping the class and getting most abilities from those that are actually worth taking?

Empedocles

2013-05-30, 08:31 PM

Okay...speaking to the issue of grammar, the OP did seem a little rushed to me, with spelling errors that could've been corrected simply with a cursory glance back over the post. That being said...I would expect better from giant forum-goers. Honestly, it doesn't matter. If the OP bothers you enough that you feel it either reflects a lack of commitment from the poster or that it makes the thread un-readable, simply don't post.

NOW addressing what this thread is actually about. My personal favorite fix for the soulknife is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44220), which breaks the class down into a few feats. Play a psychic warrior, take those homebrew feats.

Alternatively, you can just toss the soulknife class features onto the psychic warrior class, and remove some of his weapon proficiencies. It doesn't break anything.

I also made a personal soulknife fix (this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238935)) which I thought would be neat to leave here. It's not the best, but it works well enough. And if you want to stay closer to the original class instead of giving it maneuvers, try this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241705) fix...also by me. :smalltongue:

Theoboldi

2013-05-30, 08:32 PM

ngilop

2013-05-30, 08:42 PM

Ok so basically the Soul Knife suffers from the same ailment as fighters "does not do what it says on the tin'

SO steal some coolness from teh eknsai make it a Full BAB good fort good will class

so bump teh cool item ness down to start at 3rd and maybe increase the rate at which it improves

bladewind needs to be lower and instead of a full round make it a standard

And give it a bonus feat progression.

now that is the combat outlook. where can the soul knife be improved out of combat? of course 4 SP/level is my minimum on all my non int based classes. but what sort of out of combat abilities can we give.

I do enjoy your idea of making it like a duskblade DMverdani. but actual spell casting is a a little too similar to other classes, but Invocations on the other hand.. I think they would fit perfectly with the inner power fighter. but I might be in the minority here.

DMVerdandi

2013-05-30, 08:48 PM

Can't we build a character with the Soulknife fluff while only dipping the class and getting most abilities from those that are actually worth taking?

If we are doing this, sans homebrew, then it's going to be a one level dip.
Here is my assessment onto what needs to be done.

Soulknife 1/Factotum 1/Crusader 3/Ur-priest 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

LETS GO!!!!!
Take 2 flaws so that you can get Able learner and Academic Priest at level 1 for Ur-priest. Use the other two feats to get the Ur-priest prerequisites. From there pick up Adaptive style at level 3. At level 6 pick up Smiting spell.

The rest of the feats are yours to use at your discretion.

The way it works is by having the ur-priest levels there for the benefit of casting spells like inflict wounds into the soulknife, buffing, and providing the rebuke undead ability needed for RKV.

The character then uses his Soulknife carrying damage dealing spells, and smashes it in the face of whomever with TOB maneuvers. This guy will be a monster.

danzibr

2013-05-30, 08:54 PM

meby a fall baes attk bonis?

while I do enjoy anonymous GiTP forum goers insulting my inability to type correctly. I only mispelt a handful of words on my entire post. nothing even comparing to you on purpose and in a mockingway mispelling every sinlge word you type as a passive insult towards me

people like you are why just about everyday I wonder why i am even a part of this horrendous community.
Is it bad I was tempted to do the same thing?

Try Incarnum for soul power bs. You wear souls as magic items and channel them for stuff. The system is pretty thematically dumb, imo, but it sounds kinda close to what you wnt.

More to the point of what you want- try PF soulknife. I hear it is mechanically better, but as far as I care, if your actions are being wasted on swinging a weapon, you're probably a chump anyway. Wzrd4lyfe.
I second Incarnate. Don't let the poor BAB scare you away- you're way more versatile and, in all honesty, better at melee than a Soulknife (probably better at everything, to be honest).

ngilop

2013-05-30, 09:03 PM

Can we please stay on topic please

One Topic, One Thread
There should be only one active thread for a specific topic in most cases. Please check and see if there is already an active thread (one that has been posted on in the last six weeks) discussing a topic before posting a new one.

this thread is not about ' hey lets make a character that cna do the same thing as a soulknife'. but is instead a 'what are the shortcomings of the soulknife so that ngilop can maybe correct those and perhaps improved upon in his next set to-do homebrew'

You can give all teh 'seals of approval you want but herein this post earlier i did say

the community is only helpful to a certain few ive found out. other times people love to push their own agendas and go completly off topic on the threads they post on.
.

this is a case in point exactly from the very person handing out awards it seems. On those going after me. even if it is doing a perfect example of somethnig i called out that this forum does on a regualr basis.

I could not even make such a perfect example as this.

comes into my thread, hands out awards for people one of which was for a person saying
Insulting a community is not going to endear them very much into helping you. In regards to me saying that people on the forum go off topic all the time and push thier own agendas.

now said award presenter has done just that, went completely off topic and managed to get said person he/she gave the award to to also veer off topic of this thread.

You might have gotten some kind of reward, but in the end I am the true winner as the both of you have proven my exact words and in such a perfect example.

Waker

2013-05-30, 09:09 PM

While this is normally the part where I congratulate everyone on promoting the use of Incarnum, I'll try to focus on making the Soulknife better. Bear in mind that I'm not super well-read on Psionics, but I'll do what I can.
First off, how about tying Psychic Strike to being Psionically focused? Rather than spending a Move Action as normal or using a Swift Action as has been suggested, how about it's always on? You could do a little bit like what the Psychic Warrior does and perhaps make some special effects tied to expending your focus as well. Maybe expending your focus grants you an attack that mimics Whirlwind Attack? Or auto-crits? Or something else entirely.
Since the weapon is the big focus of the Soulknife, how about making it more customizable as well? Changing the enhancement bonuses and types are kinda obvious, but what about giving the option of putting Reach or Tripping on a Longsword Mindblade? Wouldn't it be cool if you could as an Immediate Action change your Mindblade into a Mindshield to gain bonus AC against an attack? You could make the Mindblade as something analogous to the Green Lantern's Ring and make it a multi-tool, within reason.

ngilop

2013-05-30, 09:15 PM

well, remember waker I do not like psionics so don't worry about that. the concept of the class is what i am after and ways to improve upon that mechanically. as since teh soul knife only is psionic in 'hey lookit mah mind knife, yo' and has no actual psionic abilities i think that would be easy enough.

I could work up a 3rd version of the class that uses incarnum that would be easy enough.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-05-30, 09:18 PM

Last time one of my players wanted to play a soulknife, I gave him an option - either a full BAB and gestalt with Lurk (CPsi) or tack on a Warblade's maneuver progression, with no access to White Raven, and get the Swordsage's Wisdom bonus to AC.

He chose the latter option, and it worked out pretty well. The striking part of the maneuvers helped enhance his combat prowess without worrying about his damage falling behind, and he loved how it played.

TheFallenOne

2013-05-30, 09:31 PM

~

You want a better Soulknife, as you like the concept but the crunch doesn't live up to it. And looking for ways to emulate the Soulknife fluff without actually going too much into the class is 'completely off topic'. Riiiiight.

Waker

2013-05-30, 09:42 PM

Were there any particular aspects of the class that you especially wanted to see implemented or expanded upon in the Soulknife? Or parts that you wanted excised?
Since the class doesn't really have much in the way of Psionic powers already, that is one aspect that we can ignore somewhat. It almost seems like the class has sort of a Monk vibe to it. Maybe give it Evasion or Mettle? The idea of giving it an AC bonus tied to a stat like Wisdom or Intelligence has some merit as well.

Feralventas

2013-05-30, 09:44 PM

Problems with the Soul Knife.
>It's primary Class Feature is "Sword" under a fancy title.

>It gets a small power-point pool and very little to do with it, particularly since many of the races that have any business taking levels in Soul Knife already have power points enough to set up Psionic Focus for the bonus feats it gets.

>The "Sword" it gets is weaker per level than the standard wealth-by-level that any fighter could have, while the fighter gets Feats enough to actually do it's job as a fighter.

>One of the main ways for a Soul Knife to get extra damage is from the Psychic Strike ability, which requires a Move Action to use. This means the Soul Knife trades extra attacks (and extra damage) for a single set of extra damage that doesn't come out to near as much as the attacks one gives up to use it. This harms their action economy and essentially means the ability is useless.

>It's a front-line fighting class with a D10HD, implying that it should be focusing on combat that it should be able to take a hit, but it lacks the full BAB to be able to compete with other front-liners; even a Swashbuckler/Rogue with Daring Outlaw can out-perform a soul-knife in both combat and skills.

So, here's some suggestions. First off, first and easiest option is to Gestalt the Soulknife into some other T4 or so class. Psychic Warrior works well in Psionic fluff, but Rogue, Swashbuckler or Ranger can work out very nicely in combination.

Additionally, you could shift the Swordsage's maneuver and stance progression, giving Soul Knife both a set of weapon-use abilities AND combat viability in ways that allow for single-attack actions as well as full attacks. Diamond Mind in particular works well in combination with the focus and discipline aspect of the Soul Knife.

Alternatively, here's some simple alterations that can help. There are also a plethora of "Soul Knife Fixes" which you can google rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.

1, raise the enhancement bonus of the weapon by 1 at all levels at which it has them, and raise the enhancement option likewise. This at least brings it's final form up to a +6 to hit and damage and +5's worth of weapon enhancements at level 20, putting the core feature of the class slightly ahead rather than slightly behind the normal +10 weapon at 20th level.

2, make Psychic Strike a Swift Action to use instead of a move action. This will allow for a full attack With the extra damage on all attacks, meaning that the ability functions and the Soul Knife's damage rises significantly to keep up with other front-liners like a Fighter or Barb.

3, full base attack bonus, because it should have had it in the first place.

4, Give them something to do with those power-points, and grant them bonus points according to their Int Modifier. This could be a number of things; a power known at certain levels, or using them as re-roll points when needed (cannot re-roll the same roll twice, must accept second roll if used). Maybe even giving them access to one Mantle as per Ardent that fits their characterization and perspective on the world.

As for the discourse off topic, just ignore it. All of you. Responding doesn't help, it's just feeding attention to something that ought to be swept under the carpet.

Gavinfoxx

2013-05-30, 09:48 PM

This is a good soulknife fix as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6128287#post6128287

Also Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weapon works too...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8904.0

And you do know that you can rename the psionic powers to fantasy names, and that they will actually fit fantasy magic in many fantasy books that aren't Dying Earth better than the normal D&D magic system?

Read this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002k

Or at the very least, this pdf of the actual changes:

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19444168/VancianToPsionicsBeta111.pdf

Would you use THOSE rules for magic? Look at those when you are looking at the psionics rules, and then realize that, in a profound way, they are really the same rules. Just have make your psychic warrior an arcane warrior, and his soulbound weapon, uh, his soulbound weapon, and name the powers as arcane or eldritch or whatever.

Fates

2013-05-30, 09:50 PM

merp

If you'll notice, there are still plenty of people talking about the soulknife, including practically every person you're complaining about. Would you please stop being so melodramatic and pay attention to the topic at hand? We're not all "selfish" and "agenda-pushing" up here in the playground, we're just chatty, so I beg of you, and everyone else, to just leave it alone.

Besides I thought the seal of approval was hilarious.

In my own games, I let my players use the pathfinder soulknife if they want. It really allows far more variation in the class' powers. I'm not usually all that fond of pathfinder's mechanics, but I think they did well by this class. It got a HD boost, a good BAB, better saves, a more powerful and versatile mind blade, and customizable powers every other level, besides the regular psychic strike and weapon enhancements. Many of these powers are actually very handy, and they include things like making your mind blade into any one weapon you want, making a mind shield, making your mind blade do elemental damage, letting you split your mind blade and throw it in a large area, and stuff like that.

mattie_p

2013-05-30, 09:58 PM

this thread is not about ' hey lets make a character that cna do the same thing as a soulknife'. but is instead a 'what are the shortcomings of the soulknife so that ngilop can maybe correct those and perhaps improved upon in his next set to-do homebrew'

You want a better Soulknife, as you like the concept but the crunch doesn't live up to it. And looking for ways to emulate the Soulknife fluff without actually going too much into the class is 'completely off topic'. Riiiiight.

Besides, we already tried to do this in Zinc Saucier 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12498407&postcount=49). We got three entries:

Cleric of Oghma 5 / Malkonvoker 9 / Cleric 6

Bard 3/ Battle Dancer 17

Warlock6/Mindbender1/Chameleon2/Warlock 11

AmberVael

2013-05-30, 10:01 PM

What's wrong with Soulknife?

Everything it grants falls into two categories:

1) Not worthwhile or useful.
2) Can be done better by another common method.

Mindblade? Easily outdone by a normal magic weapon in terms of enchantments... or worse, nearly matched by a wizard using a single spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) Yeah, it's not a great feature. All it has going for it is that its free. It gets too little too late.

Psychic Strike? The damage is outpaced by Sneak Attack and even the Warlock's eldritch blast every step of the way... and also takes an action to get up and running, and only functions once. Given that neither sneak attack or eldritch blast are considered very high damage abilities, unless specifically optimized for (which generally involves numerous attacks)... this is not a good thing.

Bladewind. Oh look, it's whirlwind attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#whirlwindAttack) This is pretty much the one feature of the soulknife that isn't just flat out awful. Instead, it's just kinda lousy. "At 9th level I can gain a fairly meh bonus feat that allows me to take care of lots of largely inconsequential mooks if I put myself in the middle of them all and make poorly armored self a target."
I mean, okay, I may be a bit hard there, but it's a very situational option. It's okay when Tome of Battle does it with Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane simply because it is so low investment there- it's one of many options that can be switched in and out as necessary. (Plus you can get it earlier, and both of those versions have added bonuses).
If it were part of a suite of options, I'd be more forgiving of it. But it's not. It's a single mediocre ability that cannot redeem the soulknife.

Knife to the Soul. Warblade got this 6 levels ago. Wizard got this 10 levels ago.
This is like Bladewind, it's too little, too late. It's just not enough, and it is at best comparable with a single option in the larger arsenal of other classes. Plus, at this point it is becoming way harder to justify giving up multiple attacks.

Multiple Throw. Are you kidding me. So at 17th level, the Soulknife gains the ability to make iterative ranged attacks. You know, like what anyone else using throwing weapons or a bow was doing since they actually GOT iterative attacks. This isn't a class feature, it's mockery in disguise.

Everything else I didn't mention about the Soulknife can pretty much be replicated by feats if they aren't feats already. Bad feats, mind you (weapon focus! Oh boy oh boy.)

So, what's wrong with Soulknife is that there is nothing right with Soulknife. It gets nothing worth having that you can't get somewhere else. Nothing. The only viable soulknife builds in official material don't use the soulknife class. Incidentally, some of THOSE soulknives are actually pretty decent.

eggynack

2013-05-30, 10:05 PM

http://imageshack.us/a/img854/1130/sealx.png

Hooray! My pedantry has officially won me the support of my peers. This is truly the most wonderful of occasions. For once, the winds of chance have favored me on my sally forth across the ocean of D&D high optimization. I can now aspire to push myself to greater and greater heights, and feel the pulsing force of humanity in my every breath.

More on topic, I don't know what's right about the soulknife. Their most important ability is always having a mediocre weapon. Weapon having isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world to do, so it's all just vaguely pointless. They can do some stuff with their weapon, but it's pretty much universally worse than what other melee guys are doing. As juntao noted, they have average BAB for some reason. Any fix has to start there. If you must work within the context of the class, then make their weapon better than what a fighter of equal level would have. I just don't know what archetype they're supposed to fill. They're rather like the monk in that way. I suppose that the first step in fixing the soulknife, would be figuring out what role you'd like them to fill.

Note: For those not in the know, purple stands for drama. I wouldn't have noted that, but it could have been read as sarcasm.

Waker

2013-05-30, 10:07 PM

zlefin

2013-05-30, 10:21 PM

You can use the class maker system I put in my sig; it has soul weapons, and you can easily make a class with it like a soul knife but waaaay stronger; mostly at least.

ngilop

2013-05-30, 10:28 PM

You want a better Soulknife, as you like the concept but the crunch doesn't live up to it. And looking for ways to emulate the Soulknife fluff without actually going too much into the class is 'completely off topic'. Riiiiight.

Its the complete opposite of what I want on this topic.

What you are doing is the same thing as one saying what does the monk get wrong, and then you proceed to build a'monk' that has no level in the actual monk class.

I specifically stated why I wanted this information. I wanted to know what I needed to fix, expand upon or add to the base chassis of the class for a homebrew I was making.

Now, sir, you tell me how your just spouting out random class combinations that do soulknife but better has any bearing at all on what I am looking for throughout this thread? I heartily loathe you now and forever. Have fun with your life.

Waker. LOl I was actualy going to call my fix a soulblade. dang you for reading my mind.

The changes I was thinking on makign in an earlier posts Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15338441&postcount=20) are they so far in the right direction?

TheFallenOne

2013-05-30, 10:44 PM

What you are doing is the same thing as one saying what does the monk get wrong, and then you proceed to build a'monk' that has no level in the actual monk class.

So? If someone likes the fluff of a monk, but not the crunch, what's wrong with suggesting they can have all they want and more by taking these few feats here, a bit of Swordsage there etc.? That is helpful advice if what you want is having a playable monk or here Soulknife. If all you wanted to do was brainstorming a piece of Homebrew you did certainly not express that anywhere clearly enough in the OP.

You are just mad that I approved of people who called you out for horrible spelling and hostile attitude. That you now loathe me forever for that just confirms one of those points, congratulations. Although you managed to express said loathing without a typo, something I heartily commend you for in all honesty and without irony. Maybe you can try harder after all.

SciChronic

2013-05-30, 10:45 PM

After thinking about it for a few more minutes, here is my idea for a new soulknife. I'm not going to include everything, just the new stuff.
1. Greater enhancement bonuses and enchantments.
2. Deal extra damage with Psychic Strike by being Psionically Focused.
3. Evasion or Mettle (Will saves).
4. Scaling AC bonus and add Int to AC (just to change it up.)
5. Soulblade- As the Soulblade levels they gain a number of Blade Points which can be used to shape a Soulblade. Forming a Shortsword costs 1 point, Longsword 2 points...Adding the Reach quality to a Soulblade costs 3 points...Blade Points are not spent, they are merely invested. Each time a Soulknife shapes a Soulblade, they decide which form and qualities of their Soulblade.
6. Soulshield- The Soulknife learns to shape their psychic powers into a more defensive form. Rather than taking the form of a weapon, their Blade Points can now be spent to shape a shield. A Light Shield costs 1 point, Heavy Shield 2 points...A Soulknife may shape both a Soulblade and Soulshield at the same time.
7. Soultool- The Soulknife learns to form precise tools to adapt to changing environments. Shaping a standard item like a crowbar costs 1 point, masterwork tools cost...The Soulknife may use extra Blade Points to increase the competence bonus granted by an item formed.

The blade points idea is interesting, but is counter productive on the optimization front. Once you can form a greatsword, why waste points on a shield? Also, a 1st level fighter can use a greatsword just fine, but a soulknife would have to wait till level 4-6 at minimum to do the same.

as for the int scaling to AC, it would have to be wis, otherwise going into the Soulbow PrC would be counter productive, it also combats their fluff about solidarity of mind strong enough to create a weapon form it. Giving wis scaling in general would be nice for soulknives. does it increase MAD? yes, but it also solidifies their fluff. being a soulknife with a 6 for wis counteracts their own nature, if any wizard can easily bend my mind to their will, how is it strong enough to create the blade?

the utility ring is essentially just shapesand :smallannoyed:

-change their strong reflex saves to weak, and make fortitude strong
-give full BAB
-grant iterative throws the level they get to throw mindblades (turning soulbow into such mastery of this that they can shoot their mindblades as if it was an arrow)
-grant medium and maybe heavy armor proficiency
-grant all shield proficiency (except tower)
-grant all simple and martial weapoin proficiency
-grant shape mindblade at level 1, and have mindblade retain that form until reshaped (rather than always forming a shortsword, then shaping it)
-allow the mindblade to be shaped into any piercing/slashing weapon, exotics would require the proficiency to use effectively.
-grant soulknives bonus feat progression istead of psychic strike or improve psychic strike progression and remove the living,non-mindless requirement, turning the bonus damage into force damage
-grant knife to the soul earlier
-scale the enhancement bonuses properly
-make the enhancement a liquid flat bonus, so at 10th level you can have any combination resulting in a +4 total enhancement (i.e.: shocking flaming frost acidic mindblade, or +4 mindblade, or +1 speed mindblade, etc.)
-make the breaking of a mindblade mean something rather than just being able to remake one the next round. Mind blades are a physical manifestation of your mind, having that break should have repercussions. Maybe hardness equal to 5+wis modifier, and triple your character level in HP. Upon breaking you are dazed for 1d4 + enhancement bonus - wis modifier rounds.
-grant bladewind earlier or give options to take something else such as a bonus feat

those are just my starting thoughts to improve mindblade to something other than just above truenamer tier

That is helpful advice if what you want is having a playable monk(read: swordsage) or here Soulknife.

the reason people are giving examples of other classes doing the same thing is because soulknife in itself is a terrible classes. Other classes can do exactly what it was meant to do, but better. When you have to hollow out almost everything in a class, rearrange it, and add stuff on top of that just to make a class at all useful, there's something wrong with the class.

Feralventas

2013-05-30, 10:50 PM

I specifically stated why I wanted this information. I wanted to know what I needed to fix, expand upon or add to the base chassis of the class for a homebrew I was making.

The changes I was thinking on makign in an earlier posts Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15338441&postcount=20) are they so far in the right direction?

Honestly, I misunderstood your intent as well, though since my first post just outlined the flaws of the class in the first place I don't think I strayed too far from what you'd asked for. Still, it's not hard to see why TFO isn't answering the question you asked.

That said, the fluff about where a class's power comes from doesn't require a great deal of mechanical changes. I could just as easily play a character with the soul-knife's fluff while using the Warlock's class chasis, for example. For the purpose of COMPLETELY removing the psionic influence, I'd advise that you remove the bonus psionic feats (Speed of Thought, Wild Talent) for things that grant a magical form of inner power rather than psionic (even if I still think there's no actual direct link between the mechanics and the fluff provided).

Incarnum has been mentioned, and there are feats to grant soul-melds from that particular source. Heritage feats can grant spells and utilities to make up for Soulknife's lack there of. Simply making them bonus combat feats would make it easier for them to pick up combat options as appropriate. You might also consider giving them access to Craft Wondrous Item, with their class level used in place of a caster level and mitigating spell requirements as per the warlock's feature with the fluff being that such crafted constructs are manifested through constant, concentrated focus of the same sort that crafts their weapon, putting a little of that inner fire into the object in question (xp cost) to keep it stable even after the fact. Might even be worth considering a crafting reserve as per Artificer.

FleshrakerAbuse

2013-05-30, 10:52 PM

Its the complete opposite of what I want on this topic.

What you are doing is the same thing as one saying what does the monk get wrong, and then you proceed to build a'monk' that has no level in the actual monk class.

I specifically stated why I wanted this information. I wanted to know what I needed to fix, expand upon or add to the base chassis of the class for a homebrew I was making.

Now, sir, you tell me how your just spouting out random class combinations that do soulknife but better has any bearing at all on what I am looking for throughout this thread? I heartily loathe you now and forever. Have fun with your life.
Waker. LOl I was actualy going to call my fix a soulblade. dang you for reading my mind.

The changes I was thinking on makign in an earlier posts Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15338441&postcount=20) are they so far in the right direction?

Um... kay.... Well, I'd suggest staying away from saying "I loathe you". Most of the posters here just, as the others have said, are pretty chatty and occasionally like joking.

Although, Fallen One, your points might be accurately, but there's nothing wrong with softening the blows.

Anyways, do you want a combo that has the same fluff as the class itself, or changes to the original base? The fix you have with improved BAB and kensai-like abilties work well. Allowing maybe a swift action for their psychic strike and maybe some kind of recovery mechanic, might allow for usefulness. Giving maybe some maneuver-like abilities is another way to help, with buffs and making it so they don't require movement like normal tome of battle types.

Phippster

2013-05-30, 10:52 PM

Actually, looking at how any type of build they make to replicate a Soulknife and what they use to do so could actually be very beneficial to you in constructing a new Soulknife class. After all, you want to know what the Soulknife does wrong, and the fact that they can make a class which mimics the Soulknife, or rather blows the Soulknife out of the water, suggests that the Soulknife more or less does everything wrong.

That being said, building a better Soulknife would likely entail most of the obvious suggestions that have been made. Either keep their 3/4 BAB and make them a utility/skill monkey character with 6 - 8 SP a level, or give them full BAB and a weapon that might actually manage to be useful in some fashion.

As for ways to amp up the power, I for one enjoy the idea of invocations on the class, refluffed as the power of his soul manifesting itself as opposed to the powers of some outside force. Considering the warlock gets too few invocations anyway, granting it 10-13 invocations along with some ToB maneuvers creates a rather versatile class that can hold its own in a variety of situations; the very definition of a Tier 3 class.

Feralventas

2013-05-30, 10:57 PM

So? If someone likes the fluff of a monk, but not the crunch, what's wrong with suggesting they can have all they want and more by taking these few feats here, a bit of Swordsage there etc.? That is helpful advice if what you want is having a playable monk or here Soulknife. If all you wanted to do was brainstorming a piece of Homebrew you did certainly not express that anywhere clearly enough in the OP.

While I applaud the idea of "use a class that makes the concept work better," that is exactly the opposite of what the thread was intended. If you read the OP carefully, you'll see that what Ngilop is actually saying is that they Dislike the psionic fluff that the soul-knife is attached to, but likes the actual base system of the class itself; they're aware of the short-comings of the class, and are looking for augmentations to make to the system to make it work better with a non-psionic kick to it.

The goal is not to make soulknife from good working mechanics, it's the make the mechanics of the class work better it stands while cutting away the fluff for something else.

Responses on Both sides of this particular discussion could stand to be more civil.

Spuddles

2013-05-30, 11:05 PM

http://imageshack.us/a/img854/1130/sealx.png

Can't we build a character with the Soulknife fluff while only dipping the class and getting most abilities from those that are actually worth taking?

This is the first time I got a seal of approval. I feel honored. :smallsmile: (Even if I do have to share it. :smallannoyed:)

Can we cut the circlejerk?

Ok so basically the Soul Knife suffers from the same ailment as fighters "does not do what it says on the tin'

SO steal some coolness from teh eknsai make it a Full BAB good fort good will class

so bump teh cool item ness down to start at 3rd and maybe increase the rate at which it improves

bladewind needs to be lower and instead of a full round make it a standard

And give it a bonus feat progression.

now that is the combat outlook. where can the soul knife be improved out of combat? of course 4 SP/level is my minimum on all my non int based classes. but what sort of out of combat abilities can we give.

I do enjoy your idea of making it like a duskblade DMverdani. but actual spell casting is a a little too similar to other classes, but Invocations on the other hand.. I think they would fit perfectly with the inner power fighter. but I might be in the minority here.

Well, what do you want a soulknife to do?
In my mind, there are the following roles:
face- blah blah blah look at me
damage- you have HPs, I take them from you
range- pew pew pew mother****er
melee- dey stabbin everyone
utility- teleport says lol to your rails, GM (lock picks are for losers)
control- chains (with spikes!), grease, black tentacles- generally pretty kinky
support- drop the bass, get +10d6 fire damage
tank- how do you like my face to your fist style?

If you are making a T1 class, pick like all of them. If you are going for T3, pick 3 or 4.

So what 4 do you want soulknife to have? I would go primarily melee, damage, tank, and control.

Damage- that one is easy. It has magic weapon as a class feature and give it some bonus damage dice. Scale the dice so both TWF & THF are viable. Because that stuff should be a thematic choice, not a min-max problem.

Melee means it needs tumble, good fort (poison, mummy rot, etc), good AC, and a way to close the gap with enemies, and a d10 HD. Oh and full BAB.

Tank. It needs a way to survive being hit with nasty stuff- evasion, mettle, divine grace, immunities, resistances, DR. Crap like that.

Control. Some consider this part of tanking- needing to pose as a legitimate threat. High damage per round is usually good enough, but some control would help. Abilities that reduce enemy mobility are good. Trip happens to be mechanically the best in 3.5, but it doesn't have to be that way if other feasible options were added. Mage Slayer is pretty good, as is thicket of blades. Those prevent defensive casting and 5foot steps, respectively.

Is it bad I was tempted to do the same thing?

I second Incarnate. Don't let the poor BAB scare you away- you're way more versatile and, in all honesty, better at melee than a Soulknife (probably better at everything, to be honest).

Incarnum feels like a bizarre hodgepodge of abilities and isn't very coherent, imo. Easy to optimize, but doesn't make much sense because you've got like chimera legs, an arificers monocle, and extra arms, oh and you shoot manticore spines.

You want a better Soulknife, as you like the concept but the crunch doesn't live up to it. And looking for ways to emulate the Soulknife fluff without actually going too much into the class is 'completely off topic'. Riiiiight.

It's pretty off topic. Like "how can I make this monk I am playing better?" and the inevitable response is "reroll swordsage/cleric/wizard."

This is a good soulknife fix as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6128287#post6128287

Also Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weapon works too...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8904.0

And you do know that you can rename the psionic powers to fantasy names, and that they will actually fit fantasy magic in many fantasy books that aren't Dying Earth better than the normal D&D magic system?

Read this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002k

Or at the very least, this pdf of the actual changes:

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19444168/VancianToPsionicsBeta111.pdf

Would you use THOSE rules for magic? Look at those when you are looking at the psionics rules, and then realize that, in a profound way, they are really the same rules. Just have make your psychic warrior an arcane warrior, and his soulbound weapon, uh, his soulbound weapon, and name the powers as arcane or eldritch or whatever.

That intrigues me. Gonna have to check those out. I also like how you always have links.

Here's a link for the PF soulknife: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife

Psyren says it's better, but I can't remember why.