ToB and mundane martial classes

[Man on Fire]

I was thinking: Lets say I would give every martial class acess to two menauvers schools - theycan pick up any manuver or stance from it, their progression in gettign them and recovery system is the same as one of ToB classes (C, S and W marks shows which one). It would look like this for example:

Barbarian: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon (W)
Cavalier: White Raven, Devoted Spirit (C)
Fighter: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon (W)
Hexblade: Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand (W)
Monk: Setting Sun, Tiger Claw (S)
Ninja: Shadow Hand, Setting Sun (S)
Paladin: Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit (C)
Ranger: Tiger Claw, Desert Wind (C)
Rogue: Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind (S)
Samurai: White Raven, Diamond Mind (C)
Swasbuckler: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind (S)

Now, few questions:

1) How would that change the game balance? Woudl any of the classes move a tier or even two up?
2) How owuld it affect the tiers on which each class is if I would give them manuver as noted above but take away any divine or arcane castign they might have?
3) Is that choice of schools climatic for each class? If not what would you suggest instead?

[SciChronic]

1. many martial classes would go up a tier, or go to to the top of their respective tiers. that said if all of them go to the top their spot essentially stays the same.
2. removing spell access would drop them further than maneuvers bring them up. The majority of the tier list is versatility, followed by how well they can do their specialized job compared to others doing the same job. remocal of spells includes many utility spells that help counteract many magical and mundane problems.
3.classes that gain access to tiger claw, but don't synergize well with TWF (barbarian for example) suffer as many tiger claw maneuvers rely on TWF to make them great. Rogue suffers from having Daimond mind as he best maneuvers (save counters, insightful strikes, nightmare blades)rely on having a good concentration check, a skill the rogue is untrained in.

Thats all i can see atm, but its 6AM for me and i haven't slept yet.

[Krazzman]

Barbarian: Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon (W)
Cavalier: White Raven, Devoted Spirit (C)
Fighter: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon (W)
Hexblade: Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand (W)
Monk: Setting Sun, Tiger Claw (S)
Ninja: Shadow Hand, Setting Sun (S)
Paladin: Iron Heart, Devoted Spirit (C)
Ranger: Tiger Claw, Desert Wind (C)
Rogue: Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind (S)
Samurai: White Raven, Diamond Mind (C)
Swasbuckler: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind (S)

I would more make a Choose two from this list for the fighter and Tiger Claw or Iron Heart and Stone Dragon for the Barbarian. Ranger having the ability to choose between Tiger Claw, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind.


Now, few questions:

1) How would that change the game balance? Woudl any of the classes move a tier or even two up?

Yes, they could get up to Tier 3 depending on Discipline.


2) How owuld it affect the tiers on which each class is if I would give them manuver as noted above but take away any divine or arcane castign they might have?

There are martial variatns for paladin and Ranger in CWar. Just let them choose 1 Discipline from a list of maybe 3 disciplines.


3) Is that choice of schools climatic for each class? If not what would you suggest instead?

I mentioned already, choices for certain classes as some aren't fitting depending on character. I would probably leave the Hexblade out. Or give the ones with Casting just one Discipline (again choosen from a list fitting the class).

[Diovid]

There are martial variatns for paladin and Ranger in CWar. Just let them choose 1 Discipline from a list of maybe 3 disciplines.
I hope you mean Complete Champion, not Complete Warrior.

[Man on Fire]

3.classes that gain access to tiger claw, but don't synergize well with TWF (barbarian for example) suffer as many tiger claw maneuvers rely on TWF to make them great. Rogue suffers from having Daimond mind as he best maneuvers (save counters, insightful strikes, nightmare blades)rely on having a good concentration check, a skill the rogue is untrained in.


Maybe then I could switch it to be Monk: Settign Sun, Diamond Mind and Rogue: Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw? And give Swasbuckler Concentration as class skill?


I would more make a Choose two from this list for the fighter and Tiger Claw or Iron Heart and Stone Dragon for the Barbarian. Ranger having the ability to choose between Tiger Claw, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind.[/quote[

Interestind idea, through I don't really get why Ranger should get Diamond Mind.

[quote]I mentioned already, choices for certain classes as some aren't fitting depending on character. I would probably leave the Hexblade out. Or give the ones with Casting just one Discipline (again choosen from a list fitting the class).

Hmm, so maybe:
Paladin: Iron Heart or Devoted Spirit
Ranger: Tiger Claw or Desert Wind
Or Martial variants that get both schools but no spells?

[Darrin]

3) Is that choice of schools climatic for each class? If not what would you suggest instead?

Barbarian should be Iron Heart and Stone Dragon.
Paladin should be White Raven and Devoted Spirit.

Everything else looks good.

[BowStreetRunner]

What if you allowed each class to pick two schools? For some classes, the list of options would be small - maybe only 3 schools. For others, there would be a greater variety of choices, maybe 5 or 6 schools to select from. Once a character chooses his schools, they cannot be changed.

This way you could have one group of Paladins who are Iron Heart / Devoted Spirit, another who are White Raven / Devoted Spirit, and even a third who use Iron Heart / White Raven. Each is thematically slightly different in their focus, giving players a bit more flexibility.

[Krazzman]

I hope you mean Complete Champion, not Complete Warrior.
No. I believe the rules for that were in Complete Warrior. I could be mistaken, yes but still gonna stay with Complete Warrior.


Interestind idea, through I don't really get why Ranger should get Diamond Mind.

Diamond mind mainly because of Concentration stuff and spot things. Just seems like a focus for me. I could be mistaken but I think a few of those Strikes there actually work with any weapon and could be used together with archery in some way. But since there is a lack of an archery discipline (barring Homebrew from this forum) I could very well be mistaken here.

EDIT:
BowStreetRunner actually had the same idea as I had but wrote it down clearer.

[BowStreetRunner]

I hope you mean Complete Champion, not Complete Warrior.

Both CC and CW actually have ACFs that replace spellcasting for Paladins and Rangers.


...Srikes there actually work with any weapon and could be used together with archery in some way. But since there is a lack of an archery discipline (barring Homebrew from this forum) I could very well be mistaken here...

In fact, very few ToB maneuver or stances are designed to work outside of melee. The main exceptions are usually thrown weapons. I have built a couple of ranged characters that take advantage of maneuvers or stances, but it is very hard to make this work.

[Prime32]

Dragon Shaman: Desert Wind, White Raven (S; Desert Wind damage type matches your breath weapon)
Duskblade: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind (W)
Knight: Stone Dragon, White Raven (C)
Marshal: Devoted Spirit, White Raven (S)
Soulborn: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart (W; refresh all maneuvers when you reassign essentia)
Soulknife: Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (W; changing stance charges your psychic strike)

Duskblade gets Devoted Spirit for added Red-Mage-ness and because it can already use shields.

Both of the soulknife's disciplines synergise pretty well with its abilities (e.g. expend psionic focus to take 15 on the Concentration check for a Diamond Mind maneuver), which it really needs, though you could also make a case for Shadow Hand.

[Man on Fire]

Dragon Shaman: Desert Wind, White Raven (S; Desert Wind damage type matches your breath weapon)
Duskblade: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind (W)
Knight: Stone Dragon, White Raven (C)
Marshal: Devoted Spirit, White Raven (S)
Soulborn: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart (W; refresh all maneuvers when you reassign essentia)
Soulknife: Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (W; changing stance charges your psychic strike)

Duskblade gets Devoted Spirit for added Red-Mage-ness and because it can already use shields.

Both of the soulknife's disciplines synergise pretty well with its abilities (e.g. expend psionic focus to take 15 on the Concentration check for a Diamond Mind maneuver), which it really needs, though you could also make a case for Shadow Hand.

I'll be honest, I don't get what's the point of giving Dragon Shaman or Soulborn (of which I know nothing about) and Duskblade (who is already tier 3) maneuvers. Care to explain?

Bu that reminds me about Scout...Desert Wind and Shadow Hand (S)?

Maybe a bit updated list, taking the suggestions already mentioned in consideration:

Following classes gets to choose two out of three schools, once the choice is made, it cannot be changed. Each selected school's key skill is added to the class skill list:

Barbarian: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw (W)
Cavalier: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven (C)
Fighter: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon (W)
Knight: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, White Raven (C)
Marshal: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, White Raven (S)
Monk: Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw (S)
Ninja: Desert Wind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand (S)
Rogue: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw (S)
Samurai: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, White Raven (C)
Soulknife: Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw (W; changing stance charges your psychic strike)
Swasbuckler: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (S)


Folowing classes gets to choose one school ut of three or two out of three if they are Martial Variant (M). once the choice is made, it cannot be changed. Each selected school's key skill is added to the class skill list:

Hexblade: Iron heart, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon (W)
Paladin: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven (C) M
Ranger: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (C) M

[Diovid]

No. I believe the rules for that were in Complete Warrior. I could be mistaken, yes but still gonna stay with Complete Warrior.

Both CC and CW actually have ACFs that replace spellcasting for Paladins and Rangers.
I'm aware that both CC and CW have ACFs that replace spellcasting, however the ones from CC are generally considered to be much better.

[Prime32]

I'll be honest, I don't get what's the point of giving Dragon Shaman or Soulborn (of which I know nothing about) and Duskblade (who is already tier 3) maneuvers. Care to explain?Duskblade probably doesn't need it, true. Dragon Shaman is basically a marshal with a mediocre breath weapon and less dipping potential, and Soulborn is a poorly executed incarnum version of a paladin (as in, a fighter who takes incarnum feats is better at it) that can be any of LG/CG/LE/CE.

[Man on Fire]

Duskblade probably doesn't need it, true. Dragon Shaman is basically a marshal with a mediocre breath weapon and less dipping potential, and Soulborn is a poorly executed incarnum version of a paladin (as in, a fighter who takes incarnum feats is better at it) that can be any of LG/CG/LE/CE.

I will need to look into them before applying maneuvers I think, I guess Soulborn is in Magic of Incarnum but what source is Dragon Shaman in?

[BowStreetRunner]

...what source is Dragon Shaman in?

Players Handbook II

[Lateral]

I definitely agree with Krazzman, above- Fighters should get to pick any two. After all, the class is meant to represent a basic martial combat chassis able to function in any such role depending on how one builds it; as such, it would fit in with the theme of the class to allow them to freely pick their schools.

[Man on Fire]

I definitely agree with Krazzman, above- Fighters should get to pick any two. After all, the class is meant to represent a basic martial combat chassis able to function in any such role depending on how one builds it; as such, it would fit in with the theme of the class to allow them to freely pick their schools.

Okay, let it be.

Following classes gets to choose two out of three schools, once the choice is made, it cannot be changed. Each selected school's key skill is added to the class skill list:

Barbarian: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw (W)
Cavalier: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven (C)
Dragon Shaman: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, White Raven (S; Desert Wind damage type matches your breath weapon)
Fighter: Any Two (W)
Knight: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, White Raven (C)
Marshal: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, White Raven (S)
Monk: Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw (S)
Ninja: Desert Wind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand (S)
Rogue: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw (S)
Samurai: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, White Raven (C)
Soulborn: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon (W; refresh all maneuvers when you reassign essentia)
Soulknife: Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw (W; changing stance charges your psychic strike)
Swasbuckler: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (S)


Folowing classes gets to choose one school ut of three or two out of three if they are Martial Variant (M). once the choice is made, it cannot be changed. Each selected school's key skill is added to the class skill list:

Hexblade: Iron Heart, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon (W)
Paladin: Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, White Raven (C) M
Ranger: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (C) M

[Prime32]

...I should have said something for dragon shaman that you can project a draconic aura as part of the action of entering a stance.