[PF] How do I make a competant Synthesist Barbarian?

[Crimson Shark]

I'm about to start my very first Pathfinder campaign (though I've played 3.0 and 4.0 before, so I'm not totally lost), and I'm trying to figure out how to play a competent synthesist.

(I specify "competent", because the majority of the folks I'm playing with have never held a d20 in their life, and I don't want to overshadow them. For the record, the party is: Human Oracle, Dwarf Fighter, Human Ninja, Elf Ranger, Human Sorcerer, Human Cleric, Half-elf Druid, and me, Half-elf Synthesist Summoner).

I am looking to play a tanky melee character who relies on manufactured weapons rather than natural ones, and intend to use the Eidolon for its passive abilities rather than its natural attacks.

My question to you optimizers, is, what would the best way for me to do this? I'd been leaning towards Barbarian (hence the title of this thread), but every time I try to plan advancement past 1st level, I get hopelessly lost, without a good idea of how to do so. (Unfortunately for me, I know next to nothing about pathfinder, and it's been nearly a decade since I last touched 3.0)

Is a Synthesist / Barbarian viable? How many levels of Synthesist should I take? (I see natural break-points at 3rd, 4th, and 7th level) Is Barbarian the best option to expand my melee options? Would Fighter or Ranger be better?

I suppose the only other relevant bit of info are my ability scores (we rolled for them).


STR 13
DEX 11
CON 13 (+2 Racial)
INT 11
WIS 17
CHA 14

While Fused (Quadruped)

STR 16 (includes Ability Increase - Strength)
Dex 14
Con 13
INT 11
WIS 17
CHA 14


As mentioned previously, I have very little experience with Pathfinder, so I'll take pretty much any suggestions you can give!

Thanks in advance!

[Frosty]

First of all...why are you building a barbarian type character with 17 WIS? :smallconfused:

[Crimson Shark]

First of all...why are you building a barbarian type character with 17 WIS? :smallconfused:

Playing a Synthesist summoner means I replace my character's physical scores with those of my Eidolon's, for better or for worse. (This is why the 13 / 11 / 13 becomes 16 / 14 / 13 ).

I could put my 17 in Strength or Con... but as soon as I activated my Eidolon, it'd drop back down. So it was a tossup of whether to put the 17 in Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence. If you want to make an argument for Int or Cha instead, I'm open to it.

[stack]

I don't think rage will boost your eidolon's stats, so I'm not sure what barbarian is bringing to the table that you wouldn't be better served getting elsewhere. You could just go synthesist straight through, grabbing +STR, +NA, and utility evolutions (flight, etc).

Check with your DM if he'll allow casting without the arms evolution when you're bound to the eidolon. Could toss on two paladin levels for awesome saves and a smite (more smites if you take oath of vengeance). I'd put the 17 in CHA in that case. Also, swap the base STR and CON. You don't want CON going down if you lose the suit and STR doesn't matter. Put the Racial on CHA. (Unless you rolled IN ORDER, in which case...tough luck). Take the alternate racial that gets you +2 will saves as well, can't have your suit getting dismissed.

[SSGoW]

Ok so what you should have done...

Rage Power/Archetype to let your mount Rage ... Make you ediolon rage with you... Charge!

[Barstro]

I don't think rage will boost your eidolon's stats, so I'm not sure what barbarian is bringing to the table that you wouldn't be better served getting elsewhere.

Have to agree with that.

I'm pretty sure the build strategy with a synthesist is to not multi-class or else find a class that doesn't improve the physical stats, at it's a waste.

Do you have a specific problem with straight synthesis melee?

[Prime32]

I don't think rage will boost your eidolon's statsIt does; there's nothing to stop an eidolon from gaining morale bonuses. Likewise for +stat items.

You'll want the Pounce evolution as soon as possible, and Mount could be interesting if another party member's willing to go with it. Skilled (Intimidate) could be great in conjunction with stuff like Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat).

The eidolon anchoring harness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/harness-eidolon-anchoring) can make you a bit more tanky, especially since your summons won't be that great.

[Crimson Shark]

It does; there's nothing to stop an eidolon from gaining morale bonuses. Likewise for +stat items.


That was my reading as well. And I'll even go one better, the DM's explicitly allowed it, should I decide to MC Barbarian!

[Crimson Shark]

Have to agree with that.

I'm pretty sure the build strategy with a synthesist is to not multi-class or else find a class that doesn't improve the physical stats, at it's a waste.

Do you have a specific problem with straight synthesis melee?

Other than not having any idea on how to build one that doesn't focus on natural attacks, nope!

[stack]

If not focused on natural attacks, you can go for a slugger or a kali-build (lots of arms and light weapons). I would tend to prefer starting biped and getting reach, plus the obvious strength and size increases. Wouldn't ever take huge though, since you will want to be able to get around in tight spaces without unsummoning your suit. You should be able to get plenty of damage two-handing a reach weapon. Grab combat reflexes, combat patrol, etc.

[Barstro]

It does; there's nothing to stop an eidolon from gaining morale bonuses. Likewise for +stat items.


My reading is as follows;
Barbarian/Fighter: Barbarian gets the bonus. Since the Barbarian and Fighter are the same person, any bonuses to stats affect Fighter abilities too.

Barbarian/Synthsist. Barbarian gets the bonus. Barbarian and Synthesis are same person, so Synthesist gets any bonuses. The Eidolon is still only a meat suit that the Synthesist wears and doesn't get the bonus. (Much like harmful size affecting spells, this needs to be specifically addressed by Paizo)

Item enhancement is different, since the Eidolon uses the item slot as well.

Edit: I'd also rule that a power that increased party member ability scores would increase the meat-suit.

But, your DM may decide differently. :smallwink:


Read the Summoner Guide for build ideas. I think a Biped with single weapon is a great choice. If going Quad, I'd stick with natural attacks (I'm a huge fan of single bite attack with Trip attached)

[grarrrg]

Start with a level or two of Synthesist, since you're dumping your physical stats, this is necessary. You'll have to rely on Simple Weapons for the first couple levels until you take the 1st level of Barbarian.

Then I'd take 2 levels of Invulnerable Rager Barbarian, for the DR 1/- and Rage Power.
Granted, your Rage Powers will never be that strong, but having the option is nice, and you can always pick up a 2nd if desired through the Extra Rage Power feat.

From there, mostly focus on Synthesist levels, as you'll get the most use out of them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You should have as much Synthesist and as little Barbarian as possible, ideally. Synthesist is quite capable all on its own, really.

I know level 1 would be rough, but if you are dipping Barb at all, it should be at level 1 so your maxed hp is on the d12 HD. Going 2 levels like grarrrg said for rage power access is fine (though the ones w/o level requirements are pretty slim pickings), but I would NOT go Invulnerable Rager if dipping barbarian. DR 1/- is not worth the loss of uncanny dodge, IMO.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Don't Multi-class.

You are already a top tank with a Synthesist build. In general Eidolons are top tanks. And there's no bottom line for you in multi-classing to another tank class. Why? Observe:


The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores.

All your Eidolon Abilities are tied to your Summoner Class Level. The two lines underlined details will effectively not stack with other classes. Those d12s you will only get them after your d10 HD Eidolon is dead and you go back but you take a major debuff to get them with min/maxing the evil evil stat swapping. And your BAB will potentially retrograde while using your Eidolon.

On top of that you will loose Evolution points from your Eidolon which means fewer to put toward more attacks, more stat boosts, Large size, Flight, and a other abilities.

And you will be carving into your spell list full of early entry spells. Haste is a second level spell on your list available at level 4. Dimension Door at level 7 sets you up to take the Dimensional Dervish feat at level 11 AKA Pounce+ Spring Attack + Teleporting.

Synthesist Summoners are the some of the best tanks in the game on their own.

If really want to do a Barbarian Gish instead I might look at the Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple prestige classes. Those still require care though. Generally in PF multiclassing is only for very specific purposes as far more features are tied to class level now.

[Prime32]

All your Eidolon Abilities are tied to your Summoner Class Level. The two lines underlined details will effectively not stack with other classes. Those d12s you will only get them after your d10 HD Eidolon is dead and you go back but you take a major debuff to get them with min/maxing the evil evil stat swapping. And your BAB will potentially retrograde while using your Eidolon.The designers have declared that your BAB from each class is separate, and effects originating from the class itself only modify its own BAB, regardless of their actual wording. Or something like that, but the point is that Fused Eidolon and Flurry of Blows can't reduce your BAB.

Also you will be using those d12s to absorb any killing blows to the eidolon into your own hit points via Fused Link, keeping it alive as long as possible.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But when you level up in synthesis, it's like getting 1d8 + 1d10 HD, with double Con bonus. Granted, the eidolon's d10 and con doesn't increase *every* level, but still over all the levels enough to be more hp than you would get from d12 hit dies and con bonus once.

Synthesist is the best melee warrior in the game for a lot of reasons including pounce, tremendous size, str, and reach, and the ability to freely chain combat maneuvers off its regular attack routine that does damage. Yet another of them is having the highest pool of hit points in a single "creature" that is possible.

EDIT: I guess I should point out, if you missed it. You're allowed to burn your own hp to keep the bio suit around with 1 hp. And can then use the lesser eidolon healing spell wand after combat to get your temp hp back. So as long as your normal hp total + biosuit's temp hp > 1, you're all set.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The designers have declared that your BAB from each class is separate, and effects originating from the class itself only modify its own BAB, regardless of their actual wording. Or something like that, but the point is that Fused Eidolon and Flurry of Blows can't reduce your BAB.

Also you will be using those d12s to absorb any killing blows to the eidolon into your own hit points via Fused Link, keeping it alive as long as possible.

Brain fart on the HP, but then I don't play the archetype because I consider it pure cheese.

The problem with the BAB is were looking at swapping from a different form not a special ability, compare the stats. That's enough context difference I want to ask if there's an answer on the Synthesist. The Monk answer only speaks to Flurry so you have +18 after penalty if you go into fighter, the same answer would on close reading not grant you the full extra flurry attacks for example just the BAB. (I'd be a little surprised if there was since Synthesist seems to be as closed to banned as PF gets)

Still think its not worth it from the loss of e-points and spells