8-Player Group...

[Regitnui]

As the thread title says, I have an eight-player party. Two of the group are leaving in a month, leaving us with a more normal-sized group, but until then I have eight. It's not worth splitting this into two 4-player groups, precisely because two of them are leaving.

So does anyone have any tips? Have any of the playgrounders run a game for a large-than-normal group?

[Jett Midknight]

The most I've ever done is 7 and my god was it a nightmare. Basically all I can say is never underestimate their strength. It didn't help that our fighter took some really high damage output feats, but by level 7 they could basically take down a CR 16 demon with hardly any loss, (the rouge ended up dying, but thats because he tried to move out of position to score the finishing kill and got crited.) Anyway instead of throwing one large monster at them you really just have to fight numbers with numbers. Also throw things at them to keep them off balance. Try and separate them, or have more enemies show up from behind their lines in the middle of a fight.

As for a non-combat, it can become very obvious that some of the less vocal players feel left out, so always try and keep all the party engage, even if it means addressing a player out of character to try and get them involved.

[gurgleflep]

I haven't personally ran a game larger than 3, but I've been in one with (including the DM) 10. The only thing I can really suggest is: make sure there's enough room and enough food :smalleek:

[CRtwenty]

See if one of the players wants to be a Co-DM. They can run some NPCs and help control creatures in combat. It also lets the game keep going while one DM looks up rules and such.

[Regitnui]

The most I've ever done is 7 and my god was it a nightmare. Basically all I can say is never underestimate their strength. It didn't help that our fighter took some really high damage output feats, but by level 7 they could basically take down a CR 16 demon with hardly any loss, (the rouge ended up dying, but thats because he tried to move out of position to score the finishing kill and got crited.) Anyway instead of throwing one large monster at them you really just have to fight numbers with numbers. Also throw things at them to keep them off balance. Try and separate them, or have more enemies show up from behind their lines in the middle of a fight.

As for a non-combat, it can become very obvious that some of the less vocal players feel left out, so always try and keep all the party engage, even if it means addressing a player out of character to try and get them involved.

This is what I've been most concerned about, besides the fact that dungeons aren't typically large enough for eight characters to walk down a passage at once...

I've written a campaign that involves fighting shiploads (literally) of pirates. that should keep them challenged.


I haven't personally ran a game larger than 3, but I've been in one with (including the DM) 10. The only thing I can really suggest is: make sure there's enough room and enough food :smalleek:

I've got enough chairs around my gaming table. The food I've outsourced, allowing them to bring their own.


See if one of the players wants to be a Co-DM. They can run some NPCs and help control creatures in combat. It also lets the game keep going while one DM looks up rules and such.

That's an idea I hadn't thought of. Perhaps i'll get one of the female players to do the female NPCs, just for a little more verisimilitude. I also have a 'second-in-command', but he's one of the two leaving in a month.:smallfrown:

[Slipperychicken]

Make sure they don't split up, or else you will have very bored players. I once played an 8-10 player game, the DM of which loved party splittage. Most of the characters had never met each other until the final boss. It was terrible.



I've written a campaign that involves fighting shiploads (literally) of pirates. that should keep them challenged.


That sounds like an awesome campaign.

[Crake]

See if one of the players wants to be a Co-DM. They can run some NPCs and help control creatures in combat. It also lets the game keep going while one DM looks up rules and such.

I strongly support this idea. I was part of a group with 8 players before and the DM was pretty new, so I offered to co-DM and it helped things move more smoothly (although that's a relative term, it was still grindingly slow)

It might be worth it to split up the group initially and the session before the two players leave have a climactic joint session where the two leaving betray the party or something fun? Maybe have the two that are leaving "infiltrate" each half-party group? The possibilities are endless

[Sugashane]

I've ran an 11 player group for about 8 months before. It can be hectic but there are a few ways to work around it.

1- Limit monsters. Have a few bigger monsters to get the rounds to go faster. Don't get jump the AC on the monsters up much but don't be afraid to add some hit points or a favorable condition (like higher ground). If there is serious OP work, this can make it more challenging. Just refuse cheese that will make one player dramatically more dangerous than all the others, such as an Ubercharger.

2- Use a timer in battles. I have two cheap 1-minute hourglasses. When it is a PC's turn, I flip it. He/she has one minute to get whatever info he/she needs, decide a course of action, and start rolling. If they haven't rolled their first roll by the time that minute goes by, then they froze for the round and lost their action. Obviously if they declare full attack and haven't made the final roll or two that isn't an issue, they just must have initiated their course of action within that minute. PC's pay MUCH better attention when they have the time window, and there is none of the "What's going on" or "Where am I" questions. While most think if you have 12 PCs and 8 monsters that a round takes 20 minutes, that is the max time, and when they focus on the battle and what their PCs do, this time is drastically dropped. I have also used the egg timer to annoy the PCs on occasion. That damn bell ringing right before they make the roll really makes for some hilarious dropped faces, and in a big battle when the BBEG is almost beaten, that ticking can make the battle seem that much more dramatic. :smallbiggrin:

3- Use miniatures, tabs, soda caps with their first letter of their first name, anything. Always have a layout of their marching order, so they can have an idea of how far from monster A they are and if area attacks, charges, flanking, etc will apply. Up to 4-5 can be done in your head, after that keeping everything in order gets dizzying, and avoids the "No I was 30 feet further back, so I wasn't in the spells area of effect."

4- Mounted combatants. Saves time, one roll for initiative, both attack on the same round, etc. If not, you can use the "strike force" method, and roll for however many creatures there are, and stick with the lowest or average. They move as a tactical unit, and attack as one.

5- Dry erase board for the group and one for you. Keeping initiative visible so you don't have to keep calling it out, and you can have monsters A, B, C, and D's hit points kept neatly updated. If your handwriting stinks, pencil still works better I have found. Dry erase with nicer handwriting keeps from having to flip through a few papers constantly though.

6- Skip some of the fluff. If a pair wants to go scavenging for food or fishing, roll a d20. If its not a 1-2, they have no indecent, and roll to see their success. "Cool, you guys catch 10 fish in just over two hours." They can now go to the restroom, get a soda, etc while you do the other PCs. Saves a lot of time.

7- Make certain parts of the quests time dependent. Be it retrieving a royal ring that was just stolen, and it must be back to the palace before noon in two days for the wedding, or getting the special components of a spell to an archmage before the new moon fades for another year, set time restraints restricts some of the game-halting fluff of searching through farmer's sheds, trying to bed beer-wenches, etc.

8- Try to get them to do a "buddy system" if they are splitting up in a dungeon/cave/castle/Kardashian house. Keeping 2 groups of three going separate ways is easier than three sets of two PCs, which is easier than six spreading out. Giving them a chance out of nowhere to roll a WIS check to feel it is better for "safety in numbers" allows you to give them that slight push to let them make the game go smoother and easier for you, and eliminate on downtime for several players. Just make the DC low so it seems obvious.

9- Keep all the players interested. We had two archers in my large party, 2-3 arcane characters, 2 divine casters, a druid, a rogue, and the rest were basically melee only. That makes it difficult to have them all attack just 2-3 monsters at times, so I began having 2-3 flying creatures, or an enemy's archers on a 70 foot ledge. So that allowed the arches to shoot at them without risking injuring their comrades, arcane spellcasters were able to buff or blast either the grounded monsters or airborne monsters, dive casters could heal, buff, or melee, and melee fighters could do... well, melee. After a few fights, someone generally becomes the leader of the group and begins directing attacks, allowing each to make their own contribution and maximize efficiency. For the miniatures, I just put whatever is flying or up high on a soda cap, quarter, or d6 just to show it is elevated. We had a few really cool battles play out from them pre-planning their attack tactics.

10- Let the PCs know, THEY make the game fast or slow. If they want a hack and slash type game, they are the only ones who can make it happen. If they want to sit and roleplay their characters in the town for 3 hours, then they are the ones who limit their actual adventuring. Having a sort of responsibility to their own game tends to get most more serious about the game, and gets some of them to do their own policing of a PC or two that drag the game out with non-game related talk. My rule was if I had to tell you to get into character, or ask you to put away your Magic cards, you PSP or whatever 3 times in a night, you left and were not allowed to play the next week. Actually the kid with the PSP being played I just kicked out of the group outright for the week, but make it a point of them knowing that wasting your time or the other players' time is disrespectful, and its not worth your time to babysit.

11- Limit separate actions by animal companions, familiars, etc. Had a lady who wanted to be a Beast Master or whatever so she could have 3 wolves with her, and we already had a paladin with a celestial mount, two familiars, and a cleric that always summoned creatures. That would be a minimum of 5 more actions per round, which with the time restrain isn't as bad, but can add up over a month of sessions. Prefer quality over quantity when it comes to extra combatants. I had the PCs roll their initiative and they and their mount, familiar, or animal companion would go. Whoever had the higher DEX was who went first, just how I ruled it.



Hope these help, they were just a few I could remember off the top of my head. After an hour or two or a battle or two you'll catch you rhythm and find what you like. It seems much scarier or hectic than it really is.

[Regitnui]

That sounds like an awesome campaign.

I'm planning on writing it up into a... what do you call it... saga guide? Campaign record? Anyway, we'll see.


(tl;edited down)

Hope these help, they were just a few I could remember off the top of my head. After an hour or two or a battle or two you'll catch you rhythm and find what you like. It seems much scarier or hectic than it really is.

Oh, these are gold!:smallbiggrin: Thank you. I'm definitely going to enforce the minute/round rule once my players have the hang of it.

[Matticussama]

I run a 7-player game, and 4 of them have some form of animal companion/cohort. It wad definitely an adjustment.

On top of what most people have said, which I generally agree with, my biggest suggestion is to avoid single monster fights. The action economy is simply too far against a single creature to be able to last more than one round. You'll generally need to double the number of creatures to give them an actual challenge; so if you want a CR 4 encounter for the group, have 2 Minotaur instead of 1. If people have animal companions, cohorts, etc or the party is decently optimized then either further increase the number or optimize the monsters.

If you want to have a single big enemy and don't want higher level minions to steal their thunder, give them lots of weaker minions to support them - but use mass combat tactics (like arrow volleys from Heroes of Battle) so that those large groups don't take up very much time. Use terrain to the enemy's advantage, especially in a dungeon; it is their home, they aren't going to enter combat on an even playing field.

For example: if you want them to fight a dragon, don't just put a dragon there. Give the dragon 5 - 10 low-level minions (probably Kobolds). Use the mass volley rules from Heroes of Battle; rather than rolling 5 - 10 separate minion attacks, most of which would normally miss, you just have them fire ranged attacks into an area forcing the players to roll reflex saves versus an arrow volley. Use terrain and positioning so that it takes more than a single fireball to take them out. So not only do the players have to worry about the dragon's breath weapons and attacks, but also arrow volleys which can start stacking up damage if the players try to ignore them.

[Kyberwulf]

I have run games like that before.
Just remember

Use a timer system. It helps alot. Give them 30 seconds to come up with an idea.
If they say anything Ooc, make it so that their characters say roughly the same thing. It helps speed things up by making sure they don't Talk OoC about things that happen during their daily lives. With that many people, you have to cut the socialization out.
Don't let people shout out actions for other characters. This usually bogs down turns, because they are discussion Metagame tactics.
Kick people out of the game if they aren't investing any interest in the game. I know this sounds harsh, but if there are that many people there isn't that much time for dilly dally. Have them go do something else away from the game. Don't allow them to cut into the game for jokes, to talk about any tactics, or to be attention hogs. I have had alot of games get bogged down because people start Movie reference wars.

[TypoNinja]

I every game I've ever been in that had 5 or more PC's descended into chaos (of varying degrees). With that many people the time between turns gets long enough that people start doing other things, side conversation, phones come out, you name it.

You will need some method of maintaining order unless you have an exceptionally self disciplined group there.

[Regitnui]

Going on that optimizing monsters idea, is there anywhere I could find a mummy with optimized level progression for Blood of Vol cleric? I plan to have it/her as a recurring opponent.

[molten_dragon]

As the thread title says, I have an eight-player party. Two of the group are leaving in a month, leaving us with a more normal-sized group, but until then I have eight. It's not worth splitting this into two 4-player groups, precisely because two of them are leaving.

So does anyone have any tips? Have any of the playgrounders run a game for a large-than-normal group?

It's a tough thing to do. I've run for (and played in) a group of 10 in college, and it kind of sucked. People got bored and would wander off, start doing other things, etc.

To keep things in line you're going to need to be kind of a dictator. Set down some clear rules for the group. No playing with laptops/tablets/smartphones, keep conversation focused on the game, and no more than 15 seconds on your turn to decide what you're doing, otherwise you delay your action or get skipped.

Make sure you have your stuff together well too so you aren't wasting people's time. Have your monster's stats printed out ahead of time, or the pages in the monster manual marked.

[Sky_Schemer]

I've been a player in a group of 8 to 9 for the past decade and we've run a couple of campaigns in that time. Because most of us are married and/or have families we only play once a month, which means that there is a lot of pressure to run the thing as efficiently as possible so that we don't waste any session time. There are quite a few things the DM and the players can do to help make such a large group workable.

1. Scale your enemies/opponents.

a. Increase the number of enemies. Our DM has used several methods of challenging our large party and has found that this works best because it scales everything in the encounter: attacks, damage, threats, etc., and not just one or two aspects of it. Have the added enemies appear in waves, and spread the party out. Time things to take advantage of poor positioning. This really works and it makes combat exciting and dangerous.

b. If you can't logically increase the enemy count because it's a unique creature, then add lower-level minions. This takes more work on your part of course.

c. If you can't do 1a or 1b, then add HP but be aware that this is not as effective as it sounds. Sure, combat will last longer but the primary fighters can still swarm and overwhelm while the spell casters provide support and healing safely from a distance. It's not exciting and players will get bored. Monsters that just soak up damage and actions are not fun.

d. Resist the urge to increase class levels on opponents. In D&D levels have a non-linear impact, especially for spell casters. It's tough to do this right.

Make sure you scale the loot, too. This is something our current campaign is not doing well.

2. Be religious about using miniatures/tokens, a grid to keep track of what is where, initiative order, marching orders, watch schedule at night, etc. With a large group, these details really matter.

3. Limit the number of expansion packs and add-ons. There is only so much the DM can track, and only so much that the players can track. The game works best when everyone knows the rules and the players understand each others' characters. The more expansion packs you have in the game, the less the group as a whole will have a grasp on the mechanics.

4. Do everything you can to speed up combat. This is another thing our group does not do well. We've been struggling with it for years and I think it mostly comes down to people getting bored when it's not their turn, and that causes them to tune out, and then when it finally is their turn they are not prepared. There are a lot of great suggestions above that we should adopt, like using a timer, limiting meta-gaming in the middle of battle, and so on.

That being said, there is an aspect to large parties that you can't get around: the battle situation changes drastically from the beginning of the round to the end as people move around and enemies fall, so there is only so much that a player can prepare for while they wait for their turn. There is only so much you can do, but making sure players don't tune out in the middle of it really is key. Do your best to keep the pace snappy.

5. Handle some stuff offline. Leveling, for sure, should happen via email, as should dividing up and selling loot at the end of a module. Even mid-module, there are some RP aspects that you might be able to do via email instead of during the game session. Players, too, can use the downtime to have their planning discussions. This is more important if your group meets infrequently as we do. Game time is precious.

6. Have a caller that speaks for the party. This will probably happen naturally, but if not make sure one gets appointed. It keeps things moving and limits bickering.

7. Don't split the party into two groups that go off on their own. If you are tempted to split the party, don't. If splitting the party seems like the best answer, don't. Just don't. We have had a group split imposed on us before and every agonizing minute while we are doing nothing waiting for the other group really, really sucks. As I said in #5, game time is precious. Don't waste it. If they players want to split themselves up, then that's their lousy decision and they can suffer the consequences. But you as the DM should never design an encounter that intentionally splits them into separate mini-parties that you have to bounce between for more than 10 or 15 minutes.

8. Most importantly, just remember that everyone is there to have fun. There will be side conversations, a little meta-gaming talk, tangents, and so on. The larger a group gets, the more chatter there is by nature so don't try to fight it. Just nudge the group now and again to keep things somewhat on track. If a few aspects of the game slow down but people are having fun being together, well, that's OK in my book. I will always choose "fun" over "ruthless efficiency". :)

[killem2]

I have ran as many as 9 characters among 7 players. Come july, it'll be a solid 8.


My tips:

- Make dungeon rooms and hall ways when you know there is going to be combat there at least half as hide as the entire party. (so 8 mediums = 40ft /2 20 ft wide)

Rooms should be at least 20ft, unless they are storage areas those don't matter.


- Combat, use trackers, and ask for rolls in order of the table clockwise. Maintain order.

- For battles, I like to play out the battles in my spare time to see how it rolls. Focus on area effects.

- Traps are really important too. I usually have a ratio of 1:5 of traps they have no chance in hell of avoiding. It seems almost like metagaming from the DM side, but when you have a party of this size, the action economy is slanted.

- When exploring, just focus on the one person who wants to be the leader or who is searching for traps. If you draw out a battle map while you are doing this, just use one miniature to represent the party for now.

^^^^ However this does not mean that person calls all the shots. It seems like an elementary thing to do, but people need to acknowledge when they have something to say. its about keeping order.

If this were a real life adventurer you wouldn't have people tripping over each other to get a word in.

[GeekGirl]

In general If I have a group bigger then four I will just go around the table round robin style and see what wants to do. I'll run it like initiative, people can delay actions, ready things. That way everyone know when they are getting their chance to do things, and when the other players are if they need to know.

[bcg737]

I pay in an 8 player group, and when we do split up, we tend to go into groups.

The DM does something unique when we are split up that keeps things fresh, he plays it like a movie.

So he will do a "scene" for 2-3 mins with one pair, pause the scene, and go to the next group, like a movie switching scenes and then returning to progress the scene a little more. It tends to keep things interesting and keep things moving.

[Jett Midknight]

I pay in an 8 player group, and when we do split up, we tend to go into groups.

The DM does something unique when we are split up that keeps things fresh, he plays it like a movie.

So he will do a "scene" for 2-3 mins with one pair, pause the scene, and go to the next group, like a movie switching scenes and then returning to progress the scene a little more. It tends to keep things interesting and keep things moving.

Pretty much this. Splitting the party in going to happen eventually in a group that large, mainly because everyone is going to want to do something different. Just make sure you switch back and forth every so often so no one gets too bored.

[killem2]

Pretty much this. Splitting the party in going to happen eventually in a group that large, mainly because everyone is going to want to do something different. Just make sure you switch back and forth every so often so no one gets too bored.

See, I want my group to split so I can make more interesting encounters but when I ask what they want to do before exploring stats, its full on follow the leader lol.

[Jett Midknight]

See, I want my group to split so I can make more interesting encounters but when I ask what they want to do before exploring stats, its full on follow the leader lol.

Haha, in this case use some creative DMing.

"While exploring the corridor a iron wall slams shut cutting off the party"

[Slipperychicken]

See, I want my group to split so I can make more interesting encounters but when I ask what they want to do before exploring stats, its full on follow the leader lol.

They are wise, for they will gain more play-time from sticking together, childish as the term "play-time" sounds.

[JusticeZero]

Try to get players to pick up some of the GM bookkeeping stuff, like initiatives and whatnot. Also, try to encourage interparty RP more. Four people having a debate about the wonders of Pelor while others fuss with a skill check are four players that aren't asking you questions at the moment.

[Sugashane]

Oh, these are gold!:smallbiggrin: Thank you. I'm definitely going to enforce the minute/round rule once my players have the hang of it.

Glad I could help. :smallsmile:




Going on that optimizing monsters idea, is there anywhere I could find a mummy with optimized level progression for Blood of Vol cleric? I plan to have it/her as a recurring opponent.

I do it in two different ways. In humans, the average base stat is 10-11, and the max is 18, right? So unless it is something like an undead with zero CON or an animal that has to have a 1-2 INT, I can add up to 8 to an ability score, as the Monster Manual is the average for each monster.

My personal preference? I add class levels to my monsters quite a bit. Even mindless ones can take a level or two of fighter and a feat. Or a level of barbarian and have a persisted rage (I count that as 2 levels). You don't have to get in depth and add spellcaster levels, but adding two spells per level onto those who can cast spells can add a bit of difficulty.

Even if is says "2/day" just make it "4/day." I had some very veteran PCs (been playing since AD&D) and they could metagame because they had the bulk of a lot of monsters abilities already memorized. So it also cut down on metagaming. They were pretty mad when a Nymph 7/Simple Druid 12/BattleDancer 1 (removed base Hit Dies) and a number of weak minions kicked their butts and all of them were level 16 I think. Too bad, they thought it was just a normal nymph, so they instigated the battle without even having their weapons drawn, and not one melee combatant had quick draw. lol